Home Theatre Equipment 5.1

[powderpuff]

Hello everyone, first of all sorry about the double post, got all excited by 'Stgrhe' saying he has found a Denon 3311 for 49,500 Baht (please pm me the shop name and location). I have just had some money exchanged from the UK and was hoping to pick up either the Denon 3311 or Yamaha RX-V3900 (anyone got a preference) from Piyanas. Unfortunately due to the exchange rate I didn't recieve as much as I needed therefore putting them both over my budget. I was then planning on picking up the Pioneer USX-LX53 this weekend as an alternative. Seeing 'stgrhe's post finding the Denon for 49,500 maybe I now have a choice. Has anyone any comments to make regarding the choice between the Denon or Pioneer.

Thank you.

This is a crowded sector. Pioneer Marantz Denon Sony & a bunch of others I can't recall off the top of my head.

I do not want to talk down any of these brands. Pioneer I might consider.

But if there ever was a company a brand which will absolutely always exceed your expectations it's Yamaha.

I am not talking about how it looks. I am talking about setting it up & turning it on & listening to it. Gobs of power. More power than you can ever need. The RXV-3900 is a wonderful product that anyone would be proud to have sitting in their living room.

Prepare to be blown away.

[Oberkommando]

Very happy with my Denon 3311 now that I have had it for almost a year. It seems to get better with each audition and copes effortlessly with Dolby TrueHD and DTS-Master Audio soundracks alike.

I saved 20,000thb on mine in Hong Kong which paid for my ticket and some of the hotel bill. You can probably find it cheaper in HK but I wanted a black one and so had to pay a little extra as they are rarer apparently.

[stgrhe]

Hello everyone, first of all sorry about the double post, got all excited by 'Stgrhe' saying he has found a Denon 3311 for 49,500 Baht (please pm me the shop name and location). I have just had some money exchanged from the UK and was hoping to pick up either the Denon 3311 or Yamaha RX-V3900 (anyone got a preference) from Piyanas. Unfortunately due to the exchange rate I didn't recieve as much as I needed therefore putting them both over my budget. I was then planning on picking up the Pioneer USX-LX53 this weekend as an alternative. Seeing 'stgrhe's post finding the Denon for 49,500 maybe I now have a choice. Has anyone any comments to make regarding the choice between the Denon or Pioneer.

Thank you.

This is a crowded sector. Pioneer Marantz Denon Sony & a bunch of others I can't recall off the top of my head.

I do not want to talk down any of these brands. Pioneer I might consider.

But if there ever was a company a brand which will absolutely always exceed your expectations it's Yamaha.

I am not talking about how it looks. I am talking about setting it up & turning it on & listening to it. Gobs of power. More power than you can ever need. The RXV-3900 is a wonderful product that anyone would be proud to have sitting in their living room.

Prepare to be blown away.

A bit of warning when buying receivers to be used with quality speakers. Check the impedance of the speakers as very few receivers can handle speakers with impedance below 4 ohm. NAD can but they are music oriented and not so up to date with regards to the video part. My Denon AVR collapses if I try to connect it directly to my Maggis.

Edited April 17, 2011 by stgrhe

[JackA]

I think something "funky" is going on with AVR's - they seem to have better specs, but "slim" down significantly... I had an Yamaha RX-v2700, which had no trouble handling my Dynaudio speakers 4 ohm (3.2 min). I later "upgraded" to a Denon 4308A,shich would shut down on me @ -10dB. I ended up selling the Denon and get the yamaha z7, which basically was an "updated" version of the rx-v2700. Skimping on PSU and capacitance is never a good idea... I am dissapointed in the "evolvement" of AVR's.... now I have an older Denon 4306, which is being used as a pre/pro with a McIntosh amplifier. I have compared my old Denon to virtually every brand out there and found none that match the sound quality of that oldie Denon (IMHO). And I just got the Oppo Bdp 95, which works fantastic as a D/A converter - and can playback flac directly from a HDD... Now the oppo is the centerpiece in my setup.

[stgrhe]

And I just got the Oppo Bdp 95, which works fantastic as a D/A converter - and can playback flac directly from a HDD... Now the oppo is the centerpiece in my setup.

Are you the one that snapped up the last Oppo BDP 95 from Piyanas in front of my nose? I now have to wait a month or so until the next batch has arrived.

