Thailand Could Deteriorate Into Undeclared Civil War

[Steely Dan]

EDIT: Actually, that's wrong. The Chinese don't seem to hate the Malays, and more or less, simply don't give a shit. After all, they own the economy, and they know it, so don't seem to care what the Malays think.

Well, when you are milking a cow there is no point looking at it's face. Leaving aside any issues Chinese and Malays may have with each other Singapore seems to function pretty well without having the purest of democracies. Perhaps the Thais should re-consider whether they really want democracy - it might mean having to stop at zebra crossings.

[Humungus]

It would not be necessary to plead for the government to be patient and have restraint if the reds ended their protest. If the reds went home the threat of violence would evaporate. If the reds went home their elderly and children would be safe and Seh Daeng and the terrorists could not hide behind them. If the reds went home normal life could return to Bangkok and lots of people, including people from the north could return to their jobs here in Bangkok. If the reds went home there would be no more gun battles on the streets, no more hospitals invaded. The end of the protests could be the beginning of the road to an election.

As long as they stay things only get worse and more dangerous. Not one of them needs to be shot or injured. If the red leaders could put the interests of their followers above their own interests this could all be over. Come on reds, you've done enough damage, sleep in your own bed tonight, go home.

[pimay11]

It would not be necessary to plead for the government to be patient and have restraint if the reds ended their protest. If the reds went home the threat of violence would evaporate. If the reds went home their elderly and children would be safe and Seh Daeng and the terrorists could not hide behind them. If the reds went home normal life could return to Bangkok and lots of people, including people from the north could return to their jobs here in Bangkok. If the reds went home there would be no more gun battles on the streets, no more hospitals invaded. The end of the protests could be the beginning of the road to an election.

As long as they stay things only get worse and more dangerous. Not one of them needs to be shot or injured. If the red leaders could put the interests of their followers above their own interests this could all be over. Come on reds, you've done enough damage, sleep in your own bed tonight, go home.

Well it will all be over in twelve more days. Jutaporn and Nattuwat promised the red leaders with outstanding arrest warrents to give themselves up to the police on May 15th. And as we all know these guy's word is their bond. They never speak anything except the truth .

[Jerrytheyoung]

/..../

The UDD had earlier briefed members of the diplomatic community and invited them to visit the movement's main rally site at the upscale Ratchaprasong intersection. Many took up the invitation.

In a note circulated to the diplomatic corps the day after his meeting with the minister, Rodriguez quoted the minister as saying that "any association by foreign governments with Thaksin will be viewed by Thailand as undermining bilateral relations".

In a sharp rebuke, the Thai minister added: "A group of ambassadors had been spreading false information about the royal family, voicing opposition to the constitutional monarchy through the Internet, and making irresponsible statements on the government's handling of the ongoing protests."

This had "gone beyond the limits of diplomatic practice and were unacceptable to the Thai government", Mr Kasit was quoted as saying.

First, it shows that even if you try to block some medias... Thai government can only block partly information. This is the modern world and old practices are no more efficient. The world is talking about what we cannot even murmure here. When freedom of speech is shackled, History shows that it will bounce back sooner or later

Secondly, we are still in a confrontation phase, and in the short term there is no hope that the situation improves

Thirdly, if you want the red Shirts go home, some proposals must be put on the table... for the moment only struggles are on the agenda

[gregb]

I asked a few people last time I went up to visit my inlaws, if the choice came down to abandoning the protest in Bangkok and fighting through the legislature, vs. taking up arms and killing people in a bloody civil war, which do you think the red leaders should do?

Not a single person wanted war. Not one. They all said move and fight in a different way before doing that. Of course, these are the people who are not being brainwashed by hate speeches at a protest site all day, every day. I just wish my Thai was better so I could have had a more involved discussion with them.

Yes, the reds have some perceived injustices. Some of them valid, some of them highly exaggerated by the red propaganda machine, but the people who want war are a very, very small percentage of the population. The only people who want war are a very hard line extreme element who stand to get back in power. The faster this extreme element is silenced, the better it will be for all Thai people of all colours. Civil war will only break out if the government fails to do its job in silencing this violent faction. The longer you let this brainwashing go on, the more people catch the disease.

