What About Black Soul?

[Spee]

Black soul music has all but died....now we have that nasty gangsta rap, hip hop crap.....

The day the music died.....it wasnt when Buddy died

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Sorry but I have to disagree. Great music lives forever, whether you enjoy it or not, whether you appreciate it or not.

Black soul music from the classic soul era is fantastic music and it will live forever.

Other music like rap and hip-hip, while originating from black soul, has evolved into a completely different genre. Some of it is great music too, and will live forever.

I remember listening to a radio interview with the daughter of the late great John Lee Hooker, done shortly after he passed. She said that she and her father talked about living and dying many times. He said he was never worried about dying, because his music would live on forever.

How more right could he have been?

[Thomas_Merton]

Alexis Corner had a fair bit to do with the development of old school R'n B as well

as Jack Dupree, Cryil Davies and Long John Baldry.

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None of whom would deny the debt they owed to the Black influences - coming as they all did out of this black music tradition.

Sonny Boy Williamson played with all of the above.

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Aye also he played with Brian Auger and Mr James Page.

The biggest influence would have to be (IMO) Robert Johnson though.

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Don't deny Robert Johnson's or Elmore James' or a host of other legendary black performers' influence, but what distinguished Sonny Boy was that he actually came over and played with the lads:

You got to help me, baby.

I can't do it all by myself.

You know if you don't help me, darling,

I'll have to find myself somebody else.

The topic title was Black soul......but many have mentioned white artists....and even R&R's......

Black soul music has all but died....now we have that nasty gangsta rap, hip hop crap.....

The day the music died.....it wasnt when Buddy died

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I'm not sure what you mean by R&R. Is it what Americans would call Rhythm and Blues (R&? *(nevermind, I see now that you mean Rock and Roll, a catchphrase that I never use ).

Many people have the same lament (that real soul music is dead). I think the golden age has passed, but there are new incarnations. But if you don't have an open mind, you will never know. Perhaps you actually need soul to recognize it in its newest guise before it is canonized.

What about The Fugees, Lauren Hill, Kanye West, Public Enemy, John Legend, Alicia Keys, India Arie, to name a few.

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You got it, Cat, you got the soul - I especially like Alicia Keys - that girl has so much talent.

[kat]

I'm trying to remember if Sonny Boy Williamson is this amazing blues singer whose name I can't remember .... a real sweet, smooth voice ....

[chonabot]

  I'm trying to remember if Sonny Boy Williamson is this amazing blues singer whose name I can't remember .... a real sweet, smooth voice ....

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His voice was great Kat , but smoothness was not one of it's features.

Kind of gruff and wailing at the same time. As Mr Merton said , he done taught our white boys how to boogie woogie.

[kat]

ok, so the guy I'm thinking of .... little johnnie something ... or brown, or .... I don't know. This is what happens when you move too much - you lose track of music and albums

[mickmac]

I think you mean Sonny Terry and Brownie Magee.

But who could ever forget the fabulous voice of Darryl Banks when he belted out "Our Love is in the pocket", ( he was shot in the throat by a policeman in 1968), or JJ Barnes, the man that had Marvin Gaye so scared he threatned to quit Motown if Berry Gordy did not kill off his career. Another artist that was a major influence on the Beatles was Chuck Jackson, their favourite singer in the early sixties. Listen to some of Spyder Turners tracks, this is the man Elvis said he wanted to sound like.

There has just been a major 6 week series on soul music and its influence broardcast on BBC 2. If anyone in the Uk has taped it and is coming over to LOS, if they would be kind enough to lend me the tapes I would get them copied and return the originals to you.

I don't know if the BBC are going to put it out on DVD but by the sounds of things it will be worth picking up if they do.

[Spee]

  ok, so the guy I'm thinking of .... little johnnie something ... or brown, or ....  I don't know.  This is what happens when you move too much - you lose track of music and albums 

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Many good blues resources out there, but here are a couple of the better ones I've come across:

Bill Wyman's Blues Odyssey, by Bill Wyman, ISBN: 0789480468 (nice hardcover with glossy pages); very authentic research on the history and development of the delta blues music, the people of its roots and their travels from the country to the cities.

The Big Book of Blues, by Robert Santelli ISBN: 0141001453; more very authentic research with over 600 biographies covering the early delta music, all the greats of the 40's, 50's and 60's, to the British blues stars like Clapton and Mayall, and the next generation like Taj Mahal, Keb' Mo', Robert Cray, etc.

[kayo]

Wow to say that James Brown never grew... I don't know much about music, can't read it, but JB's music did progress from his gospel roots to reshaping the sound of his band twice.  The band's shake up in 1970 brought about a sound called  funk, funk falls within soul music.  Holding up the Temps accomplishments should not diminish JB the guy was a perfectionist.  He didn't cheat his fans even if they couldn't tell the difference he insisted the music be as tight as he envisioned it. 

edit: added cool daddy shades emoticon

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Fair enough.

Actually you are right... The "comparing the two thing" I`ve got myself into is not really viable, and both have their own merits...

