Uk Settlement Visa (15yr Son To Join Mother) Declined..!

jasonr3255 · June 4, 2010

I am looking at the options available for my step son who has just been declined for settlement to join my wife who already has been granted (ILR) in the UK in January this year. I would like to know if anybody else has been subjected to this reason of lack of evidence of sole responsibility for decline when their wife already has ILR. I will keep this thread updated and attach the refusal document as soon as my wife emails a copy to me. But quickly I would be grateful if somebody could give me a quick laymans guide to appealing. I am aware that you have 28 days to appeal, I am also aware that evidently the appeal gets sent to the UK via the British Embassy BKK. Could the application with the appeal be sent direct to me from my wife and I send it on to the appropriate office, or does the appeal get looked at in Bangkok first with the chance of being overturned before going to the UK for a hearing...?

Just to put you in the picture from the info I have been given from my wife and she translated word for word most of the refusal letter, it seems quite clear that the only reason for refusal was lack of evidence to support the fact that my wife has maintained sole responsibility. Having read previous posts on this subject this seems to be quite a prominent point, yet it is almost ambiguous in its ruling. I admit that we only included phone call lists showing regular contact and proof of money sent (monthly) during my wife's stay in the UK on her initial settlement visa as physical proof, and a documented letter stating that my wife has always had complete control of decisions regarding financial and emotional status of her son though he has always resided at his Grandmothers. So, what other proof could of been included to cement this fact....?. Also my wife was contacted by phone first to say her son would be called and interviewed over the phone, and was pre-warned he would be asked 15 questions which did occur on the 26th May. The lady over the phone also stated that my wife would also be interviewed after her son, but this never materialised. I was considering re submiting but we have absolutely no other evidence we could submit to prove sole responsibility, and we are mystified as to what we could possibly include to satisfy the ECO. My stepson has never seen his father, my wife has always had sole custody (papers included) and when my wife has been away from Thailand he always stayed with my wife's Mother. There does not seem to be a problem with the rest of the application as we both have jobs to return to in the UK and we had savings and acommadation all sorted. Ironically the ECO stated that my wife failed to visit her son during her settlement period in the UK, yet her passport clearly shows at least 2 or three visits during her 2yr settlement period. To contradict that request even more so, when one decides to apply for ILR they must also demonstrate that they intend to live permanently in the UK so regular visits outside of the UK on your settlement visa kind of hinders your chances of ILR being granted, yet the ECO would of liked more visits from my wife to go back to Thailand to see her son...?

Also in the refusal statement he goes on to say "Your Mother went to live in the UK in 2008 as a Spouse of a British national" well in fact she didn't, she came to the UK as an unmarried partner of a British National which was myself, and we married in 2009 after already successfully being granted to visits visas in 2006 and 2007 respectively. This also in my mind constitutes a lack of attention to detail with the way the application has been decided, and I can't help thinking this was declined with little notice of the more important particulars like "recourse to public funds" and other major stumbling blocks, and chosen to be declined on a seemingly insignificant point. My arguement is, if the ECO was not satisfied after only interviewing a 15yr on the spot who answered honestly through an interpreter, why did he not bother to interview the mother if he felt unsure as to a decision, after all, interviews are only conducted if the ECO can not make a decision based on what has been presented.

I am planning to upload the refusal notice within the next few days and I would be grateful if somebody who has had past experience in this situation to offer some sound advice.

We are deeply dissapointed and are wondering our next move.

Many Thanks

Jason

somtampet · June 4, 2010

I am assuming that the wife has not bought up the kid and falls short of being a mother.My brother had this problem and they interviewed thelad and they found out very quickly that the father raised the kid and basicaly she wanted to egt him to Uk for a better life and claim extra income from it.

somtampet · June 4, 2010

BTW

I go back to the uk at least twice a year for a few weeks,and have done so for 7 years to see my son,who is 37 now

jasonr3255 · June 4, 2010

BTW
I go back to the uk at least twice a year for a few weeks,and have done so for 7 years to see my son,who is 37 now

Thank's for your post though I am wondering where I can draw sound advice from it...?

somtampet · June 4, 2010

my brother got refused mate,they interwiewed the son for the true story,and the Uk are tightening up on foreigners living in the country.\

I hope things work out but the timing could be wrong.

snuggzzz · June 4, 2010

I'm sorry to hear your news, may I ask a few questions, when did you submit the son's visa application, what was the time period between submission - telephone interview - refusal letter ; did you opt for a telephone interview, as opposed to attending in person...??