For the good of the country, the red riots need to be put down. Quickly and using overwhelming force. I disagree with some of the posters here that think this will lead to a bloody uprising. The support for that simply isn't there among the population. Nobody wants that, and they will continue not wanting it if the violent hate mongers within their ranks are cut off.

The people of Issan are not strong enough to wrest themselves away from this evil faction which is driving them to ruin. All of us have to help them, even if they don't understand or appreciate why this is necessary.

[animatic]

All these recent post explain why Abhisit and Anupong prefer to take the heat for appearing weak,

when in reality they are being quite strong in taking that heat and giving the Reds enough rope

to hang themselves, very publicly, in the eys of the majority of Thais. Even those red leaning are

having a sea change in their support for this particular group espousing some of their wishes.

They may like some of their ideas being brought home, but at the same time are afraid,

that those wishes will now be saddled to the image of a group with terrorists in their midst.

In other words the Red Shirt leaders have gone way too far, are visibly losing control of their players,

and because of the real terrorist zealots using them for cover, and the red leaders not rooting out

those truly over the top elements, it ties their real legitimate desires to a violent rogue group,

and that image may well be very long lasting and a severe detriment to their aims.

And add to that that the mechanisms of mind control used to hold the fervor up at the rallies,

has inculcated a do or die, violent mindset; fight to the last minute, all opponents are murderers,

If we don't 'defend our territory' we lose, even if that 'public space' is no more theirs than any other Thai's.

They have also lowered the moral strictures of this red sub-society so far that;

Slander and defamation is a daily bill of fare on all red stages

Hospital invasion is justified for Payap to save face,

Body snatching is OK to show off your artificially (ronin) created martyrs,

Shooting at riot forces is OK

Stabbing police with bamboo spears is an act of patriotism

Taking over any public space at will is their right

Free speech for others is their right to control

Creating a mini-state within a public space that only they control is ok

Insurrection talk or creating a New Thai State is a daily ocurrance

Acting on this treasonous talk is lauded

Preparations to set tire fires and start a conflagration is considered fair play and their right to do.

Take orders, or pretend to take orders from a convicted thief in self induced exile.

The relativism of this moral stance is despicable and so totally ingrain in some minds,

that negotiations of not a hydra head of guerrilla warriorswill be unleashed on much of Thailand

regardless of their Red Leaders agreeing to end the stalemate. The minset is pervasive.

' We have lost, our leaders betrayed us, we must get revenge.' So Bangkok burns.

What a wonderful new state Thaksin has brought for the betterment of Thai people.

[viking75]

Whenever there is an election, the reds win.

The wrong people keep winning the elections and have to be replaced by the elite.

Many of the elite rulers aren't even full blood Thais (part chinese), most of the reds are 100 percent full blood Thai.

Previously in countries when a small group, often from a different ethnic background to the majority, gained too much power there was an inevitable 'ethnic cleansing'

Jewish people in Germany

Pakistani people in Uganda

White people in Rhodesia

To name but a few. A bloodbath is almost inevitable IMHO.

The only thing delaying this bloodbath is their/our love for the King, let's all pray he lives to be 100.

If Seh-Daeng took charge of the Country it would God forbid give a disturbing echo to events 35 years ago when Pol Pot marched into Phnom Penh in Apr 75. Is Thaksin originally of Chinese origin by the way? Whether he is or isn't you can see how this could turn into a scapegoating exercise based on ethnic origin. Back to my Lord of the Flies analogy - If you can get people to believe in absurdities you can get them to commit atrocities.

The current situation needs careful management, if the reds are seen to get their way it sets a terrible precedent, on the other hand if the system based on privilege, nepotism and keeping the masses uneducated continues then the current unrest can flare up again at any time, especially due to possible future events we can't discuss.

This goes the same way i think. protests, put down many times and elections overthow by army and elite. every times the protest get stronger and people at top more extreme.

this time people know not fear army and police is on side of people so now only army can help governement. army not want to help because have done everything already they can do. matrial law only take us back to 2006 and problem worse because army know they cannot run country properly.

if this protest put down then will come back worse next time and armed for sure.

problems of power elite need to be sort out now

[Oberkommando]

All these recent post explain why Abhisit and Anupong prefer to take the heat for appearing weak,

when in reality they are being quite strong in taking that heat and giving the Reds enough rope

to hang themselves, very publicly, in the eys of the majority of Thais. Even those red leaning are

having a sea change in their support for this particular group espousing some of their wishes.

