Marrying A Thai In England Part 2

[Desertexile]

Hello Gents (and especially 7by7)

As requested - the evidence from a case worker instead of the people outlined in the last discussion at:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Marrying-Tha...nd-t349736.html

Please read from the bottom up of the email trail.

Cheers

____________________________

Dear Nick,

Yes, you will be able to marry in the UK provided that the preliminaries outlined in my previous email are carried out. However, your intended marriage in the UK will not supersede your marriage in Thailand.

It is not within the province of the Registrar General to pronounce on the legal issues of any marriage, that is a matter for a court of competent jurisdiction. However generally speaking, provided that the marriage is contracted according to the laws of the country/state where the marriage took place and is considered to be valid in that state then there is no reason to suspect that it would not be valid in the UK.

I hope this answers your query.

Kind regards,

Xxxxxx

Casework Officer

Identity and Passport Service | General Register Office | Marriages and Civil Partnerships | Room C201 | Smedley Hydro | Trafalgar Road | Southport | PR8 2HH

T: 0151 471 4814 | F: 0151 471 4523 Email: [email protected]

To find out more about the General Register Office, visit www.direct.gov.uk/gro

 Please consider the environment; do you really need to print this email?

________________________________________

From:

Sent: 14 May 2010 17:59

To:

Subject: Re: For Rob Parry

PS Rob - I also state that I realise Thailand raises negative connotations. My wife and I have been together since we were both 20, and she is an educated professional - no mail order involved!

-----Original Message-----

From: To: [email protected]

Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 5:56 pm

Subject: For Rob Parry

Dear Rob,

Thank you for the email:

Could you clarify some points further?

If the marriage has no legal standing, do you mean that it does not supersede my current, legal, marriage in Thailand?

If I can prove that my marriage in Thailand is legal, attested by the ministry of foreign affairs in Thailand and consider legal by UK authorities (such as the UK border agency), then how can doubt be cast upon the marriage validity? And what are the implications of this doubt?

I understand that you advise against if for the reasons you detail, however, does this mean that if I request a marriage that the registrars office will grant and conduct the marriage? Essentially, if I make the request, provide the necessary documents (including evidence of current Thai marriage) and reside in the given area for 7 days + will we be permitted to marry in the UK and be issued with a marriage certificate?

Many thanks for taking the time to answer, Rob - I appreciate it.

Best Regards

Nick

-----Original Message-----

From: GRO Marriages <[email protected]>

To:

Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 2:23 pm

Subject: RE: Legal Question

Dear Nick,

The UK marriage would have no legal standing over and above the Thai marriage.

If you are considering undertaking a further marriage in the UK, I have added some information below which outlines the preliminaries before a marriage can take place.

A summary of the legal preliminaries required for civil marriage in England or Wales is that:

Both of the parties to the marriage must have lived in a registration district in England and Wales for at least seven clear days immediately before giving their own notice of intention to marry at the district register office. If both parties live in the same registration district they should attend the register office in that district to give their notices of marriage. If the parties live in different registration districts then each will need to give their own notice in the district where they reside. After giving notice of intention to marry there is a further fifteen clear day waiting period before the marriage may take place; for example, if a couple come into the country on 1July the notice cannot be given until 9 July and the marriage may take place on or after 25 July. The marriage may take place up to one year from the date that notice was given.

It is possible to marry in any register office or any approved premise, e.g. a hotel licensed for civil marriages by the local authority, in England or Wales. However, notice of intention to marry must be given at the register office in the registration district that the seven day residence has been completed.

When a person attends before the superintendent registrar to give notice of intention to marry they will need to produce certain documents. These include evidence of name, age, marital status and nationality. A current valid full passport is the preferred document or, where appropriate, a Home Office Travel Document, a Standard Acknowledgement letter or a national identity card. If a person has been married before they will also need to produce documents to confirm they are free to marry. These documents may include a decree absolute, bearing the court's original stamp, or the death certificate of the former spouse.

