Bangkok On Edge After Deadly Grenade Blasts

[sealy]

A show of physical force rather than lethal force may have an effect? Who know's.

Who knows indeed. It might be better than the stand off they're having now.

It could get ugly though similar to the 1992 LA riots which in the end were stopped when the National Guard, US Army and Marines were called in.

just hold the cobra gold exercise right in bangkok now......

[Neurath]

Many Thais say

It was safer in Thailand under the last Coup

Maybe its time for the army to save the country, we know democracy does not work

Yes, I could not agree more. When the coup happened I was in the US, having been here in March and returning nin Nov. When the coup happened I emailed a friend of mine and asked if she was OK. Her response was "Honestly G, I don't know anyone who doesn't support this" and sent photos of people with the troops. When I came back in November everything was calm.

The red shirts clamor for democracy in their rhetoric but it is just rhetoric, their real goal is to bring their boss back. Everyone knows that. And I agree democracy does not work, I've seen it's failure first hand living in the US for 55 years... I think that if there were a coup we'd see scenes like those my friend sent me photos of in 2006 - children giving ice cream to the soldiers, just as the people in Silom welcomed troops the other day with food and drink and smiles.

Reminds me of the German army welcome, as they liberated the gentle people of eastern europe...

read: http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displa...ory_id=15955366

The Economist's approach is a familiar one in the West. I saw much the same on ABC Online ("The Drum") and I believe much the same again appeared in the New York Times and the Toronto Globe and Mail. (Maybe they're using each other's stuff.)

The model of historical change they adopt is that of the French annalistes and their successors, with perhaps a postmodern rejection of "the author". Events must be analysed in terms of broad social movements rather than the short-term consequences of political events or the influence of individuals. Hence, the red shirt phenomenon seen from this perspective can't be a construct of Thaksin, money and populism; it must represent a longer-term social shift. As a consequence, those who point to Thaksin, money-politics, corruption, manipulation of the masses, media, etc. must be seen as short-sighted and missing the big picture.

The trouble is, in trying to get your head around the big picture all the time, you can lose sight of all the little pictures on the ground; in fact, to mix metaphors, you can lose sight of the elephant in the room. Western journalists are the product of their education and training and some have benefited greatly from it. It is wise to keep an eye on the base, not just the superstructure, but it's not the whole picture and often can lead to a skewed interpretation, especially when analyzing such a culturally different phenomenon as conflict resolution in Thailand.

I very much like this analysis Xang - it puts very eloquently something I had been thinking but was too inarticulate to get down.

[shawndoc]

Video taken from the red shirt side that shows a projectile launched from red side aimed at skybridge/BTS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHfdsDTtP3c

No idea of M79 or just "fireworks".

EDIT: Added URL

Edited April 23, 2010 by shawndoc

[Thunder26]

Nor does Abhisit!

there are some people typing here who are living just a year or two in Thailand and think they know everything, I met these kind of blue eyed farang every single day. LOL

What do you mean? Abhisit was elected by the majority in parliament, and the parliament was elected by people, simple folks..? I've been in Thailand for many years since Taksin was in power and I saw the progression of things, don't show yourself to be smart.

[granuaile]

THE NATION: US Emb has announced "town hall" mtg regarding the situation for US citizens (bring passport) on Mon, 26, 14:00 at JW Marriott

Yo, fellow Americans. What do you all think this is gonna be about? Are they gonna describe evacuation plans should things REALLY get out of hand? Anyone planning on going? I think I may drop by if conditions continue to look bad on Monday.

Not really worried about it... the whole idea stinks of American politics... don't trust them and never did. What's happening is just Thailand.

P.S. My ancestors were in America before there was a U.S. Constitution.

Mine too, and I have little faith in the American political structure overall. Sometimes I wish my ancestors had been Tories instead of revolutionaries... But it's all we have so, perhaps need to hear their take. And I like to think with the current administration things will change for the better...

[Silurian]

Given Anupong's comments a few minutes ago that the Army won't use force to disperse the people's demonstrations, nor will it stand and watch Thai's killing Thai's

Doesn't leave too many options. Unless he's talking crap - he's done a marvellous job of standing around watching so far.

I think it is called the Ostrich approach. You stick your head in the sand and hope it all goes away.