The government has absolutely no control!

Saying they are strong and winning the battle is up there with your comments about the red rallies not lasting a day, or not being able to attract people in numbers.

You should maybe consider that their attempt at a bloody crackdown failed and now they are in a no-win position.

They have shown their hand far too early and now they are trying to bluff.

[dhrobertson]

If the people that are charged with up-holding the law etc did their job as they are supposed to, there wouldn't be any need for anyone to do anything other than their day-to-day job.

If those that are supposed to uphold the law, any we all know who they are, actually did so a lot of Thailand's problems would be solved.

I think it is a little deeper than this...to be legitimate laws have to be applied to everybody, they have to be enforced routinely, and the judiciary must be impartial...none of these criteria apply to Thailand....

The elite are above the law and are not held accountable for illegal activities, and this erodes respect for the law amongst the rest of the population; law enforcement is spotty and politically motivated; and I don't think people see the judiciary as impartial...it can move at lightening pace or at a snail's pace depending on the what the powerful want...

The Constitution is the foundation of law in any country, and confers legitimacy on the lawmakers, while placing limits about what may or may not be brought into law....think of how the Americans love their constitution.

The current constitution in Thailand was approved by referendum in which 59% of voters, voted for it...why on earth would this not be seen to be legitimate? The answer is because the junta (who wrote the constitution) made criticism of it a criminal offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison, and made it illegal to campaign against it, while pouring billions of baht into a 'vote yes' campaign. If Gordon Brown held a referendum on a law to be introduced in the UK and forbade any criticism of the law under pain of imprisonment, people in Britain would, rightly, not see that referendum as a legitimate expression of the will of the people (and neither would the vast majority of the farangs on this forum)...thus even the foundation of the law that confers legitimacy has been compromised.

Let's see .... where to start .....

The courts try cases that are brought before them. They try cases based upon the facts and merits of each individual case. To claim that the courts are supposed to do more or less than this is spurious. Courts do make mistakes (self-admitted about the 2001 asetts concealment case against Thaksin --- the exact case that brought the term "double-standards" into common use in Thailand). There was no mistake in disbanding TRT or PPP. Both were caught red-handed in electoral fraud.

You mention democracies and the constitution and checks and balances ---- When Thaksin was taken from power by the military in 2006 --- he was a caretaker PM that had resigned (extra-constitutional) for a government that called elections early to try and whitewash its crimes (Thaksin's crimes and TRT 's crimes). Because this caretaker government could not seat a new government in the time allotted it became extra-constitutional in a second way (time frame). The fact that Thaksin eroded the checks and balances in the 1997 constitution is not argued because it is simply true. That the 1997 constitution failed to rein in Thaksin twice at the end of his tenure is also true. The military threw out the baby with the bathwater when it tossed out the entire 1997 constitution.

BUT what they did do is return democracy to the people in about a year --- after drafting a new constitution that the people had a referendum on. Sucks that many didn't vote but part of a democracy in many places is the right NOT to vote. Not crying about the results of not voting is part of that game though.

Now -- how to fix the military's constitution? There are 2 ways -- draft a new one ... or charter revision ...

The PPP wanted to do charter revision unilaterally (much like your complaints about the military having final say about the version that went to the people to be voted on) except -- they never did call for a referendum --- PPP just wanted to change it.

The Democrats on the other hand have called for reform of the constitution as part of a group process INCLUDING the opposition and all parts of society and a referendum on any changes. In other words the democrats want to make changes based upon the contributions of all parts of society -- PPP wanted to help Thaksin. Which of those 2 ways are "democratic"? PTP is not wanting charter reform to be done with the democrats at the wheel ... PTP is the thaksin crony party that followed PPP .... If A=B and B=C --- then A=C right?

So, how do we settle things?

The legitimate protest can go on --- in a place that is safe and does not disrupt the rights of others. The terrorists and insurgents and traitors get tried and dealt with by the courts.

The constitution gets reformed by The People --- not just PTP --- and gets voted on again.

