More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[siampolee]

30 activists and protesters will gather under Din Daeng Tollway.will take off clothes to show they do not have weapon" /v @pattweet_NT

No its a move to prove they have no weapons due to a recent cut and tuck job.

Soon be back at work bending over to serve their customers.

Edited May 18, 2010 by siampolee

[pontius]

Funny part in all this discussion is some posters will question all other posters or every organisation in the world while they are the only one's who haven't moved a muscle in their a.s.s since this protest started .... why question other of opinionating when you are doing the same while sitting at cozy confines of your homes and surfing net...

let everybody post their views without dissing them...

Yes, but aren't you just doing exactly... oh well.

[rogerx007]

Funny part in all this discussion is some posters will question all other posters or every organisation in the world while they are the only one's who haven't moved a muscle in their a.s.s since this protest started .... why question other of opinionating when you are doing the same while sitting at cozy confines of your homes and surfing net...

let everybody post their views without dissing them...

Yes, but aren't you just doing exactly... oh well.

Which part Einstein.... oh well !

[NaiGreg]

i sincerely hope k. abhisit is telling the truth that the gov. is not responsible for the cowardly assasination of sae daeng. whether sae daeng was guilty of crimes is something for a judge, not a sniper, to resolve.

many posters in RatchaPrasong plead: "no double standards". i sincerely hope that Thailand comes to adopt this much of the Red agenda.

Earthpig,

Veera is safe, don't get your grey matter all tied-up in a convoluted ball of flesh. Oh, wait, it IS a convoluted ball of flesh.

Many Western soldiers would not agree with your conclusion. The Army takes care of its own, if ya get the drift. Sae Daeng was not the kinda guy who hugged lawyers.

IF the Army killed the combatant Sae Daeng AND if were able to tell us his thoughts about it, he would say ... "excellent work. Jeeze, I'm an idiot for underestimating you. Must have been guys I personally trained" ...

Or .......................

Maybe he would say "hey, that was a violation of Article 85.1 Part A Section 3. A severe reprimand is in order."

Okay ... try this. Since you appear to want to learn more about Thailand and why it is different from lesser-but-more-developed-yet-warped nations like the UK you need a lesson in

1. เวรกรรม (wehn-gam) Google it.

2. รับกรรม (rap-gam) ... look it up ... Farang confuse this word with som-nam-na but they are not the same. I would never say som-nam-na (trivializes his death) about Sae Daeng but rap-gam (get-yer-kharma) is the truth. All Thais know and live by this. Remember when the Walenda father fell from a high wire to his death after ignoring warnings about high winds. If he had been an amateur it would have been som-nam-na, but he was a pro. It is not good or bad, there are no judgments when it comes to rap-gam. It is just simply the law. We all rap-gam. It can never be too early or too late (except for OJ Simpson who continues to defy the law)

You seem like a nice girl. No charge. Let me buy you a beverage when you are in CM. What does Earthpig mean, exactly?

-NG

[oldenuf2knobette]

I think the AI report is drawing premature conclusions. Have they really been able to investigate sufficiently to support the statements they are making? They could be correct but most likely it will not be known for some time after this is all over, if ever. Given that the army has suffered some casualties it seems that there are bullets flying in both directions.

Also, why no condemnation of the way Red's children are being knowing held in a situation of danger by their parents and UDD. This is surely child abuse and a blatant violation of their human rights.

[lannarebirth]

I've just put another video up. It's gonna send the red sympathizers up the wall

Thaksin Empire State of Mind (In Bangkok)

Really excellent vid well done

Bought a smile to my face and a tear to my eye.

While not a fan of the musical genre or the NY Yankees I have to say well done. Particularly the sequence at 1:30 - 1:34 tieing the black shirt commandos of April 10 directly to the Red Shirt leadership. Amnesty my ass!

[kissdani]

Abhisit is the PM who ordered to kill protesters.

Could you please scan and post a copy of the secret memorandum that you received a copy of?

Thank you.

That the inner city and the rally site was declared to a live firing zone is not an information out of a secret memorandum.

