Off The Middle Path

[rabo]

Any economic "ism" needs a societal morality, a societally operative code of ethics, commonly agreed and practiced values as a society if it is to succeed. Pardon my pov, but the Judeo-Christian system of morality and ethics suits economic "isms" well, as evidenced by the successes of economic "isms" of several kind and combination of kind throughout the West. This is absent from Buddhism which, as has been pointed out, focuses on the individual rather than on society and social interaction, on the individual rather than on economics and economic relationships, on the individual alone not also on the institutions of society such as government, which deals with the distribution of power in the society etc. Buddhism offers nothing to guide humans in their institutional roles and relationships, post Industrial Revolution society especially.

From Mesopotamia to circa 1750 England and James Watt, humans had few material benfits to their static lives and only spiritual comfort, which is a sentiment that is deeply rooted over milennia so it's difficult for science in the modern world to break through that train of thinking and passivity. We've been emotive and spiritual for so long we continue to be carried by the intertia of accepting the ready spiritual answer. For those who don't like deism and wish to have the punishing god removed from the equation, Buddhism has great appeal. Buddhist economics however is an atomized and anarchic antithesis to economics itself, per se. Hence Thailand. Buddhist Taiwan has done rather well but due to many differences from Buddhist Thailand.

Maybe you can read things and recite things but you have little understanding about Buddhism, or perhaps religion as a whole, and your arguments fall apart easily. Buddhism is not about rejecting materialism or having things, it only makes the link between our desires and feeling of unhappiness.

Such desires can be about anything, not just materialism. A desire for respect, to be liked, white skin, dark skin, be smarter, be dumb but look smarter, taller, not age, or be beautiful. Contrary to your argument, the modern commercialized world where people are bombarded with messages to be smart, stay young, and want things could probably use some Buddhism.

Buddhism is not a replacement for economics, nor is Christianity. Your suggestion that a religion is somehow responsible for economic conditions makes as much sense as a religion preaching that non-followers are inferior.

As for Thailand, their Buddhism is why teaching them to hate one another will ultimately not work, and to me is the ultimate crime. And the ultimate question, is Mr. Thaksin a happy man? I doubt so. And since when did Thaksin become an economist? Corruption leads to economic stability for a country?

Your logic is unsoundly built on misunderstandings about religion. Unless you think that paying 100 times the manufacturing cost for a Gucci bag you were told to want brings true meaning to the human experience.

Edited June 3, 2010 by rabo

[Publicus]

Any economic "ism" needs a societal morality, a societally operative code of ethics, commonly agreed and practiced values as a society if it is to succeed. Pardon my pov, but the Judeo-Christian system of morality and ethics suits economic "isms" well, as evidenced by the successes of economic "isms" of several kind and combination of kind throughout the West. This is absent from Buddhism which, as has been pointed out, focuses on the individual rather than on society and social interaction, on the individual rather than on economics and economic relationships, on the individual alone not also on the institutions of society such as government, which deals with the distribution of power in the society etc. Buddhism offers nothing to guide humans in their institutional roles and relationships, post Industrial Revolution society especially.

From Mesopotamia to circa 1750 England and James Watt, humans had few material benfits to their static lives and only spiritual comfort, which is a sentiment that is deeply rooted over milennia so it's difficult for science in the modern world to break through that train of thinking and passivity. We've been emotive and spiritual for so long we continue to be carried by the intertia of accepting the ready spiritual answer. For those who don't like deism and wish to have the punishing god removed from the equation, Buddhism has great appeal. Buddhist economics however is an atomized and anarchic antithesis to economics itself, per se. Hence Thailand. Buddhist Taiwan has done rather well but due to many differences from Buddhist Thailand.

Maybe you can read things and recite things but you have little understanding about Buddhism, or perhaps religion as a whole, and your arguments fall apart easily. Buddhism is not about rejecting materialism or having things, it only makes the link between our desires and feeling of unhappiness.

Such desires can be about anything, not just materialism. A desire for respect, to be liked, white skin, dark skin, be smarter, be dumb but look smarter, taller, not age, or be beautiful. Contrary to your argument, the modern commercialized world where people are bombarded with messages to be smart, stay young, and want things could probably use some Buddhism.

Buddhism is not a replacement for economics, nor is Christianity. Your suggestion that a religion is somehow responsible for economic conditions makes as much sense as a religion preaching that non-followers are inferior.

As for Thailand, their Buddhism is why teaching them to hate one another will ultimately not work, and to me is the ultimate crime. And the ultimate question, is Mr. Thaksin a happy man? I doubt so. And since when did Thaksin become an economist? Corruption leads to economic stability for a country?

Your logic is unsoundly built on misunderstandings about religion. Unless you think that paying 100 times the manufacturing cost for a Gucci bag you were told to want brings true meaning to the human experience.