[JackA]

Preordering have it's advantages... And I waited 2 month before getting the first one - but it's worth every baht and I got rid of my cd player and WDTV.....

[astral]

A bit of warning when buying receivers to be used with quality speakers. Check the impedance of the speakers as very few receivers can handle speakers with impedance below 4 ohm. NAD can but they are music oriented and not so up to date with regards to the video part. My Denon AVR collapses if I try to connect it directly to my Maggis.

I assume you are talking about the main speakers?

Does it have a problem with 4 ohms on the other speakers?

[JackA]

Most AVR's can handle 4 ohm fronts, but once you connect multiple speakers, they all seem to recommend 8-16 ohm. Many AVR's have "impedance switches", which will severely limit the current drawn. Most quality speakers are unfortunately rated at 4 ohms and even 8 ohm speakers usually have nasty dips into 3 ohms region, in the lower freq range, which in some cases can be offset by adding a powered subwoofer, and set the xover @ the critical point, but no doubt the AVR's are skimping on the amp section, but offer more features - hence the slimming down. Most people would be shocked to find out that their 7x140W, in reality would be 7 x 30W all channels driven.

Most vendors are also testing with 1 channel only and 6 ohm (onkyo). I only know three companies that dare to talk about "true" multichannel performance. NAD lives up to their claimed spec and usually don't bother about impedance. Marantz have a 65% guarantee (running multichannel) you get 65% of paper specs and finally Harman Kardon who have always been conservative in their specs.

When looking - look at max power consumption, a Harman Kardon 1272W (rated 7x80W) weight 20 kilos

another leading brand : 400W (rated 7x 140w) weighs 10.2 kilo. but with tons of features that HK don't have. If the device isn't class D the old rule still applies - a serious amp is heavy.

Edited April 18, 2011 by JackA

[stgrhe]

Preordering have it's advantages... And I waited 2 month before getting the first one - but it's worth every baht and I got rid of my cd player and WDTV.....

I called Chaivat one day two weeks ago and he had one unit left then. Stupid me didn't book it then and next day it was gone. Chaivat will call me when he get the next lot.

[stgrhe]

A bit of warning when buying receivers to be used with quality speakers. Check the impedance of the speakers as very few receivers can handle speakers with impedance below 4 ohm. NAD can but they are music oriented and not so up to date with regards to the video part. My Denon AVR collapses if I try to connect it directly to my Maggis.

I assume you are talking about the main speakers?

Does it have a problem with 4 ohms on the other speakers?

The Denon AVR 3311, which I am referring to, is only rated to handle speakers with impedance of 6 ohm of higher. My Maggi MG 1.7 does actually go down as low as 2 ohm and this is no match for my NAD power amp. while the Denon AVR "suffocated".

Another thing I do not like with AVRs in general is that most of their power ratings are done with only two channels driven.

Edited April 18, 2011 by stgrhe

[astral]

The Denon AVR 3311, which I am referring to, is only rated to handle speakers with impedance of 6 ohm of higher. My Maggi MG 1.7 does actually go down as low as 2 ohm and this is no match for my NAD power amp. while the Denon AVR "suffocated".

Thanks I will have to watch that when selecting speakers.

Another thing I do not like with AVRs in general is that most of their power ratings are done with only two channels driven.

Yes I noticed that, reading the specs.....

Naughty.

In the Uk there is a Trade Descriptions Act.

It sound like these companies need taking to task.

[stgrhe]

As I mentioned in my post #89 I would be back with comments on my set, but in the meantime I'll let you know the current status.

The Maggi speakers, the Denon AVR 3311 and the NAD T975 power amp. have thus far had a break-in time of only 50 hours, while the Motion Logan Motion center and surround speakers have clocked only 30 hours. I shall thus have to wait another 50 hours before I can give the equipment full justice.

Unfortunately I had problems with both the AVR 3311 and the T975. The former, despite put on a well vented place and a/c running in the room, kept cutting of after about 45 minutes playing. I brought it to Mahajak in Bangkok for repair and at first they claimed there was nothing wrong with the unit. Later they said the temperature setting was too low.

At the same time I had to bring the T975 to Conice for repair since two of the seven channels didn't work. Living in Pran Buri this was not to my liking. Conice was very professional and had a much better attitude than Mahajak and when the unit had been repaired they set it up and let me participate while they tested it. Very well done Conice!