[Dudley23]

Anyone see the latest CNN report ask Weng why is there a guy with a picture Holding a hand Gun His comments just a Home Made Gun is a protection gun, her comment, couldn't he kill people, no no no could only go 10 metres is just a protection gun not like the guns the Army has, What a Joke these reporters are to gutless to ask the questions about the Blacks Shirts their Assault rifles and Mate a Gun is a Gun and that was that.

Just sit in the Red Shirt area CNN and BBC and just show the army shooting and be kind don't grill them too much because hey you do know the "Blacks" are there and if you do your next on the list.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Dudley23

[kissdani]

The women and children have every oppotunity to get out of the trouble that the armed factions are causing.

They fact that many of them are staying basically means that they support what the armed factions are doing.

If they support them, then they need to live (or unfortunately, possibly die) with the consequences.

Absolutely correct. It's called "collateral damage" or perhaps "thinning of the herd", "survival of the fittist", etc. The bottom line is, they seal their own fate with their own wise or foolish decisions. The choice is theirs.

Murder apologist.

"collateral damage" is just another word for killing innocent civilians. It is military lingua, the language of soldiers. The language of trained murderers.

Declaring a rally site to a live firing zone doesn't make the killings lawful or acceptable.

Any government that is willing to this is an dictatorship has to be kicked out of office soon as possible.

the UN defines these people as terrorists

they are not innocent civilians

From UN definition of terrorism

"In November 2004, a United Nations Secretary General report described terrorism as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act". "

By this definition the Issan Army occupying central Bangkok are terrorists.

Murder apologist.

a ten years young boy a terrorist, because you can copy and paste something from wikipedia?

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) on:

Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials

9. Law enforcement officials shall not use firearms against persons except in self-defence or defence of others against the imminent threat of death or serious injury, to prevent the perpetration of a particularly serious crime involving grave threat to life, to arrest a person presenting such a danger and resisting their authority, or to prevent his or her escape, and only when less extreme means are insufficient to achieve these objectives. In any event, intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life.

...

Policing unlawful assemblies

12. As everyone is allowed to participate in lawful and peaceful assemblies, in accordance with the principles embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, Governments and law enforcement agencies and officials shall recognize that force and firearms may be used only in accordance with principles 13 and 14.

13. In the dispersal of assemblies that are unlawful but non-violent, law enforcement officials shall avoid the use of force or, where that is not practicable, shall restrict such force to the minimum extent necessary.

14. In the dispersal of violent assemblies, law enforcement officials may use firearms only when less dangerous means are not practicable and only to the minimum extent necessary. Law enforcement officials shall not use firearms in such cases, except under the conditions stipulated in principle 9.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/firearms.htm

[jdinasia]

AFP: Amnesty International on Tuesday accused Thailand's army of "reckless use of lethal force"

AFP: Thai troops violate law in Bangkok action according to Amnesty

AFP: The London-based rights group said Thai troops were violating the law by firing live ammunition in several areas around Bangkok

AFP: "Eyewitness accounts and video recordings show clearly that the military is firing live rounds..(1/2)

AFP: ..at unarmed people who pose no threat to the soldiers or to others" said Amnesty's Thailand specialist Benjamin Zawacki (2/2)

AFP: "This is a gross violation of a key human right -- the right to life," he said in a statement.

Let us instil a sense of reality into the current situation

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Amnesty International on Tuesday accused Thailand's army of "reckless use of lethal force"

Let's correct it shall we.

Amnesty International on Tuesday accused Thailand's army of "reckless Red Shirts of using lethal force against a defenceless public who are not involved nor interested in their violent protest

The London-based rights group said Red Shirt terrorists were violating the law by firing live ammunition and instigating arson attacks and looting in several areas around Bangkok

Amnesty's London-based Thailand specialist Benjamin Zawacki.

Indeed one has ones finger on the pulse when one is some 9545 KM. away from the troubles.

'Twoud seem as if Amnesty International is but on a nodding acquaintance with the truth concerning Thailand.