I only ask as my stepson's application has just been submitted and I know the time money and effort that you've gone through...!!

snuggzzz · June 4, 2010

I'm sorry to hear your news, may I ask a few questions, when did you submit the son's visa application, what was the time period between submission - telephone interview - refusal letter ; did you opt for a telephone interview, as opposed to attending in person...??
I only ask as my stepson's application has just been submitted and I know the time money and effort that you've gone through...!!

The appeal whatever the outcome, has to go through the appropriate channels I'm afraid, I do know that, if the appeal fails contact your MP and keep me and others informed, particularly as it could appear that a blanket ban is being applied in such cases.

fvw53 · June 5, 2010

It has to be reminded that a visa is a "favour" given by a country and every country has its own - sometimes changing - rules.

There is no such a thing as a "right" to obtain a visa.

sumrit · June 5, 2010

Jason, sole responsibility isn't an insignificant point.

Proving sole responsibility is a very important part of a child's settlement visa application because, in Thailand, it is quite common for people to have a baby then hand him/her over to the grandparents to raise, with the parents having little or no input into the child's upbringing, and the grandparents making all the decisions in the child's life. The ECO needs to be sure that it's the parent who has been responsible for both the child's financial costs and day to day upbringing, and not a family member, with the parent acting more like an extended family member.

When mother and child are (and have always) living together it should be relatively easy to prove but when they live apart it can be more difficult.

If your wife's son lived with her before she came to the UK you'd need to show proof of that. If he didn't you need to prove that your wife, as well as being regularly in contact and financially responsible for him, was also responsible for decisions on things like his schooling, any medical care he needed, etc.etc.

After your wife moved to the UK you need to show that, as well as phoning regularly your wife continued with those responsibilities and that the money sent to Thailand is for her son's financial needs and not just 'to help the family in general'. School fees, letters,reports, for example should be addressed to her and not her son's carer. In fact anything that shows that, although living apart, it's your wife that's making the decisions in her son's life.

There's also a Thai document called a Por Khor 14 that your wife might want to obtain. Although primarily a document used to show who has custody of a child when no other documentary evidence exists (if the parents weren't legally married for example) the British Embassy seem to have begun to recognize it's importance more and more recently, and in some cases have even contacted the child's parent to ask for one to be submitted (although wasn't asked for in your case it seems).

It's basically a statement that your wife, along with two credible witnesses, makes at her local Amphur in front of a government official (it's similar to making a sworn statement in front of a solicitor in the UK) . It's a history of the child's life, from birth until the present day, saying who they lived with, and when. Who actually cared for them, who was/is financially responsible, what school they attended, again anything that would show who was responsible for the day to day upbringing of that child. The witnesses need to be prominent members of the local community (government official, police officer, teacher, etc) who have known both the mother and child for all (most) of the child's life and can verify the statement.

I must stress a Por Khor 14 can't be used as sole evidence of sole responsibility but can be a useful addition to back up other evidence you are submitting. Your wife could well need one anyway to get her son's passport if she doesn't have any other documents to she has custody.

Edited June 5, 2010 by sumrit

logansmith · June 5, 2010

I am so sorry to hear the problems you are facing it must be very distressing for both of you.

I am particularly interested in your case as my partner and I will be applying an almost identical application in the next few months, the only difference being my partner is now a UK national, but I doubt that will have any relevance.

My son-in-law now lives with my partners parents who are quite old, but before April this year he did live the father of his ex-wife, this had to stop because of his age and inability to parent him. Over the past four years that we have married and lived together in the UK we have managed to visit Thailand just 3 times. We telephone him 2, 3 or 4 times a week using a voip phone which we have the message history for, we finacially support him for everything in his life including his private school fees. My partner often sits on the phone for ages going through issues relating to his homework and other personal issues he may have. My partners ex-wife has actually been off the scene for years showing up on the odd occasion mainly for money. My partner has been trying for some time to get her in their village in North Thailand as the same time we are there in order to go to court to get the sole custody document, which we managed to achieve this April.

We just don't know what we are going to do if we face the same problems as you. The boy is just 14 years old and does not have any really guidance except what can be given over the telephone and in a fashion controlled by my partners parents (both in their 70's).

We are very inetrested in your case and if you don't mind will keep a tab on this thread to see if there is anything we can learn.

We do wish you every success in your appeal, have you ever considered contacting one of the agents that have offices in both Thailand and UK?

All the best

ThaiVisaExpress · June 5, 2010

Im sorry to hear your news you have the right of appeal.

somtampet · June 5, 2010

I am so sorry to hear the problems you are facing it must be very distressing for both of you.
I am particularly interested in your case as my partner and I will be applying an almost identical application in the next few months, the only difference being my partner is now a UK national, but I doubt that will have any relevance.