Depending on individual circumstances other documents may be required. The superintendent registrar of the registration district where notice of marriage is to be given will advise further on these requirements. Please note that photocopies of documents are unlikely to be accepted.

It is advisable to contact the Register Office concerned to confirm their exact requirements on the production of documents and to arrange when to attend to give notice of intention to marry. If the marriage is at an approved premise it will also be necessary to ensure that there are staff available to conduct and register the ceremony.

Church of England or Church in Wales

If you wish to be married in the Church of England or Church in Wales generally you will be able to do so only if you or your partner live in the parish - you should first speak to the Vicar. If he is able to marry you he will arrange for the Banns to be called on three Sundays before the day of your ceremony or for a common licence to be issued. The vicar will also register the marriage and there is generally no need to involve the local superintendent registrar.

Other Places of Religious Worship

If you wish to marry by religious ceremony other than in the Church of England or Church in Wales you should first arrange to see the minister or other person in charge of marriages at the building. However, the Church or religious building in question must normally be in the registration district where you or your partner lives. It will also be necessary for both of you to give formal notice of marriage to the superintendent registrar for the district(s) where you live. A registrar may also need to be booked.

The minimum legal age for getting married in England and Wales is 16 years of age but written consent may be required for anyone under 18.

The regulations above apply to both British and foreign nationals.

PLEASE NOTE

As a result of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, Etc) Act 2004 from 1st February 2005 if you are subject to immigration control you will not be able to give a notice of marriage unless:

You have an entry clearance granted expressly for the purpose of marriage in the UK;

Entry clearance is the granting of permission to enter the UK by an Entry Clearance Officer in the British Embassy/High Commission in the person's country. It will usually be shown as a visa in the person's passport or travel document.

Or you have the written permission of the Secretary of State to marry in the UK - this will take the form of a certificate of approval which can be obtained from the Immigration and Nationality Department. The certificate of approval will have to be surrendered to the superintendent registrar when notice is given.

Or you fall within a class of persons specified by the Secretary of State. This will be someone with settled status in the UK.

For further information, please see the Home Office web site on www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk or telephoning on 0870 606 7766 or by emailing [email protected]

As a result of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, Etc) Act 2004, from 1 February 2005, if you or the person you wish to marry are subject to immigration control, you will only be able to give your notices of marriage at a specially designated register office which you must attend together. There are 76 designated register offices in England and Wales. Please telephone us on 0151 471 4803 or see the following web site www.direct.gov.uk/gro or the home office web site at www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk

If you require any further information, please email me back.

Regards,

xxxxxxx

Casework Officer

Identity and Passport Service | General Register Office | Marriages and Civil Partnerships | Room C201 | Smedley Hydro | Trafalgar Road | Southport | PR8 2HH

T: 0151 471 4814 | F: 0151 471 4523 Email: [email protected]

To find out more about the General Register Office, visit www.direct.gov.uk/gro

 Please consider the environment; do you really need to print this email?

________________________________________

From:

Sent: 14 May 2010 11:53

To: GRO Marriages

Subject: Legal Question

Dear Sir / Madame,

• I am a British national married to a Thai national

• A legal marriage was conducted in a state Registrar's office in Thailand in 2002 after I first obtaining an affidavit to marry from the British embassy in Bangkok.

• My partner was also free to marry, in Thailand, as confirmed by the Thai government to the local Thai registrars office.

• The marriage is consider legal by the British authorities

• The marriage continues and has no ceased through divorce of any other means

My question is thus:

• We wish to return to the UK and conduct a full, legal marriage in a UK registrar's office, be awarded a UK marriage certificate, have the certificate signed by both witnesses and the registrar conducting the marriage. The reason for this proposed marriage in the UK is because I want my parents, family and friends to be a part of a full marriage in the UK as none were able to make it to Thailand for my marriage ceremony in 2002. I do not seek to renew our vows I seek, as outlined above, to undergo a full legal marriage ceremony as outlined above. Thus, I ask, is this legal under UK law?