[melbpete]

BTS' security cameras confirm M79 grenades fired from Lumpini Park: deputy BKK governor

Cue excuses from red supporters ...

Please post a link that confirms this

Daily updates.

[commons]

If there is no terrorist element within the Red Shirts, and i willing to accept if i am mistaken, then why do i see so many photographs and video of red shirts in violent situations with weapons.

Are you suggesting that the government or Army are firing grenades at their own people in an attempt to win sympathy?

That picture is so old I am surprised it is not black and white. And yes, I am suggesting that the government are not adverse to collateral damage if it boosts their cause. It would not be the first time and I am sure it will not be the last.

would you be so kind to elaborate a bit? i'd be especially interested to learn more about "the government" you're referring to?

[sealy]

To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of the ignorant.

Yes, it would be ignorant to believe everything that is written

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

....are these lessons questions posted by the reds or yellows at silom ?????

wow, so profound....this lesson 101 from the philosophy class at silom.....????????

[jdinasia]

He must be meaning PTP opposition ... since they are allied with the rest of the reds and certainly not opposed to violence.

[dobadoy]

Given Anupong's comments a few minutes ago that the Army won't use force to disperse the people's demonstrations, nor will it stand and watch Thai's killing Thai's

Doesn't leave too many options. Unless he's talking crap - he's done a marvellous job of standing around watching so far.

I think it is called the Ostrich approach. You stick your head in the sand and hope it all goes away.

Clearly this guy is the 'mother of all watermelons'. He's undermining the authority of the PM and should be removed and tried for treason (in a real world where there are laws that is, obviously not the backward mob-ruled failed state that Thailand has now confirmed it has become).

[commons]

PM Abhisit made a very clear point from start that Government is still opening all the dialogues for Red Shirts but regretfully Red Shirt leaders rejected it. That is the clear reason how the cause series of the life losses & injured ones happened recently. Does Red Shirts realise that? Now it is not surprised that UN urgued both Government and Red shirts to resume the dialogue..... Is the fights enough & time to resume the talks for the sake of everyone.

How can one make something clear from the start that they are still open to talks? Do you mean they made it clear from the start they were open for talks? They were either open from the start or become open later. In this case it was the reds that wanted dialogue but abhisit refused, then he agreed to send representatives, and then eventually he turned up himself. Now since he ordered the murder of Thais he seems to want to talk again but the reds are quite rightly refusing. They stated their case, said what they want, the government said what they want, it reached a stalemate.

So now we have abhisit wanting to negotiate with terrorists, why? are they terrorists or are they not terrorists? What does he want to negotiate? the same time scale? No point in negotiating. His time is up, he is just delaying the inevitable and putting more lives at risk, but I suppose that is easy to do when you are sat in an army barracks basically not running the country.

wrong. udd refused further negotiations after 2nd public talk.

whom do you wanna fool?

they were intent on further escalation. they said it. they did it.

[elcent]

Video taken from the red shirt side that shows a projectile launched from red side aimed at skybridge/BTS.

No idea of M79 or just "fireworks".

EDIT: Added URL

quite a good vid. Seem to be the grenades

[sealy]

double post

catapults are all we see in this youtube video. where are the mp79 grenade launchers?????????????????????

[Neurath]

Well these were from my oldest and most trusted friend here in Thailand, someone I have known for 20 years when she was on leave from her job here to work on her masters in the US. And it is a view that many of my Thai friends echo still." I trust her view of the situation here in Thailand past or present far more than I trust that of any farang "expert" including the coup of 2006.

I do know one Thai that had work experience in an amusment park in Florida for 3 months, selling popcorn...

never met a Thai with 'leave' though.

She didn't sell popcorn or anything. The government agency she works for sent her to the US to obtain a master's degree in her field. Perhaps leave wasn't the correct term, because I believe she continued to draw pay and her tuition was paid for her, but I took it that she had leave and I don't know that they paid her during that period. Her job was waiting for her when she returned. She is decidedly yellow in her views but then most of my friends are...

Civil Service Commission Scholarship. Good deal it is too. No salary paid but very respectable stipend (much more than salary.)

[dobadoy]

Video taken from the red shirt side that shows a projectile launched from red side aimed at skybridge/BTS.

No idea of M79 or just "fireworks".

