Not Too Many Alternatives To Abhisit's Road Map

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ASK THE EDITOR

Not too many alternatives to road map

By Tulsathit Taptim

The Nation

Okay, let's get straight to the point. How do I feel about Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's road map? If my first instinct is to be trusted, it was well-intended, comprehensive (if everyone cooperates to implement it, that is), and we only have a potentially bloody crackdown as the other option.

I'm not in the "Never negotiate with terrorists" school. For one thing, this camp's belief can blur what the real red movement is all about. Whether or not they are funded by Thaksin's money, the majority of the red shirts are merely protesters. If the road map can get them out of harm's way, or keep them from becoming what many fear, it gets my support.

The People's Alliance for Democracy seems to think that terrorist and anti-monarchy elements are more prevalent among the reds than Abhisit may have believed. The road map, therefore, is tantamount to releasing a wounded tiger back to the jungle as far as the yellow shirts are concerned.

And there is also a feeling that Abhisit chose to compromise at the worst possible time. Having bombarded the red shirts with serious accusations and used the term "terrorism" repeatedly in his previous statements, Abhisit was having the rivals at his mercy after the Chulalongkorn Hospital invasion. Instead, he opted to dangle a carrot when an elaborate stroke of a whip could have ended it right there.

But we don't have a better choice. The other way available is to send troops into what has become a fortress in the middle of the city surrounded by key business buildings and inhabited by many women, children and elderly people. Whether or not they are "human shields" doesn't matter. The bottom line is a crackdown will put their lives in danger and leave an indelible national scar and another big one on everybody's conscience.

I agree that the road map may be too idealistic and not very practical. It seeks to address a deep-rooted problem and five or six years of grave national divide in less than seven months. But then again, the other option that we have won't even tackle the crisis. It will only make things worse.

Is there a third way? Some people said the red shirts were a pushover after the hospital debacle. Maybe instead of offering the road map - which could in fact rejuvenate the red movement - the Abhisit administration should wear down the protesters and alienate their leaders until it is safe for troops to move in without having to fire a single shot.

That will possibly clear Rajprasong, but the question will be "What's next?" Opponents of the road map themselves have admitted that the red movement has become something that is far more than meets the eye, so will a Rajprasong clearance, violent or bloodless, be a real solution?

It must have been obvious to everyone what the red movement has evolved into. It's not just about people enduring heat, rain and mosquitos at Rajprasong. We are talking about villages where some people have to wear red because of coercion, or about senior police officials who remember by heart arguments about "injustice" and "double standards".

To me, the Abhisit road map suggests his acceptance that the reds are a movement to be reckoned with, and his idea that the movement has to exist - only in a different way. No armed struggle, and elements attempting to overthrow the monarchy must be dealt with, that is.

Most importantly, that everyone is slamming the road map left and right may have told us it was not drafted with too much of vested interest in mind. Idealistic it might seem, but the road map, to me at least, reflects thinking that is not weighed down by any particular group. That is hard, especially under these circumstances.

-- The Nation 2010-05-07

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[chadintheusa]

I suppose one option is to do what Greece did and have the police enforce the law and end the protest in one day like they did instead of taking 2 months and then caving into violent protesters.

[ozzieman05]

The PM has brought peace we hope to Bangkok

But he has also set a precedence that the next mob can follow, this will be his finale writing on his tombstone

Thais love to complain out loss of face and the next mob have been given a reference point in to how to carry on an illegal, legal protest

The only solution I can see now act hard and fast

Send in the authorities (Army or Police) with arrest warrants for the Red shirt leaders

Any one who obstructs justice get arrested on the spot and carted away

Then they send in a fresh squad and do the same

It may take a while but soon the will get the point

Thailand courts need to understand, jail is a place of punishment

and money is not a get out of jail card

Bail should not be an option for these guys as they will be back to what they where doing 30 mins later with the idea they are above the law

I think that the PM is a good man

But his trying to keep the peace I feel will be the instrument that will keep Thailand in trouble for many years to come

[brahmburgers]

CHULA INVASION (from Nation newspaper)

Public Health Minister Jurin Laksanawisit yesterday revealed that of all inpatients transferred out of Chulalongkorn Hospital last week, four have died.

Earlier in the same House session, Pheu Thai MP Prasit Chaiwirattana questioned the Chulalongkorn Hospital's neutrality.