New elections are held when the political environment in Thailand allows ... should be less than a year --- and will still be EARLY elections by about a year.

What an excellent analysis. I fully agree.

However, I do think a number of changes to the constitution are required. I don't like these big constituencies where people get more than one vote.

Also, if there is a change in prime minister, particularly where he comes from a different party, then a new mandate should be sought, say, within 12 months.

[pimay11]

All these recent post explain why Abhisit and Anupong prefer to take the heat for appearing weak,

when in reality they are being quite strong in taking that heat and giving the Reds enough rope

to hang themselves, very publicly, in the eys of the majority of Thais. Even those red leaning are

having a sea change in their support for this particular group espousing some of their wishes.

The government has absolutely no control!

Saying they are strong and winning the battle is up there with your comments about the red rallies not lasting a day, or not being able to attract people in numbers.

You should maybe consider that their attempt at a bloody crackdown failed and now they are in a no-win position.

They have shown their hand far too early and now they are trying to bluff.

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question? What is the reason the red leaders are unwilling to accept the government offer of elections in six months? Why does the red leaders demand immediate house dissolusion?

[Oberkommando]

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question?

I am a supporter of neither reds nor any other colour or faction.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Oberkommando

[dhrobertson]

Hola! Hola! Hola!

Before declaring the Red shirts a band of murderers, terrorists... Cool down. They are people embarked in a spiralling of violence and the Government is far to be fully clean in this story. We are under stress of propaganda from both sides, and at the outcome, few months later, we will have some surprises about the actions done by both sides.. Please refrain to give so strong judgment in the middle of the crisis, we have only part of the information and we are under flow of propaganda.

1- Northern Population has something to say, something very deep coming from the bowels; so they will say it and even some are ready to put their life in balance: it is a very strong comitment, I will say an exceptional one.

2- When the violence starts, even usually very reasonable people may be geared in the mechanisms, even nearly a whole population may drift (Example Germans during WWII or Serbians recently). Basically people are like you and me, they are not murderers or terrorists but they are dragged in the stream.... they fight for their believings and the fight is becoming more and more violent, they forget the normalcy, the abnormal is becoming day after day the reference. How many people are able to resist? The first thing is to stay cool and relativise all those events, comparing with similar situations, trying to understand both parties and find the way to defuse not to fuel the situation. Overreaction drives to more violence which may become uncontrollable

3- Inside the Group, the moderate leaders are probably loosing grip which can be considerate as normal in such a crowd process.

4- For the "Va-en-guerre" people of this forum, (Those who want an immediate and strong military operations), just think about the consequences in Northern Thailand if hundred of people are killed: each family will have a strong reason to join the insurrection, and yes, then, we will be spiralling definitively in the real Civil war.

Please we have to remain "Civil", to stay cool and to think that if we were in their position maybe we will not react differently.

To keep his own criticism is already very difficult for highly educated people.

The solution is through the dialog. Strong actions will not solve the problem, just may postpone it and in such a case, with a Damocles sword over Thailand, investors will flee to better stable skies: it will be the end of the good fortune.....

I think this is quite possibly the best post you have ever made Jerry. It is very easy to forget one's values in the heat of anger, fear, hostility, and violence. Thank you for pointing this out.

Outstanding post that shows compassion and a deep understanding of history. I wish I had wrote it myself! I think the Red shirts are very susceptible to a Nazi like situation. I am not trying to be a chicken little here. We have a powerful charismatic leader "Thaksin" Widespread feelings of injustice, unemployment and hopelessness. As Jerry said increasing violence is slowly becoming the norm. Many will lose site of right and wrong as they get caught up in what it takes to survive another day. This could get very ugly very fast. A big difference however is the world is more connected these days and we probably would see some 1st world intervention before we had anything like the holocaust but all the seeds of such an outcome are there.

Well said Jerry! Wise words indeed

[pimay11]

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question?

I am a supporter of neither reds or any other colour.

Fair enough. I retract the statment you are a red supporter. But can you please to the best of your ability answer the two questions? Your thoughts?

[animatic]

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question?

I am a supporter of neither reds nor any other colour or faction.

While most of your posting history seems to give aid and succor to the Reds.

