Would I Be Better Off Back In Europe?

[simon43]

This post is to encourage discussion, not a specific announcement that I'm departing from Thailand after 8 years here

I love Thailand very much, but I and my Thai partner have serious concerns about where the country is heading. Being selfish (human nature), we want to ensure the best for us and our family (family meaning future kids, existing siblings etc).

I left the UK in 2002 primarily for health reasons. (Long story, need to live in a warm/hot climate).

As I get older, I also start to think more about the benefits of being able to call upon government support services back in Europe, such as hospitals and social services care, not forgetting financial support if you are unemployed, (never used it in my life but you never know ...)

Tonight we were chatting about 'what if'. What if we moved to southern Europe (Italy/Spain) and opened a Thai restaurant or similar business which can use my partner's cooking skills (her food is ace!), and exploit my own ability to work in EU countries without any visa/work permit etc. (We got thinking because I was offered a 90,000 GBP/annum job in Italy working in the space/satellite business - my previous profession)

It was an interesting discussion, and it's my partner who is keen to leave Thailand! (She lived in the UK with me for 6 months some 5 years ago).

Dreamer maybe. But I'd be interested to hear your opinions of whether working in the EU (not UK!), is a reasonable idea for the longer term. Are you personally worried about the future of Thailand?

Simon

[somtampet]

Could be a good idea as any eu country you will be able to get many freebies if required.Not realy thought anout it much but you may have a good idea there,other than Spain etc are more expensive than Thailand.

[yabaaaa]

I would bite their arm off and take the 90k job, Italians are a friendly nice bunch, just be sure your wife can live in a cooler climate.

Thailand is a land run by children with no responsibility in my opinion.

[GuestHouse]

Your at an age which is really your peak earning years - So unless you've landed an expat deal here in Thailand yes you'd almost certainly be better off back in Europe.

I don't think the issue is so much were Thailand is going as where Thailand is not going - Thailand is not going down the road of providing any kind of security (financial or otherwise) for foreigners.

• Yes you can have a visa to live here, but we'll take a look at that again next year and let you know.
  
• Yes you can keep money in the bank here (actually we'll tell you how much you can keep in the bank) but you are going to get a pish poor interest rate.
  
• Yes we'll let you own a condo, but watch out for the percentage ownership rules.
  
• Yes you can buy a house for your wife/husband and family but we'll tell you who owns it and if the worst happens we'll force you to sell it in a time frame we dictate.
  

The list goes on.

It's not access to freebies in Europe but access to rights.

Having done a 2 year posting in Rome I'd say Italy would be my (and my wife's) first choice for a European home, though France would be good too.

90K per year to live in Italy - It's a 'No Brainer'.

If you take the job and need advice on getting your wife's Permesso di Soggiorno sorted let me know.

Just as a comparison - Permesso di Soggiorno - that's where your wife gets and initial 5 year leave to remain in Italy and with it the immediate right to work, access health and welfare, own property in her own name and in the second 5 year period to apply for permanent residence and citizenship.

Edited April 21, 2010 by GuestHouse

[simon43]

Guesthouse, you don't need to tell me of the benefits

Since I got back into the software/telecoms work again, I have seen a number of opportunities working back in Europe where the advantages are more than just putting euros in the bank. I will not return to the UK (too cold for my health), but southern Europe is very tempting!

I've met Thais who went abroad to start a business, and not a single one of them wanted to return to live in Thailand!

I speak reasonable Italian (very easy language to learn for a Brit if you speak French), love the ice-cream etc

But it's not just the job opportunity - it's the uncertainly about Thailand and where it is going, and where it is not going.

Simon

Edit - Southern France (Toulouse) is also a possibility. I used to own a house in the Pyrenees and worked for Aerospatiale in Toulouse. How I miss French food and good wines!

Edited April 21, 2010 by simon43

[GungaDin]

Two events would make me look seriously about my situation in Thailand.

1) If Thaksin (ever) came back as President of a Banana Republic.

2) What will happen when a much respected person crosses the Rainbow Bridge.

Number 2 is frightening and the LM law will be abused & used like never before.

This could lead to civil war & I am not joking.

I hate the thought of going back to boring Aus but like the OP, I need somewhere warm & safe for my last few years on this beautiful, blue planet.

Flame away..

[changnaam]

Totally agree,

there has to be very good reasons to stay here these days, especially through one's best earning potential years. I would consider the option seriously and you can always come back a month during the long euro summer and a couple of weeks at xmas but my bet would be that you find loads of better places to spend your time off.

I am here for work reasons only and would not hesitate to move given an opportunity better than I have, the days of doing anything to stay here are long gone.

