Red-Shirts Blamed For Gunfights, Bomb Attacks

[bubba]

this film is bound to be aired non-stop on Thai TV channels under government control...

a link would indeed be nice.

I saw that programme as well. Here it your link:

They also showed the video that has been circulating of the "man in black" with the AK47 firing at the troops.

Here is a video link for that:

We have also seen the video of a man who had his brains blown out from behind the direction of the troops, who was later paraded as a martyr on stage, although I see that this video has been repeatedly flagged by someone and taken down by YouTube. Someone has posted it again and it's still there so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIDWn6ZBFY

What I have not yet seen is a single video or still photo of an Army soldier with his weapon leveled and firing into the crowd, apart from the rubber bullets weapons. Gievn the density of the crowd, had even one soldier opened up with an automatic weapon into the crowd, the casualties would have been massive.

The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protestor. The same cannot be said of the other side, who will today be parading their martyrs through the streets of Bangkok.

yes thats it

thank you very much

its not pleasant but despite the red leaders claims to the contrary it does prove that there were elements in the red faction that were firing live ammo.

It would certainly appear that way. I would encourage anyone who can locate videos of soldiers actually shooting bullets at protestors to post them here.

There is definitely an even more violent streak present with the red shirts. Here is the red shirt leader in Udon saying that they should hang key government figures. He goes on to say that Prem is no different from Saddam and he should be hung.

http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews...D=9530000050791

I am very seriously becoming more and more concerned that if these people actually take control of Thailand, things could become very, very unpleasant.

[vicco]

[quot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIDWn6ZBFY

What I have not yet seen is a single video or still photo of an Army soldier with his weapon leveled and firing into the crowd, apart from the rubber bullets weapons. Gievn the density of the crowd, had even one soldier opened up with an automatic weapon into the crowd, the casualties would have been massive.

The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protestor. The same cannot be said of the other side, who will today be parading their martyrs through the streets of Bangkok.

Late yesterday on France 24 TV channel there was a video shot by a French journalist showing a couple of soldiers--one standing, one kneeling. They were firing directly into the crowd. As soon as they spotted the camera, they stopped immediately and withdrew. They fired quite a few rounds each (maybe 5 or 6) from M16's and there were not defending themselves from imminent danger---The journalist's comment was that the army statements about only firing into the air were clearly untrue. I have not seen this video anywhere else....but it has been shown several times on French TV and just this morning the scrolling news tape on France 24 is still making reference to it. If you get France 24....go take a look. It is pretty obvious both sides are being a lot less than candid about their activities.

The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protesto......

Looks like they lost a lot..... there's plenty of dead protesters.....

This is not a win/lose situation....surely it is a lose/lose situation?

[tgw]

yes, I finally found the video of the guy whose brains had been blown out as well.

RIP, I feel sad for him.

I saved the vid incase they take it down again.

On the vid, the scene is not clearly seen, we don't see who shoots, but there is a dark-clothed man (looks like a uniform, could be a policeman) coming out of a shop, looking unsure and rushed and holding something in his hands - might have been a semi automatic.

He steps out of the camera field and a second later, the guy with the flag turns to that direction (probably because he heard something) and receives directly a shot into his forehead. I believe it was fired upwards.

Immediately after that, some 4 or 5 people are maintaining somebody on the ground.

Only speculations are possible on what happened.

I would say the policeman or soldier coming out of the shop was assaulted, and he somehow used his weapon to defend himself. I don't know if he intended to shoot in the air or at one of the attackers, but in any case he probably missed and the flag bearer caught the shot which was probably not aimed at him...

I just watched it again several times, it might also have happened totally differently.

The dark-clad guy could also have been a paramedic.

Will we ever know?

the shots are cleary heard: bam... bam.bam... bam

could also have been an out-of-control resident sniping away from his balcony.

Sad to see a life put to an end so brutally, and especially in vain. What a waste.

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[blackman]

this film is bound to be aired non-stop on Thai TV channels under government control...

a link would indeed be nice.

I saw that programme as well. Here it your link:

They also showed the video that has been circulating of the "man in black" with the AK47 firing at the troops.

Here is a video link for that:

We have also seen the video of a man who had his brains blown out from behind the direction of the troops, who was later paraded as a martyr on stage, although I see that this video has been repeatedly flagged by someone and taken down by YouTube. Someone has posted it again and it's still there so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIDWn6ZBFY

What I have not yet seen is a single video or still photo of an Army soldier with his weapon leveled and firing into the crowd, apart from the rubber bullets weapons. Gievn the density of the crowd, had even one soldier opened up with an automatic weapon into the crowd, the casualties would have been massive.

