Thailand Could Deteriorate Into Undeclared Civil War

[dhrobertson]

Oberkommando as a red supporter can you please answer these two simple question? What is the reason the red leaders are unwilling to accept the government offer of elections in six months? Why does the red leaders demand immediate house dissolusion?

Come on Oberkommando and Viking73 please answer the questions.

I am not anon and think the questions are entirely valid.

I have been asking what do the red shirts actually want? for days now and have received no answer.

The reds have lost all ctredibility in my view

so. only you don't know this because you never look outside of propaganda.

Now please answer stupid question for me. Why do you ask question that you can easy find answer to if you only try a bit. and 2nd what time do bars close in Saigon as i go for visa run next week and need beer because arrive late.

nobody has to answer questions from yellow appologiser thank you

But just because you miss it 1000 times. The goverment is want to put its men into all positions in court army and police as shuffle is due then. Sorry that even a thai child knows this but a clever falang not know.

You are still not answering the questions. Please do so.

I am not a yellow supporter. I support common sense, logic, honesty and people who are smarter and better educted than I.

I am also a strong supporter of democracy.

I do not support the reds because I have not heard what they want. Please don't just say a dissolution or any of the other wooly 6 demands. What policies do they want from a government?

Actually, I think consitutional change is necessary before elections and I do not agree with the governments stance on that.

So, I do look beyond the propaganda. But I still don't know what the reds want.

[jdinasia]

I think it is a little deeper than this...to be legitimate laws have to be applied to everybody, they have to be enforced routinely, and the judiciary must be impartial...none of these criteria apply to Thailand....

The elite are above the law and are not held accountable for illegal activities, and this erodes respect for the law amongst the rest of the population; law enforcement is spotty and politically motivated; and I don't think people see the judiciary as impartial...it can move at lightening pace or at a snail's pace depending on the what the powerful want...

The Constitution is the foundation of law in any country, and confers legitimacy on the lawmakers, while placing limits about what may or may not be brought into law....think of how the Americans love their constitution.

The current constitution in Thailand was approved by referendum in which 59% of voters, voted for it...why on earth would this not be seen to be legitimate? The answer is because the junta (who wrote the constitution) made criticism of it a criminal offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison, and made it illegal to campaign against it, while pouring billions of baht into a 'vote yes' campaign. If Gordon Brown held a referendum on a law to be introduced in the UK and forbade any criticism of the law under pain of imprisonment, people in Britain would, rightly, not see that referendum as a legitimate expression of the will of the people (and neither would the vast majority of the farangs on this forum)...thus even the foundation of the law that confers legitimacy has been compromised.

Let's see .... where to start .....

The courts try cases that are brought before them. They try cases based upon the facts and merits of each individual case. To claim that the courts are supposed to do more or less than this is spurious. Courts do make mistakes (self-admitted about the 2001 asetts concealment case against Thaksin --- the exact case that brought the term "double-standards" into common use in Thailand). There was no mistake in disbanding TRT or PPP. Both were caught red-handed in electoral fraud.

You mention democracies and the constitution and checks and balances ---- When Thaksin was taken from power by the military in 2006 --- he was a caretaker PM that had resigned (extra-constitutional) for a government that called elections early to try and whitewash its crimes (Thaksin's crimes and TRT 's crimes). Because this caretaker government could not seat a new government in the time allotted it became extra-constitutional in a second way (time frame). The fact that Thaksin eroded the checks and balances in the 1997 constitution is not argued because it is simply true. That the 1997 constitution failed to rein in Thaksin twice at the end of his tenure is also true. The military threw out the baby with the bathwater when it tossed out the entire 1997 constitution.

BUT what they did do is return democracy to the people in about a year --- after drafting a new constitution that the people had a referendum on. Sucks that many didn't vote but part of a democracy in many places is the right NOT to vote. Not crying about the results of not voting is part of that game though.

Now -- how to fix the military's constitution? There are 2 ways -- draft a new one ... or charter revision ...