Yeah you have to consider tax implications but I would give it some thought.

[Tonto21]

Two events would make me look seriously about my situation in Thailand.

1) If Thaksin (ever) came back as President of a Banana Republic.

2) What will happen when a much respected person crosses the Rainbow Bridge.

Number 2 is frightening and the LM law will be abused & used like never before.

This could lead to civil war & I am not joking.

I hate the thought of going back to boring Aus but like the OP, I need somewhere warm & safe for my last few years on this beautiful, blue planet.

Flame away..

Never really gave your 2nd point much thought……Till now, Interesting, even a bit worrying with the general mind set in Thailand. If this was to happen now with everything else happening, Thailand would go in to melt down I think.

[Slaps]

Well if the OP takes the job he might need this

Italian_CLOCK.wmv

[rgs2001uk]

Two events would make me look seriously about my situation in Thailand.

1) If Thaksin (ever) came back as President of a Banana Republic.

2) What will happen when a much respected person crosses the Rainbow Bridge.

Number 2 is frightening and the LM law will be abused & used like never before.

This could lead to civil war & I am not joking.

I hate the thought of going back to boring Aus but like the OP, I need somewhere warm & safe for my last few years on this beautiful, blue planet.

Flame away..

Never really gave your 2nd point much thought……Till now, Interesting, even a bit worrying with the general mind set in Thailand. If this was to happen now with everything else happening, Thailand would go in to melt down I think.

Number 2 is a matter of when not if.

Where is back up plan a,b,c or d?

Taxi to travel agent, ticket to Hong Kong or Singapore for example, then ride out the storm and wait for the dust clouds to settle, before returning if at all.

Some may not have the luxury of leaving, but should at least consider the options.

[changnaam]

Interesting comments.

Off topic a little but I wonder how many out there really have a back up plan if things hit the fan. I bet there are many with too many eggs in the Thai basket and would be back to square one. Maybe I am off the mark but from comments here and things I hear I wonder how many could up sticks and continue in the same fashion elsewhere without having a major setback.

Certainly time to consider a "plan B"

[WOOHOO]

For me this would be a fairly straight forward decision. If you have genuine concerns about Thailands future. You take the job, enjoy living in Italy for a while, and put some decent cash in the bank. Then if the future pans out OK here, and you miss the place, you come back. If it goes tits up here, or your just so happy there you don't want to come back, you stay.

Going, is the only option where you have the best of both worlds, you will have to eventually end up doing what's best for you. Not going leaves you with, what ifs and if onlys, and you'll never know if you made the right choice.

When you come back though, which I'm sure you will, come back to Phuket. I'm sure that's where your heart still is, right?

[simon43]

When you come back though, which I'm sure you will, come back to Phuket. I'm sure that's where your heart still is, right?

If my ex had been more accurate with her knife, it would have been my heart, liver and kidneys...

Simon

[GungaDin]

Number 2 is a matter of when not if.

Where is back up plan a,b,c or d?

Taxi to travel agent, ticket to Hong Kong or Singapore for example, then ride out the storm and wait for the dust clouds to settle, before returning if at all.

Some may not have the luxury of leaving, but should at least consider the options.

Note: I didn't say "if" for # 2.

If I was younger and had a small family, I wouldn't be here now.

I recall Penzman's comments to me before he left with his family... Thailand has no future if they don't change the education system

and teach critical thinking and questioning authority.

He's now happily ensconced in Canada with his family.

I have started plan B, in future I will just be a plain old tourist & try to keep my rental going while away.

Luckily, it is only 6300/month., a fifth of what it will be in Aus.

*Simon, go for it while you have the chance.

You can always come back.

[dudemeister]

Simon dont go!

What hope is there for us if member number 174 thinks its the end of LOS?

[BigWheelMan]

Guesthouse, you don't need to tell me of the benefits

Since I got back into the software/telecoms work again, I have seen a number of opportunities working back in Europe where the advantages are more than just putting euros in the bank. I will not return to the UK (too cold for my health), but southern Europe is very tempting!

I've met Thais who went abroad to start a business, and not a single one of them wanted to return to live in Thailand!

I speak reasonable Italian (very easy language to learn for a Brit if you speak French), love the ice-cream etc

But it's not just the job opportunity - it's the uncertainly about Thailand and where it is going, and where it is not going.

Simon

Edit - Southern France (Toulouse) is also a possibility. I used to own a house in the Pyrenees and worked for Aerospatiale in Toulouse. How I miss French food and good wines!

It`s not a matter of where I would be better off and the benefits of running a business abroad.

The question should be, what can I afford to do?

