New Retirement Rules Update

[raslin]

I said I'd give an update.

Now I have it from the horses mouth: Suan Plu Immigration.

I can't have a one year visa to support my Thai wife as my pension is only about Baht 38,000/month. even though I was allowed to retire here at the end of 2001 under the old income rules.

So I have been screwed nicely.

I think I have to return to the UK now and leave my Thai wife to live on nothing in our (built by me) Surin home. My UK pension rate stopped increasing in 1987 when I came here.

I'm 71 already and have stopped working. Can anybody recommend an overdose of something? Then I can stop worrying.

Roger in Surin

[Sir Burr]

If you are legally married, I thought you only have to show 400,000 baht per annum in your bank account. This is less than the pension you receive. Has something changed? Maybe you should go see an immigration lawyer.

[george]

A multiple entry NON-O visa (valid 12+3 months) will make it. As you live in Surin, a border run is quick and easy. Don't worry - be happy!

[lopburi3]

I said I'd give an update.

Now I have it from the horses mouth: Suan Plu Immigration.

I can't have a one year visa to support my Thai wife as my pension is only about Baht 38,000/month. even though I was allowed to retire here at the end of 2001 under the old income rules.

So I have been screwed nicely.

I think I have to return to the UK now and leave my Thai wife to live on nothing in our (built by me) Surin home. My UK pension rate stopped increasing in 1987 when I came here.

I'm  71 already and have stopped working. Can anybody recommend an overdose of something? Then I can stop worrying.

Roger in Surin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you have a bank account with some savings that can be used to make up the shortfall? That should be acceptable to immigration. If not immediately perhaps in a few months? I would ask immigration rather than give up and going to below step.

As you probably know, having been here 18 years, the alternative multi entry O visa from Penang should be available.

[Thetyim]

If you go back to Uk and get an address your pension will then be updated to the current value.

Then you can emigrate again.

[wca01]

12 x 38,000 Baht = 456,000 Baht is enough to get the visa if you are legally married.

Here is the sample why I always prefer to have a lawyer on my side when discussing with officials.

WC

[khunlungphudhu]

Raslin, I do appreciate your position, and I feel sure that the other members here will provide a few solutions that you will find workable, and definitly one that you will be happy to work with.

This is a major headache for any Brit thinking of a life in the sun, and without it, there would be far fewer 'whinging poms'.

Ex-pat pensioners constitute 4 per cent of the UK pensioners, yet successive governments see it as saving money by screwing them out of a miserly 1 or 1.5 percent increase each year.

Hopefully we can get it changed, no sign of it yet, but that does not stop us trying!

Good luck mate, I am sure you will still be there when I get there!

[phuketrichard]

YES;

its so easy to do,

borrow 400,000 ( as your marreid to a thai that is all you need to show) put it in your bank. get the bank to issue you a note stating same. go to immigration... get your visa... then go take the money back out and give it back to your friend..

Raise your hands all that have done this!!

[Thetyim]

Richard,

It is doubtful that this tactic will work but the next year you will not get your visa. Immigration check your bank passbook to stop this happening.

[phuketrichard]

where did you get your info?

that's not true. I and many friends have been doing it for years.

they can look at your bankbook BUT they cannot stop you from taking out YOUR money.

Are you saying I have to leave my 800,000 in the bank at 1.2% interets when I can make 5times that or more elsewhere?

[lampard10]

I said I'd give an update.

Now I have it from the horses mouth: Suan Plu Immigration.

I can't have a one year visa to support my Thai wife as my pension is only about Baht 38,000/month. even though I was allowed to retire here at the end of 2001 under the old income rules.

So I have been screwed nicely.

I think I have to return to the UK now and leave my Thai wife to live on nothing in our (built by me) Surin home. My UK pension rate stopped increasing in 1987 when I came here.

I'm  71 already and have stopped working. Can anybody recommend an overdose of something? Then I can stop worrying.