The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protestor. The same cannot be said of the other side, who will today be parading their martyrs through the streets of Bangkok.

yes thats it

thank you very much

its not pleasant but despite the red leaders claims to the contrary it does prove that there were elements in the red faction that were firing live ammo.

It would certainly appear that way. I would encourage anyone who can locate videos of soldiers actually shooting bullets at protestors to post them here.

There is definitely an even more violent streak present with the red shirts. Here is the red shirt leader in Udon saying that they should hang key government figures. He goes on to say that Prem is no different from Saddam and he should be hung.

http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews...D=9530000050791

I am very seriously becoming more and more concerned that if these people actually take control of Thailand, things could become very, very unpleasant.

i think they should send all the video evidence taken during the conflict to an accredited/acceptable by both sides independant source in a neutral country and have it forensically analysed

that will surely stop any speculation about who did what and to whom?

[anotherpeter]

yes, I finally found the video of the guy whose brains had been blown out as well.

RIP, I feel sad for him.

I saved the vid incase they take it down again.

On the vid, the scene is not clearly seen, we don't see who shoots, but there is a dark-clothed man (looks like a uniform, could be a policeman) coming out of a shop, looking unsure and rushed and holding something in his hands - might have been a semi automatic.

He steps out of the camera field and a second later, the guy with the flag turns to that direction (probably because he heard something) and receives directly a shot into his forehead. I believe it was fired upwards.

Immediately after that, some 4 or 5 people are maintaining somebody on the ground.

Only speculations are possible on what happened.

I would say the policeman or soldier coming out of the shop was assaulted, and he somehow used his weapon to defend himself. I don't know if he intended to shoot in the air or at one of the attackers, but in any case he probably missed and the flag bearer caught the shot which was probably not aimed at him...

The guy that came out of the shop definitely wasn't a soldier, and certainly didn't look "unsure". He *may* have been a policeman, but it wouldn't have been a policeman involved on the government side, with him not being dressed in riot gear.

If he was the shooter, and he was government affiliated, where is he now? As you said, it looked like someone was being held on the ground.

[anotherpeter]

Late yesterday on France 24 TV channel there was a video shot by a French journalist showing a couple of soldiers--one standing, one kneeling. They were firing directly into the crowd. As soon as they spotted the camera, they stopped immediately and withdrew. They fired quite a few rounds each (maybe 5 or 6) from M16's and there were not defending themselves from imminent danger---The journalist's comment was that the army statements about only firing into the air were clearly untrue. I have not seen this video anywhere else....but it has been shown several times on French TV and just this morning the scrolling news tape on France 24 is still making reference to it. If you get France 24....go take a look. It is pretty obvious both sides are being a lot less than candid about their activities.

The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protesto......

Looks like they lost a lot..... there's plenty of dead protesters.....

This is not a win/lose situation....surely it is a lose/lose situation?

The red leaders and particularly Thaksin can win with violence, because there is more pressure for the government to step down.

And a quote from yesterday:

THE NATION: "We will carry on with appropriate measures so our (red shirts') losses will be worthwhile," Nattawut said.

[bubba]

i think they should send all the video evidence taken during the conflict to an accredited/acceptable by both sides independant source in a neutral country and have it forensically analysed

that will surely stop any speculation about who did what and to whom?

That is exactly what a government spokesman suggested last night. They intend to set up an independent investigation of the deaths, to include foreign experts. They also invited UDD to be on the investigation panel and fully involved in the investigation. It sounds to me like the government has some very strong cards to play here, but they haven't shown their hand yet. The only problem is, I think it will be far too late once the conclusions come back. And depending on who is on power then, the results may never see the light of day.

[bubba]

/b]The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protesto......

Looks like they lost a lot..... there's plenty of dead protesters....

Indeed they did lose a lot because of that. The question is: who shot them and who would have something to gain by the deaths?

Late yesterday on France 24 TV channel there was a video shot by a French journalist showing a couple of soldiers--one standing, one kneeling. They were firing directly into the crowd. As soon as they spotted the camera, they stopped immediately and withdrew. They fired quite a few rounds each (maybe 5 or 6) from M16's and there were not defending themselves from imminent danger---The journalist's comment was that the army statements about only firing into the air were clearly untrue. I have not seen this video anywhere else....but it has been shown several times on French TV and just this morning the scrolling news tape on France 24 is still making reference to it. If you get France 24....go take a look. It is pretty obvious both sides are being a lot less than candid about their activities.