But that is less fashionable now.

[dhrobertson]

All these recent post explain why Abhisit and Anupong prefer to take the heat for appearing weak,

when in reality they are being quite strong in taking that heat and giving the Reds enough rope

to hang themselves, very publicly, in the eys of the majority of Thais. Even those red leaning are

having a sea change in their support for this particular group espousing some of their wishes.

They may like some of their ideas being brought home, but at the same time are afraid,

that those wishes will now be saddled to the image of a group with terrorists in their midst.

In other words the Red Shirt leaders have gone way too far, are visibly losing control of their players,

and because of the real terrorist zealots using them for cover, and the red leaders not rooting out

those truly over the top elements, it ties their real legitimate desires to a violent rogue group,

and that image may well be very long lasting and a severe detriment to their aims.

And add to that that the mechanisms of mind control used to hold the fervor up at the rallies,

has inculcated a do or die, violent mindset; fight to the last minute, all opponents are murderers,

If we don't 'defend our territory' we lose, even if that 'public space' is no more theirs than any other Thai's.

They have also lowered the moral strictures of this red sub-society so far that;

Slander and defamation is a daily bill of fare on all red stages

Hospital invasion is justified for Payap to save face,

Body snatching is OK to show off your artificially (ronin) created martyrs,

Shooting at riot forces is OK

Stabbing police with bamboo spears is an act of patriotism

Taking over any public space at will is their right

Free speech for others is their right to control

Creating a mini-state within a public space that only they control is ok

Insurrection talk or creating a New Thai State is a daily ocurrance

Acting on this treasonous talk is lauded

Preparations to set tire fires and start a conflagration is considered fair play and their right to do.

Take orders, or pretend to take orders from a convicted thief in self induced exile.

The relativism of this moral stance is despicable and so totally ingrain in some minds,

that negotiations of not a hydra head of guerrilla warriorswill be unleashed on much of Thailand

regardless of their Red Leaders agreeing to end the stalemate. The minset is pervasive.

' We have lost, our leaders betrayed us, we must get revenge.' So Bangkok burns.

What a wonderful new state Thaksin has brought for the betterment of Thai people.

My goodness, there are some terrific posts on here today.

[viking75]

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question?

I am a supporter of neither reds nor any other colour or faction.

Why do anon people seem to think they can demand answers to questions that look like posed by children.

Big problems coming this week. can be violence and move reds or maybe somebody move government and set up in Bangkok when abhisit is hiding behind army skirts.

[dhrobertson]

All these recent post explain why Abhisit and Anupong prefer to take the heat for appearing weak,

when in reality they are being quite strong in taking that heat and giving the Reds enough rope

to hang themselves, very publicly, in the eys of the majority of Thais. Even those red leaning are

having a sea change in their support for this particular group espousing some of their wishes.

The government has absolutely no control!

Saying they are strong and winning the battle is up there with your comments about the red rallies not lasting a day, or not being able to attract people in numbers.

You should maybe consider that their attempt at a bloody crackdown failed and now they are in a no-win position.

They have shown their hand far too early and now they are trying to bluff.

I beg to differ.

Seems to me that the inb-reds have played directly into Abisits wise hands.

They have completely lost the PR battle and all credibility with it. You must have noticed that the red apologists have total disappeared from these boards

Don't get me wrong, though, I fully agree that major changes are required and I believe constitutional changes will be required to enable fair elections.

[pimay11]

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question?

I am a supporter of neither reds nor any other colour or faction.

Why do anon people seem to think they can demand answers to questions that look like posed by children.

Big problems coming this week. can be violence and move reds or maybe somebody move government and set up in Bangkok when abhisit is hiding behind army skirts.

No demands my friend. Just a simple request. Out of courtesy I will ignore the "look like posed by children" part of your post.

[dhrobertson]

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question?

I am a supporter of neither reds nor any other colour or faction.

Why do anon people seem to think they can demand answers to questions that look like posed by children.

Big problems coming this week. can be violence and move reds or maybe somebody move government and set up in Bangkok when abhisit is hiding behind army skirts.

And there we were, having a sensible discussion like adults.

I think government will continue biding their time.

However, I would not be surprised to see special force snatch squads being used to gradually de-capitate the red hydra!