Roger in Surin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you live in Surin, why not Kap Choeng immigration. They are so helpful there, they suggested to me various way to apply. Areyou one of our customers? I am not sure if I know a Roger. If not pop in for a chat. You'll find us in Surin bus station.

[raslin]

12 x 38,000 Baht = 456,000 Baht is enough to get the visa if you are legally married.

Here is the sample why I always prefer to have a lawyer on my side when discussing with officials.

WC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You right, of course. Immigration is not known for its maths.

I have to go to the UK for a couple of weeks next month and will go to Suan Plu with a lawyer on my return before going home.

With luck I'll be able to stop at Lamps for a chat as well.

Roger

[Martin]

Thetyim says: " If you go back to Uk and get an address your pension will then be updated to the current value.

Then you can emigrate again."

Does this really work? What are the details? I have a nasty feeling that I have read somewhere that you can only have the 'today's price' pension for the time that you are back in the UK, and that when you leave UK the pension drops back to the level it was when you first went to reside abroad (i.e. 1971 in raslin's case).

If somebody can quote 'chapter and verse', please do so. It is a matter that will affect a lot of Brits who would like to retire here when they reach 65.

[GuestHouse]

Firstly, you have my complete sympathy regarding the disgraceful treatment you, and others, receive as an expatriate pensioner.

You place no demands on any other British service other than to demand your RIGHT to a fair pension (you might occassionaly ask for some minor Consular Service from the clowns down on Wireless Road) but appart from that you don't use the NHS, Social Services, you don't get a winter fuel allowance and you don't get a bus pass.

You are a very cheap pensioner.

However, you are also an invisible pensioner, and the way to remidy that is write to the people who have control over these issues UK Ministers With Responsibility for Reform

Also write to your local UK MP (The one for your last address) and for best effect write to the Oposition Shaddow Minister for pensions, I'll post details later.

And if you have the time write to the press - I would suggest an Open Letter to Mr Blunkett via the Telegraph and possibly the Independent/Guardian might help.

Shame the Barstewards into doing the right thing.

One thing is for sure, while expatriate pensioners remain silent they will be ignored.

[GuestHouse]

Your Tory Shodow Minister for Pensions is Nigel Waterson MP

Your Liberal Shadow Minister for Pensions is Paul Holmes MP

Write to these people and make them answer to you.

Just because you are living in Thailand does not mean you are not entitled to fair treatment and it certainly does not mean you have to do as the Thais do and take what ever crumbs your MP decides to hand down to you.

Get active - Get your rights.

[briley]

Regarding the UK pension a few points:

The pension goes up to the full rate the minute you enter the UK - but unless you stay over 6 months it drops back to the same rate as before on departure.

But the UK pension authorities have no access to your dates of entering and leaving the UK.

If you return to the UK and get an address (any, relative etc is fine so long as they will pass on the mail) then you get full pension paid straight into your UK bank account.

Then return to Thailand and enjoy life. On the odd occasions that the pensions agancy contact you you have weeks to reply, and even if you are a little late just say you were on holiday. Old people make mistakes :-) Just make sure all letter to the pensions agency are posted in the UK.

The UK pension rules are so unfair this is the one case I approve of breaking the rules - after all at 71 they might not send you to prision!

[Rinrada]

Its a disgrace that a pensioner living in Manila is OK on updated pittance (got Agreement) but if you are in Bangers...hard luck.

Agree with above Get Writing

I am fairly confident that these "rules could /will change "one day but would prefer sooner than later

anyway...bit of info and a few things you might want to to ask yer-self.....

Frequently asked questions:

Living overseas

Have you notified The Pension Service of your current address?

Failure to do so may result in correspondence being sent to the wrong address and suspension of your pension.

When can I claim my UK State Pension?

How much State Pension will I get?

How do I claim my pension?

Can I take up my State Pension later?

What about other countries where I have been insured?

How will my claim be worked out?

Will I receive a pension from each country?

Can my UK pension be paid to me while I am in another EEA country?

How will my pension be paid to me?

Can I get extra for my dependants?

What if I have children and am living in another EEA country?

What is an EEA country?