That would be a very interesting video to see, if only it were available. As it was publicly shown, it will no doubt surface at some point if what you say is true. Might the video be somewhere in the France 24 website? If it is, please post it here.

[tgw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIDWn6ZBFY

What I have not yet seen is a single video or still photo of an Army soldier with his weapon leveled and firing into the crowd, apart from the rubber bullets weapons. Gievn the density of the crowd, had even one soldier opened up with an automatic weapon into the crowd, the casualties would have been massive.

The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protestor. The same cannot be said of the other side, who will today be parading their martyrs through the streets of Bangkok.

Late yesterday on France 24 TV channel there was a video shot by a French journalist showing a couple of soldiers--one standing, one kneeling. They were firing directly into the crowd. As soon as they spotted the camera, they stopped immediately and withdrew. They fired quite a few rounds each (maybe 5 or 6) from M16's and there were not defending themselves from imminent danger---The journalist's comment was that the army statements about only firing into the air were clearly untrue. I have not seen this video anywhere else....but it has been shown several times on French TV and just this morning the scrolling news tape on France 24 is still making reference to it. If you get France 24....go take a look. It is pretty obvious both sides are being a lot less than candid about their activities.

The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protesto......

Looks like they lost a lot..... there's plenty of dead protesters.....

This is not a win/lose situation....surely it is a lose/lose situation?

yes, I saved that vid as well.

Quality is very bad though.

At the end of France 24 footage there are indeed 3 soldiers shooting directly at something in front of them. 2 with M16 and one with another weapon I didn't clearly recognize, it was a bullpup assault rifle, maybe a Tavor 21.

To be fair, this occured minutes after seven soldiers were killed by a grenade.

The bodies can be seen being dragged away by other soldiers in the video, so the firing soldiers might well have fired to defend themselves.

On the other hand, they indeed stop when they spot the camera.

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[tonywebster]

/b]The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protesto......

Looks like they lost a lot..... there's plenty of dead protesters....

Indeed they did lose a lot because of that. The question is: who shot them and who would have something to gain by the deaths?

Late yesterday on France 24 TV channel there was a video shot by a French journalist showing a couple of soldiers--one standing, one kneeling. They were firing directly into the crowd. As soon as they spotted the camera, they stopped immediately and withdrew. They fired quite a few rounds each (maybe 5 or 6) from M16's and there were not defending themselves from imminent danger---The journalist's comment was that the army statements about only firing into the air were clearly untrue. I have not seen this video anywhere else....but it has been shown several times on French TV and just this morning the scrolling news tape on France 24 is still making reference to it. If you get France 24....go take a look. It is pretty obvious both sides are being a lot less than candid about their activities.

That would be a very interesting video to see, if only it were available. As it was publicly shown, it will no doubt surface at some point if what you say is true. Might the video be somewhere in the France 24 website? If it is, please post it here.

this video is available, you can find it in general topics in a locked thread.

In fact here it is http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

edit to change link

Edited April 12, 2010 by tonywebster

[blackman]

i think they should send all the video evidence taken during the conflict to an accredited/acceptable by both sides independant source in a neutral country and have it forensically analysed

that will surely stop any speculation about who did what and to whom?

That is exactly what a government spokesman suggested last night. They intend to set up an independent investigation of the deaths, to include foreign experts. They also invited UDD to be on the investigation panel and fully involved in the investigation. It sounds to me like the government has some very strong cards to play here, but they haven't shown their hand yet. The only problem is, I think it will be far too late once the conclusions come back. And depending on who is on power then, the results may never see the light of day.

i have just watched this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIDWn6ZBFY

it looks to me like this guy was shot whilst in the company of his red comrades, behind enemy lines so to speak

the shot appears to have come from behind him amongst the reds

so was it friendly fire or was it a sniper as some have claimed

opinions?

[vicco]

i think they should send all the video evidence taken during the conflict to an accredited/acceptable by both sides independant source in a neutral country and have it forensically analysed

that will surely stop any speculation about who did what and to whom?