I don't know why every organisation be it CNN, BBC, Amnesty is against THAI VISA keyboard warriors....

Roger --- keyboard warrior seems to be a very accurate description ... of you

Edited May 18, 2010 by jdinasia

[datum]

I don't know why every organisation be it CNN, BBC, Amnesty is against THAI VISA keyboard warriors....

It is not every organization my friend. Only those who distort the truth. Can you honestly say from your heart that the reports from CNN and BBC coming out of Bangkok are not biased towrard the red movement? I suppose you have seen them. If not then a reply is not warrented.

In all honesty I do not understand why they do not report both sides of the story here but they simply do not. It is all sympathetic to the red cause.

Well, according to the experts here, BBC, CNN, Amnesty International (Nobel Peace Prize on 1977 and UN Prize in the field of Human Rightin 1978) and any major independent organization are distorting the truth! This behavior really show how pathetic people can be when they see everything through their yellow or red distorting glasses!

[koosdeboer]

Anyone see the latest CNN report ask Weng why is there a guy with a picture Holding a hand Gun His comments just a Home Made Gun is a protection gun, her comment, couldn't he kill people, no no no could only go 10 metres is just a protection gun not like the guns the Army has, What a Joke these reporters are to gutless to ask the questions about the Blacks Shirts their Assault rifles and Mate a Gun is a Gun and that was that.

Just sit in the Red Shirt area CNN and BBC and just show the army shooting and be kind don't grill them too much because hey you do know the "Blacks" are there and if you do your next on the list.

I saw it. You're right "a joke".

[kissdani]

The # of deaths at the riots in recent days adds up to just a shade more than the average # of deaths on Thai highways every day. Not to lessen one category or the other, but are highways deaths (most caused by drunk drivers) less lamentable than non-vehicular deaths? We see some bloodied bodies on sidewalks, and international news agencies go ga-ga (as perhaps they should), but Int'l news agencies never do specials or show photos of the 30+ highway casualties that take place on any given day within Thailand.

Sound like something i read recently. The difference is that your sad mind mind means it for real.

Traffic Deaths Top Civil Unrest Deaths For 86th Consecutive Year

BANGKOK -- The Natural Disaster Prevention and Mitigation Department reported on Monday that there were 3,516 road accidents during the so-called “seven dangerous days” of the Songkran holiday, resulting in 361 deaths and 3,802 injured. This figure far exceeds the 22 dead and 400 injured in the clashes between the anti-government red-shirt protestors and the army on April 10.

It also represents the 86th consecutive year that road fatalities have far exceeded the number of deaths from civil unrest and political strife.

Additionally, the number of road fatalities exceeded the number of people killed by beheadings, shootings, and arson in the Deep South over the same period, as well as the number of Thais killed by poisoned food, environmental catastrophes, natural disasters, AIDS, drinking, drugs, tobacco, illegal abortions, suicide, pesticide-laden vegetables, obesity, voodoo hexes, vengeful ghosts, occult phone numbers, and karma.

In related news, the government’s plan for a comprehensive national, youth-tagreted road safety educational program was scrapped today to bake budget space for the army’s new Gripen jet fighters.

http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=892

[gymboy33]

Mr. Taylor the infamous African dictator charged with genocide has often claimed that the massacres committed by his troops were actually the opposition killing themselves.

now according to cres and the local goverment controlled media, the reds are supposedly killed by their own snipers or by terrorists associated with them.

how low can they go?

[rogerx007]

I don't know why every organisation be it CNN, BBC, Amnesty is against THAI VISA keyboard warriors....

It is not every organization my friend. Only those who distort the truth. Can you honestly say from your heart that the reports from CNN and BBC coming out of Bangkok are not biased towrard the red movement? I suppose you have seen them. If not then a reply is not warrented.

In all honesty I do not understand why they do not report both sides of the story here but they simply do not. It is all sympathetic to the red cause.