My son-in-law now lives with my partners parents who are quite old, but before April this year he did live the father of his ex-wife, this had to stop because of his age and inability to parent him. Over the past four years that we have married and lived together in the UK we have managed to visit Thailand just 3 times. We telephone him 2, 3 or 4 times a week using a voip phone which we have the message history for, we finacially support him for everything in his life including his private school fees. My partner often sits on the phone for ages going through issues relating to his homework and other personal issues he may have. My partners ex-wife has actually been off the scene for years showing up on the odd occasion mainly for money. My partner has been trying for some time to get her in their village in North Thailand as the same time we are there in order to go to court to get the sole custody document, which we managed to achieve this April.

We just don't know what we are going to do if we face the same problems as you. The boy is just 14 years old and does not have any really guidance except what can be given over the telephone and in a fashion controlled by my partners parents (both in their 70's).

We are very inetrested in your case and if you don't mind will keep a tab on this thread to see if there is anything we can learn.

We do wish you every success in your appeal, have you ever considered contacting one of the agents that have offices in both Thailand and UK?

All the best

In my considered opinion you do not have much chance,but wil keep my fingers crossed.The uk government will be allowing less immigrants in not more so you have less chance and every opportunity they will refuse.If you are very honest with yourself you havent got much chance have you but good luck

sumrit · June 5, 2010

My son-in-law (do you mean stepson?) now lives with my partners parents who are quite old, but before April this year he did live the father of his ex-wife, this had to stop because of his age and inability to parent him. Over the past four years that we have married and lived together in the UK we have managed to visit Thailand just 3 times. We telephone him 2, 3 or 4 times a week using a voip phone which we have the message history for, we finacially support him for everything in his life including his private school fees. My partner often sits on the phone for ages going through issues relating to his homework and other personal issues he may have.

On the subject of schooling try to get the school to address everything (school fee receipts, letters, school reports,etc,etc) to your partner and not the carer. Get a letter from the shool confirming that, even though you live in the UK, you take an active role in the schooling.

My partner has been trying for some time to get her in their village in North Thailand as the same time we are there in order to go to court to get the sole custody document, which we managed to achieve this April.

As well as custody, you will have to show that your partner has maintained sole responsibility.

As you've both lived in the UK for four years now proving that you've maintained sole responsibility over that length of time is going to be very important. You should be looking now at how you can show this has happened both while your parter was living in Thailand AND over the FULL length of your stay in the UK.

Good Luck.

Edited June 5, 2010 by sumrit

snuggzzz · June 5, 2010

I am so sorry to hear the problems you are facing it must be very distressing for both of you.
I am particularly interested in your case as my partner and I will be applying an almost identical application in the next few months, the only difference being my partner is now a UK national, but I doubt that will have any relevance.

My son-in-law now lives with my partners parents who are quite old, but before April this year he did live the father of his ex-wife, this had to stop because of his age and inability to parent him. Over the past four years that we have married and lived together in the UK we have managed to visit Thailand just 3 times. We telephone him 2, 3 or 4 times a week using a voip phone which we have the message history for, we finacially support him for everything in his life including his private school fees. My partner often sits on the phone for ages going through issues relating to his homework and other personal issues he may have. My partners ex-wife has actually been off the scene for years showing up on the odd occasion mainly for money. My partner has been trying for some time to get her in their village in North Thailand as the same time we are there in order to go to court to get the sole custody document, which we managed to achieve this April.

We just don't know what we are going to do if we face the same problems as you. The boy is just 14 years old and does not have any really guidance except what can be given over the telephone and in a fashion controlled by my partners parents (both in their 70's).

We are very intrested in your case and if you don't mind will keep a tab on this thread to see if there is anything we can learn.

We do wish you every success in your appeal, have you ever considered contacting one of the agents that have offices in both Thailand and UK?

All the best

In my considered opinion you do not have much chance,but wil keep my fingers crossed.The uk government will be allowing less immigrants in not more so you have less chance and every opportunity they will refuse.If you are very honest with yourself you havent got much chance have you but good luck

You really are indeed a 'little ray of sunshine' in the three comments that you have felt enabled to post Somtampet; your negative placatory responses are not helpful, try and help by desisting further comment, unless it contributes something positive....

7by7 · June 5, 2010

Speculation on the reasons for this refusal are, to be blunt, pointless and unhelpful. They only serve to muddy the waters and cause confusion.

Jason,

In order to advise you on how to appeal we need to know the exact reasons given in the refusal notice, that is exactly what the refusal notice says. (Bit confused when you say "she translated word for word most of the refusal letter." The refusal letter is usually in English!)

The appeal can either be submitted to the embassy or directly to the First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber).