I live in Thailand and agree with everything you say regarding the way Thailand is heading. But for most of us, what we do and how we do it is dictated by financial capabilities.

Like many other ex-pats, I have invested a lot of my capital in Thailand, plus living on a pension that’s a reasonable sum but not a fortune.

At this time I would be more than happy to move somewhere by the med, maybe in Italy, Spain or Cypress. Buy a little villa and run a small shop.

But for me, unless I come into a large amount of money from somewhere and my pension increases by 200% within the next few months, these options are out of the question.

Dream on, baby.

Edited April 21, 2010 by BigWheelMan

[witold]

I think you are overestimating the uncertainty in Thailand, particularly how it will affect you.

You are married to a Thai and you can stay here for as long as you want. Whatever political trouble happens will have zero bearing on your day to day life. Over the next 20 years, Thailand will become more like a developed Western country, with increased rule of law, etc. Particular leadership changes and structure changes don't matter for 99% of us.

So it sounds like it comes down to finances. To me, 90K in Italy sounds dreamy. I would leave almost every Thai city in a heartbeat for that... with possible exceptions being Bangkok and a few beach front locations. So maybe what you are leading up to is financial uncertainty in Thailand... if you don't have a good retirement plan and savings, and exchange rate continues to sour over the next 20 years, things will not look good.... you know your situation better... But you can be sure of one thing - as Thailand joins truly developed world, everything will become more and more expensive. Thailand will be cheaper than Europe for a very long time, but the disparity will narrow as the standards of living also marrow.

[garyh]

Two events would make me look seriously about my situation in Thailand.

1) If Thaksin (ever) came back as President of a Banana Republic.

2) What will happen when a much respected person crosses the Rainbow Bridge.

Number 2 is frightening and the LM law will be abused & used like never before.

This could lead to civil war & I am not joking.

I hate the thought of going back to boring Aus but like the OP, I need somewhere warm & safe for my last few years on this beautiful, blue planet.

Flame away..

Most of you probably have not seen the documentary shown in Australia very recently about point 2 above which has been banned in Thailand and caused friction between the 2 governments. It doe's highlight the problems that may arise and they are serious.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Simon unless you have heaps of money my advice would be take the job. Thailand will still be here in a few years (well probably) and you can come back and live a better life with a cushion to get you through any unforeseen events. Besides a lot of the happiness you have with your partner is memories. Make them while you are young and enjoy them forever. Going to new places and doing new things will bring you and the wife closer together.

My wife and I are concerned with the way things are going in Thailand and are considering a possible move. We are long time retired and have no intention or need to go to work. In comparing places to go we have kind of settled on Uruguay as a backup to Thailand. It appears the cost of living is a bit higher and we will encounter many of the same problems you get in most third world countries. But to us the big big advantage as you can get a passport after three years and become a citizen no more trips to immigration or wondering what rule changes they will make next.

While we do love Thailand, we don't feel permanent here and as you get older that becomes more important, to us anyway. Besides we have lived in LOS for 4 years and a bit of adventure in finding a new place keeps the old brain cells busy.

Sorry I got off topic there, but trying to give you my thoughts on why you should go for it.

[sokal]

I would bite their arm off and take the 90k job, Italians are a friendly nice bunch, just be sure your wife can live in a cooler climate.

Thailand is a land run by children with no responsibility in my opinion.

I am shorting Italian debt at the moment. First it was Iceland, now its Greece and soon it will be Italy going through the Wall street sausage machine.

[Soutpeel]

Simon, by the looks of things you have already made your mind up....take it...you can always come back to Thailand.

If you decide not to take it, I will guarantee down the line, you regret not taking it.

Regards Thailand future.....Unlike Witold, don't believe Thailand will be the way he describes it. it will just about the same as it is now...and posters on TV 20 years down the line will be debating/arguing about the latest "Red shirt vs Yellow shirt" Crisis....

For Thailand to change, there needs to a be leader who comes along who is prepared the "break the mould" (Thaksin is not it)

[GuestHouse]

I am shorting Italian debt at the moment.

Another George Sorros

[Blackandwhite]

Sounds good,

90'000.00 after stealth taxes ect and extautionate cost of living what would it leave you with ??

Would you be happy, who is to say guess that depands on what makes you happpy ????

Italy is a very nice countryand they do seem to have some morals still that do keep a good community spirit. Dont know, I dont speak from experience but if I was you I would sit it out here as long as poss, nothing is going to go to shit over night and falangs are not exactly fleeing in drove back home.

Up to you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[geriatrickid]

I am shorting Italian debt at the moment.

Another George Sorros

Perhaps, but Sorros has money doesn't he and there are a lot of Italians hurting now.