Your points about Buddhism as being more than a rejection of materialism are not only well taken but are well known. This contemporary and reactionary aspect of Buddhism is but a rejection of the modern, post Industrial Revolution world which has radically changed our lives and improved our standard of living, quality of life to include mass quality education, life expectancy, health and medical care which comforts and prolongs life in significant and meaningful ways, contrasted to 'traditional' medicines which are nothing other than the 'medicines' of pre- medical science, which itself is effectively only 100 years old but, which viewed over the past 50 years, is still much younger yet far more accomplished and promising to ourselves, our children and grandchildren than traditional/homeopathic midwife remedies.  

Yes Buddhism preaches against desire of power, glory, egoism, superiority/supremacy over others, vainglory, ego gratification and so on and so on. Yet Buddhist societies, whether the majority Mahayana or the minority Theravada, the latter being the dominant, observed and practiced form of Buddhism practiced in the former LOS, utterly fail to impress upon modern and contemporary Thais either the former or the latter aspects of traditional Buddhism. Instead and indeed, refugees from the West seem to be desperately pursuing the old verities of ancient Buddhism more than the local practitioners do or have done for some decades now.   

Not only are Thais grossly and shamelessly greedy, money grubbing and either power hungry or power mad, they haven't any empathy or commitment to their fellow Thais who by cruel and heartless design have been consciously and systematically excluded from participation in the recent economic development and growth of the country. Hence we are in the midst of the present unprecedented and severe conflicts and clashes between the traditional and intransigent Bangkok elites in their callous greed and the crude or cynical outlander elites and their peasant followers of the North especially.

I'd stated my acceptance of the premise that civilizations are founded in religions and the present absurdity of the fact, given that religions are predicated in various cultural reactions to natural phenomena that, at the time, were incomprehensible and unintelligible to the ancient minds of the various peoples of the planet. 

I've also stated that science is happily removing us from this primitive state of ancient man who was far more ignorant of the world then than we are today - not that we today are masters of the universe. I've stated that humans have been emotive and absent of science for so long - the entire 12,000 year history of human civilization, save the past 250 years since the Industrial Revolution and the Age of Science that preceded it and laid the groundwork of it - that the mysterious and mystical emotive appeal of religion is the immediate and easy, facile, refuge of those who cannot overcome the inertia of the long history of emotive and spiritual poof presto, weak rationales to account for things we better understand today.

Pardon what could be viewed as flippancy, but anytime I see a Thai sitting under the shade of a Banyan tree meditating, I know he's sleeping. Theravada Buddhism in Thailand for sure.    

[chaoyang]

AS most of you red shirters well know, the Maleenont family were one of the cofounding families of TRT, and were a stauchly pro government 'news' organisation<snip>

Why those f&*kwad red shirts decided it would be a good plan to burn down Channel 3 is beyond me. Probably just that the Maleenonts got sick of funding the protest, or maybe they never paid their share.

Perhaps the insightful Al Capone can shed some light:

When asked why he had a judge killed, the mob boss replied that the jurist "just wouldn't stay bought".

That's the thing about connections and corruption: the relationships must be renewed constantly.

[licentiapoetica]

Your points about Buddhism as being more than a rejection of materialism are not only well taken but are well known. This contemporary and reactionary aspect of Buddhism is but a rejection of the modern, post Industrial Revolution world which has radically changed our lives and improved our standard of living, quality of life to include mass quality education, life expectancy, health and medical care which comforts and prolongs life in significant and meaningful ways, contrasted to 'traditional' medicines which are nothing other than the 'medicines' of pre- medical science, which itself is effectively only 100 years old but, which viewed over the past 50 years, is still much younger yet far more accomplished and promising to ourselves, our children and grandchildren than traditional/homeopathic midwife remedies.  

Yes Buddhism preaches against desire of power, glory, egoism, superiority/supremacy over others, vainglory, ego gratification and so on and so on. Yet Buddhist societies, whether the majority Mahayana or the minority Theravada, the latter being the dominant, observed and practiced form of Buddhism practiced in the former LOS, utterly fail to impress upon modern and contemporary Thais either the former or the latter aspects of traditional Buddhism. Instead and indeed, refugees from the West seem to be desperately pursuing the old verities of ancient Buddhism more than the local practitioners do or have done for some decades now.   

Not only are Thais grossly and shamelessly greedy, money grubbing and either power hungry or power mad, they haven't any empathy or commitment to their fellow Thais who by cruel and heartless design have been consciously and systematically excluded from participation in the recent economic development and growth of the country. Hence we are in the midst of the present unprecedented and severe conflicts and clashes between the traditional and intransigent Bangkok elites in their callous greed and the crude or cynical outlander elites and their peasant followers of the North especially.

I'd stated my acceptance of the premise that civilizations are founded in religions and the present absurdity of the fact, given that religions are predicated in various cultural reactions to natural phenomena that, at the time, were incomprehensible and unintelligible to the ancient minds of the various peoples of the planet. 

I've also stated that science is happily removing us from this primitive state of ancient man who was far more ignorant of the world then than we are today - not that we today are masters of the universe. I've stated that humans have been emotive and absent of science for so long - the entire 12,000 year history of human civilization, save the past 250 years since the Industrial Revolution and the Age of Science that preceded it and laid the groundwork of it - that the mysterious and mystical emotive appeal of religion is the immediate and easy, facile, refuge of those who cannot overcome the inertia of the long history of emotive and spiritual poof presto, weak rationales to account for things we better understand today.