When an appeal is submitted to the embassy the first step is a review of the decision in post, in this case at Bangkok. The review will take into account any new evidence, so if the refusal mentions any missing evidence you should include it. If the review decides in your step-son's favour then the refusal will be overturned and the visa issued. However, if the refusal is upheld then all the papers will be forwarded to the FTTIAC.

When an appeal is submitted to the FTTIAC, the procedure is the same; except that the FTTIAC first have to prepare a file and then send everything to Bangkok. This obviously takes time, so a decision can usually be obtained more quickly if the appellant submits their appeal to the embassy.

Appeals can be a lengthy process, so I must counsel patience.

Although not strictly necessary at this stage, you may want to consider professional representation should it go to a hearing.

See Refused entry to the UK (out of country appeals) for more.

Remember that the appeal must be submitted within 28 days of the refusal.

jasonr3255 · June 6, 2010

Speculation on the reasons for this refusal are, to be blunt, pointless and unhelpful. They only serve to muddy the waters and cause confusion.

Jason,

In order to advise you on how to appeal we need to know the exact reasons given in the refusal notice, that is <b>exactly</b> what the refusal notice says. (Bit confused when you say "she translated word for word most of the refusal letter." The refusal letter is usually in English!)

The appeal can either be submitted to the embassy or directly to the <a href="http://www.tribunals.gov.uk/ImmigrationAsylum/" target="_blank">First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber)</a>.

When an appeal is submitted to the embassy the first step is a review of the decision in post, in this case at Bangkok. The review will take into account any new evidence, so if the refusal mentions any missing evidence you should include it. If the review decides in your step-son's favour then the refusal will be overturned and the visa issued. However, if the refusal is upheld then all the papers will be forwarded to the FTTIAC.

When an appeal is submitted to the FTTIAC, the procedure is the same; except that the FTTIAC first have to prepare a file and then send everything to Bangkok. This obviously takes time, so a decision can usually be obtained more quickly if the appellant submits their appeal to the embassy.

Appeals can be a lengthy process, so I must counsel patience.

Although not strictly necessary at this stage, you may want to consider professional representation should it go to a hearing.

See <a href="http://www.tribunals.gov.uk/ImmigrationAsylum/FAQs/FAQ5.htm" target="_blank">Refused entry to the UK (out of country appeals)</a> for more.

Remember that the appeal must be submitted within 28 days of the refusal.

Thank you all for your replies, you have been helpful.

As promised I hope to upload the Refusal notice within the next 48hrs. Sorry to confuse you 7by7 the letter is of course in English and when I talked of translation I was indeed refering to my wife's Thaiglish. I have downloaded a copy of the document that I assume my wife is also in possession of IAFT-2 and I am currently studying it. Under the Sub heading "Documents to send" where it says "Photocopies of any other documents in support of your appeal" (In English or a certified translation) You should not send original documents (for example passports, marriage certificates, birth certificates etc.. I am assuming that you would still send the passport of the applicant..?

And I am also assuming all extra documents that are submitted with the appeal must be translated contrary to the original application where Thai documents do not have to be translated would that be the case...?

And they would "not" require the whole application including supporting documents that were originally sent..?

but only any new supporting evidence and the refusal notice...? would that be correct...?

Also if the appeal is sent back to BKK what is the usual time frame if a decision is to be overturned in BKK without going to the first tier and being sent to the UK, hence the question of including the applicants passport..?

Many Thanks

7by7 · June 6, 2010

You should include all the documents previously submitted, together with any extra ones in support of the application.

Translations would be helpful should the case go to the FTTIAC.

From the link provided earlier, you will see that if you submit the appeal to the FTTIAC then it will take up to 3 weeks longer than if submitting directly to the embassy. This is because the embassy cannot start any work on reviewing the decision until they have received the appeal bundle from London. Submit to the embassy and they can start sooner.

For settlement applications, the embassy must either overturn the refusal or send the bundle to the FTTIAC within 16 weeks of receiving the appeal. How long it will actually take is impossible to say.

jasonr3255 · June 7, 2010

BANG SHEET 1.pdf BANG SHEET 2.pdf

I have attached the GV51 Refusal Document that we recieved. I have also below written the covering letter word for word which we sent with the original application. I have outlined after the letter my thoughts and reasons why I feel we hopefully will have a case for appeal and a chance for it to be overturned at the first stage in BKK. I hope somebody can look through what I have included in this post and advise on how to set about outlining our new appeal letter and how to correctly challenge all the points in the refusal without trying to blame the ECO, but rather showing we had made an error in not submitting enough relevent information.

Dear Sir / Madam

Please find enclosed the completed Settlement application and relevant supporting documents for my son to join my husband and me in the UK. I have returned from the UK with my husband where I have recently been granted a resident permit (ILR). It was our intention to return to Thailand upon the result of my application in the UK, to prepare and submit this application with the view to having my son live with us in the UK under the settlement rules if the application for him is successful.