Although Prasit admitted the redshirt raid on the night of April 29 into the hospital was wrong, "the redshirt didn't do anything suggesting they wanted to harm the hospital people."

BB asks Kun Prasit, "How can you say 200 protesters carrying weapons and storming in to the hospital, shouting demands while brandishing weapons, .....is 'not wanting to harm people."?

Edited May 7, 2010 by brahmburgers

[jayjay0]

He set a precedence on how to handle mobs with his treatment of the yellow shirts.

Any truth in the rumor they are going to be charged with loitering.

While this roadmap has its faults it is a way to get out of the situation without losing face killing people and coming across as a milatary dictatorship.

Opponents would like to have him turn into a Burma type country.

[ETatBKK]

CHULA INVASION (from Nation newspaper)

Public Health Minister Jurin Laksanawisit yesterday revealed that of all inpatients transferred out of Chulalongkorn Hospital last week, four have died.

Earlier in the same House session, Pheu Thai MP Prasit Chaiwirattana questioned the Chulalongkorn Hospital's neutrality.

Although Prasit admitted the redshirt raid on the night of April 29 into the hospital was wrong, "the redshirt didn't do anything suggesting they wanted to harm the hospital people."

BB asks Kun Prasit, "How can you say 200 protesters carrying weapons and storming in to the hospital, shouting demands while brandishing weapons, .....is 'not wanting to harm people."?

oh . . . this is a bad news.

WHO responsible for this 4 death then ?

do they have right to live a little bit longer without the interferrence ?

WHERE is the criminal Payap ?

( sorry, this is out of topic )

[whybother]

He set a precedence on how to handle mobs with his treatment of the yellow shirts.

Any truth in the rumor they are going to be charged with loitering.

While this roadmap has its faults it is a way to get out of the situation without losing face killing people and coming across as a milatary dictatorship.

Opponents would like to have him turn into a Burma type country.

Who set a precendent? Somchai was PM then and PPP were in government.

[jcbangkok]

I still believe there is a good chance that even with the road map in place that troops will be moving in on the reds. In a way this would be the best of both worlds as the people left in the seized area will only be hardcore members looking for a fight. Plus it will show the government will not tolerate (kind of) lawless mobs taking over areas of the country. It would also quiet the pad who are looking for blood. But the hope would be there won't have to be blood and the remaining reds will comply with lawful orders but I don't see that happening since they have said they will fight the army and polce to the death.

[Redsunset]

I still believe there is a good chance that even with the road map in place that troops will be moving in on the reds. In a way this would be the best of both worlds as the people left in the seized area will only be hardcore members looking for a fight. Plus it will show the government will not tolerate (kind of) lawless mobs taking over areas of the country. It would also quiet the pad who are looking for blood. But the hope would be there won't have to be blood and the remaining reds will comply with lawful orders but I don't see that happening since they have said they will fight the army and polce to the death.

Yes, JC.... the crux of this problem is that the violent reds are interspersed with "innocent" women and children, who do not have non-violent leaders to push their cause... so maybe the solution is to find a non-violent leader who can sensibly connect with the protesters who want to champion their cause in a more acceptable way? This is just a brainstormed idea... let me post a more realistic solution...

[Redsunset]

My solution:

1. Demote Anupong

2. Promote a man to head operations who will execute his orders

3. Plan to pinpoint and capture the targeted red leaders, dead or alive.

4. Do it at night when everyone seems to take a time out from the protests

5. Capture red leaders, shoot and kill terrorists, protect as many women and children as possible.

ALTERNATIVELY..... blockade/isolate Ratchaprasong and pressure the people living there to leave.....

Perhaps you might have to do this in waves... maybe the first wave you capture three leaders... if you did, I'll bet the red protesters who are women and children will scatter like leaves... if they are being held hostage, then all the more reason you go for the second wave... then the third wave.... let's face it. Nuttawut and company are cowards. Once they see their own blood from a cut on their hands, they will pee in their pants and surrender like babies.... that is what cowards do.

Real leaders never cower behind human shields.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Redsunset

[Insight]

Red shirts are now looking utterly pedantic to the rest of the world with their dissolution date demands. They've achieved their aim of getting elections, why is the dissolution date so important.

Yes, we all know the answer to this, but that answer if far more damaging to the message the reds are trying to send than it is to the government.

[Redsunset]

Red shirts are now looking utterly pedantic to the rest of the world with their dissolution date demands. They've achieved their aim of getting elections, why is the dissolution date so important.