Which countries does the UK have an a social security agreement with?

What if I have lived in Canada, New Zealand or Australia? or THAILAND

What about other benefits and entitlements?

What if I am not living in the EEA or an agreement country?

More information

When can I claim my UK State Pension?

The UK State Pension age is 65 for men and 60 for women. The State Pension age for women is changing and will gradually increase from 60 to 65 between 2010 and 2020.

Use our State Pension Age calculator to work out your State Pension age

How much State Pension will I get?

If you are more than four months away from UK State Pension age you can request a State Pension Forecast which will tell you what UK State Pension you can expect to get.

A State Pension Forecast tells you in today's money values:

the amount of State Pension you have earned already and

the amount of State Pension you can expect at State Pension age based on what you have earned already and what you might earn before you reach State Pension age.

But it will not include any insurance contributions you may have paid in another EEA country, or country with which the UK has a social security agreement.

Find out more about State Pension Forecasts in our A to Z section

Pension Forecasts for overseas customers are dealt with by HM Revenue & Customs. Find out more on HM Revenue & Customs website.

Find out more about the EEA

Find out more about countries the UK has a social security agreement with

the UK

How do I claim my pension?

If you have paid National Insurance contributions in the UK we will usually send you a claim form about four months before you reach UK State Pension age.

This form asks you to tell us about any insurance and residence you may have in other countries.

Find out more about National Insurance contributions in the A to Z section

Contact The Pension Service from overseas if you are less than four months away from State Pension age and you have not received a claim pack.

Can take up my State Pension later?

If you're thinking of taking up your State Pension later, find out more in the State Pension deferral section on the Department for Work and Pensions website.

What about other countries where I have been insured?

If you claim State Pension in the EEA or agreement country where you live, that country will pass details of your claim to any other EEA or agreement country where you have been insured.

Find out more about the EEA

How will my claim be worked out?

Each EEA or agreement country where you have paid insurance contributions towards a pension will look at your contributions under its own scheme and will work out how much (if any) pension you can have under its own rules.

Any insurance contributions you have made in another EEA or agreement country may be taken into account if it will help you to get a state pension, or a higher state pension.

Find out more about the EEA

Will I receive a pension from each country?

Yes, you will receive a pension from each EEA or agreement country where you have made insurance contributions, if you have at least the minimum amount of insurance contributions required in each country to qualify.

Each country adds together your insurance contributions from all EEA countries. Then each country sees how much state pension (if any) you would get if your insurance contributions had all been paid into that country’s own social security scheme.

However, each country pays you part of your pension. How much that country pays you depends on how much you have paid into its scheme.

Can my UK pension be paid to me while I am in another EEA country?

You can be paid a UK State Pension (with an extra amount if you are aged 80 or more), in any other EEA or agreement country.

You will get the same as you would get in the UK.

Find out about how much State Pension you might get in the A to Z section, or by getting a State Pension Forecast from HM Revenue & Customs. Forecasts for overseas customers are dealt with by HM Revenue & Customs.

Find out more on the HM Revenue & Customs website

How will my pension be paid to me?

How your pension is paid to you depends on where you are living and where your bank account is.

Select the country you live in from the drop down menu to find out how your pension can be paid to you.

Choose your country to find the form to use

Antigua Australia Austria Bahamas Barbados Belgium Canada Cyprus Denmark Dominica Dominican Republic Finland France Germany Grenada Guyana Hong Kong Italy Ireland Israel Jamaica Luxembourg Malta Monaco Netherlands New Zealand Norway Portugal Spain St Kitts & Nevis St Lucia St Vincent South Africa Sweden Switzerland Trinidad & Tobago USA Other - not listed

Can I get extra for my dependants?

If you get a State Pension from the UK, you may also be paid extra for certain adults who depend on you.

You may get this extra payment even if the person who depends on you is in the UK. The extra pension will be worked out in the same way as the rest of your State Pension.

What if I have children and am living in another EEA country?