EDIT: Added URL

quite a good vid. Seem to be the grenades

BS - that doesn't show anything at all.

[commons]

Would like to get the Red Forum members opinion on this Thai Actor who was caught with weapons and has now confessed (according to the other English paper) to shooting at the soldiers on April 10, as instructed by the red leadership?

I will believe that when I hear it from his own mouth. Also I am not quite sure he is supposed to have said it was instructed by the red leaders.

A coerced confession, following on from the pathetic propaganda from the government and army. the saddest thing is that people actually believe all this. This must be the only country in the world where EVERYONE admits to the offence under police questioning We also know this police force could not find their own <deleted> with both hands yet we are expected to believe that people just readily admit to offences when questioned by them.

on the other hand if he is guilty then let him be dealt with.

I agree with you there about hearing it first hand. I know it was published in the news updates today (nation) but I mentioned the other paper carrying the story on purpose to preempt the usual 'nation' biased stuff.

yes I don't read the nation, but I have read it in the other paper, I am taking it with a pinch of salt. It is a typical tactic to make the reds think the police and army now know everything. I am sure they aware of the tactics and will not be too worried by the announcement. If they know where all the seized weapons are stored I am sure we would have heard by now from the army on their fantastic raid in recovering the seized weapons.

Pure tactical move by the government in releasing this information. I am sure the actor has been smacked round a little or a lot but doubt he would know the info they are after.

you seem to be on the "inside", tony.

not only do you know about army assessments whether there exists any "weapon storage" (btw, how comes you assume there should be one?) but you also know about a plan and intent to recover seized weapons - and on top you also know about the decision-making process whether that kind of operation would be assessed as reasonable or realistic, right?

also, not only you're in the know about army strategy and tactics, as if you're sitting next to them in meetings. no, you're also in the know about police procedures. so it's not really a big surprise you're also able to tell us about the value of information.

tss tss tss...

[Thai at Heart]

Video taken from the red shirt side that shows a projectile launched from red side aimed at skybridge/BTS.

No idea of M79 or just "fireworks".

EDIT: Added URL

quite a good vid. Seem to be the grenades

Looks like the "projectile" exploded in the air. Interesting that it came from the road above though.

[way2muchcoffee]

Video taken from the red shirt side that shows a projectile launched from red side aimed at skybridge/BTS.

No idea of M79 or just "fireworks".

EDIT: Added URL

quite a good vid. Seem to be the grenades

I'm not so sure. There appears to be a smoke trail following the projectile during the entire flight in the video. It is my understanding that this wouldn't be the case with an M79, but I could be wrong.

Edited April 23, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[commons]

PM Abhisit made a very clear point from start that Government is still opening all the dialogues for Red Shirts but regretfully Red Shirt leaders rejected it. That is the clear reason how the cause series of the life losses & injured ones happened recently. Does Red Shirts realise that? Now it is not surprised that UN urgued both Government and Red shirts to resume the dialogue..... Is the fights enough & time to resume the talks for the sake of everyone.

How can one make something clear from the start that they are still open to talks? Do you mean they made it clear from the start they were open for talks? They were either open from the start or become open later. In this case it was the reds that wanted dialogue but abhisit refused, then he agreed to send representatives, and then eventually he turned up himself. Now since he ordered the murder of Thais he seems to want to talk again but the reds are quite rightly refusing. They stated their case, said what they want, the government said what they want, it reached a stalemate.

So now we have abhisit wanting to negotiate with terrorists, why? are they terrorists or are they not terrorists? What does he want to negotiate? the same time scale? No point in negotiating. His time is up, he is just delaying the inevitable and putting more lives at risk, but I suppose that is easy to do when you are sat in an army barracks basically not running the country.

I thought the red leaders were willing to negotiate if the troops left. Wasn't that the last statement regarding negotiations?

Do you have proof that Abhisit "ordered the murder of Thais" as you put it?

Isn't Abhisit willing to negotiate for the good of the country, rather than "wanting to negotiate with terrorists"? And there is obvioulsy a terrosit element within the red shirts groups.

You are speculating that Abhisit wants to negotiate the same time scale. You don't know what he is willing to negotiate.