I can confirm that I have full legal custody of my son of which the document is enclosed. I have been the sole provider in financial terms since his birth, and I have been solely responsible for his upbringing, he has always lived with me prior to my migration to UK, his father left before he was born and has never made any contact since. Whilst I have lived in the UK under my settlement terms my son has been living with my mother at her home in Buriram. Although My Mother has cared for my son during my absence, I have fully undertaken the responsibility for providing for my son with financial support (highlighted payments on bank statements enclosed) and have made regular visits. I have also been fully responsible for his welfare including important decisions such as schooling and personal matters during my period away from him. During my periods away from him I have been in regular contact by telephone (calls highlighted enclosed) whilst I have been in the UK. It has always been my intention to apply for his settlement at this time, as I felt that applying at an earlier stage would have disrupted his Thai education, and he has now completed his English Schools Comprehensive equivalent of the Thai education system.

I have also included details regarding my husband’s financial and working status as he will be contributing to me and my son’s welfare in the UK. My Husband decided to take a sabbatical break from British Gas in November last year to ponder other career interests or the possibility of restarting his furniture importing company. However, because of the recent recession and economic decline in the UK on our return he will resume his employment with British Gas as an Energy Sales Adviser and I will continue with my work as a Health Care Assistant. We are fully aware that we must be able to provide for my son without recourse to public funds and we are certainly in a position to do so. We currently reside at my husband’s family home which is owned by his uncle. We are fortunate that there is currently no outstanding mortgage on the property and we are able to live in the property indefinitely and rent free. We are only responsible for the cost of Utilities at the property (Gas, Electric). The property has 3 bedrooms of which have one occupied solely by my husband’s uncle, the other is occupied by ourselves, and the third bedroom we plan to have as my son’s room. The property has a large dining and separate living room with adequate living space for all. We have included a letter from my husband’s Uncle that he is also happy for us to have my son live with us at the property indefinitely. Among the supporting documents I have included a copy of our certified translated marriage certificate. Please also note that both our Bank account statements are dated up to December 2009, this is due to the fact that we returned to Thailand on the 25th January 2010 and for some reason we had not received our January statements before we left. Also I have included a list of calls made to Thailand during the last quarter of 2009, please note these highlighted calls are mostly to numbers starting (0207) as they are through a calling card via London-Thailand. This we found was a much cheaper way of calling my son in Thailand. We are due to return to the UK on the 23rd May 2010 and we would be grateful if a decision was made at your earliest convenience so we could make provisions to all travel together should my sons application be successful. Please do not hesitate to contact either myself or my husband on 0802382502 or 0858574176 should you require any more information regarding this application.

Yours Sincerely

[/i]

The Decision

The ECO Starts off by saying that "in 2008 your mother went to live in the UK as the spouse of a British National":

Our Reply: She went to live in the UK as the unmarried partner not the spouse, settlement visa states this clearly...!

The ECO then goes on to say "there has been very little evidence to show there has been regular or consistent contact between you either prior to or since her departure".

Our reply: Our opening letter in our original application clearly states that my Wife has always lived with her son since his birth and up to her departure in 2008, My wife's passport stamp show we have returned to Thailand on Three seperate occasions since 2008, we failed to submit documents with my wife's address previous to 2008 showing that she actually lived in the same property as her Son and her Mother. It is her mothers House and my wife has lived there since his birth up to 2008, Fortunately she has kept many papers from insurance companies, local goverment and medical records that can link her to this address.

The ECO then goes on to say "You are 15 yrs old and you have failed to demonstrate that your mother has maintained you financially or has been involved in your day to day upkeep or welfare"

Our Reply: we submitted Bank statements for the last 6 months from my wife's UK Bank clearly showing regular monthly payments to her mothers account In Thailand. Admittedly we did not include any evidence of monetary upkeep for her son previous to 2008 because we would have assumed the ECO would know that His mother was living under the same roof and naturally taking care of him as responsible mothers do. We have managed to find insurance papers linking Her son and her to the same address but we are trying desperately to find documents to show she paid for his upkeep, what could you possibly keep...?

The ECO then goes on to say "During your interview, you confirmed that you discussed major decisions in your life with both mother and Grandmother and that you speak to your mother because you must as she pays. There is no evidence with your application to show that your mother currently has either shared of full responsibility of you." You have lived since birth with your maternal grandmother and you have stated that when your mother visited, of which there is no evidence, she does not stay with you in the family home. I am satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that your mother does not have sole responsibility for You"

and Finally goes on to say " given your current living arrangements and that you have lived for your whole life with your grandmother, I am not satisfied that you have not already formed an independent family unit with your grandmother and your half siblings.