Yes, we all know the answer to this, but that answer if far more damaging to the message the reds are trying to send than it is to the government.

I've always wondered what is the big deal over 3-4 months difference... actually I think the red leaders are terrified of being tried and sent to jail for years... look at Thaksin... that guy has not come back to Thailand because he is scared of facing the music and going to jail...

Hey, if you can't do the time; don't do the crime!!!

Edited May 7, 2010 by Redsunset

[ozzieman05]

CHULA INVASION (from Nation newspaper)

Public Health Minister Jurin Laksanawisit yesterday revealed that of all inpatients transferred out of Chulalongkorn Hospital last week, four have died.

Earlier in the same House session, Pheu Thai MP Prasit Chaiwirattana questioned the Chulalongkorn Hospital's neutrality.

Although Prasit admitted the redshirt raid on the night of April 29 into the hospital was wrong, "the redshirt didn't do anything suggesting they wanted to harm the hospital people."

BB asks Kun Prasit, "How can you say 200 protesters carrying weapons and storming in to the hospital, shouting demands while brandishing weapons, .....is 'not wanting to harm people."?

A hospital are is always low key, and a silent area

Invaiding a hospital is on worse than raiding a Thai Wat

As the Red shirts keep asking for things to be done to International standards

The protestors who invaded the hospital should be charged with the same crime they would face in the west

2nd Degree Man slaughter

[ozzieman05]

I still believe there is a good chance that even with the road map in place that troops will be moving in on the reds. In a way this would be the best of both worlds as the people left in the seized area will only be hardcore members looking for a fight. Plus it will show the government will not tolerate (kind of) lawless mobs taking over areas of the country. It would also quiet the pad who are looking for blood. But the hope would be there won't have to be blood and the remaining reds will comply with lawful orders but I don't see that happening since they have said they will fight the army and polce to the death.

I feel it is more than making them pay for the crimes they have done

A major part is setting a precedence that the next mob that tries the same will face the full wrath of the law

When you join the army you understand their will be fighting

When you join the police force you know its not all about bribes and making money there are risks

Red shirts who sill protest need to know that they are not above the law and are putting their lives in danger

But most important there needs to be a standard set that you can not be above the law, or you have created a double standard, and mob rule will happen every time some one is not agreement for any reason

[ozzieman05]

My solution:

1. Demote Anupong

2. Promote a man to head operations who will execute his orders

3. Plan to pinpoint and capture the targeted red leaders, dead or alive.

4. Do it at night when everyone seems to take a time out from the protests

5. Capture red leaders, shoot and kill terrorists, protect as many women and children as possible.

ALTERNATIVELY..... blockade/isolate Ratchaprasong and pressure the people living there to leave.....

Perhaps you might have to do this in waves... maybe the first wave you capture three leaders... if you did, I'll bet the red protesters who are women and children will scatter like leaves... if they are being held hostage, then all the more reason you go for the second wave... then the third wave.... let's face it. Nuttawut and company are cowards. Once they see their own blood from a cut on their hands, they will pee in their pants and surrender like babies.... that is what cowards do.

Real leaders never cower behind human shields.

Well said

Please Mr. PM take notice

[chadintheusa]

Next week the PM won't have to worry about children at the protest site, they'll all be in school. On second thought the reds won't let them go home and study, they prefer their supporters to be uneducated and easily manipulated.

[givenall]

He set a precedence on how to handle mobs with his treatment of the yellow shirts.

Any truth in the rumor they are going to be charged with loitering.

While this roadmap has its faults it is a way to get out of the situation without losing face killing people and coming across as a milatary dictatorship.

Opponents would like to have him turn into a Burma type country.

I am tired of hearing about what Yellow shirt did. Abhisit was not even the PM at the time. Let’s focus on the problem at hand, although I am sure none of the Thai people really care about what we say anyways.

I just am tired of all <deleted>… ing noise at night. They talk and play music all night. Running country is not all about song and dance

[minburi2]

Next week the PM won't have to worry about children at the protest site, they'll all be in school. On second thought the reds won't let them go home and study, they prefer their supporters to be uneducated and easily manipulated.

that's the whole point, which has been going one for a long time, the red-skirt leaders for decades didn't want their own to become educated, otherways they would loose their support and income

[ETatBKK]

Next week the PM won't have to worry about children at the protest site, they'll all be in school. On second thought the reds won't let them go home and study, they prefer their supporters to be uneducated and easily manipulated.

a very good thought ! then we wait a week after the children back to school !

not a reason the reds do allow their own kids back to school !