The PPP wanted to do charter revision unilaterally (much like your complaints about the military having final say about the version that went to the people to be voted on) except -- they never did call for a referendum --- PPP just wanted to change it.

The Democrats on the other hand have called for reform of the constitution as part of a group process INCLUDING the opposition and all parts of society and a referendum on any changes. In other words the democrats want to make changes based upon the contributions of all parts of society -- PPP wanted to help Thaksin. Which of those 2 ways are "democratic"? PTP is not wanting charter reform to be done with the democrats at the wheel ... PTP is the thaksin crony party that followed PPP .... If A=B and B=C --- then A=C right?

So, how do we settle things?

The legitimate protest can go on --- in a place that is safe and does not disrupt the rights of others. The terrorists and insurgents and traitors get tried and dealt with by the courts.

The constitution gets reformed by The People --- not just PTP --- and gets voted on again.

New elections are held when the political environment in Thailand allows ... should be less than a year --- and will still be EARLY elections by about a year.

What an excellent analysis. I fully agree.

However, I do think a number of changes to the constitution are required. I don't like these big constituencies where people get more than one vote.

Also, if there is a change in prime minister, particularly where he comes from a different party, then a new mandate should be sought, say, within 12 months.

3 things --- I said charter reform is mandatory --- by ALL the people NOT just PTP

1) There are benefits and draw backs on the larger constituency votes -- it is MUCH harder for the local political machines to come back against the voters when the voter can vote their conscience on the guy they want and THEN sell the other 2 votes. The other side of that same coin MIGHT suggest that people would be less willing to sell the ONLY vote they have. The answer imho is the same as yours, one vote for a party and one vote for MP (personally I would rather see the 'party' vote go away too! -- let people vote for their representative and that is it.)

2) There needs to be a universal loss of franchise for people convicted of serious crimes AND the loss of the right to run for political office if convicted of a serious crime.

3) There is no need to call a new election if a party loses its majority in parliament and thus the government changes. Remember, the sitting government can dissolve parliament at any time and call new elections. It is just 'sour grapes' if they cry about it after failing to take action.Even PPP could have dissolved parliament and called new elections as late as the day before they were disbanded (remember --- they KNEW there was video evidence of them commiting electoral fraud!), that they didn't was a display of hubris on their part because when given the chance to cleanly defect the Friends of Newin and the rest did!

[dhrobertson]

dhrobertson.

you have asked many small question and i answer them for last time in post 206

sorry you not like or understand reasons. this is problem for you that you not understand, not that you don't know answer.

thank you for accept you were wrong and post many long posts because hope nobody will see that your post was easy to answer.

So, you are saying that all this disruption is to avoid police/army/court re-shuffle?

Is that it?

Are you joking?

I had hoped to get the bare bones of en election manifesto!

[thaikahuna]

The International Crisis Group (ICG) said the country must consider mediation help from other nations to defuse the political crisis and avoid a slide into further violence.

Highly unlikely this will happen as Thai 'pride' will be a major barrier to this commonsense idea.

Who will want to be the first to lose face? IMO, both sides have already lost.

[viking75]

in my view if you want to get students on your side you do not do this

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2...aders-summoned/

is asked for new thread because i do not know how to do it.

better move barricade out to rangsit so all students can join with reds next week.

Edited May 2, 2010 by viking75

[jdinasia]

The International Crisis Group (ICG) said the country must consider mediation help from other nations to defuse the political crisis and avoid a slide into further violence.

Highly unlikely this will happen as Thai 'pride' will be a major barrier to this commonsense idea.

Who will want to be the first to lose face? IMO, both sides have already lost.

Thaksin's redshirts have already gone running to outside groups (the same groups that Thaksin disparaged in the past when they commented on things like his extra-judicial killings!). Those groups spouted what they should have -- calling for peaceful resolution to issues in Thailand --- and then said nothing else.

After all, the EU and the UN (and the US and all other governments) acknowledge the current government of Thailand. None have condemned the democratic process that led to this government. They understand that there is a dangerous and vocal minority that are unhappy.