Many Thanks and I will await your response.

Best Regards

Nick

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[RAZZELL]

I'm sorry, did you read the reply? You've answered your own question

It is not within the province of the Registrar General to pronounce on the legal issues of any marriage, that is a matter for a court of competent jurisdiction.

A cut and paste from a low-ranking civil servant won't convice me that you can get married twice! :D

Many people have "sham" marriages which are then deemed to be illegal

RAZZ

P.S I think the "no mail order involved" says more about you than anything

Edited May 18, 2010 by RAZZELL

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Why do you need to get married two times ?

If you wanted to marry in the UK why did you not apply for a Fiance Visa .

[ChangMaiSausage]

Why do you need to get married two times ?

If you wanted to marry in the UK why did you not apply for a Fiance Visa .

Maybe personal circumstances.

I had the same query a while back, I work and live overseas and only return to the uK once a year the Thai marriage was easy to arrange.

[Desertexile]

I'm sorry, did you read the reply? You've answered your own question

It is not within the province of the Registrar General to pronounce on the legal issues of any marriage, that is a matter for a court of competent jurisdiction.

A cut and paste from a low-ranking civil servant won't convice me that you can get married twice! :D

Many people have "sham" marriages which are then deemed to be illegal

RAZZ

P.S I think the "no mail order involved" says more about you than anything

Hahaha - well, a cut and paste from the 2nd in bleddin command and the counties registrar didn't convince you - even some case worker mirroring their points from the central Dept isn't going to change it. Still, thats three very different sources....and the latest just confirms it.

Either way - Im convinced. And so is the UKBA - they just granted her in doors her settlement based upon it :-)

[Desertexile]

But did you read it?

As for the mail order bit - well, I think that most of the issues 7by7 faced were from preconceived ideas of civil servants. Though, I do agree that the mail order bit says more about me for including it. I'm not old, my Mrs didnt marry me for security and she has never been involved in da trade, so yes, it does say more about me. 10/10 on that. I wanted to strip away their pre-conceived ideas which, unfortunately, tend to be grounded in fact when dealing with that women

[Desertexile]

Why do you need to get married two times ?

If you wanted to marry in the UK why did you not apply for a Fiance Visa .

Its all there in the post as to why.

As for visa - at that time, wifey had a 10 year multi entry - no need to reapply.

Anyways - good luck to all the folks who have been in touch and set a 2nd marriage in the UK - over and out.

Nick

[RAZZELL]

Hahaha - well, a cut and paste from the 2nd in bleddin command and the counties registrar didn't convince you - even some case worker mirroring their points from the central Dept isn't going to change it. Still, thats three very different sources....and the latest just confirms it.

Either way - Im convinced. And so is the UKBA - they just granted her in doors her settlement based upon it :-)

Well, where does it say it abides by the Marriage Act? Where does it say he's "second in command"...I read his signature - "casework officer"???

Also, my reading of the emails is that he's agreeing that your Thai marriage is legal, therefore the UK "marriage" does not supercede it.

"provided that the marriage is contracted according to the laws of the country/state where the marriage took place and is considered to be valid in that state then there is no reason to suspect that it would not be valid in the UK."

Also -

"When a person attends before the superintendent registrar to give notice of intention to marry they will need to produce certain documents. These include evidence of name, age, marital status and nationality."

When you say answer marital status - "Married". What do they say then?

Also, I'm pretty sure UKBA would have judged your wife on her "legal Thai marriage" not your "marriage" in the UK.

Actually, when I can be arsed I think i'll send an email to your "second-in-commmand" and get him to confirm that you can marry the same person twice without getting divorced!!!

Anyway, no point in squabbling.