[gymboy33]

If the people that are charged with up-holding the law etc did their job as they are supposed to, there wouldn't be any need for anyone to do anything other than their day-to-day job.

If those that are supposed to uphold the law, any we all know who they are, actually did so a lot of Thailand's problems would be solved.

I think it is a little deeper than this...to be legitimate laws have to be applied to everybody, they have to be enforced routinely, and the judiciary must be impartial...none of these criteria apply to Thailand....

The elite are above the law and are not held accountable for illegal activities, and this erodes respect for the law amongst the rest of the population; law enforcement is spotty and politically motivated; and I don't think people see the judiciary as impartial...it can move at lightening pace or at a snail's pace depending on the what the powerful want...

The Constitution is the foundation of law in any country, and confers legitimacy on the lawmakers, while placing limits about what may or may not be brought into law....think of how the Americans love their constitution.

The current constitution in Thailand was approved by referendum in which 59% of voters, voted for it...why on earth would this not be seen to be legitimate? The answer is because the junta (who wrote the constitution) made criticism of it a criminal offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison, and made it illegal to campaign against it, while pouring billions of baht into a 'vote yes' campaign. If Gordon Brown held a referendum on a law to be introduced in the UK and forbade any criticism of the law under pain of imprisonment, people in Britain would, rightly, not see that referendum as a legitimate expression of the will of the people (and neither would the vast majority of the farangs on this forum)...thus even the foundation of the law that confers legitimacy has been compromised.

i wonder why the dem party didnt want to change any of this "constitution"??

[eurasianthai]

It is too late to come back to the status quo.

I actually expect quite a few protests/counter protests for some time to come.

We'd better get used to it..

Edited May 2, 2010 by eurasianthai

[dhrobertson]

All these recent post explain why Abhisit and Anupong prefer to take the heat for appearing weak,

when in reality they are being quite strong in taking that heat and giving the Reds enough rope

to hang themselves, very publicly, in the eys of the majority of Thais. Even those red leaning are

having a sea change in their support for this particular group espousing some of their wishes.

The government has absolutely no control!

Saying they are strong and winning the battle is up there with your comments about the red rallies not lasting a day, or not being able to attract people in numbers.

You should maybe consider that their attempt at a bloody crackdown failed and now they are in a no-win position.

They have shown their hand far too early and now they are trying to bluff.

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question? What is the reason the red leaders are unwilling to accept the government offer of elections in six months? Why does the red leaders demand immediate house dissolusion?

Come on Oberkommando and Viking73 please answer the questions.

I am not anon and think the questions are entirely valid.

I have been asking what do the red shirts actually want? for days now and have received no answer.

The reds have lost all ctredibility in my view

[hammered]

If the people that are charged with up-holding the law etc did their job as they are supposed to, there wouldn't be any need for anyone to do anything other than their day-to-day job.

If those that are supposed to uphold the law, any we all know who they are, actually did so a lot of Thailand's problems would be solved.

I think it is a little deeper than this...to be legitimate laws have to be applied to everybody, they have to be enforced routinely, and the judiciary must be impartial...none of these criteria apply to Thailand....

The elite are above the law and are not held accountable for illegal activities, and this erodes respect for the law amongst the rest of the population; law enforcement is spotty and politically motivated; and I don't think people see the judiciary as impartial...it can move at lightening pace or at a snail's pace depending on the what the powerful want...

The Constitution is the foundation of law in any country, and confers legitimacy on the lawmakers, while placing limits about what may or may not be brought into law....think of how the Americans love their constitution.

The current constitution in Thailand was approved by referendum in which 59% of voters, voted for it...why on earth would this not be seen to be legitimate? The answer is because the junta (who wrote the constitution) made criticism of it a criminal offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison, and made it illegal to campaign against it, while pouring billions of baht into a 'vote yes' campaign. If Gordon Brown held a referendum on a law to be introduced in the UK and forbade any criticism of the law under pain of imprisonment, people in Britain would, rightly, not see that referendum as a legitimate expression of the will of the people (and neither would the vast majority of the farangs on this forum)...thus even the foundation of the law that confers legitimacy has been compromised.