After the two units had been brought back from Bangkok my player, the Denon A-11, started to malfunction as the laser needed tuning. This unit is seven years old and has been transported a lot so no shame on it for needing tuning. However, at the same time the AVR 3311 started to cut off randomly again. Also it appeared there were some issues with my Samsung TV over the HDMI-link, so back to Mahajak with the unit and it is still there.

Apparently, Denon has some software fixes they need to implement because Mahajak's senior engineer called me and informed me that Denon know about problems over the HDMI with some units from Samsung and Panasonic. We will see when I get my unit back.

[powderpuff]

Sorry to hear about your problems Stgrhe. Did you audition the ADCOM stuff at KS World? It looks really nice in the showroom.

It uses a similar layout to NAD or Theta or Lexicon for that matter.

[stgrhe]

Sorry to hear about your problems Stgrhe. Did you audition the ADCOM stuff at KS World? It looks really nice in the showroom.

It uses a similar layout to NAD or Theta or Lexicon for that matter.

No I didn't audition the Adcom stuff, but had a brief look (listening) to a pair of Quad speakers (can't recall their sub-name though) but at that time I had already decided to order the Magnaplaner 1.7, something I do not regret. Having said that, I have nothing against electro-stats, which indeed have a better punch than planar speakers, but for musicality I think the Maggis are superior.

The NAD power amp was simply chosen since it best matched the price / performance ratio and buying a better amp. wouldn't have given much better sound. Also Conice gave me a good price. The final contender to the T975 was the Parasound Halo A52, which sounded very well but were 15 thousand baht more expensive.

As I see it one must look at the whole chain. I was, however, very tempted to buy a Krell as Victor at Image gave me a very good offer. It would have burst my budget so I kindly declined and I am very happy with the NAD T975. With NAD you seldom go wrong. It wouldn't hurt if NAD put some efforts into their designs though.

[powderpuff]

Free advice: I would not rule out having to buy a 2 channel amp from Bryston (Piyanas) like the 4B to drive those Maggies. Everyone knows they are a difficult load to drive. The nominal 4 ohm could drop into the 2's at loud levels.

Alternatively Mister Balance can probably get you into an Ayre V3 used at 50,000 baht.

I know you don't want to hear this.

You have solidified my opposition to Denon with all the problems you are having. Yamaha rocks.

[JackA]

Sorry to hear about problems and just to let you know that

Proper HDMI switching have plagued a lot of avr's.And sometimes the issues are resolved via firmware upgrades and sometimes not. That's why I usually choose an

AVR with a "track record" - read older.

A small trick to keep your Denon colder would be, bypass the video processing functions of the avr, and use it only as a hub, to pass the video signal right through, as most players today already have such scalers built in.

Temp setting??? never heard about that one?? - but maybe the impdedance switch have bheen set to 4 ohms..which in my book would offer no tangible benefit as you use the unit as pre/pro only.

Once you get the oppo, I can assure you that want to bypass the whole video processing on your denon. - Rock on.

[stgrhe]

Free advice: I would not rule out having to buy a 2 channel amp from Bryston (Piyanas) like the 4B to drive those Maggies. Everyone knows they are a difficult load to drive. The nominal 4 ohm could drop into the 2's at loud levels.

Alternatively Mister Balance can probably get you into an Ayre V3 used at 50,000 baht.

I know you don't want to hear this.

You have solidified my opposition to Denon with all the problems you are having. Yamaha rocks.

Thanks for the advice but since I use the Denon as a pre-amp only the problem lies elsewhere. My NAD T975 power amp. has no problems what so ever to drive the Maggies. It actually provide the punch and the brilliance I was looking for. Also, when listening to two-channel music I do use the Denon's "Pure Direct" mode, which switches off all digital circuits and the display. Problem is, the Denon still cut off randomly.

[stgrhe]

Sorry to hear about problems and just to let you know that

Proper HDMI switching have plagued a lot of avr's.And sometimes the issues are resolved via firmware upgrades and sometimes not. That's why I usually choose an

AVR with a "track record" - read older.

I actually didn't know about these HDMI issues before. I knew of course what the different versions can and cannot do, so I shall have to find more information about the problems. To me it appears that the AVR manufacturers have started to gamble releasing unfinished products.