RAZZ

[7by7]

As Razz has said, once one has read through all the superfluous gobbledygook (I wonder why you didn't edit that out), the answer you received is not at all conclusive.

It is also obvious that the respondent thinks that you are concerned about your Thai marriage being valid in the UK and he is reassuring you that it is, rather than making a definitive statement on the legality of marrying the same person twice.

Either way - Im convinced. And so is the UKBA - they just granted her in doors her settlement based upon it :-)

Again as said by Razz, either marriage certificate would have satisfied the ECO that you were married. If you showed them both they probably ignored the later UK one and judged her application on the earlier Thai one. If you only showed the UK one it is extremely unlikely that they would have checked it's validity.

As this matter was done to death in the earlier topic, that is all I have to say. If you have any further comments to make to me about this, I refer you to my posts in that topic.

In this post last November you said

My Mrs has a 10 year visit visa with each visit good for 180 days. We are currently in the UK and intend to stay for 6 months, then back to Thailand for 5 weeks and then back to the UK for a further 5 months before leaving.

Then in this one you said

Someone asked me why we didnt change it to a settlement visa - but we dont want to settle, we just want me to get this dam_n masters and then sod off abroad again.

If I may ask, what made you change your plans and when did she return to Thailand to get her settlement visa?

[Desertexile]

Razz - I got in touch with the Caseworker's boss - the UK's case worker manager: You now have the info from the counties registrar, the registrar's boss (and 2nd in command of the service overall) , a Case worker and the service's Case worker Manager:

Heres the email with the legal cases included - maybe 7by7's all round legal mate would like to comment on the cases (and the subsequent English law)

-----Original Message-----

From: GRO Marriages <[email protected]>

To: xxxxx

Sent: Thu, May 20, 2010 3:42 pm

Subject: MCP10/02976

Dear xxxxxxx

If a couple wish to re-marry in England or Wales after contracting a legal marriage abroad they should be informed that if they are already lawfully married to each other, the ceremony they propose will have no legal effect over and above legal marriage which they have already contracted. While such a ceremony would on production of a marriage certificate as evidence be registered in the marriage register, the marital condition of the parties would be recorded therein as

‘Previously went through a form of marriage at …… on …….’. (Razz - my UK cert, which I offered to show 7by7 states this)

If a couple wish to proceed with the ceremony, notice would have to be accepted and the ceremony would be allowed to proceed at the relevant date. (RAZZ - I did that also)

As to the legalities of the situation, we can only go on counsels opinion. Humphreys J in R v Ali Mohamed (unreported 1943) and R v Kemp R v Else Court of Appeal (1964).

Yours sincerely

XXXX

Casework Manager

Identity and Passport Service | General Register Office | Marriages and Civil Partnerships | Room C201 Smedley Hydro | Trafalgar Road | Southport | PR8 2HH

T: 0151 471 4803 | F: 0151 471 4523 | E: [email protected] / [email protected]

To find out more about the General Register Office, visit www.direct.gov.uk/gro

[Desertexile]

Oh mate, dont get upset about the mail order Mrs bit in the email. As to anything else which was superfluous, it was all necessary.

the answer you received is not at all conclusive.

Well ofcourse its not - it doesnt map into your opinion, does it. As neither did the previous 2 professionals or, I would guess the latest one from the case work manager - meaning 4 separate people!!!!

It is also obvious that the respondent thinks that you are concerned about your Thai marriage being valid in the UK and he is reassuring you that it is, rather than making a definitive statement on the legality of marrying the same person twice.

That isn't how I read it! I read it regards his reply concerning a proposed marriage in the UK. Also, I wonder how you will read the latest reply from his boss!!!!

either marriage certificate would have satisfied the ECO that you were married. If you showed them both they probably ignored the later UK one and judged her application on the earlier Thai one. If you only showed the UK one it is extremely unlikely that they would have checked it's validity.

Can we stick to the issue in hand and not compare apples to oranges? the UKBA is a whole different topic.