Well, according to the experts here, BBC, CNN, Amnesty International (Nobel Peace Prize on 1977 and UN Prize in the field of Human Rightin 1978) and any major independent organization are distorting the truth! This behavior really show how pathetic people can be when they see everything through their yellow or red distorting glasses!

Just 1 Nobel prize .... this forum has a collective count of 17 Nobel prizes spread into various fields...

Experts will be out any time soon..... they are making the time machine right now..

[rogerx007]

quote]

I don't know why every organisation be it CNN, BBC, Amnesty is against THAI VISA keyboard warriors....

Roger --- keyboard warrior seems to be a very accurate description ... of you

Never denied it or tried to prove otherwise ... its the "EXPERTS" like you who have a problem with tht term...

[kissdani]

Seems that George does agree a bit, with at least some criticism on the sensational part of the CNN stories, he just put up this pic on the ongoing thread.

I invite the cartoon steph to come down here in Praram 4 and look for himself. instead of seeking his informations from webboard like TVF.

[dhrobertson]

Also, why no condemnation of the way Red's children are being knowing held in a situation of danger by their parents and UDD. This is surely child abuse and a blatant violation of their human rights.

I would tell all Thai parents, that if they let their children be in a dangerous place such as the rally then they are unfit. After this ends, their children will be taken away and put in care. (Sadly, some of these f---wits would welcome it)

[jdinasia]

Absolutely correct. It's called "collateral damage" or perhaps "thinning of the herd", "survival of the fittist", etc. The bottom line is, they seal their own fate with their own wise or foolish decisions. The choice is theirs.

Murder apologist.

"collateral damage" is just another word for killing innocent civilians. It is military lingua, the language of soldiers. The language of trained murderers.

Declaring a rally site to a live firing zone doesn't make the killings lawful or acceptable.

Any government that is willing to this is an dictatorship has to be kicked out of office soon as possible.

the UN defines these people as terrorists

they are not innocent civilians

From UN definition of terrorism

"In November 2004, a United Nations Secretary General report described terrorism as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act". "

By this definition the Issan Army occupying central Bangkok are terrorists.

Murder apologist.

a ten years young boy a terrorist, because you can copy and paste something from wikipedia?

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) on:

Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials

9. Law enforcement officials shall not use firearms against persons except in self-defence or defence of others against the imminent threat of death or serious injury, to prevent the perpetration of a particularly serious crime involving grave threat to life, to arrest a person presenting such a danger and resisting their authority, or to prevent his or her escape, and only when less extreme means are insufficient to achieve these objectives. In any event, intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life.

...

Policing unlawful assemblies

12. As everyone is allowed to participate in lawful and peaceful assemblies, in accordance with the principles embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, Governments and law enforcement agencies and officials shall recognize that force and firearms may be used only in accordance with principles 13 and 14.

13. In the dispersal of assemblies that are unlawful but non-violent, law enforcement officials shall avoid the use of force or, where that is not practicable, shall restrict such force to the minimum extent necessary.

14. In the dispersal of violent assemblies, law enforcement officials may use firearms only when less dangerous means are not practicable and only to the minimum extent necessary. Law enforcement officials shall not use firearms in such cases, except under the conditions stipulated in principle 9.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/firearms.htm

And that leaves --- point 14 --- Violent assemblies. While that may be the way that you see it then the use of firearms is allowed.Anything else is semantics to be decided and yes in some cases the troops probably have made mistakes.

However, this being a case that can ALSO be described as an armed insurgency where the intent and ability of any individual cannot be determined from a distance then this probably isn't the the applicable statute.

Your example of the 10 y/o certainly is NOT applicable in this instance. The 10 y/o that was killed is TRAGIC! However, the troops were being attacked. They didn't fire at the child. They targetted the vehicle that was charging them. I do not believe the weapon that killed the child has been identified yet.

Now --- since the reds ARE armed. They HAVE used m79 grenades against a housing block that contained innocents and in doing so have injured a child. The M79 is an area affect weapon. The target was housing containing women and children.

When faced with enemies that are armed and willing to do that then YES people will get hurt and killed. The wrong people sometimes.