A small trick to keep your Denon colder would be, bypass the video processing functions of the avr, and use it only as a hub, to pass the video signal right through, as most players today already have such scalers built in.

When watching video I am afraid I have to use the video scaling until the Oppo arrives as my old player (Denon A-11) is not very good at that.

Temp setting??? never heard about that one?? - but maybe the impdedance switch have bheen set to 4 ohms..which in my book would offer no tangible benefit as you use the unit as pre/pro only.

The AVR 3311 has a built-in temperature control circuit to prevent the unit to overheat. I suppose Mahajak's technician meant that this circuit could be tuned or he just maybe pulled one on me.

Once you get the oppo, I can assure you that want to bypass the whole video processing on your denon. - Rock on.

I shall be looking forward to that.

[JackA]

A valueable ressorce for Denon AVR owners.

http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html

And it seems that it's music performance is

not that great either.

http://www.cnet.com.au/denon-avr-3311-339308669.htm

I think someone gave you a "good" one, concerning the temp

adjustment. But increasing the temp limit, might harm the unit, and

heat shouldn't be an issue as you're using it as a pre/pro.

My guess is that Mahajak did a microprocessor reset.

Yet another potential issue:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1300240

Edited April 20, 2011 by JackA

[astral]

Give the problems that Strghe experiences and the fact that he needs a seperate PA as well

makes me wonder if anyone makes an ARV pre-amp only?

With all the bells and whistles, upscaling etc, of course.

I know there was a Tag Hauer model a few years back that had good reviews,

but now they have reverted to the Audiolab label it seems to have disappeared.

I do not see the point in paying for a set of inbuilt amps that I will not use.

I used to have an old Harmon Kardon, AVR30 I think, but I had Audiolab monoblocks

for the front channels. Long gone, but I am looking for a good replacementfor that setup.........

[JackA]

I would cautionously recommend the Marantz AV7005.

http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=AVSeparates&ProductId=AV7005

The reason for "concern" - it's built upon the SR7005, which except

for faceplate is identical to denon 3311ci.

But so far, not a lot of problems have been reported with that one.

One have to question the price though.. Why is less more expensive??

Either the amp section in AVR's are really cheap - or the pre/pro's have

better internal components.

I also feel that Yamaha's AVR saeries are better than Denons lately.

[powderpuff]

NAD make a great pre pro that uses cards & thus forward upgradable.

[powderpuff]

This one has HDMI

Lexicon

This one does not:

Theta

[powderpuff]

HDMI

ADCOM

Edited April 20, 2011 by powderpuff

[stgrhe]

A valueable ressorce for Denon AVR owners.

http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html

And it seems that it's music performance is

not that great either.

http://www.cnet.com....1-339308669.htm

I think someone gave you a "good" one, concerning the temp

adjustment. But increasing the temp limit, might harm the unit, and

heat shouldn't be an issue as you're using it as a pre/pro.

My guess is that Mahajak did a microprocessor reset.

Yet another potential issue:

http://www.avsforum....d.php?t=1300240

Thanks for the links Jack. It is indeed very interesting reading. Having bought the AVR 3311 I still am prepared to give it a fair chance to prove itself. Contradictory to CNET Australia I found the units to sound very well in "pure direct" mode, but then again I have a different power amp than the built in.

[JackA]

Not telling you to give up on your AVR, as it seem - all have their teething problems. With all the DSP's and advanced equalization, something will have to suffer and these highly complex AVR's have more processing power than most workstastions do.

It seems that more and more channels are added, which should add to cost, and at the same time most vendors are locked @ different price levels.

Most AVR's have problems with hdmi switching and a simple heatsink on the scaler chip could solve most problems. Onkyo had such a problem, where the Reon HQV chip. The chip would end up @ 70 degrees celcius and the "famous" green lines would appear.

Adding a simple heatsink lowered the temp to 43 degrees. The onkyo have overheating probs, but it was the HDMI chip / board that overheated - not the amp section.

The old rule still applies - KISS, the most problem free AVR that I have encountered is the Marantz SR6003 - It simply works.

[stgrhe]

The saga with my Denon AVR 3311 continues. This is what has happened since my previous posts.

I brought the AVR 3311 back to Mahajak in Bangkok a week before Songkran. I then also handed in my older DVD player, a Denon A-11. The player had started to lose track of the discs and kept jumping back to the start.