That is exactly what a government spokesman suggested last night. They intend to set up an independent investigation of the deaths, to include foreign experts. They also invited UDD to be on the investigation panel and fully involved in the investigation. It sounds to me like the government has some very strong cards to play here, but they haven't shown their hand yet. The only problem is, I think it will be far too late once the conclusions come back. And depending on who is on power then, the results may never see the light of day.

Of course..this is exactly what should (and hopefully will ) happen. As they say, the first casualty of war is truth.

The French video is exclusive to France 24 TV.....just saw in again this morning. It is by far the best video I have seen in terms of clarity---shot by a pro.

In due course, the history of this event will be written and I have little doubt that we will see that both sides were doing bad things. In the meantime we will go on and

on speculating and reporting opinions as "facts".

[tgw]

i think they should send all the video evidence taken during the conflict to an accredited/acceptable by both sides independant source in a neutral country and have it forensically analysed

that will surely stop any speculation about who did what and to whom?

That is exactly what a government spokesman suggested last night. They intend to set up an independent investigation of the deaths, to include foreign experts. They also invited UDD to be on the investigation panel and fully involved in the investigation. It sounds to me like the government has some very strong cards to play here, but they haven't shown their hand yet. The only problem is, I think it will be far too late once the conclusions come back. And depending on who is on power then, the results may never see the light of day.

i have just watched this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIDWn6ZBFY

it looks to me like this guy was shot whilst in the company of his red comrades, behind enemy lines so to speak

the shot appears to have come from behind him amongst the reds

so was it friendly fire or was it a sniper as some have claimed

opinions?

I commented above - the guy gets shot outside the camera field, so we don't get to see the shot or who fired.

What seems clear is that it didn't come from the army - apart from that, anything seems possible.

[longway]

yes, I finally found the video of the guy whose brains had been blown out as well.

RIP, I feel sad for him.

I saved the vid incase they take it down again.

On the vid, the scene is not clearly seen, we don't see who shoots, but there is a dark-clothed man (looks like a uniform, could be a policeman) coming out of a shop, looking unsure and rushed and holding something in his hands - might have been a semi automatic.

He steps out of the camera field and a second later, the guy with the flag turns to that direction (probably because he heard something) and receives directly a shot into his forehead. I believe it was fired upwards.

Immediately after that, some 4 or 5 people are maintaining somebody on the ground.

Only speculations are possible on what happened.

I would say the policeman or soldier coming out of the shop was assaulted, and he somehow used his weapon to defend himself. I don't know if he intended to shoot in the air or at one of the attackers, but in any case he probably missed and the flag bearer caught the shot which was probably not aimed at him...

The only dark shirted man Isaw in the camera field was a man holding a helmet, is this the one you mean?

You cannot see who shoots the man, but he is shot from the right, and the troops look like they are on the left. If you look at the comments, one of them makes that same point.

[vicco]

[

i have just watched this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIDWn6ZBFY

it looks to me like this guy was shot whilst in the company of his red comrades, behind enemy lines so to speak

the shot appears to have come from behind him amongst the reds

so was it friendly fire or was it a sniper as some have claimed

opinions?

It is quite likely that snipers have been used. There was a video on u-tube where the cam panned around about 90 degrees or more. In the background you could see what appeared to be muzzle flashes from a building a few hundred feet away. People were hit and the way some of the crowd behaved it was apparent that they were trying to figure out where the shots were coming from....(the army was out front, but they were looking and pointing over to the side----towards the building?) Speculation off course, but snipers can not be ruled out. There is also a suggestion that the Japanese journalist was hit by a shot with a trajectory that would indicate a high up shooting position.

The question----who's snipers? If you connect this with the French TV video of soldiers firing on the crowd---isolated from the main force, you have to wonder.

[bubba]

/b]The government had everything to lose by the death of even a single protesto......

Looks like they lost a lot..... there's plenty of dead protesters....

Indeed they did lose a lot because of that. The question is: who shot them and who would have something to gain by the deaths?

Late yesterday on France 24 TV channel there was a video shot by a French journalist showing a couple of soldiers--one standing, one kneeling. They were firing directly into the crowd. As soon as they spotted the camera, they stopped immediately and withdrew. They fired quite a few rounds each (maybe 5 or 6) from M16's and there were not defending themselves from imminent danger---The journalist's comment was that the army statements about only firing into the air were clearly untrue. I have not seen this video anywhere else....but it has been shown several times on French TV and just this morning the scrolling news tape on France 24 is still making reference to it. If you get France 24....go take a look. It is pretty obvious both sides are being a lot less than candid about their activities.