The UK aint such a good example to use as it aint got no written constitution. Hey there's an idea. Longest running democracy in the world and no constitution needed. Wonder how that works.....

[animatic]

All these recent post explain why Abhisit and Anupong prefer to take the heat for appearing weak,

when in reality they are being quite strong in taking that heat and giving the Reds enough rope

to hang themselves, very publicly, in the eys of the majority of Thais. Even those red leaning are

having a sea change in their support for this particular group espousing some of their wishes.

They may like some of their ideas being brought home, but at the same time are afraid,

that those wishes will now be saddled to the image of a group with terrorists in their midst.

In other words the Red Shirt leaders have gone way too far, are visibly losing control of their players,

and because of the real terrorist zealots using them for cover, and the red leaders not rooting out

those truly over the top elements, it ties their real legitimate desires to a violent rogue group,

and that image may well be very long lasting and a severe detriment to their aims.

And add to that that the mechanisms of mind control used to hold the fervor up at the rallies,

has inculcated a do or die, violent mindset; fight to the last minute, all opponents are murderers,

If we don't 'defend our territory' we lose, even if that 'public space' is no more theirs than any other Thai's.

They have also lowered the moral strictures of this red sub-society so far that;

Slander and defamation is a daily bill of fare on all red stages

Hospital invasion is justified for Payap to save face,

Body snatching is OK to show off your artificially (ronin) created martyrs,

Shooting at riot forces is OK

Stabbing police with bamboo spears is an act of patriotism

Taking over any public space at will is their right

Free speech for others is their right to control

Creating a mini-state within a public space that only they control is ok

Insurrection talk or creating a New Thai State is a daily occurrence

Acting on this treasonous talk is lauded

Preparations to set tire fires and start a conflagration is considered fair play and their right to do.

Take orders, or pretend to take orders from a convicted thief in self induced exile.

The relativism of this moral stance is despicable, and so totally ingrained in some minds,

that negotiations or not, a hydra head of guerrilla warriors will be unleashed on much of Thailand,

regardless of their Red Leaders agreeing to end the stalemate. The mindset is pervasive.

' We have lost, our leaders betrayed us, we must get revenge.' So Bangkok burns.

What a wonderful new state Thaksin has brought for the betterment of Thai people.

My goodness, there are some terrific posts on here today.

Thanks dhr

I got dragged away by real life towards the end and just touched up the 2nd to last paragraph,

for spelling and punctuation.

[viking75]

All these recent post explain why Abhisit and Anupong prefer to take the heat for appearing weak,

when in reality they are being quite strong in taking that heat and giving the Reds enough rope

to hang themselves, very publicly, in the eys of the majority of Thais. Even those red leaning are

having a sea change in their support for this particular group espousing some of their wishes.

The government has absolutely no control!

Saying they are strong and winning the battle is up there with your comments about the red rallies not lasting a day, or not being able to attract people in numbers.

You should maybe consider that their attempt at a bloody crackdown failed and now they are in a no-win position.

They have shown their hand far too early and now they are trying to bluff.

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question? What is the reason the red leaders are unwilling to accept the government offer of elections in six months? Why does the red leaders demand immediate house dissolusion?

Come on Oberkommando and Viking73 please answer the questions.

I am not anon and think the questions are entirely valid.

I have been asking what do the red shirts actually want? for days now and have received no answer.

The reds have lost all ctredibility in my view

so. only you don't know this because you never look outside of propaganda.

Now please answer stupid question for me. Why do you ask question that you can easy find answer to if you only try a bit. and 2nd what time do bars close in Saigon as i go for visa run next week and need beer because arrive late.

nobody has to answer questions from yellow appologiser thank you

But just because you miss it 1000 times. The goverment is want to put its men into all positions in court army and police as shuffle is due then. Sorry that even a thai child knows this but a clever falang not know.

Edited May 2, 2010 by viking75

[dhrobertson]

If the people that are charged with up-holding the law etc did their job as they are supposed to, there wouldn't be any need for anyone to do anything other than their day-to-day job.

If those that are supposed to uphold the law, any we all know who they are, actually did so a lot of Thailand's problems would be solved.

I think it is a little deeper than this...to be legitimate laws have to be applied to everybody, they have to be enforced routinely, and the judiciary must be impartial...none of these criteria apply to Thailand....