( remarks : sadly, many of those kids are actually no schooling in up country )

[chantorn]

Next week the PM won't have to worry about children at the protest site, they'll all be in school. On second thought the reds won't let them go home and study, they prefer their supporters to be uneducated and easily manipulated.

a very good thought ! then we wait a week after the children back to school !

not a reason the reds do allow their own kids back to school !

( remarks : sadly, many of those kids are actually no schooling in up country )

School opens the week after next.

[Insight]

Too quiet this morning. Guess it's situation normal now?

[lazurus]

Next week the PM won't have to worry about children at the protest site, they'll all be in school. On second thought the reds won't let them go home and study, they prefer their supporters to be uneducated and easily manipulated.

a very good thought ! then we wait a week after the children back to school !

not a reason the reds do allow their own kids back to school !

( remarks : sadly, many of those kids are actually no schooling in up country )

School opens the week after next.

Not around Ratchasaprong if the Reds are still there.

[lazurus]

Too quiet this morning. Guess it's situation normal now?

Yes as usual it's SNAFU in redland. Situation Normal All F^%@$* Up

[whybother]

My solution:

1. Demote Anupong

2. Promote a man to head operations who will execute his orders

3. Plan to pinpoint and capture the targeted red leaders, dead or alive.

4. Do it at night when everyone seems to take a time out from the protests

5. Capture red leaders, shoot and kill terrorists, protect as many women and children as possible.

ALTERNATIVELY..... blockade/isolate Ratchaprasong and pressure the people living there to leave.....

Perhaps you might have to do this in waves... maybe the first wave you capture three leaders... if you did, I'll bet the red protesters who are women and children will scatter like leaves... if they are being held hostage, then all the more reason you go for the second wave... then the third wave.... let's face it. Nuttawut and company are cowards. Once they see their own blood from a cut on their hands, they will pee in their pants and surrender like babies.... that is what cowards do.

Real leaders never cower behind human shields.

I read somewhere else that Abhisit *wouldn't* give the order for a crack down. That's why the army hasn't gone in ... yet.

So Anupong *is* following orders.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Most of People want a peaceful solution. The Red Shirts (read well their current position) are waiting a clarification of the situation as there are some opponents to the Roadmap in the Abhisit side: the Red hirts current position is understandable.

Abhisit should regroup his supporters in a new movement, then finalise the agreement with Red Shirts and present to Thai population the Agreement; yes or No. Abhisit should confort his image through this operation, he should be able to go to next Elections under his own banner, and the old click of corrupted Democrats/PAD...definitively sidelined. A renovation of the Thai Politician landscape. Let us put the agreement under Vox Populi: a referendum....

[MaxLee]

Next week the PM won't have to worry about children at the protest site, they'll all be in school. On second thought the reds won't let them go home and study, they prefer their supporters to be uneducated and easily manipulated.

a very good thought ! then we wait a week after the children back to school !

not a reason the reds do allow their own kids back to school !

( remarks : sadly, many of those kids are actually no schooling in up country )

School opens the week after next.

Well IMAGINE when the schools and Universities start again and the majority of the UDD protestors didn't back down yet....

needless to say????

[Redsunset]

My solution:

1. Demote Anupong

2. Promote a man to head operations who will execute his orders

3. Plan to pinpoint and capture the targeted red leaders, dead or alive.

4. Do it at night when everyone seems to take a time out from the protests

5. Capture red leaders, shoot and kill terrorists, protect as many women and children as possible.

ALTERNATIVELY..... blockade/isolate Ratchaprasong and pressure the people living there to leave.....

Perhaps you might have to do this in waves... maybe the first wave you capture three leaders... if you did, I'll bet the red protesters who are women and children will scatter like leaves... if they are being held hostage, then all the more reason you go for the second wave... then the third wave.... let's face it. Nuttawut and company are cowards. Once they see their own blood from a cut on their hands, they will pee in their pants and surrender like babies.... that is what cowards do.

Real leaders never cower behind human shields.

I read somewhere else that Abhisit *wouldn't* give the order for a crack down. That's why the army hasn't gone in ... yet.

So Anupong *is* following orders.