Abhisit is doing nothing for the good of the country, he is doing what he is doing to prolong his ill gained rise to the premiership. Also there is not OBVIOUSLY a terrorist group associated to the reds, there is if you buy the government propoganda, but those of us that are a little more sceptical see this for what it is, an attempt to discredit the reds, a few casualties on the way to doing this is a small price to pay for the government/army/yellows etc.

1) i've posted about several policies implemented by Abhisit gov not only to ease grievances of disenafranchised, but also long-term structural attempts to heal social divide. you're spewing hate, blinding yourself.

2) i'ts just today that "Seh Daeng" announced the "unsung warriors" who had helped "red shirts" had all gone home. he said it, to claim, _no_ red shirt "warriors/terrorists" had been involved in silom bombing. btw - i suggest you do some own research, ok?

3) you say, "but those of us that are a little more sceptical see this for what it is" - thank you tony, i'm not one of the "us" you try to evoke. i just disagree with your mind-spin.

[humfurry]

Video taken from the red shirt side that shows a projectile launched from red side aimed at skybridge/BTS.

No idea of M79 or just "fireworks".

EDIT: Added URL

quite a good vid. Seem to be the grenades

Looks like the "projectile" exploded in the air. Interesting that it came from the road above though.

Listen rather than look. Did you hear the distortion of the shot on the vid? It was close to the cameras mic I think.

Edited April 23, 2010 by humfurry

[sealy]

A farmer from Issan ??? I dont beleive with what i know about a m-79 could be that good with it. I used one in Viet nam , you have to know waht you are doing to hit a target with it ////

haven't you heard that before aldrin took his first one step on the moon that an isaan farmer was playing on the moon and lost a few marbles there which NASA subsequently picked up as moon rocks and brought them back to cape kennedy?

no kidding, am sure a farmer fired that m-79 as the thai media would have us believe like before.....

[kissdani]

Lets be pratical here. To avoid further deaths and injuries and save the spiraling downward economy, something is going to have to happen to make the reds go home. Military actions are just NOT going to work. You might kill hundreds of them and push them out of their current location, but they will just regroup elsewhere with even MORE determination and cause havoc elsewhere. Censor more of their media (its all censored now anyway) and that will just piss them off even MORE and strengthen their resolve even MORE.

So what you are suggesting is that government submit to a violent minority mob?

So, in the future, when a small group doesn't get what they want, they just hold a city hostage, and the government will just do exactly what they are asking.

You should know your Abhisit. In the past and in the opposition Abhisit actually came up with the same suggestion in similar situations.

In the past Abhisit hold also nice speeches promising a free media. But now more and more radiostations getting closed, on an average 200-500 URLs per day blocked and the MICT sleuthhound focus on politically seditious websites. And on state-owned Television they show me only a fifth of the truth, manipulated, one-sided, canting.

If you dare to call Abhisit 'unusual rich' you will face a 12-month jail term

Technical Abhisit may be a legitimate PM, he is able to barely survive a censure motion.

I know it is hard for you to understand, but believe that is not the only thing, a small majority + a smirk in the face not enough to proceed. THis government isn't healthy.

In all other aspects that make a PM to a PM, a real country leader Abhisit is a miserable failure. He chose the wrong friends.

THe coalition is on the brink, the dissolution of the democrats will come in the the next few month.

Abhisit isn't The Man anymore. He is a disappointment.

Abhisit will not win. It's over. The question is when he will recognise this.

Nothing will become better now, things start to get worse and worse. He totally underestimated the reds, ignored them. A big mistake. He chosed confrontation instead of cooperation, that is not the way to achieve unity and strengthen Thailand with that unity.

It is time now for a government of national unity. Lots of the reds are moderate people. try to get them.

The growing chaos is a breeding ground for extremists. That is a bigger danger.

[commons]

If there is no terrorist element within the Red Shirts, and i willing to accept if i am mistaken, then why do i see so many photographs and video of red shirts in violent situations with weapons.

Are you suggesting that the government or Army are firing grenades at their own people in an attempt to win sympathy?

That picture is so old I am surprised it is not black and white. And yes, I am suggesting that the government are not adverse to collateral damage if it boosts their cause. It would not be the first time and I am sure it will not be the last.

Old or not it shows a red shirt protestor with a rather scary looking weapon!