[jdinasia]

in my view if you want to get students on your side you do not do this

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2...aders-summoned/

is asked for new thread because i do not know how to do it.

better move barricade out to rangsit so all students can join with reds next week.

Ummmm but viking --- you seem to be missing out that students have spoken out AGAINST the reds.

That unsupported newmandala blurb suggests that 2 (not 100's ... not 1000's) and only 2 'leaders' of one student group need to appear and answer questions.

If there are a few that have participated in something illegal I am sure it will come to light. Currently, the students I have talked to are not even upset about the censorship on the web .. then again they are bright enough to see whatever they want to. I would have expected them to be more upset. Strangely (again it appears strange to me!) they are not opposed to the harsh L.M. laws in Thailand either.

[sarahsbloke]

oops double post

Edited May 2, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[sarahsbloke]

After all, the EU and the UN (and the US and all other governments) acknowledge the current government of Thailand. None have condemned the democratic process that led to this government. They understand that there is a dangerous and vocal minority that are unhappy.

But the easiest thing they could do to hurt this government is stop tourists coming ....... hang on, they just did that!

(let's hope they don't think of stopping Western Union money transfers into Thailand)

Edited May 2, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[pornsasi]

Although i have been supporting the reds , not their methods , but some ideals of their file and rank , the red stupidity in having a mob invading the hospital is staggering and its becoming really tiring IMHO here i guess how it might play out

- The governement dont crack down on the reds . If they order a violent crackdown it might be catastrophic in terms of life loss , and could ignite a civil war in the provinces . Enough to contain them in one area for now

- The governement and the reds put their pride aside and agree to a UN or EC/US/Japan joint mediation between them if no purely thai body (acamedics, Dems/PTP ) acceptable to both parties can be found .

Of course there is the other alternative on which we cant talk about

- They negociate a compromise solution and the protest stop

I think a large number of thais want normalcy returned and see if the dems will be implementing the free education and other scheme , like free vocational training for Isaan that they have promissed . I hear about millions of thais not having social security also , there is plenty to do for the governement .

By the way the red shirts LEADERS promised to surrender and seek bail on the 15th May . Is that sill valid ?

Let the madness stop !!!!!!!!

[jdinasia]

dhrobertson.

you have asked many small question and i answer them for last time in post 206

sorry you not like or understand reasons. this is problem for you that you not understand, not that you don't know answer.

thank you for accept you were wrong and post many long posts because hope nobody will see that your post was easy to answer.

So, you are saying that all this disruption is to avoid police/army/court re-shuffle?

Is that it?

Are you joking?

I had hoped to get the bare bones of en election manifesto!

PTP has failed to put forward any plans for how they will help the poor. PPP never did either! Thaksin did but he did it in a way to re-create the exact thing you hear cried about from the red stage. He re-created the client-patron dynamic by giving loans that could not be repaid. That means that the people that accepted those loans needed a Thaksin party in power to forgive or extend the loans every 3 years. then there is the underfunded 30 baht scheme that he claimed for his own (it wasn't his idea -- but he did implement it without setting aside the resources to make it work!)

What about the redshirts you ask? They have 2 goals that they have stated and neither have anything to do with helping the poor. Goal 1 "dissolve parliament now" and Goal 2 "get Thaksin back" --- sad huh?

[Humungus]

The strategy of the PM to wait out the reds seems pretty ridiculous. Maybe he knows they've run out of money or something we don't, maybe he thinks the rain will wash them away. The problem is that thousands of Bangkok residents have been left without jobs. Thousands of people are prevented from using the downtown to get to work, school, hospitals and embassies. How long should they have to suffer so that the reds can continue to harass and annoy everyone? Put some real pressure on these clowns to negotiate and vacate. Days go by with no progress except that the reds get more infuriating. Is there really a reason to wait until more innocent people are injured, killed, or forced to flee from places they have every right to be? Face it reds you have lost the war for public support, you have worn out your welcome, and this is not the appropriate way to get what you claim you want.

[jdinasia]

After all, the EU and the UN (and the US and all other governments) acknowledge the current government of Thailand. None have condemned the democratic process that led to this government. They understand that there is a dangerous and vocal minority that are unhappy.