Our Reply: My wife's son was interviewed by telephone as I mentioned in another post on the 26th May. I was quite worried that his answers would be interperated in the wrong way and I believe that be the case. He was asked all the usual questions where is you father who takes care who pays who do you talk to regarding financial and other matters. They went on to ask him " where is your mother now" and he replied in the house the farang has built, which is a holiday home my wife and I started to construct in 2009 just 1km from her mothers house, and we planned to use this as a holiday home when we visit. What the interviewer has clearly done is failed to investigate if my wife has lived with her son prior to 2008 which is the relevant period, as after 2008 my wife's permanent address is in England as it would have to be if you have a settlement visa, and this we demonstrated quite clearly with utility bills and bank statements linking her to our address in the UK. Therefore this period within our most recent visit where my wife stayed in our new holiday home does not even constitute any relevance as our main objective was to return to Thailand and to prepare this application.

It is quite clear that the ECO has reason to believe that My wife's Son has always lived with his grandmother, but we are going to have to prove that He has always lived with his Mother in his Grandmothers House. Another point to add is that all my wife's previous applications for visit visas show her mothers address and we assumed I suppose they would have naturally realised this as her abode. My wife is currently trying to pull together all related documents pre-2008 which link her to her mothers address to prove that she lived under the same roof as her son. But it seems we are struggling to find documents that would link her to her son's responsibility, Since 2008 My wife changed most of her Son's correspondence to be addressed to her mother, naturally as she was in the UK.

I am aware that many Thai ladies children are supported and looked after by the grandparents and I am aware there are many who probably don't even bother to take any interest in there own children, But my wife has always maintained responsibility and furthermore always lived with her children together albeit in the grandmothers house. My wife has two other children from a previous relationship that have also resided with her at her mothers and this was stated on the application, and I believe this has no current bearing on the current application. We have tried to do everything by the book from my wife's first issued Visit visa back in 2006, and it was always our intention to submit this application once my wife was granted ILR. We were even aware that continous visits outside of the UK during her settlement period from 2008 could have a detromental effect on applying for ILR. This we were aware of, as one must demonstrate an intention to settle to achieve ILR, yet the ECO in question would have liked more visits...? which is in direct conflict to gaining ILR.

I would be more than grateful if one of the experts could look at the info I have provided and explain the best way for us to challenge the decision in sensible manner like maybe admitting we should have included more but also that the ECO decision is not correct as to the true facts, of which I hope we can include conclusive evidence in most areas to support our appeal.

Sorry if everything is a little jumbled as I am not so good at structuring my info...

Many Thanks

Jason

somtampet · June 7, 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somtampet @ 2010-06-05 14:17:23) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3667784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (logansmith @ 2010-06-05 13:58:54) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3667735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I am so sorry to hear the problems you are facing it must be very distressing for both of you.

I am particularly interested in your case as my partner and I will be applying an almost identical application in the next few months, the only difference being my partner is now a UK national, but I doubt that will have any relevance.

My son-in-law now lives with my partners parents who are quite old, but before April this year he did live the father of his ex-wife, this had to stop because of his age and inability to parent him. Over the past four years that we have married and lived together in the UK we have managed to visit Thailand just 3 times. We telephone him 2, 3 or 4 times a week using a voip phone which we have the message history for, we finacially support him for everything in his life including his private school fees. My partner often sits on the phone for ages going through issues relating to his homework and other personal issues he may have. My partners ex-wife has actually been off the scene for years showing up on the odd occasion mainly for money. My partner has been trying for some time to get her in their village in North Thailand as the same time we are there in order to go to court to get the sole custody document, which we managed to achieve this April.

We just don't know what we are going to do if we face the same problems as you. The boy is just 14 years old and does not have any really guidance except what can be given over the telephone and in a fashion controlled by my partners parents (both in their 70's).

We are very intrested in your case and if you don't mind will keep a tab on this thread to see if there is anything we can learn.

We do wish you every success in your appeal, have you ever considered contacting one of the agents that have offices in both Thailand and UK?

All the best</div>

In my considered opinion you do not have much chance,but wil keep my fingers crossed.The uk government will be allowing less immigrants in not more so you have less chance and every opportunity they will refuse.If you are very honest with yourself you havent got much chance have you but good luck

</div>

You really are indeed a 'little ray of sunshine' in the three comments that you have felt enabled to post Somtampet; your negative placatory responses are not helpful, try and help by desisting further comment, unless it contributes something positive.... <img src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="huh.gif" />

Does the truth hurt you,I am on here to add,honestly my views,if you dont like my views i suggest you shut your eyes count to a hundred and delete.I have my brother in the same boat so i do know what i am talking about,unlike you

lectito · June 7, 2010

you may want to black out your son's name and date of birth in the letter that you uploaded.