If the EEA country you live in pays you a pension, it should pay the benefits for your children, too.The EEA country that you live in will base your children’s benefits on its own scheme. If you do not get a pension in the country where you live, and you and your husband or your wife are not working, the benefits for your children will be paid by either:

the country that you get a pension from or

if you get a pension from two countries, the country where you were paying insurance contributions for the longest time.

The National Insurance contributions you have paid in the UK may be used by other EEA countries when they decide what benefit you can get.

What is an EEA country?

The European Economic Area (EEA) is made up of all European Union countries – Austria, Belgium, Czeckh Republic, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Ireland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway.

The UK is also part of the EEA. The UK comprises England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The UK does not include the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.

Switzerland is not a member of the EEA but from 1 June 2002 the European Community (EC) rules on social security have covered Switzerland.

Which countries does the UK have a social security agreement with ?

The countries referred to in the these FAQs which the UK has agreements with are:

Barbados, Bermuda, Cyprus, Israel, Jamaica, Jersey and Guernsey, Malta, Mauritius, Philippines, Turkey, USA, Yugoslavia (applies to the Republics of the former Yugoslavia)

Find out about social security agreement with other countries on the Department for Work and Pensions website

What if I have lived in Canada, New Zealand or Australia?

There are special agreements with Canada and New Zealand which allow periods of residence in those countries to count towards your pension in the UK, as long as you are actually living in the UK.

A similar agreement with Australia ended on 28 February 2001, but a period you spent in Australia before that date may still count towards your UK pension, again provided you are actually living in the UK. To learn about your right of appeal, go to the Department for Work and Pensions website

For Canada read or print the Department for Work and Pensions leaflet on the Social Security agreement between the United Kingdom and Canada.

For New Zealand read or print the Department for Work and Pensions leaflet on the Social Security agreement between the United Kingdom and New Zealand.

For Australia contact the International Pension Centre by telephone, email, fax or post.

What about other benefits and entitlements?

Contact the overseas office for working age inquiries through the Department for Work and Pensions website.

What about Winter Fuel?

You can find information on Winter Fuel payments for overseas residents in the Winter Fuel section of this website.

What if I am not living in the EEA or an agreement country?If you want to find out more about state pensions for those living abroad, you can contact the International Pension Centre by phone, fax or email through The Pension Service website.

More information

If you want to find out more about coming to the UK from abroad you can read or print our leaflet Coming from abroad and social security benefits.

If you want to check which benefits you may be entitled to upon your return to the UK, you can find out more on the Department for Work and Pensions website.

Information on tax credits information about tax for non-residents and guidance on international tax issues is available from HM Revenue & Customs website.

Enquiries about National Insurance contributions for overseas customers are dealt with by HM Revenue & Customs. Find out more on HM Revenue & Customs website

Contact the International Pension Centre by phone, fax or email

http://www.pensions.gov.uk/atoz/atozdetail...ingoverseas.asp

[RDN]

...The UK pension rules are so unfair this is the one case I approve of breaking the rules - after all at 71 they might not send you to prision!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree it is unfair and I am a member of BEP - a yahoo group for British Expatriate Pensioners - whose sole aim is to get this discriminatory decision reversed. There is no logical reason for not giving the same annual increase in the old age pension to every pensioner. Excuses given about reciprocal agreements with other governments are simply lies - the only reason it is not given is that it saves the UK money and they can't be bothered to fix something that affects 400,000 people who don't live in the UK and who mostly don't vote.

If you want to stir it up at BEP, then join and try. I tried and got some good responses from some members, but then the old brigadier Smythely-Smythe types started on about "can't do that, old boy, must write to your local MP, blah, blah, crap". I'm afraid BEP is populated by too many ex-forces types who haven't got the gumption to do something radical. I suggested that all members of BEP would vote for the one party that promised to give uprated pensions to everyone, and the usual suspects started going on about "elections are not about just one issue". Meaning that Brigadier Prattish-Smythe would never vote Liberal even if the Libs promised to stop this discrimination. So I've lost hope that this group will ever succeed.