That would be a very interesting video to see, if only it were available. As it was publicly shown, it will no doubt surface at some point if what you say is true. Might the video be somewhere in the France 24 website? If it is, please post it here.

this video is available, you can find it in general topics in a locked thread.

In fact here it is http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

edit to change link

Excellent find and the first evidence I think most of us have seen that troops did fire at level towards the protestors. It appears that after the grenade attack by the protestors on the army squad, things went into disarray and some might argue that the troops were being fired on and they were responding. However, this doesn't appear to be in any way justified and it clearly contradicts the government statement that the troops never used real bullets.

[tonywebster]

i think they should send all the video evidence taken during the conflict to an accredited/acceptable by both sides independant source in a neutral country and have it forensically analysed

that will surely stop any speculation about who did what and to whom?

That is exactly what a government spokesman suggested last night. They intend to set up an independent investigation of the deaths, to include foreign experts. They also invited UDD to be on the investigation panel and fully involved in the investigation. It sounds to me like the government has some very strong cards to play here, but they haven't shown their hand yet. The only problem is, I think it will be far too late once the conclusions come back. And depending on who is on power then, the results may never see the light of day.

i have just watched this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIDWn6ZBFY

it looks to me like this guy was shot whilst in the company of his red comrades, behind enemy lines so to speak

the shot appears to have come from behind him amongst the reds

so was it friendly fire or was it a sniper as some have claimed

opinions?

I commented above - the guy gets shot outside the camera field, so we don't get to see the shot or who fired.

What seems clear is that it didn't come from the army - apart from that, anything seems possible.

Why is it clear that it did not come from the army? Can you explain this when at first you say we don't get to see the shot or who fired, yet you say it is clear that it was not the army that fired the shot.

Hopefully you are not in charge of the inquest.

[animatic]

The government had nothing to gain by deaths of protesters or soldliers.

Reds gain Perception Management tools in the deaths,

they can;

Paint the government as bloodthirsty, blood on their hands etc etc,

Try and tie this to past historical army incidents

Scare some average Thais into backing off from Gov.

Anger some with long memories, with disinformation stories

Put the army on the back foot, scare the rank and file for the next round.

Ensure that they can build up their street group to fever pitch,

and throw them back out for more.

Gain more from up country by crying 'Oppression' 10 times as loud.

Eve if THEY pushed till it happened, not the government.

Gain martyrs to cynically parade...

The Red side had much to gain by deaths, government none.

Which side could be seen as needing deaths to get ahead?

Which side has to create big trouble to possibly prevail?

Which side has show a distinct amoral side about the safety of all thais?

Which side is steeped in a culture of revenge?

Why did this start up right after Thaksin's money was taken?

Why did Thaksin fly his family out right before this?

Why does he still call in regularly if he isn't central to all this?

What are Panlop and Sea Deang doing behind the veil?

Are these old guerrilla fighters playing by normal rules of conduct?

Would a sniper shooting a reporter in front of a soldier, be seen

by some as the soldier's doing, because the real shooter can't be seen?

Likely. Then add spin that the report insulted the soldier and he just fired.

A ludicrous idea for any reporter to do this of course... but some will believe.

Who was that large nosed, masked guy in black with the long range rifle in hand,

walking through reds without them doing anything?

We can also see the sudden influx of Red cheerleader types here, and an intensity of

focus on getting their message out repeatedly, regardless of accuracy or truth.

Propaganda style drumming out the message and drown out / belittle the dissenting voices.

This has happened each time the Reds made big moves on the ground.

This has happened across the board in Thai and English forums.

This is happening MUCH more right now than at any time since Songkran last.

This seems organized and very intentional.

Edited April 12, 2010 by animatic

[humfurry]

"We can also see the sudden influx of Red cheerleader types here, and an intensity of

focus on getting their message out repeatedly, regardless of accuracy or truth.

Propaganda style drumming out the message and drown out / belittle the dissenting voices.

This has happened each time the Reds made big moves on the ground.

This has happened across the board in Thai and English forums.

This is happening MUCH more right now than at any time since Songkran last.

This seems organized and very intentional. "

Yes that does seem to be the case.