But the easiest thing they could do to hurt this government is stop tourists coming ....... hang on, they just did that!

(let's hope they don't think of stopping Western Union money transfers into Thailand)

Hmmm I would hazard to say that stopping western union wire transfers would affect more red-leaning Thais than it would hurt the government.

I disagree with your viewpoint about stopping tourists hurting the government --- it hurts all Thais equally. It affects the tax base ... it affects employment ... it affects the future goodwill of tourists (and thus will take years to overcome).. but I don't think the government will catch the blame for this in the eyes of the majority of Thais. The reds are seen now as violent criminals that raid hospitals. They'll catch the blame.

[pornsasi]

dhrobertson.

you have asked many small question and i answer them for last time in post 206

sorry you not like or understand reasons. this is problem for you that you not understand, not that you don't know answer.

thank you for accept you were wrong and post many long posts because hope nobody will see that your post was easy to answer.

So, you are saying that all this disruption is to avoid police/army/court re-shuffle?

Is that it?

Are you joking?

I had hoped to get the bare bones of en election manifesto!

PTP has failed to put forward any plans for how they will help the poor. PPP never did either! Thaksin did but he did it in a way to re-create the exact thing you hear cried about from the red stage. He re-created the client-patron dynamic by giving loans that could not be repaid. That means that the people that accepted those loans needed a Thaksin party in power to forgive or extend the loans every 3 years. then there is the underfunded 30 baht scheme that he claimed for his own (it wasn't his idea -- but he did implement it without setting aside the resources to make it work!)

What about the redshirts you ask? They have 2 goals that they have stated and neither have anything to do with helping the poor. Goal 1 "dissolve parliament now" and Goal 2 "get Thaksin back" --- sad huh?

I heard only about goal 1 . I believe they would not be against goal 2 of course LOL but even they themselves must recognise that it is only wishfull thinking . I dont even think that PTP wants the fascist back actually . Sounds to me as if the reds have become a loose canon without any semblance of control , even within their own hierarchy

Edit typo

Edited May 2, 2010 by pornsasi

[viking75]

in my view if you want to get students on your side you do not do this

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2...aders-summoned/

is asked for new thread because i do not know how to do it.

better move barricade out to rangsit so all students can join with reds next week.

Ummmm but viking --- you seem to be missing out that students have spoken out AGAINST the reds.

That unsupported newmandala blurb suggests that 2 (not 100's ... not 1000's) and only 2 'leaders' of one student group need to appear and answer questions.

If there are a few that have participated in something illegal I am sure it will come to light. Currently, the students I have talked to are not even upset about the censorship on the web .. then again they are bright enough to see whatever they want to. I would have expected them to be more upset. Strangely (again it appears strange to me!) they are not opposed to the harsh L.M. laws in Thailand either.

Time is to tell.

see if your great propagada sheets are better than this one.

sorry you don't like messenger and want to shoot it.

students may remember that is was students who were not liked by army last time. and so some good students support army and fascist elite so what, many are rich kids.... but not all.

[Netfan]

The strategy of the PM to wait out the reds seems pretty ridiculous. Maybe he knows they've run out of money or something we don't, maybe he thinks the rain will wash them away. The problem is that thousands of Bangkok residents have been left without jobs. Thousands of people are prevented from using the downtown to get to work, school, hospitals and embassies. How long should they have to suffer so that the reds can continue to harass and annoy everyone? Put some real pressure on these clowns to negotiate and vacate. Days go by with no progress except that the reds get more infuriating. Is there really a reason to wait until more innocent people are injured, killed, or forced to flee from places they have every right to be? Face it reds you have lost the war for public support, you have worn out your welcome, and this is not the appropriate way to get what you claim you want.

So just to be clear, you are saying blocking the entrance to the pediatrics ward of a hospital is not appropriate? And violating the Geneva Convention by invading that hospital is not appropriate? I don't understand the way some people think.