Ok, i can understand you sceptism about the terrorist within the Red camps. However, you must agree that there is a bad elepment to any political movement. those people who see opportunites like this to cause trouble and get away with it under the baner of 'fighting for justice' and you must also surely agree that there are a few of these poeople with the red's, surely?

I try and see both sides to be perfectly honest, however in this matter i seem to come down on the side of the reds. I have no doubt whatsoever that there are undesirables in the red movement, but I also know from fact (wifes family, not isaan, from just outside bangkok, professional people, not paid to be there) hat there are good people there and there for a cause.

My belief is that everything is not as it seems, even the government has hinted at a third hand trying to destabilise the process, so it could be one of three, the reds doing it, the government doing it, or a third hand with something to gain.

We all know the people will not tolerate another coup so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that the army are involved and then they can come charging in to save the country with everyone thanking them for performing a coup and saving the country.

There are a few possibilities, and until we know for definite I feel it a little harsh the way the reads are spoken about, usually by the people when I have read back on the forum that seems to think the yellows actions were perfectly reasonable.

there is a fair bit of hypocrisy on here mate and I like to play devils advocate, like above someone comments that the reds fired the grenades, let that guy get his witness statement down to the police station, or is it just speculation?

When we are all dealing with opinions what makes another poster thing his opinions are any more valid that mine? can you see my point.

no

[ThailandLovr]

I've got this (strange) feeling now. With the Army saying no force will be used to disperse, it took all the air out of the sails of fury. Now, the Reds say they will accept 30 days and want to negotiate tonight. A huge weight feels lifted.

I think it may all be over soon -- peacefully -- anybody else feel this way?

[LevelHead]

Good offer from the Reds.

Dissolve House in 30 days. Followed by 60 days of campaigns before election.

Meaning elections in 90 days from now.

Excellent, lets hope Abhisit and his cronies do not now spit in the face of the people and refuse this offer. It will look very bad on them if they do.

[commons]

I think it is more to do with not allowing the dems to hold the military reshuffle, if a 'dem' general gets to head the army then it is hard for the reds in the future, and vice versa

Getting close now, if Team Yellow get their way and rig the reshuffle how they want, then there will never be another election.

There will be a coup once the reshuffle is done.

Then "New Politics" will be introduced where the government is 60% "appointed" and only 40% "elected" meaning never again will any elected Political Party be able to control the country, the country will forever be run by an "appointed" government majority.

Appointed by, well, the "old money" Elite, or Team Yellow for want of other words.

LH, as usual, thanks for some brilliant transmission from the future. you've been there, you witnessed it - and you shared with us. thanks again!

[Thai at Heart]

Listen rather than look. Did you hear the distortion of the shot on the vid? It was close to the cameras mic I think.

At 1:00 there is a flash and bang from the other side of the road and then someone appears to throw something from the camera/red side that has a small smoke trail that explodes maybe 10 m ahead of them. Doesn't appear to come off the road, you are correct. Difficult to gauge perspective.

Seems like flash bangs to me.

[commons]

YAWN... every MP was elected next!

But not every cabinet member. And if all it needs is to be elected to become the government then why bother having different parties, EVERY MP should be the government. Oh wait, that is why there are constituencies and the party that wins most seats normally manages to form the government, either outright or as a coalition. Considering the Dems did not win enough seats to manage to do either then we can assume that the voters did not want them in power, if the voters wanted them then they could have on an election . However the party that did win was disbanded for vote buying, the dems despite being guilty of vote buying were not disbanded, they simply took their money and BOUGHT coalition partners in order to get a majority in order to govern the country.

So despite the fact that every MP was elected, it is clear the current government were NOT elected, if they were we would not have this mess now.

If you had read the post he does not say the MPs were not elected, he says the government were not elected, maybe you should have answered that one rather than go off at a tangent.

nope. that's not the way representative parliamentary democracy works.

[sealy]

Would like to get the Red Forum members opinion on this Thai Actor who was caught with weapons and has now confessed (according to the other English paper) to shooting at the soldiers on April 10, as instructed by the red leadership?

cruxcify him first, then forgive him like christ did with the thief hanging next to him.....

otherwise throw him in the oven like hitler did with jews...

or rape him like the church priests did with the young novices acoss europe and north america and get the pope to help explain later....