As this matter was done to death in the earlier topic, that is all I have to say. If you have any further comments to make to me about this, I refer you to my posts in that topic.

Yes, that's easier, isn't it.

If I may ask, what made you change your plans and when did she return to Thailand to get her settlement visa?

Of course you can ask. I was offered a position as Director of a UK based company, As for the 2nd part, I am not prepared to answer that publicly. Happy to tell you via phone or when we meet for you to view my marriage cert.

[7by7]

I know I said I wasn't going to make any further comments, but:

Can we stick to the issue in hand and not compare apples to oranges? the UKBA is a whole different topic.

Then why did you bring them up?

Can't understand why you wont say publicly when she returned to Thailand and got her settlement visa; you're happy to reveal publicly other details of your marriage. Surely you have nothing to hide? (I certainly haven't; it was November 2000 if anyone's interested.) But that's your choice.

As I have said to you many, many times; I have no need to see your UK marriage certificate as I have no doubt that it is exactly as you describe.

When I have the time I will look at those judgments. Until then, this really is my last word on the matter.

[Desertexile]

Until then, this really is my last word on the matter.

And so, the County's registrar, her boss in charge of multiple Counties, an unrelated, random case worker and the Registrar service's Case work Manger .....and I.....rest our case. And, if we are all wrong and a self-confessed unqualified forum layman is right - then there truly will be a shake up in the registrar service, no?

G'day.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Desertexile

[Desertexile]

you're happy to reveal publicly other details of your marriage.

I dont believe I have revealed ANYTHING which could be publicly traced to me. All the info could be any province or any county...

Surely you have nothing to hide?

I understand your strong desire not to be proven wrong - though do try and focus on the question in hand rather than trying to shift your focus by attempting to disprove the possible time lines for my Mrs obtaining a settlement visa, 7by7.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Desertexile

[RAZZELL]

Razz - I got in touch with the Caseworker's boss - the UK's case worker manager: You now have the info from the counties registrar, the registrar's boss (and 2nd in command of the service overall) , a Case worker and the service's Case worker Manager:

Heres the email with the legal cases included - maybe 7by7's all round legal mate would like to comment on the cases (and the subsequent English law)

If a couple wish to re-marry in England or Wales after contracting a legal marriage abroad they should be informed that if they are already lawfully married to each other, the ceremony they propose will have no legal effect over and above legal marriage which they have already contracted.

So, if it has "no legal effect", what's the point?

RAZZ

[Richard W]

If a couple wish to re-marry in England or Wales after contracting a legal marriage abroad they should be informed that if they are already lawfully married to each other, the ceremony they propose will have no legal effect over and above legal marriage which they have already contracted.

So, if it has "no legal effect", what's the point?

It would dispel any doubt as to whether the couple is married. If they were before, then they are still married; if they weren't before, well they would be afterwards. Some wives are very nervous about trusting that the marriage in Thailand is fully recognised in the UK.

A few years ago, a poster claimed that if the affirmation of freedom to married is not legalised by the Foreign Ministry, then a marriage performed on its basis would not be valid in Thai law. No-one shot him down on this claim, and anyone who had someone else chase the paperwork through the Thai system may be worried about a cosy deal between agent and registrar to share the legalisation fees. If my Thai marriage were not valid in British law, my daughter would be an illegal immigrant (or equivalent) rather than a British citizen.

[7by7]

Some posts deleted.

No need for childish insults; any more and warnings and suspensions will be handed out.

[7by7]

More posts deleted. Despite the warning above, certain members cannot resist!

Information has been obtained and provided and different people are placing different interpretations on that information. There is no need to direct childish insults to one whose interpretation is different to yours. If anyone wants a specific, legal interpretation on this; see a lawyer.

I'm closing this, and refer members to IJWT's comment when closing the previous topic

if anyone thinks it will help to continue by PM, please do continue to do so.