[jcbangkok]

Let's see what the body count is today. Anyone? How many woman and children have been cut down by ruthless Army murderers as they tried to make their way to safety.

None today, none yesterday, none the day before and none in the past months.

37 deaths

36 protestors (including civilians, rescue worker(s) and medics) and 1 Army men...

Maybe the reds need more firepower.

yep.. all 36 been suicides ..

Mich more accurate description than the OP

Edited May 18, 2010 by jcbangkok

[jdinasia]

Never denied it or tried to prove otherwise ... its the "EXPERTS" like you who have a problem with tht term...

If by "EXPERTS" you mean people that can get their quotes right ... then Thanks! Otherwise I am no expert, just an informed and interested observer (mostly), But I CAN do more than just add oneliners that criticize posters (mostly!)

[jdinasia]

Seems that George does agree a bit, with at least some criticism on the sensational part of the CNN stories, he just put up this pic on the ongoing thread.

I invite the cartoon steph to come down here in Praram 4 and look for himself. instead of seeking his informations from webboard like TVF.

Ummm at a guess I would think that he is more "in-tune" with what is happening than you. After all, he works for the press, while you are ... ummm ... on a "webboard like TVF."

He may very well work from home looking out over Rama 4 ... or not. The thing is he is at least connected to the press.

[rogerx007]

Never denied it or tried to prove otherwise ... its the "EXPERTS" like you who have a problem with tht term...

If by "EXPERTS" you mean people that can get their quotes right ... then Thanks! Otherwise I am no expert, just an informed and interested observer (mostly), But I CAN do more than just add oneliners that criticize posters (mostly!)

sigh..... I hope I am as good as you when I reach your age....

[jdinasia]

i sincerely hope k. abhisit is telling the truth that the gov. is not responsible for the cowardly assasination of sae daeng. whether sae daeng was guilty of crimes is something for a judge, not a sniper, to resolve.

many posters in RatchaPrasong plead: "no double standards". i sincerely hope that Thailand comes to adopt this much of the Red agenda.

Earthpig,

Veera is safe, don't get your grey matter all tied-up in a convoluted ball of flesh. Oh, wait, it IS a convoluted ball of flesh.

Many Western soldiers would not agree with your conclusion. The Army takes care of its own, if ya get the drift. Sae Daeng was not the kinda guy who hugged lawyers.

IF the Army killed the combatant Sae Daeng AND if were able to tell us his thoughts about it, he would say ... "excellent work. Jeeze, I'm an idiot for underestimating you. Must have been guys I personally trained" ...

Or .......................

Maybe he would say "hey, that was a violation of Article 85.1 Part A Section 3. A severe reprimand is in order."

Okay ... try this. Since you appear to want to learn more about Thailand and why it is different from lesser-but-more-developed-yet-warped nations like the UK you need a lesson in

1. เวรกรรม (wehn-gam) Google it.

2. รับกรรม (rap-gam) ... look it up ... Farang confuse this word with som-nam-na but they are not the same. I would never say som-nam-na (trivializes his death) about Sae Daeng but rap-gam (get-yer-kharma) is the truth. All Thais know and live by this. Remember when the Walenda father fell from a high wire to his death after ignoring warnings about high winds. If he had been an amateur it would have been som-nam-na, but he was a pro. It is not good or bad, there are no judgments when it comes to rap-gam. It is just simply the law. We all rap-gam. It can never be too early or too late (except for OJ Simpson who continues to defy the law)

You seem like a nice girl. No charge. Let me buy you a beverage when you are in CM. What does Earthpig mean, exactly?

-NG

While Sae daeng's death might be "against the rules" depending on who and why he was killed. His history certainly earned him the result he had. His own words damned him and it hardly seems fair to cry over someone responsible for as much death as he was when he met the same type of death. From the darkness and without warning.

(Again ... my condolences to Sae daeng's daughter, she is a brave woman!)

[jcbangkok]

What Thailand's 'red shirts' want ...