[blackman]

it seems clear to me that there were para military militia in the reds camp and it was those people that were responsible for the escalation of this problem

there are a number of reports of 'Men in Black' firing live rounds and grenades

i would like to believe that not all red shirts approve of this kind of thing and truly wanted a peaceful protest

so lets give then a chance to address the situation and be rewarded for having the courage to turn in these mercenaries

i would propose that a fund be started to issue rewards to people for informing on these murderers

it could be administrated by the government and private business

even by individuals who think that this needs to be resolved and the truth exposed to the world

i am one of those and to put my money where my mouth is, i would start this thing off with 10,000 baht

i would ask TV admin to submit this to The Nation for thier consideration too

anyone else?

[bubba]

it seems clear to me that there were para military militia in the reds camp and it was those people that were responsible for the escalation of this problem

there are a number of reports of 'Men in Black' firing live rounds and grenades

i would like to believe that not all red shirts approve of this kind of thing and truly wanted a peaceful protest

so lets give then a chance to address the situation and be rewarded for having the courage to turn in these mercenaries

i would propose that a fund be started to issue rewards to people for informing on these murderers

it could be administrated by the government and private business

even by individuals who think that this needs to be resolved and the truth exposed to the world

i am one of those and to put my money where my mouth is, i would start this thing off with 10,000 baht

i would ask TV admin to submit this to The Nation for thier consideration too

anyone else?

Count me in as a contributor to the fund. The only problem I see is fair and impartial consideration of any evidence that is submitted and a subsequent judgement that any indicted subject is indeed guilty.

Edited April 12, 2010 by bubba

[tonywebster]

it seems clear to me that there were para military militia in the reds camp and it was those people that were responsible for the escalation of this problem

there are a number of reports of 'Men in Black' firing live rounds and grenades

i would like to believe that not all red shirts approve of this kind of thing and truly wanted a peaceful protest

so lets give then a chance to address the situation and be rewarded for having the courage to turn in these mercenaries

i would propose that a fund be started to issue rewards to people for informing on these murderers

it could be administrated by the government and private business

even by individuals who think that this needs to be resolved and the truth exposed to the world

i am one of those and to put my money where my mouth is, i would start this thing off with 10,000 baht

i would ask TV admin to submit this to The Nation for thier consideration too

anyone else?

Count me in as a contributor to the fund. The only problem I see is fair and impartial consideration of any evidence that is submitted and a subsequent judgement that any indicted subject is indeed guilty.

yes, and also turn in the soldiers that fired live rounds into the crowd so we have some equality here. I trust we have all seen the guy that had his brains blown out, when he fell to the ground it was clear he was carrying nothing more than a flag. that poor kid was there purely because it was the right thing for him to do, trying to bring some equality to HIS country. let's smoke out the bad eggs on both sides, because if we are to be honest about this both sides has them.

[kissdani]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpz-ByED6go

In case you can't bear to look, it is troops, on tanks

Another video and another example of "NOT tanks, but armored personnel carriers"

Any others you wish to try?

I think the problem here is lack of understading on your collective parts as to what heavily armed vehicle on tracks means.

Sorry mate, you are on your own now..... but nice try anyway.

Did you just honestly say that the military's (US, other NATO-nations, etc) use of the word 'tank' wrong and that you are right?

Well, when the military (US or major allied nations) mistakes journalists for civilians and shoot them dead, we should be indulgently when civilians and journalists mistake APC for a tanks.

A couple of new reports spoke of tanks in the streets of Bangkok. 'heavily armed vehicle on tracks' a lot of civilians would call tanks and not APC.

Honestly, the friendly and smooth 4-letter word 'tank' is an euphemism for APC civilians easy understand and prefer to use. APC sounds scary, belligerent, a word straight from the vocabulary of combatants, militarists, war veterans, soldiers. Soldiers are murderers.

[blackman]

it seems clear to me that there were para military militia in the reds camp and it was those people that were responsible for the escalation of this problem

there are a number of reports of 'Men in Black' firing live rounds and grenades

i would like to believe that not all red shirts approve of this kind of thing and truly wanted a peaceful protest

so lets give then a chance to address the situation and be rewarded for having the courage to turn in these mercenaries

i would propose that a fund be started to issue rewards to people for informing on these murderers

it could be administrated by the government and private business

even by individuals who think that this needs to be resolved and the truth exposed to the world

i am one of those and to put my money where my mouth is, i would start this thing off with 10,000 baht

i would ask TV admin to submit this to The Nation for thier consideration too

anyone else?