(SARCASM folks, sarcasm)

[473geo]

The strategy of the PM to wait out the reds seems pretty ridiculous. Maybe he knows they've run out of money or something we don't, maybe he thinks the rain will wash them away. The problem is that thousands of Bangkok residents have been left without jobs. Thousands of people are prevented from using the downtown to get to work, school, hospitals and embassies. How long should they have to suffer so that the reds can continue to harass and annoy everyone? Put some real pressure on these clowns to negotiate and vacate. Days go by with no progress except that the reds get more infuriating. Is there really a reason to wait until more innocent people are injured, killed, or forced to flee from places they have every right to be? Face it reds you have lost the war for public support, you have worn out your welcome, and this is not the appropriate way to get what you claim you want.

And the tens of thousounds of rural people consigned to poverty for decades - are not to be given serious consideration?

[dhrobertson]

dhrobertson.

you have asked many small question and i answer them for last time in post 206

sorry you not like or understand reasons. this is problem for you that you not understand, not that you don't know answer.

thank you for accept you were wrong and post many long posts because hope nobody will see that your post was easy to answer.

So, you are saying that all this disruption is to avoid police/army/court re-shuffle?

Is that it?

Are you joking?

I had hoped to get the bare bones of en election manifesto!

PTP has failed to put forward any plans for how they will help the poor. PPP never did either! Thaksin did but he did it in a way to re-create the exact thing you hear cried about from the red stage. He re-created the client-patron dynamic by giving loans that could not be repaid. That means that the people that accepted those loans needed a Thaksin party in power to forgive or extend the loans every 3 years. then there is the underfunded 30 baht scheme that he claimed for his own (it wasn't his idea -- but he did implement it without setting aside the resources to make it work!)

What about the redshirts you ask? They have 2 goals that they have stated and neither have anything to do with helping the poor. Goal 1 "dissolve parliament now" and Goal 2 "get Thaksin back" --- sad huh?

Yes, sad indeed!

It's ironic that we have an election campaign going on in the UK right now. 3 main parties and several small ones all with proper manifestos. And guess what...they are asking the people to vote for them on the basis of their policies!

[sarahsbloke]

And violating the Geneva Convention by invading that hospital

The Geneva Convention only applies to governments, and then only governments that sign up for it.

I'm pretty sure Thailand is not a non-signatory.

I'm pretty sure the red shirts aren't the Thai government (yet)

Edited May 2, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Jingthing]

Whenever there is an election, the reds win.

The wrong people keep winning the elections and have to be replaced by the elite.

Many of the elite rulers aren't even full blood Thais (part chinese), most of the reds are 100 percent full blood Thai.

Previously in countries when a small group, often from a different ethnic background to the majority, gained too much power there was an inevitable 'ethnic cleansing'

Jewish people in Germany

Pakistani people in Uganda

White people in Rhodesia

To name but a few. A bloodbath is almost inevitable IMHO.

The only thing delaying this bloodbath is their/our love for the King, let's all pray he lives to be 100.

This is completely wrong. This red shirt insurgency, whatever it ultimately means, has very little to do with anti-Chinese sentiment in Thailand. There will be no Chinese bloodbath in Thailand. Also, comparing the Chinese in Thailand to the Jews in Nazi Germany is an absurd distortion.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Jews_Nazi_Germany.htm

Edited May 2, 2010 by Jingthing

[gregb]

dhrobertson.

you have asked many small question and i answer them for last time in post 206

sorry you not like or understand reasons. this is problem for you that you not understand, not that you don't know answer.

thank you for accept you were wrong and post many long posts because hope nobody will see that your post was easy to answer.

So, you are saying that all this disruption is to avoid police/army/court re-shuffle?

Is that it?

Are you joking?

I had hoped to get the bare bones of en election manifesto!

PTP has failed to put forward any plans for how they will help the poor. PPP never did either! Thaksin did but he did it in a way to re-create the exact thing you hear cried about from the red stage. He re-created the client-patron dynamic by giving loans that could not be repaid. That means that the people that accepted those loans needed a Thaksin party in power to forgive or extend the loans every 3 years. then there is the underfunded 30 baht scheme that he claimed for his own (it wasn't his idea -- but he did implement it without setting aside the resources to make it work!)