Back to your point... (and sorry about the rant - it's not so long before this will affect me personally), if they find out you have been living abroad and collecting the full pension, they will stop your pension until the "excess" has been clawed back, and then re-start at the lower rate again. And you will be on their radar forever. This has been talked about in the BEP group.

[Rinrada]

RDN ...with you 100% on this one.... ...think this could start /discuss on a new thread>>

Bit of info on the latest news on date of appeal to the House of Lords over the issue of these FROZEN pensions

(more Labour peers now in the Lords ...might change...optimistic )

Frozen pensions: 'desperate' situation

By Melanie Wright (Filed: 15/03/2004)

Hundreds of thousands of expatriate pensioners are anxiously awaiting the announcement of the date of their appeal to the House of Lords over the issue of frozen pensions.

Annette Carson: petitioned the House of Lords

Under current rules, only expatriate pensioners living in certain countries have their pensions uprated in line with inflation.

An estimated 900,000 British pensioners live abroad and fewer than half receive the increase.

Many of the pensioners who do not currently receive increases live in Commonwealth countries. These include an estimated 254,000 pensioners in Australia, 147,000 in Canada, 37,100 in New Zealand and 36,000 in South Africa.

HOW MANY LIVING IN LOS?

The House of Lords appeal relates to a case involving Annette Carson, a British expatriate living in South Africa.

Ms Carson moved to South Africa in 1989. She was told by the UK Government that she would have to continue making contributions if she wanted a full UK state pension. Ms Carson started receiving her pension on September 2000, but the Government first refused its uprating in April 2001.

She lost her case against the British Government in the High Court in March last year, and the Appeal Court upheld this ruling in June.

She then petitioned the House of Lords, who granted her leave for a further appeal to them.

An appeal date is expected soon.

When the leave to appeal was granted, Ms Carson's solicitor, Graham Chrysties, said: "The overseas pensioners are at the bottom of the pile and hopefully UK pensioners . . . would support these Britons overseas whose plight is often desperate."

Pensions of 450,000 who live abroad stay frozen

Why one should be frozen in South Africa defies sense

Australia attacks Britain over frozen pensions

18 June 2003: Is this a fair conclusion to the matter?

28 May 2002: Pension campaigner faces bankruptcy

25 March 2003: High Court begins appeal hearing over frozen overseas pensions

16 April 2002: Britons challenge 'unfair freeze on pension rises'

[Khutan]

If you live in Surin, why not Kap Choeng immigration. They are so helpful there, they suggested to me various way to apply. Areyou one of our customers? I am not sure if I know a Roger. If not pop in for a chat. You'll find us in Surin bus station.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed, sometimes quirky, but certainly helpful.

funny one was after I got the marraige certificate at the Amphour and went up to Immigration. The old guy there took my passport, and shaking it at me saying

Look Here Mr Falag..... What you need to do is......

Ok, the language was a bit odd, but he certainly got me straightened. They are very nice people at Kap Choeng, and they do try to help.

[spacebass]

Wasn't the 400,000 baht requirement 200,000 baht a couple of years ago and those who qualified for that amount at the time of the increase were allowed to continue with 200,00 baht?.

And wouldn't the original poster have qualified for the 200,00 baht at that time, and should therefore now only be liable for 200,00 baht now?

Edited June 28, 2005 by spacebass

[lopburi3]

Wasn't the 400,000 baht requirement 200,000 baht a couple of years ago and those who qualified for that amount at the time of the increase were allowed to continue with 200,00 baht?.

And wouldn't the original poster have qualified for the 200,00 baht at that time, and should therefore now only be liable for 200,00 baht now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is was 200k but now is 400k and there was no grandfather clause. All need to meet the 400k in some form or other. But he seems to be using only income which is set at 40k per month and does not meet that level so he should also have some money in a bank account to make up the yearly shortfall.

[Martin]

As lopburo3 says, it was 200,000 and is now 400,000 baht and although the possibility that a 'grandfather' clause might be included was rumoured, it didn't happen.