Count me in as a contributor to the fund. The only problem I see is fair and impartial consideration of any evidence that is submitted and a subsequent judgement that any indicted subject is indeed guilty.

yes, and also turn in the soldiers that fired live rounds into the crowd so we have some equality here. I trust we have all seen the guy that had his brains blown out, when he fell to the ground it was clear he was carrying nothing more than a flag. that poor kid was there purely because it was the right thing for him to do, trying to bring some equality to HIS country. let's smoke out the bad eggs on both sides, because if we are to be honest about this both sides has them.

ok, i would agree with that

lets be fair and transparent for all to see

[tracymeaw]

Abhisit pride is worth more than the blood filled streets of Bangkok. Some trolls on this forum like to repeatedly call the redshirts terrorist, insurgents, thugs, etc. A person of this description would not provide aid to a wounded foe and certainly would not return seized weapons (later to be used against them). If it were the Redshirts that wanted to provoke a violent response, they would not hand over weapons. Abhisit is the failed leader that has fueled the violence which has resulted in needless loss of life. He cut media outlets and ordered the most brutal attacks under the cover of darkness in an attempt to hide proof of the inhumane acts against unarmed citizens. Too bad for Abhisit, this is the age of digital cameras, tweets and iphones. Hard to hide the murders these days too because protesters willingly surrender their id cards before coming to Bangkok in case they turn up killed/missing, or both. Today in various news reports, Abhisit claimed the Army had been authorized to fire live rounds over protesters heads. An M16 rifle has an effective range of approx 600 yards... it would take a mindless idiot to authorize troops to fire live rounds over protesters heads in a densely populated urban environment. The man waving the flag (shot through chest) and another instance of a man holding a flag (headshot) are all the proof we need that the soldiers did not fire over their heads. It dosnt really matter which direction the bullet came from! This is all the proof we need that Abhisit is responsible for the senseless murders of innocent unarmed civilians.

Warning Graphic content:

Unarmed civilian shot through chest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8613482.stm

Unarmed civilian shot through head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpARrZG7_qw...player_embedded

How about the M79 grenades fired, hand grenades and petrol bombs thrown into the armed forces, people with assault rifles etc. walking amongst the reds? What role did they play in the bloodshed yesterday? What would the government be gaining from some operation like the one yesterday?

A 3rd element would certainly be a possibility in a situation that is clearly driven out of control by the governments’ use of excessive force. What is certain is that the men in these videos do not hold the weapons you have listed and did not deserve to be murdered. The fact that they were holding flags in their hands makes it even more obvious that this was not a case of mistaken identity and these actions were deliberate in nature.

Abhisit declared an Emergency Decree and later poured fuel on the fire by blasting the military for not enforcing it at his personal level of hatred. This was a police matter handled by a conscript military that should primarily be trained to confront armed forces... not unarmed civilians. The emergency decree was only successful in underscoring the double standards and selective enforcement of the so-called rule of law by the current government.

The handling of the situation has been a complete failure but I doubt you will hear any of them take responsibility. If Abhisit doesn’t step down quickly, there may be more needless death and destruction in the very near future. I don’t care what side (if any) you are on; the cost of these lives (on all sides) is worth much more than a stupid election timetable.

"Military, police and all security forces have no right to be discouraged, no right to fail," Abhisit said.

“The law doesn’t mean we aim to crack down or hurt people, especially innocent people,” Abhisit said.

“Weapons were used only in self defense and to fire into the air. We don’t find any evidence that soldiers used weapons against people,” Panitan Wattanayagorn said.

Government spokesman Panithan Wattanayagorn defended the soldiers' performance and accused the demonstrators of using heavy weapons against them.

Dr. Tomas Larsson, a political scientist at Cambridge University, said concerns about Thailand's international image could act as a restraint on a more violent crackdown. "Quashing the protests with disproportionate force, along lines that we have come to associate with the military regime in Burma, would do irreparable damage to Thailand's standing in the international community," he said by e-mail. "But I'm afraid cooler heads may not prevail in the coming days and weeks."

[evanson]

it seems clear to me that there were para military militia in the reds camp and it was those people that were responsible for the escalation of this problem

there are a number of reports of 'Men in Black' firing live rounds and grenades

i would like to believe that not all red shirts approve of this kind of thing and truly wanted a peaceful protest

so lets give then a chance to address the situation and be rewarded for having the courage to turn in these mercenaries

i would propose that a fund be started to issue rewards to people for informing on these murderers

it could be administrated by the government and private business

even by individuals who think that this needs to be resolved and the truth exposed to the world

i am one of those and to put my money where my mouth is, i would start this thing off with 10,000 baht

i would ask TV admin to submit this to The Nation for thier consideration too

anyone else?