I`m still going to respond to chownah though (with a smile)... This is fun!

[kayo]

You are all just a bunch of HONKIES!!!!!!!

        JAMES BROWN

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Er... Apart from a few albums back in the early days, which he keps on performing 50 years on... what`s he evr done for the progression, development, originality or the general well'being of soul... Call us all the names you like, at least we know our music a little better than by watching khrap like mtv (which does an excellent job of catering, feeding, and generally encouraging non'honkies (i`m not getting into Scampies P.C. thread here), vh1, and rocky 4.

He`s fun to listen to, for sure, but jeez, he never grew out of it.

Now, take the temptations, for example... Famous for, amongst other things, "talking `bout my girl, my girl, my girl...". Granted, a little chesy but great song... `point being, not a decade later, they were singing things like Ball of Confusion, Excellent, heavy blend of soul, with a tinge of the early days of disco, "and the band played on", or c`mon, is there really anyone who doiesn`t get shivers of joy listening to Papa was a Rolling Stone, "I said, mama, people talk about papa .... "

or how about the Undisputed Truth.. Smiling faces, sometimes...

Now we got soul

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James Brown is The God Father of Soul. Don't take my word for it go as Mick Jagger or any other R&B icon about James Brown....and then ask them about the Temptations!!! hahahahahaha

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Being such a slow day on TV.com, I did some research.....

Along with the Supremes, the Temptations were the best Motown act of the 1960s, achieving a unique performance style and a constancy of excellent hit records. The Stones have evidently enjoyed the Temptations' music, for they have consistently paid them homage throughout their career. In 1967, their Flowers album included a discarded cover of their hit My Girl. More spectacularly, the Stones recorded excellent covers of the Temps' Ain't Too Proud to Beg and Just My Imagination in 1974 and 1978, the latter becoming an unqualified Stones classic, played regularly on the Stones' 1978 and 1981-82 tour. Though they did not record it, in 1994 the Stones reworked a version of I Can't Get Next to You, which they performed sporadically throughout the Voodoo Lounge tour.[/u]

the Temptations were R&B/pop bands that the Stones respected and had affection for in the 1960s and beyond. The Stones recorded a cover of the Temptations' My Girl, which was written by Smokey Robinson (and released in 1967 on the Flowers album).

Source> Stones influences

Kendricks had the high, gliding tenor that almost went into falsetto; Ruffin had the coarser, more emotive style. Ruffin would give the group's most passioned, even angst-ridden, performance on "(I Know) I'm Losing You"; his delivery was closely studied by Rod Stewart (who covered that classic) and, most likely, Mick Jagger, who would eventually cover "Ain't Too Proud To Beg" with The Stones.

source>Temptation Bio

La/Di/Dah!!!

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Well Mr. La/Di/Dah, Thanks for the interesting viewpoint and informative links. I did a bit more research on the links you listed and it seems to me that the Stones liked the same music that the Tempts recorded....but this is probably indicates that they liked the songs written by Smokey Robinson, Norman Whitfield, and Barrett Strom more than it indicates that the Stones liked the Tempts style of performance. Just listen to the two bands and its clear (at least I think its clear) that the styles are quite dissimilar. My specific mention was of Mick Jaggar's attitutde towards James Brown and The Tempts. The following is a cut and paste from another page of your "Stones influences" link: http://www.timeisonourside.com/STSoul.html

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"

JAMES BROWN (1933- )

Mick and Keith were especially fervent admirers of their soul temporaries when the Stones started out. Though the band never recorded his material, as a performer Mick was particularly enamored of Georgia-born James Brown. Several of his moves were nicked by Mick in those early days (James Brown and the Stones played on the same bill in October 1964 for a TV special recorded in California). More importantly, Brown's more general ability to establish an awesome, energetic stage presence, has been something that Mick has learned and built upon. Just on that basis, Brown has been a tremendous influence on the Stones. "

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If you look at James Brown's performance style, then Mick Jaggar's performance style, and the the Temptations' performance style....I think it is clear that Mick Jaggar drew much more heavily from James Brown than the Temptations...and the same can probably more or less be said about the Stones overall.

Thanks again for the great links and interesting perspecitive.

Lo/Di/Doh

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Well Mr. Lo/Di/Doh !!!

The only problem with this discussion is that there is such a wealth of wonderful information on the web about all of these great artists but my net time is limited, and I do enjoy being silly on tv.com instead of trawling through endless sites and links..

So how do you rate the supremes influences on Loso. (LOL.) ?

Alright, alright... You win, and admittedly, I`ve learnt a fair bit more about ajames brown, whom I did not know too well prior to this discussion...

Good on you chownah!

Ciao, Don Tof.

[aughie]

Many people have the same lament (that real soul music is dead). I think the golden age has passed, but there are new incarnations. But if you don't have an open mind, you will never know. Perhaps you actually need soul to recognize it in its newest guise before it is canonized.

I think Mary J. Blige has a touch of an Aretha sound to her voice and style.

edit: Jackie Wilson's Doggin' Round is a great song and it was on the B-side.

Edited July 4, 2005 by aughie