The elite are above the law and are not held accountable for illegal activities, and this erodes respect for the law amongst the rest of the population; law enforcement is spotty and politically motivated; and I don't think people see the judiciary as impartial...it can move at lightening pace or at a snail's pace depending on the what the powerful want...

The Constitution is the foundation of law in any country, and confers legitimacy on the lawmakers, while placing limits about what may or may not be brought into law....think of how the Americans love their constitution.

The current constitution in Thailand was approved by referendum in which 59% of voters, voted for it...why on earth would this not be seen to be legitimate? The answer is because the junta (who wrote the constitution) made criticism of it a criminal offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison, and made it illegal to campaign against it, while pouring billions of baht into a 'vote yes' campaign. If Gordon Brown held a referendum on a law to be introduced in the UK and forbade any criticism of the law under pain of imprisonment, people in Britain would, rightly, not see that referendum as a legitimate expression of the will of the people (and neither would the vast majority of the farangs on this forum)...thus even the foundation of the law that confers legitimacy has been compromised.

i wonder why the dem party didnt want to change any of this "constitution"??

Yes, very fair point.

I for one don't like the big constituencies.

Whereas I am a strong supporter of Abhisit and Korn, I have severe doubts about some of their collegues. Needless to say, I have no time for some of their coalition partners. Who knows what they stand for anyway? What are the policies of Chart Thai Pattana (except for wanting a slice of the pie) for example?

[pimay11]

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question?

I am a supporter of neither reds nor any other colour or faction.

Why do anon people seem to think they can demand answers to questions that look like posed by children.

Big problems coming this week. can be violence and move reds or maybe somebody move government and set up in Bangkok when abhisit is hiding behind army skirts.

And there we were, having a sensible discussion like adults.

I think government will continue biding their time.

However, I would not be surprised to see special force snatch squads being used to gradually de-capitate the red hydra!

Agreed. It is now to the point that the red leadership is split and the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. Not to mention Khattiya and his adjenda. They are becoming more of a loose cannon each day. Another week or two and I think they will self destruct. The government just has to set back and let them hang themselves so to speak. The Chula fiasco has cost them dearly and there is no way they can overcome this.

[dhrobertson]

If the people that are charged with up-holding the law etc did their job as they are supposed to, there wouldn't be any need for anyone to do anything other than their day-to-day job.

If those that are supposed to uphold the law, any we all know who they are, actually did so a lot of Thailand's problems would be solved.

I think it is a little deeper than this...to be legitimate laws have to be applied to everybody, they have to be enforced routinely, and the judiciary must be impartial...none of these criteria apply to Thailand....

The elite are above the law and are not held accountable for illegal activities, and this erodes respect for the law amongst the rest of the population; law enforcement is spotty and politically motivated; and I don't think people see the judiciary as impartial...it can move at lightening pace or at a snail's pace depending on the what the powerful want...

The Constitution is the foundation of law in any country, and confers legitimacy on the lawmakers, while placing limits about what may or may not be brought into law....think of how the Americans love their constitution.

The current constitution in Thailand was approved by referendum in which 59% of voters, voted for it...why on earth would this not be seen to be legitimate? The answer is because the junta (who wrote the constitution) made criticism of it a criminal offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison, and made it illegal to campaign against it, while pouring billions of baht into a 'vote yes' campaign. If Gordon Brown held a referendum on a law to be introduced in the UK and forbade any criticism of the law under pain of imprisonment, people in Britain would, rightly, not see that referendum as a legitimate expression of the will of the people (and neither would the vast majority of the farangs on this forum)...thus even the foundation of the law that confers legitimacy has been compromised.

The UK aint such a good example to use as it aint got no written constitution. Hey there's an idea. Longest running democracy in the world and no constitution needed. Wonder how that works.....

Yes, but we're grown ups. It took a thousand years by the way.......

[sicktodeathofit]

God Bless Abhisit and god bless the number 1.

[viking75]

dhrobertson.

you have asked many small question and i answer them for last time in post 206

sorry you not like or understand reasons. this is problem for you that you not understand, not that you don't know answer.

thank you for accept you were wrong and post many long posts because hope nobody will see that your post was easy to answer.