7by7 · June 7, 2010

As you say yourself, the appeal should reference the evidence you did submit with the application and point out the discrepancies between this and what the ECO says in the refusal notice, as you have done in your post above.

You should also submit any extra evidence that you feel may help. Bank statements showing payments for the whole two years, for example.

I am puzzled, though, by one thing. You say that your wife and her son lived together continuously in your mother-in-law's house from his birth until your wife moved to the UK. Yet you also say that you were not married at that time and she was in fact granted an unmarried partners visa. This means that you must have produced evidence to show that the two of you were living together in a relationship akin to marriage and had been doing so for at least the previous two years. So, were you living with your mother-in-law for those two years as well? Is this what was said in her unmarried partners application?

jasonr3255 · June 7, 2010

As you say yourself, the appeal should reference the evidence you did submit with the application and point out the discrepancies between this and what the ECO says in the refusal notice, as you have done in your post above.

You should also submit any extra evidence that you feel may help. Bank statements showing payments for the whole two years, for example.

I am puzzled, though, by one thing. You say that your wife and her son lived together continuously in your mother-in-law's house from his birth until your wife moved to the UK. Yet you also say that you were not married at that time and she was in fact granted an unmarried partners visa. This means that you must have produced evidence to show that the two of you were living together in a relationship akin to marriage and had been doing so for at least the previous two years. So, were you living with your mother-in-law for those two years as well? Is this what was said in her unmarried partners application?

Thank you 7by7

I think you may have also unlocked another piece of evidence to substantiate evidence of my wife's residence at her mothers house. When My wife who was then my partner originally applied for unmarried partner settlement visa back in 2008 we had to demonstrate to the ECO that we had subsisted in a relationship akin to marriage for 2yrs. Well at our first attempt the ECO turned down the application on the basis that although my partner had known me since 2004 she lived in Thailand and I lived in the UK he accepted we lived together whilst visiting eachother, but he went on and refused the entry as there appeared number of gaps between our meetings and that was cause for concern and one of the gaps constituted a gap of six months. This was however not the case, we had actually never been more than 12 weeks apart in the preceding two year period, this was a mistake by the ECO and myself as one of the visa stamps in my passport had not photocopied and therefore did not show up on the photocopy.

We then re-submitted the application stating that Under The Entry Clearance Guidance Chapter 13 at the time,in the the last paragraph it says "Where a couple have been living together for the preceding two year period but have been dividing their time between countries and may, for example, have used the visitor category, then this will be sufficient to meet the requirement" The visa was then granted. I am starting to lean towards re submitting the application with extra documents and maybe pointing this fact you have also mentioned as all my wife's previous applications would have all been lodged from the same address as her mothers and where her son lived aswell

jasonr3255 · June 7, 2010

As you say yourself, the appeal should reference the evidence you did submit with the application and point out the discrepancies between this and what the ECO says in the refusal notice, as you have done in your post above.

You should also submit any extra evidence that you feel may help. Bank statements showing payments for the whole two years, for example.

I am puzzled, though, by one thing. You say that your wife and her son lived together continuously in your mother-in-law's house from his birth until your wife moved to the UK. Yet you also say that you were not married at that time and she was in fact granted an unmarried partners visa. This means that you must have produced evidence to show that the two of you were living together in a relationship akin to marriage and had been doing so for at least the previous two years. So, were you living with your mother-in-law for those two years as well? Is this what was said in her unmarried partners application?

Thank you 7by7

I think you may have also unlocked another piece of evidence to substantiate evidence of my wife's residence at her mothers house. When My wife who was then my partner originally applied for unmarried partner settlement visa back in 2008 we had to demonstrate to the ECO that we had subsisted in a relationship akin to marriage for 2yrs. Well at our first attempt the ECO turned down the application on the basis that although my partner had known me since 2004 she lived in Thailand and I lived in the UK he accepted we lived together whilst visiting eachother, but he went on and refused the entry as there appeared number of gaps between our meetings and that was cause for concern and one of the gaps constituted a gap of six months. This was however not the case, we had actually never been more than 12 weeks apart in the preceding two year period, this was a mistake by the ECO and myself as one of the visa stamps in my passport had not photocopied and therefore did not show up on the photocopy.

We then re-submitted the application stating that Under The Entry Clearance Guidance Chapter 13 at the time,in the the last paragraph it says "Where a couple have been living together for the preceding two year period but have been dividing their time between countries and may, for example, have used the visitor category, then this will be sufficient to meet the requirement" The visa was then granted. I am starting to lean towards re submitting the application with extra documents and maybe pointing this fact you have also mentioned as all my wife's previous applications would have all been lodged from the same address as her mothers and where her son lived aswell

Yes sorry I forgot to say, When I was in Thailand I was in fact residing in my Mother in law's house during my visits.