After watching a couple of videos yesterday evening pointing out these 'men in black', I was surprised not to have read more of who they are/might be, today. A friend of mine told me they were red shirt security guards. When I pointed out that even a red shirt in one of the videos, after describing what happened insofar as this 'man in black' fired his weapon and then disappeared, didn't know who he was, my friend still vehemently insisted the 'man in black' was a red shirt security guard as he'd been to their rally and seen security guards dressed in black.

Perhaps someone could shed some light? I personally believe they're an outside party brought in to 'move things along a bit'. Seems obvious. But there's no telling some people ...

Edited April 12, 2010 by evanson

[Siam Simon]

The government had nothing to gain by deaths of protesters or soldliers.

Reds gain Perception Management tools in the deaths,

they can;

Paint the government as bloodthirsty, blood on their hands etc etc,

Try and tie this to past historical army incidents

Scare some average Thais into backing off from Gov.

Anger some with long memories, with disinformation stories

Put the army on the back foot, scare the rank and file for the next round.

Ensure that they can build up their street group to fever pitch,

and throw them back out for more.

Gain more from up country by crying 'Oppression' 10 times as loud.

Eve if THEY pushed till it happened, not the government.

Gain martyrs to cynically parade...

The Red side had much to gain by deaths, government none.

Which side could be seen as needing deaths to get ahead?

Which side has to create big trouble to possibly prevail?

Which side has show a distinct amoral side about the safety of all thais?

Which side is steeped in a culture of revenge?

Why did this start up right after Thaksin's money was taken?

Why did Thaksin fly his family out right before this?

Why does he still call in regularly if he isn't central to all this?

What are Panlop and Sea Deang doing behind the veil?

Are these old guerrilla fighters playing by normal rules of conduct?

Would a sniper shooting a reporter in front of a soldier, be seen

by some as the soldier's doing, because the real shooter can't be seen?

Likely. Then add spin that the report insulted the soldier and he just fired.

A ludicrous idea for any reporter to do this of course... but some will believe.

Who was that large nosed, masked guy in black with the long range rifle in hand,

walking through reds without them doing anything?

We can also see the sudden influx of Red cheerleader types here, and an intensity of

focus on getting their message out repeatedly, regardless of accuracy or truth.

Propaganda style drumming out the message and drown out / belittle the dissenting voices.

This has happened each time the Reds made big moves on the ground.

This has happened across the board in Thai and English forums.

This is happening MUCH more right now than at any time since Songkran last.

This seems organized and very intentional.

Conspiracy theories and reds under the bed again , eh, Ralph?

[nexus99]

Its pretty clear that the Red Shirts have cross the line from political activists to domestic terrorists. They government should respond with like levels of force (live ammo, explosives, etc) and clean up the mess. Once a couple hundred terrorists are dead and another 1000 are arrested the Red Shirts might get the point. Can you imagine this being allowed in any 1st world country? This would have been shut down at the first glimpse of violence.

[tonywebster]

tomazbodner

the mystery surrounding the stolen weapons was solved, despite trying to pin this on the reds to create mass hysteria and justify the ISA, the army has since admitted that the weapons were taken by their own men and sold to southern insurgents.

[anotherpeter]

A 3rd element would certainly be a possibility in a situation that is clearly driven out of control by the governments' use of excessive force. What is certain is that the men in these videos do not hold the weapons you have listed and did not deserve to be murdered. The fact that they were holding flags in their hands makes it even more obvious that this was not a case of mistaken identity and these actions were deliberate in nature.

Was this guy standing with the flag "murdered" or was it an accidental shot in a struggle for a weapon?

It was clear the the guy was NOT shot by the army that the reds were fighting to the left of the screen.

The shot came from the right and IMO from close range, and given the top of his head was gone, it probably came from lower down. The guy in black that had just walked out from under the awning/building had something small in his hands and it also appeared that there were people holding someone down after the guy was shot.

Also, the BBC video clearly showed red shirts firing weapons. It didn't show the guy in the pickup that got shot, just comments from the eyewitness that he was up high and got shot in the chest. It could have come from the army responding to being fired on, or it could have come from the red shirts.