At Mahajak I received copies of the two work orders and the only information provided by the staff was “Warranty” for the AVR and “Repair” for the DVD. I asked: “How is the technician going to know what the problem areas are if you do not enter the remarks I have provided for you”? The answer was “It is not custom to do so”. I therefore hand wrote the observations and remarks I had noted on the work order slips to help the technicians with their trouble-shootings.

After five weeks I called Mahajak, and after having been shuffled around to several instances, I managed to get hold of someone who spoke some English. The person told me that she would find out for me and call me back tomorrow. I told her that this is not good enough and I want to know the status of the repairs now. After a lengthly discussion during which she tried to find all sorts of reason for why I could not get a reply now, she finally said agreed to call the service centre. It appeared the units were ready and could be picked-up the following day.

Two days later I travelled up to Bangkok from Prachaup Khiri Khan where I live. When collecting the only thing that was written on the work order slips were “warranty” and “repair” respectively. I told the staff that this is not good enough as I want to know what they had done to the units and parts replaced, if any. They hadn’t got a clue and apparently the service technicians are in a complete separate location than the service centre at Sukhumvit Soi 3.

I finally managed to get in contact with the service manager, who apparently is new on his job. After five minutes of waiting he called me back and explained what had been done to the units. He also apologised for the lack of information and poor service and explained that he had been employed to try to get Mahajak’s Denon service in line with Denon’s standard elsewhere. He also told me that they have identified many sloppy areas and are working on an improvement plan.

Perhaps Mahajak will improve with the new service manager but right now that company is totally out of quality control. I wish I had known this before I bought my AVR or I would have chosen another brand than Denon.

The measures taken were:

AVR: Repaired poor soldering joints but no firmware update that I had asked for.

Note: The poor soldering joints were found when they followed a recommendation from me!

DVD: Cleaning inside and firmware update.

Well, back at home I connected the units, made a brief manual set-up and started playing a CD. It only took about forty minutes and the DVD cut off. Started again and now it took about five minutes before it cut off again. I then called the service manager and briefed him about the situation. This new SM seems to be fairly good and, as it was late on a Friday, he said he would get back to me on the following Monday.

I then updated the firmware and started playing a couple of CD without any cut-offs. Then I switched to a SACD but the DVD couldn’t load it. I tried several SACD without success. Then I had a go with a few DVD with the same result. My high-end multi-player was now a pure CD player. This told me that the technician who repaired the DVD player never had tested the unit with SACD and DVD, only CD. As a matter of fact, when I addressed this matter to the new service manager, he admitted that they do not have any SACD for testing units with! Amazing, isn’t it?

On the following Monday Mahajak’s service manager called me and said he would like to come down to Prachaup to collect the units and also to see my set-up, this because of Denon’s incompatible issues with some other brand’s products. We agreed that he will come done sometime next week.

Apparently Denon admits having incompatible problems with several other brands and with Panasonic and Samsung in particular. I have a new Samsung LCD TV with LED back-light using HDMI version 1.4a, i.e. the same as the AVR. Further, the cable is a 1.4a version too.

However, I do not see how any eventual HDMI issues could be the reason in my case as I use analog interconnects for the stereo sound from the Denon DVD and coax for the five-channel audio. Also the cut-off appears when playing music and also in “pure direct” mode with all digital circuits and the display cut off.

Despite Mahajak’s new service manager being very helpful, their technical service must be regarded as very poor and I have definitely purchased my last Denon product, at least as long as I am living here in Thailand.

More to follow in due course.

[powderpuff]

Thanks for the update.

One wonders if products purchased from Piyanas have any better luck with servicing & repair.

[stgrhe]

Thanks for the update.

One wonders if products purchased from Piyanas have any better luck with servicing & repair.

If they have their own service organisation and it is skilled, perhaps they are. I have only experience from Conice and I found them to be very good. Upon arrival with a defective unit they first connected it into an existing test system to verify the faults I had reported. Then, when collecting the unit, it was again set-up in the test rig, and this time to show to me that the unit had been repaired. Very well done Conice!

[powderpuff]

I think that Piyanas would just be the middleman. Since they sell lots of brands they are able to suggest products objectively. Just another layer of security & peace of mind. Piyanas do not sell NAD.