What about the redshirts you ask? They have 2 goals that they have stated and neither have anything to do with helping the poor. Goal 1 "dissolve parliament now" and Goal 2 "get Thaksin back" --- sad huh?

Goal #3 (and the reason they can't wait until the end of the year) make sure they get their own people installed in critical positions in the military so they can prevent it from keeping them honest. It was Thaksin trying to infiltrate the military that kicked off this little shindig. He didn't want any kind of a check on his power, and the reds still don't. The other side responded by deposing him. He still couldn't take a hint and decided to destroy the country in revenge. Those who stupidly sided with him while he was in power got caught out, and now they have nothing left to lose, along with a few other nut jobs who are simply unstable.

The red leaders want to be free to rape and pillage the country unmolested. The people that care about the country will never let that happen. The poor people of Issan don't want a civil war. They are being manipulated by their evil overlords. This is not a peasant uprising folks. Don't believe the propaganda. Talk to the people of Issan not being brainwashed by hate speeches everyday at a protest rally. Nobody wants war.

<snip>.

Edited May 2, 2010 by raro
strong language suggesting violence deleted.

[dobadoy]

Abhisit has just announced he has a plan to solve the problem and bring back law and order, but he must see if it will work first...?

Here's one suggestion. Try a role play with 20 police officers. Have ten in red shirts and ten in brown. Ask Team Brown to arrest Team Red and see what happens. Should be a good test of any plan to return law and order.

Possible Outcomes

#1: Team Brown decide to negotiate with Team Red, which results in smoking cigarettes together and discussing which of the local vendors sells the best Som Tam until dark, so they decide to call of proceedings till the following day.

#2: Team Brown arrest the first Team Red member, but the other 9 Team Red's surround Team Brown and threaten to call in the gambling debts of Team Brown members if they don't let their Red comrade go.

#3: Team Brown start fighting among each other when it turns out that one of them owns the Som Tam stall given the concession nearest the Role Play site.

Conclusion: Plan is not likely to work unless Team Brown are replaced by people who actually support the plan.

Edited May 2, 2010 by dobadoy

[dobadoy]

The strategy of the PM to wait out the reds seems pretty ridiculous. Maybe he knows they've run out of money or something we don't, maybe he thinks the rain will wash them away. The problem is that thousands of Bangkok residents have been left without jobs. Thousands of people are prevented from using the downtown to get to work, school, hospitals and embassies. How long should they have to suffer so that the reds can continue to harass and annoy everyone? Put some real pressure on these clowns to negotiate and vacate. Days go by with no progress except that the reds get more infuriating. Is there really a reason to wait until more innocent people are injured, killed, or forced to flee from places they have every right to be? Face it reds you have lost the war for public support, you have worn out your welcome, and this is not the appropriate way to get what you claim you want.

And the tens of thousounds of rural people consigned to poverty for decades - are not to be given serious consideration?

Rural people the world over are consigned to poverty mostly because they lack education and opportunities, not because they lack Toyota's and credit cards.

Which recent PM has extended free schooling to all Thais throughout the whole curriculum?

Answer: Abhisit

Which recent PM has proposed a tax on landowners over 5 rai, and an inheritance tax on the rich?

Answer: Abhisit

Which recent PM is not much liked by wealthy local gang lords who own large tracts of rural land and have large amounts of wealth to pass on to their kids being educated in private schools in Bangkok, and who would not much like an educated rural poor demanding higher wages for working in local mafia-owned businesses?

Answer: Abhisit

Now you tell me, who is fighting for the poor?

Edited May 2, 2010 by dobadoy

[Pakboong]

Boy, people do love their daily dose of drama, don't they?

Lol - you're not wrong...

Hammered had it pretty much right in his post above - people are just getting on with their lives around this and most have started to get a bit bored of it.

Thailand falling into civil war - no chance, Bangkok, the army and the Monarchy would never allow it.