At the time, I was asked by the NE Expats Assoc Committee to draft a letter that we could all send to our Embassies asking for representations to be made within Diplomatic circles expressing the hope that a 'grandfather' clause would be included in the guidelines. I did that, but I doubt if any letters were sent as, by the time the Committee were able to take it to a General Meeting, it was too late to affect the matter.

But, on reflection, I think this is the time to ask for the necessary tactful diplomatic murmurings to be made on our behalf. However further discussion would be 'off topic' for this thread. So I will put up a separate one later this evening.

[Martin]

Following up on Rinrada's posting about the Annette Carson petition:

I think I read recently that it had been turned down by a 2-1 majority of the three law lords concerned.

One had written a complete denunciation of the case of the petitioner. That seemed correct in law, but not what 'the man in the street' would feel was natural justice.

I seem to remember that the dissenting law lord had said that he would have granted the petition, under (I think it was) the European Human Rights legislation. It struck me that the big player in all this, the Australian Government (who pay out millions and millions of Aus dollars each year to keep from real poverty some whose British pensions are frozen at nearly zero from the pre-big-inflation years) might well seize on that dissenting opinion and support Ms Carson in pursuing the matter to the European Court.

My memory is that backbench MPs would be likely to support all overseas pensioners getting fair treatment, but the Treasury puts the 'Whip' on to win the vote.

It really is time that the whole topic of what is the right treatment of retirees who go abroad was heated up.

All countries that have cold winters may soon be wanting the warm countries to take off their hands as many retirees as possible .

The Treasury would be horrified if there was a "No pensioner shall die of hypothermia" mood in UK.

With heating oil prices going up as they are, the UK Government would have to foot an enormous bill to ensure that. They should be enlightened into seeing that they may well soon be wanting us to go abroad, at least for the winter.

But, again, I am going wider than the original posting. So a new thread is called for.

Edited June 28, 2005 by Martin

[roiet6068]

I said I'd give an update.

Now I have it from the horses mouth: Suan Plu Immigration.

I can't have a one year visa to support my Thai wife as my pension is only about Baht 38,000/month. even though I was allowed to retire here at the end of 2001 under the old income rules.

So I have been screwed nicely.

I think I have to return to the UK now and leave my Thai wife to live on nothing in our (built by me) Surin home. My UK pension rate stopped increasing in 1987 when I came here.

I'm  71 already and have stopped working. Can anybody recommend an overdose of something? Then I can stop worrying.

Roger in Surin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As an Ozzy I also have the same problem.

It seems an a NON"B" visa is the only solution?

[lopburi3]

I said I'd give an update.

Now I have it from the horses mouth: Suan Plu Immigration.

I can't have a one year visa to support my Thai wife as my pension is only about Baht 38,000/month. even though I was allowed to retire here at the end of 2001 under the old income rules.

So I have been screwed nicely.

I think I have to return to the UK now and leave my Thai wife to live on nothing in our (built by me) Surin home. My UK pension rate stopped increasing in 1987 when I came here.

I'm  71 already and have stopped working. Can anybody recommend an overdose of something? Then I can stop worrying.

Roger in Surin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As an Ozzy I also have the same problem.

It seems an a NON"B" visa is the only solution?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you not save up 400k, or less if you have proof of income, to qualify? It seems that would be the best thing to do if possible. You do not have to have proof of income in the amount of 40k or more to qualify as you can also use a bank deposit.

[raslin]

Thetyim says: " If you go back to Uk and get an address your pension will then be updated to the current value.

Then you can emigrate again."

Does this really work? What are the details? I have a nasty feeling that I have read somewhere that you can only have the 'today's price' pension for the time that you are back in the UK, and that when you leave UK the pension drops back to the level it was when you first went to reside abroad (i.e. 1971 in raslin's case).

If somebody can quote 'chapter and verse', please do so. It is a matter that will affect a lot of Brits who would like to retire here when they reach 65.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Martin, your pension is only update while you are in the UK. Pensions have sent me a form to fill out giving my datre of arrival and return.

And yes, we are cheap. no NHS bill or other social services.