This is really a great interview, from last year, if you want to understand a bit more of the reds motivation and just how long they will continue to use the yellow shirts as an excuse for their years of violence.

Also includes a some great info in terms of what they want to do once they got Abhisit out of office.

[Neilly]

URGENT UPDATE: After five days, the Thai authorities were able to obtain a picture of sniper who allegedly shot Army Specialist Maj Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol, better known as Seh Daeng.

sniper

Nice. But on a more serious note, wonder if Abhisit is regretting calling Seh Daeng the 'chief terrorist' in light of him receiving a funeral sponsored by HM the King and Queen. Bet Mark's kicking himself for that now.

And now , no way the blame for any 'black shirt' activities can be pinned on Seh Daeng by the media now, so they need someone else as a scapegoat.

They got that one covered...page 4 on Reds Live-Tues

Sae Deang's Close Aide into Custody

The Center for the Resolution of Emergency Situations, or CRES, reveals that officials have taken Sae Deang's close aide into custody.

They claim that the aide has revealed that Nutthawut Saikua is responsible for the widespread acts of terrorism throughout the city.

[Lopburi99]

Let's see what the body count is today. Anyone? How many woman and children have been cut down by ruthless Army murderers as they tried to make their way to safety. None!? Oh, dear. <snip>

Does anybody in the world (other than this nut) believe this?

Excuse me while I have my day's puke - courtesy NaiGreg.

My apologies to NaiGreg. I had just gotten up, had my headache, no coffee yet, couldn't see the ground yet, and didn't have my head together yet to read it more carefully. I thought it was just going to be another outrageous post like some others. Of course it was sarcasm as I easily see now. My stress from all this is showing.

My sincere apologies NG, I am the nut not you.

Next time first. Maybe two.

[VictorMeldrewBKK]

I've just put another video up. It's gonna send the red sympathizers up the wall

Thaksin Empire State of Mind (In Bangkok)

Really excellent vid well done

Bought a smile to my face and a tear to my eye.

While not a fan of the musical genre or the NY Yankees I have to say well done. Particularly the sequence at 1:30 - 1:34 tieing the black shirt commandos of April 10 directly to the Red Shirt leadership. Amnesty my ass!

well thank you both

If you liked that, then watch my newer one showing how armed they are. It has shut up a lot of 'red got no weapons brigade'. please leave comment because there are many red sympathizers giving it the usual rubbish.

video showing red shirt weapons and violence

[FarangCravings]

I've just put another video up. It's gonna send the red sympathizers up the wall

Thaksin Empire State of Mind (In Bangkok)

Really excellent vid well done

Bought a smile to my face and a tear to my eye.

While not a fan of the musical genre or the NY Yankees I have to say well done. Particularly the sequence at 1:30 - 1:34 tieing the black shirt commandos of April 10 directly to the Red Shirt leadership. Amnesty my ass!

well thank you both

If you liked that, then watch my newer one showing how armed they are. It has shut up a lot of 'red got no weapons brigade'. please leave comment because there are many red sympathizers giving it the usual rubbish.

video showing red shirt weapons and violence

No one doubts a SMALL minority are armed that does not give the Military a free roll to MURDER 37+ people some unarmed and shot in cold blood

[Neilly]

Like many men women and children that disappears in Thailand, I fear we would never see Khun Veera ever again. I hope I am wrong.

According to Weng he's busy right now (from page#2 on Reds Live-Tues)

Talks ongoing for peace: Weng

Red-shirt leader weng Tojirakarn on Tuesday admitted his colleague Veera Musigapong was engaging in a secret negotiation to bring about a peaceful resolution and an end to the Rajprasong rally.

Veera, who announced the suspension of his leadership in the red-shirt movement over the weekend, has remained in contacts with the government and the military, he said.

He voiced optimism that Veera would succeed in stopping the bloodshed.

In regard to Monday's talks between red-shirt leader Natthawut Saikua and secretary general to the prime minister Korbsak Sabhavasu, he said he could not comment on the matter since Natthawut did not consult nor inform other red-shirt leaders about his action.