The Italian economy is not that strong. The only European economy with any significant strength is Germany, and I wonder how much longer that will continue as there are going to be other countries lined up with their hands outstretched looking for handouts to subsidize their profligate ways and lazy people.

90K Euro is a nice chunk of change, but once the taxes and cost of living are factored in, is it that wonderful? I think a better comparison is to compare after tax and after expense net incomes. I'm not being negative, because I certainly would consider the Italian job if I could maintain a decent lifestyle.

I think it is only going to get worse in Thailand and once someone responsible takes over the finance ministry alot of skeletons are going to fall out of the closet. Programs have been promised, but the financing for those programs isn't there. This suggests that there will eventually be alot of unhappy people once the promises are not delivered on. Thailand's economy is due for a nasty adjustment and if someone can get a good job anywhere, he should grab it.

The one caution though is that the Italians are getting very tough on immigration now. If you do not look "white" you will be hassled. Italians are showing an unpleasant streak of protectionism lately.

[ExpatJ]

Well firstly i agree with the earlier poster- in 20 years time Thailand is going to be much more developed and it will be far more expensive to live here. The current political situation is a blip on the road to Thailand's development. I am very very confident that Thailand will be back to normal very soon and foreigners will be as welcome as in any other similar country. Lets all post again in a years time and thereafter- see who was right :-)

To the OP- am i correct in saying you are already retired? In which case , unless you need the money, i think it would be abit sad to have to join the 9-5 rat race again - surely better to enjoy the remaining years of your life with your hobbies and family and perhaps a small business run from home.

If you were 30-50 years old..then i would say take the job- but only because 30-50 are prime earning years.

I am still very happy in Thailand and am lucky enough to be here on a expat package.

[ExpatJ]

I am shorting Italian debt at the moment.

Another George Sorros

Perhaps, but Sorros has money doesn't he and there are a lot of Italians hurting now.

The Italian economy is not that strong. The only European economy with any significant strength is Germany, and I wonder how much longer that will continue as there are going to be other countries lined up with their hands outstretched looking for handouts to subsidize their profligate ways and lazy people.

90K Euro is a nice chunk of change, but once the taxes and cost of living are factored in, is it that wonderful? I think a better comparison is to compare after tax and after expense net incomes. I'm not being negative, because I certainly would consider the Italian job if I could maintain a decent lifestyle.

I think it is only going to get worse in Thailand and once someone responsible takes over the finance ministry alot of skeletons are going to fall out of the closet. Programs have been promised, but the financing for those programs isn't there. This suggests that there will eventually be alot of unhappy people once the promises are not delivered on. Thailand's economy is due for a nasty adjustment and if someone can get a good job anywhere, he should grab it.

The one caution though is that the Italians are getting very tough on immigration now. If you do not look "white" you will be hassled. Italians are showing an unpleasant streak of protectionism lately.

Good point about the racism- have to say that Italians are far more racist than Thais- and much more open about it. Your Thai wife will probably have to put up with being called racist names if you live in the Italian country side.

Income tax for salaries more than 75,000 Euro is 45%- so with 90K the OP would get 50K take home, but there would also be local/regional taxes to pay. Still higher than most would be able earn in Thailand.

[sarahsbloke]

Thailand is a place for older people to retire and have much younger partners.

No good at all for someone who is young and needs to earn money.

Just my opinion.

[Chaimai]

Thailand is a place for older people to retire and have much younger partners.

No good at all for someone who is young and needs to earn money.

Just my opinion.

I think that this is a very accurate assessment of the bigger picture regarding foreigners and Thailand.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Chaimai

[thaibeachlovers]

Bearing in mind why I have been visiting Thailand as much as possible over so many years, if I had the financial means to stay there, they'd have to deport me before I went back to the west. Sadly, the cr-p sterling exchange rate means that I may in fact have to leave before I'm ready ( and after saving for 10 years to be able to afford to stay in my remaining time ) Thanks all you bl--dy financial @#$)(&$.

[tb86]

this is a truly interesing topic, something that we have been discussing for some time... Not to say that i want to leave thailand but as im only 31 and recently married the immediate future of thailand say 3-5 years scares me a little, i have in the last few years opened several buisness and are doing quite well..... for the time being. I would love to have a crystal ball to see what the future holds, but as we all know thats not going to happen. we own our own cars and are very near completion of a beautiful new house here in bangkok, were luck to be virtualy debt free with maybe 3-5 years cash surplus potential enough to last us double that if we were to be thrifty. I could farily easily go back to being an employee at a respectable salary pretty much anywhere in the world as my profession is in high demand world wide....With that being said, when does one decide to leave this place... any advice from the older guys?