Talk of such things is, as mjnaus puts it, just a daily dose of drama.

The government is going to wait this out, no other option now. The reds are making mistake after mistake, it's only a matter of time before the leaders realise that if they don't get out of dodge they're going to rot in jail, then it will fall apart.

In my opinion when the rain kicks in and they're getting soaked every night the appeal will quickly wear off for the women and kids at the protest site, not to mention school starting again soon. Time will likely settle this - the government clearly sees this as well.

Tom.

It is comforting to know that civil wars can just be disallowed.

[pimay11]

viking75:

so. only you don't know this because you never look outside of propaganda.

Now please answer stupid question for me. Why do you ask question that you can easy find answer to if you only try a bit. and 2nd what time do bars close in Saigon as i go for visa run next week and need beer because arrive late.

nobody has to answer questions from yellow appologiser thank you

But just because you miss it 1000 times. The goverment is want to put its men into all positions in court army and police as shuffle is due then. Sorry that even a thai child knows this but a clever falang not know.

My my aren't we touchy today my friend. Have a couple of pints and chill a little. After all this is only a friendly discussion. No need for anyone to get their underwear in a knot. We can agree to disagree.

As I tell my clients there is no such thing as a stupid question. Just because you do not understand the product does not mean you are stupid.

I think you might have misunderstood my two questions. I am referring to the current situation not the one where Mr T put his friends and family in court army and police positions. Maybe you need to take your own advise and look outside the propaganda and verify what I am saying. Don't take my word for it. Google is a good place to start.

Now that you understand the two questions can you please reply with your best answer? Not a demand mind you, only a request from a fellow poster.

As for your second question, the bars in Saigon close at midnight. If you are resourceful you can find late night bars. Have a nice time in Saigon.

[animatic]

dhrobertson.

you have asked many small question and i answer them for last time in post 206

sorry you not like or understand reasons. this is problem for you that you not understand, not that you don't know answer.

thank you for accept you were wrong and post many long posts because hope nobody will see that your post was easy to answer.

So, you are saying that all this disruption is to avoid police/army/court re-shuffle?

Is that it?

Are you joking?

I had hoped to get the bare bones of en election manifesto!

PTP has failed to put forward any plans for how they will help the poor. PPP never did either! Thaksin did but he did it in a way to re-create the exact thing you hear cried about from the red stage. He re-created the client-patron dynamic by giving loans that could not be repaid. That means that the people that accepted those loans needed a Thaksin party in power to forgive or extend the loans every 3 years. then there is the underfunded 30 baht scheme that he claimed for his own (it wasn't his idea -- but he did implement it without setting aside the resources to make it work!)

What about the redshirts you ask? They have 2 goals that they have stated and neither have anything to do with helping the poor. Goal 1 "dissolve parliament now" and Goal 2 "get Thaksin back" --- sad huh?

I heard only about goal 1 . I believe they would not be against goal 2 of course LOL but even they themselves must recognise that it is only wishfull thinking . I dont even think that PTP wants the fascist back actually . Sounds to me as if the reds have become a loose canon without any semblance of control , even within their own hierarchy

Edit typo

The Red Shirts are PTP. The auxiliary street arm might be one way to say it.

They are no less fascist for being elected, since they control and condone much of what the red shirts do.

So what PTP voices are on record condeming red Shirt actions... I hear them defending Chavalit though.

Jutuporn is a PTP MP and core Red Shirt leader, and despicably uses his MP immunity to

not get charged for any acts he does.

You can't disassociate or separate the Red Shirts and Phuea Thai Party,

because they work symbiotic allies all to the same end. If the Reds are fascistic,

then PTP supports wholly a fascist organization as a method to get back into power.

PTP = RS.

Edited May 2, 2010 by animatic

[Humungus]

thaksinlivesdotcom has posted the most recent pictures of thaksin from the waist up. Today he's in Uganda, where will he be tomorrow? If you can guess you win a prize.

It's a good thing that he always manages to reset the time on his camera as he travels from continent to continent and time zone to time zone, I know I would forget.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Humungus

[Pakboong]

We have to ask ourselves: does a Western style democracy work in an Asian country?