Livinginexile · June 25, 2010

You mention in an earlier post that your wife has 2 other kids!

Is her grand mother bringing them up too?

Do you and your wife intend to sponsor them to the UK too?

Edited June 25, 2010 by Livinginexile

7by7 · June 25, 2010

There are many valid reasons why the other children are not also coming to the UK; the obvious one being that as the child who has applied is 15 and the others are from a previous relationship they may very well be over 18 and so not eligible to apply for settlement as a child.

When my wife and step daughter came to live in the UK with me, my step-son was about to finish high school and had already secured a university place in Bangkok. After much discussion and agonising, we decided that it would be in his best interests to remain in Thailand and continue his education there.

Two examples of why not all of a persons children apply to settle in the UK with them. Of course, I don't know the reasons for Jason's wife's other children not applying; but whatever those reasons are they are non of our concern and are not relevant to this discussion.

jasonr3255 · June 25, 2010

There are many valid reasons why the other children are not also coming to the UK; the obvious one being that as the child who has applied is 15 and the others are from a previous relationship they may very well be over 18 and so not eligible to apply for settlement as a child.

When my wife and step daughter came to live in the UK with me, my step-son was about to finish high school and had already secured a university place in Bangkok. After much discussion and agonising, we decided that it would be in his best interests to remain in Thailand and continue his education there.

Two examples of why not all of a persons children apply to settle in the UK with them. Of course, I don't know the reasons for Jason's wife's other children not applying; but whatever those reasons are they are non of our concern and are not relevant to this discussion.

Think I will add to the Topic as it's live once again. My wife does indeed have two other children who she has sole responsibility for that live with her mother, however due to arrangements in the UK at present and the fact that my wife would like her children to finish there Thai education being that they are 7 and 9 before starting a Life in the UK seems a valid enough reason.Pretty much the same way we have planned for her 15yr old son. I might also add that we have decided to not appeal against the decision but rather re-submit with conclusive evidence that will hopefully substantiate against the ECO refusal reason's. It is quite clear that we failed to submit enough evidence on the original application. Thinking that because my wife already has ILR would automatically give her children the right to follow, may have been a mistake at second glance. Re-submitted yesterday fingers crossed this time...!

I'll let you all know when the decision is back around 8 weeks at the mo, If we are successful I will share the differences between the first application and the re-submitted one, so hopefully no one will presume the way I did. It's never just a walk in the park.......!

Livinginexile · June 26, 2010

There are many valid reasons why the other children are not also coming to the UK; the obvious one being that as the child who has applied is 15 and the others are from a previous relationship they may very well be over 18 and so not eligible to apply for settlement as a child.

When my wife and step daughter came to live in the UK with me, my step-son was about to finish high school and had already secured a university place in Bangkok. After much discussion and agonising, we decided that it would be in his best interests to remain in Thailand and continue his education there.

Two examples of why not all of a persons children apply to settle in the UK with them. Of course, I don't know the reasons for Jason's wife's other children not applying; but whatever those reasons are they are non of our concern and are not relevant to this discussion.

Think I will add to the Topic as it's live once again. My wife does indeed have two other children who she has sole responsibility for that live with her mother, however due to arrangements in the UK at present and the fact that my wife would like her children to finish there Thai education being that they are 7 and 9 before starting a Life in the UK seems a valid enough reason.Pretty much the same way we have planned for her 15yr old son. I might also add that we have decided to not appeal against the decision but rather re-submit with conclusive evidence that will hopefully substantiate against the ECO refusal reason's. It is quite clear that we failed to submit enough evidence on the original application. Thinking that because my wife already has ILR would automatically give her children the right to follow, may have been a mistake at second glance. Re-submitted yesterday fingers crossed this time...!

I'll let you all know when the decision is back around 8 weeks at the mo, If we are successful I will share the differences between the first application and the re-submitted one, so hopefully no one will presume the way I did. It's never just a walk in the park.......!

Good luck Jason, let us know how you go.

somtampet · June 26, 2010

My brothers appeal has been thrown out.They basicaly said if the mother wants to see the kid that much,go back to Thailand.They also pointed out that the father looked after the kid for years,she chose the daughter so a bit negative on her side.

As one poster stupidly said that i was being very negative in my posts,you can understand why,and i was quite correct when i said the uk government are tightening up.My honesty was based on plenty of info and i was right.

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Uk Settlement Visa (15yr Son To Join Mother) Declined..!

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