I've read that Abhisit was angry that Suthep and Anupong have failed to enforce the Emergency Security Act and that Anupong has stubbornly refused to use violence..... that is the reason, Abhisit has not been able to enforce dispersal.

[Redsunset]

I can see the writing on the wall on this one......

1. The Chula Hospital invasion was horrendous for the reds...

2. Preventing students from going to school will be just as bad with a different level of intensity.

[Redsunset]

Actually, I think most of the protesters are probably the lost, lazy, irresponsible folks who blame the government for their poverty. That is bullshit.

Sure there are things we can do - better schools, continued health care, but opportunity depends on the person as much as the system.

I know plenty of hard working Thais who came from nothing. They work seven days a week in restaurants or menial jobs striving for success. They sweat, suffer, but every day, they show up. They are always lured by corruption, but they stay the course and work hard.

These are role models for how the democratic system "should" work in Thailand.

I do not for a moment believe that setting up programs to enhance opportunities will make a huge dent in the livelihood of the poor person's life. You can be given an opportunity, but you have to have the ambition and hard work to fulfill that opportunity. It is not handed to you.... ask any hard working immigrant... they will tell you how to succeed.

[noahvail]

My solution:

1. Demote Anupong

And let the hard-liner who is next in line *really* clean 'em up, eh...

2. Promote a man to head operations who will execute his orders

Yep, that would be the hard-liner whose name escapes me at the moment.

3. Plan to pinpoint and capture the targeted red leaders, dead or alive.

That can be be done once. After that, vigilance and revenge will come bursting through the read shirt's lines.

4. Do it at night when everyone seems to take a time out from the protests

Stategically, yes, but from a PR standpoint, no. The world media will be watching. Showing pictures of using restraint as they kill a leader but not the three women and kids around them would show 1) pretty good shots, and 2) it's not My Lai in VietNam - women and children are not considered terrorists or targets until they are in the act of open defiance, shooting, throwing molotov cocktails, going after people with sharpened bamboo stakes.

5. Capture red leaders, shoot and kill terrorists, protect as many women and children as possible.

Relatively easy to tell who the 30 or so leaders are; not to easy to determine who the terrorists are since they've already blended or left the area. And of course, take the women and children into concern - while at the same time frisking them for weapons; learn from VietNam.

ALTERNATIVELY..... blockade/isolate Ratchaprasong and pressure the people living there to leave.....

An extension of that means that there will be loudspeakers blaring at Chula hospital again, that the noise that goes on to the wee hours of the morning will continue to creat distress for the people who live in that area, not to mention the loss of jobs and sales at the markets (and not just at the fancy markets - there is a trickle-down effect after all).

Perhaps you might have to do this in waves... maybe the first wave you capture three leaders... if you did, I'll bet the red protesters who are women and children will scatter like leaves... if they are being held hostage, then all the more reason you go for the second wave... then the third wave.... let's face it. Nuttawut and company are cowards. Once they see their own blood from a cut on their hands, they will pee in their pants and surrender like babies.... that is what cowards do.

I really don't think the wave thing would work. The second wave could be an absolute PR disaster, never mind the number of troops and police who would be killed by the fanatical core of redshirts.

Now it's possible that the leaders want to do the SBC thing - Suicide By Kop. Somewhere along the lines of David Koresh, but without the planning. They've already got the fuel for the fires stacked up along the perimeters. I despair if it takes this route.

Real leaders never cower behind human shields.

Have to agree with you here. At Gettysburgh, I had a distant relation who ran the 20th Maine. Holding the hill was the turning point of the war. Col Joshua Chamberlain stood behind his troops, directing. He was shot four times that day, and each time got up or was supported up to rally the troops, who responded to a great leader. (Chamberlain was a professor of history with no direct military experience.) When the battle ended, his troops had less than 15 minutes' worth of ammo. Even so, he sent his riflemen to clean up to the bottom of the hill using shot and bayonets.

Not easy to find a leader like that these days. But agreed, real leaders never cower, especially behind human shield. Standing in the back of the lines shouting orders does not consist of cowering; had he stood in the front lines, he would have been one of the first to die.

The point is...out-of-box thinking will absolutely shake up the status-quo; whether that shake up is positive or negative has always got to be looked at in retrospect or in a critical-thinking future-forward manner.

I think Mr Abhisit is working on that last paragraph, and has had a couple of wrenches thrown into the monkey works. I hope he comes out well after all of this is done.