I am not sure they work in the west.

[pornsasi]

The strategy of the PM to wait out the reds seems pretty ridiculous. Maybe he knows they've run out of money or something we don't, maybe he thinks the rain will wash them away. The problem is that thousands of Bangkok residents have been left without jobs. Thousands of people are prevented from using the downtown to get to work, school, hospitals and embassies. How long should they have to suffer so that the reds can continue to harass and annoy everyone? Put some real pressure on these clowns to negotiate and vacate. Days go by with no progress except that the reds get more infuriating. Is there really a reason to wait until more innocent people are injured, killed, or forced to flee from places they have every right to be? Face it reds you have lost the war for public support, you have worn out your welcome, and this is not the appropriate way to get what you claim you want.

And the tens of thousounds of rural people consigned to poverty for decades - are not to be given serious consideration?

You are entirely right . Had the dems and other parties in Thailand before 2001 done their job properly which is among other things to improve the standard of living , education and heathcare of all thais especially the disadvantaged ones , a demagog like the billionaire prai would never had been abble to gain such an influence in thai politics and ppl in Isaan would not see Abhisit as the boogy man . I cant vouch for the dems and their coalition partner , perhaps once this protest is all over , the coalition in power all go back to their petty intrigues and self enrichment but i dont think so . The politicians must have realised by now that they can really built a career and real tangible popularity by simply serving the people . However somewhat distasful was the chain of events that brought PM Abhisit in power , he is now in power , he is young which is good , and he should be given a chance to make good his promises . Many thais to whom i spoke too , the silent majority are waiting to see , the PM in action . If he dont , he and his party will be defeated at next election , plain and simple .

[473geo]

The strategy of the PM to wait out the reds seems pretty ridiculous. Maybe he knows they've run out of money or something we don't, maybe he thinks the rain will wash them away. The problem is that thousands of Bangkok residents have been left without jobs. Thousands of people are prevented from using the downtown to get to work, school, hospitals and embassies. How long should they have to suffer so that the reds can continue to harass and annoy everyone? Put some real pressure on these clowns to negotiate and vacate. Days go by with no progress except that the reds get more infuriating. Is there really a reason to wait until more innocent people are injured, killed, or forced to flee from places they have every right to be? Face it reds you have lost the war for public support, you have worn out your welcome, and this is not the appropriate way to get what you claim you want.

And the tens of thousounds of rural people consigned to poverty for decades - are not to be given serious consideration?

Rural people the world over are consigned to poverty mostly because they lack education and opportunities, not because they lack Toyota's and credit cards.

Which recent PM has extended free schooling to all Thais throughout the whole curriculum?

Answer: Abhisit

Which recent PM has proposed a tax on landowners over 5 rai, and an inheritance tax on the rich?

Answer: Abhisit

Which recent PM is not much liked by wealthy local gang lords who own large tracts of rural land and have large amounts of wealth to pass on to their kids being educated in private schools in Bangkok, and who would not much like an educated rural poor demanding higher wages for working in local mafia-owned businesses?

Answer: Abhisit

Now you tell me, who is fighting for the poor?

I would suggest free schooling is not the major requirement, although beneficial, rather a blind for the fact that the education system is not being radically developed and advanced at a respectable speed. Never the less free schooling for all is a start. Could you let me know if the university education system has followed this action with free university education or a program to develop education standards and allow free places to the eager but poorer applicants...........I am prepared to be impressed......please go ahead......

Land tax on owning land over 5 rai.....who do you think will pay this......most rural Thai......and in case you are unsure of the facts you make a only very basic existence on 10 rai of average rural land.

Inheritance tax on the rich......do you really believe there is no legal way around this........perhaps by tranferring the property before you die?........except for the poorer element who struggle to afford the proper legal advice.....and worry of course that if they hand over their property they may be left with no income!!!

I do not think the land track rich will be greatly affected by Abhisit and probably go about their business as usual.

Please continue to educate me......thank you....

Edited May 2, 2010 by 473geo