Pardon what could be viewed as flippancy, but anytime I see a Thai sitting under the shade of a Banyan tree meditating, I know he's sleeping. Theravada Buddhism in Thailand for sure.    

I have really enjoyed your posts in this thread, Publicus! They are very insightful and intelligent.

Many Westerners living in Thailand have a very romanticized view of Thai Buddhism - and also of the "joys" of subsistence farming.

Edited June 4, 2010 by licentiapoetica

[Publicus]

Your points about Buddhism as being more than a rejection of materialism are not only well taken but are well known. This contemporary and reactionary aspect of Buddhism is but a rejection of the modern, post Industrial Revolution world which has radically changed our lives and improved our standard of living, quality of life to include mass quality education, life expectancy, health and medical care which comforts and prolongs life in significant and meaningful ways, contrasted to 'traditional' medicines which are nothing other than the 'medicines' of pre- medical science, which itself is effectively only 100 years old but, which viewed over the past 50 years, is still much younger yet far more accomplished and promising to ourselves, our children and grandchildren than traditional/homeopathic midwife remedies.

Yes Buddhism preaches against desire of power, glory, egoism, superiority/supremacy over others, vainglory, ego gratification and so on and so on. Yet Buddhist societies, whether the majority Mahayana or the minority Theravada, the latter being the dominant, observed and practiced form of Buddhism practiced in the former LOS, utterly fail to impress upon modern and contemporary Thais either the former or the latter aspects of traditional Buddhism. Instead and indeed, refugees from the West seem to be desperately pursuing the old verities of ancient Buddhism more than the local practitioners do or have done for some decades now.

Not only are Thais grossly and shamelessly greedy, money grubbing and either power hungry or power mad, they haven't any empathy or commitment to their fellow Thais who by cruel and heartless design have been consciously and systematically excluded from participation in the recent economic development and growth of the country. Hence we are in the midst of the present unprecedented and severe conflicts and clashes between the traditional and intransigent Bangkok elites in their callous greed and the crude or cynical outlander elites and their peasant followers of the North especially.

I'd stated my acceptance of the premise that civilizations are founded in religions and the present absurdity of the fact, given that religions are predicated in various cultural reactions to natural phenomena that, at the time, were incomprehensible and unintelligible to the ancient minds of the various peoples of the planet.

I've also stated that science is happily removing us from this primitive state of ancient man who was far more ignorant of the world then than we are today - not that we today are masters of the universe. I've stated that humans have been emotive and absent of science for so long - the entire 12,000 year history of human civilization, save the past 250 years since the Industrial Revolution and the Age of Science that preceded it and laid the groundwork of it - that the mysterious and mystical emotive appeal of religion is the immediate and easy, facile, refuge of those who cannot overcome the inertia of the long history of emotive and spiritual poof presto, weak rationales to account for things we better understand today.

Pardon what could be viewed as flippancy, but anytime I see a Thai sitting under the shade of a Banyan tree meditating, I know he's sleeping. Theravada Buddhism in Thailand for sure.

I have really enjoyed your posts in this thread, Publicus! They are very insightful and intelligent.

Many Westerners living in Thailand have a very romanticized view of Thai Buddhism - and also of the "joys" of subsistence farming.

The electronic money transfer from me to you has been completed and cleared, so you can access your new influx of cash at any time now .

Seriously, thanks for your kindness - but more than that your sincerity. I hardly believe I'm worthy of it.

True, that from afar Buddhism can look appealing and profoundly meaningful. In S Korea where I lived and worked for two years, Protestant Christianity was almost sweeping the country. In the section of the city in which I lived, the skyline density of the Protestant cross at the top of so many new church steeples was great, present anywhere one looked in any direction one looked.

So the the same principle seems to apply in S Korea with respect to the distant and historically remote religion of Christianity as it applies to Buddhism and farang in the West who want to prove their great accumulation of material accomplishments and personal power, wealth, ego, private or public ownership and exploitation of others in their employ etc is somehow overcome by their becoming nominally Buddhist, a faraway religion noted for meditation, practioners living in poverty, a certain (idle) self reflection and among so many other local simplicities, the 12,000 year old glib lifestyle of agriculture or of the lone fisherman with a Grade/Form 3 "education" tossing out a small net from his tiny, old rotted boat.

Whether Mahayana or Theravada, Buddhism is centered exclusively (centered I say) in SE Asia. It's easy for Buddhists to feel a harmony Nature given the tropical climate which leads to misleading and deceptive notions to their philosophy of life.

Indeed, in other more extreme climes, Nature is a brutal killer to you if you live in Russia where the long and vicious winters are predicated on Nature trying its best to kill you - same applies to Canada, Scandanavia and other extreme cold or polar climes which don't have the perennial green growth of natural vegetation, crops and the natural comfort of lazying around in the heat that numbs the brain.

Numbs the brain is the key statement.