Eea Family Permit

[Melpomene]

Hello all,

Later this year we plan to apply for my wife's settlement Visa for the UK. We've been married for a number of years and have lived in the UK in the past, so we don't envisage any problems with the application (famous last words !). However, rather than going straight back to the UK, we're hoping to go and spend 6 months in France. Initially I thought the Schengen Visa would allow this, but it only permits 90 days in a 6 month period. So I've dug a bit deeper and discovered the EEA family permit - it appears the only qualification for this is that I, as an EU Citizen, am exercising my right to live within the EU and want my wife to join me. Would anyone know if taking a 6 month sabbatical in France would qualify as exercising this right? If so could we then use this permit to enter the UK rather than having to get a settlement visa ?

I'll be getting in touch with the French embassy next week, but thought I'd check in here first. ThaiVisa usually provides better advice than any embassy staff !!

Many thanks in advance for your help....

Edited July 2, 2010 by Melpomene

[7by7]

If you are exercising your treaty right to live in another EEA member country, as a job-seeker, worker, student or non working person of independent means, then your wife can apply for a family permit to join you.

Not only are the requirements for an EEA family permit less 'stringent' than that for a visa under the host nation's immigration rules, it is also free.

What is more, when you move back to the UK your wife can apply for another EEA permit instead of a UK spouse visa to accompany you. However, to do this you need to have been exercising an economic treaty right in the EEA state concerned; that is working as an employee or self-employed. I don't think living in France for a 6 month sabbatical would qualify for this. Is there some form of work or self-employment you could take up whilst there?

The downside to this is that she would have to live in the UK for 5 years to get permanent residence status instead of 24 months for ILR if she went the spouse visa route. As she would be unable to apply for naturalisation as British until she had no time restriction on her stay in the UK, she would therefore not be able to do so for 5 years, instead of the 3 years if she entered with a spouse visa and then obtained ILR.

The following are links to the UK Guidance, but EEA family permits come under EU legislation so the rules and requirements are the same for all member states.

European citizens

EEA Family Permits

Guidance - EEA and Swiss nationals (INF 18)

[Melpomene]

Excellent info - thanks. A bit more thinking required......

[erikr_]

If you are exercising your treaty right to live in another EEA member country, as a job-seeker, worker, student or non working person of independent means, then your wife can apply for a family permit to join you.

Not only are the requirements for an EEA family permit less 'stringent' than that for a visa under the host nation's immigration rules, it is also free.

What is more, when you move back to the UK your wife can apply for another EEA permit instead of a UK spouse visa to accompany you. However, to do this you need to have been exercising an economic treaty right in the EEA state concerned; that is working as an employee or self-employed. I don't think living in France for a 6 month sabbatical would qualify for this. Is there some form of work or self-employment you could take up whilst there?

The downside to this is that she would have to live in the UK for 5 years to get permanent residence status instead of 24 months for ILR if she went the spouse visa route. As she would be unable to apply for naturalisation as British until she had no time restriction on her stay in the UK, she would therefore not be able to do so for 5 years, instead of the 3 years if she entered with a spouse visa and then obtained ILR.

The following are links to the UK Guidance, but EEA family permits come under EU legislation so the rules and requirements are the same for all member states.

European citizens

EEA Family Permits

Guidance - EEA and Swiss nationals (INF 18)

Ah but the EEA family permit is only for the UK as it is a UK invention. So you should ask at the french embassy for a Schengen visa as the spouse of a european citizin with the intention of long stay. You state that you want to live in france and within 3 months you will have to apply for a carte de sejour for your wife to extend the stay (it is not a tourist visaa with the rule of only 3 out of 6 months, at this stage you will have to show you can provide for yourself (but if you go to the sous prefecture they will only make an appointment with the prefecture for 3 months later again, at which stage you would have to demonstrate that. By that time you will have gone to the UK i assume).

After 6 months you are of course free to go anywhere you want if you decide life in France is not for you

A dutchy in Paris

Edited July 8, 2010 by erikr_

[7by7]

Ah but the EEA family permit is only for the UK as it is a UK invention.

Not correct; it is applicable to and issued by all member states, although they may have a different name for it, and it is not a UK invention but the result of various EU directives which were 'tidied up' into European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC of 29 April 2004.

Completely different to a Schengen visa which is issued by a state who is a full signatory of the Schengen Agreement and allows freedom of movement within the Schengen area to anyone who holds such a visa.

One must be a dependant family member of an EEA national in order to qualify for an EEA family permit; no such restriction applies to Schengen visas.

The UK and the RoI are not full signatories of the Schengen agreement and so do not issue Schengen visas and Schengen visas are not valid in either country.

[the scouser]

To an extent, I both agree and disagree with the two of you.

As an EEA citizen, and their accompanying family members, can choose to exercise "treaty rights" at any point, how the parties enter a given EEA state, and with what type of "visa", is redundant. Ultimately, neither a Schengen visa nor a family permit is required.

Article 5(4) of the 2004/38 Directive states:-

Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

That said, how, for example, the French authorities interpret the Directive, I just don't know. But if they require EEA citizens and their family members to apply for "long term" visas as a prerequisite to being able to assert European "rights", I would wager that it is in contravention of the Directive.

Scouse.

[7by7]

Scouse, I see what you are saying about article 5(4), but my opinion is that for the majority of people the easiest way of proving they are covered by the directive is to obtain a family permit before traveling. It is, or should be, easy to obtain and free.

Also, a question if I may.

The OP's ultimate aim is to settle with his family in the UK. The Surinder Singh judgment means that if he has been exercising his economic treaty rights to live and work in another EEA state (in this case France) and his wife has been living there with him then when they move to the UK his wife would qualify for entry to the UK under the 2004/38 directive.

This obvioulsy applies if she entered France with a family permit, but does it also apply if she entered with a Schengen visa, or would entering with a Schengen visa mean she would have to apply (and pay) for a UK settlement visa as his spouse when the time came?

In other words, to qualify for UK entry under Surinder Singh, does how she entered the EEA state not matter (presumably as long as it was legally), as long as her EEA national husband has been exercising his economic treaty rights there?

[erikr_]

Scouse, I see what you are saying about article 5(4), but my opinion is that for the majority of people the easiest way of proving they are covered by the directive is to obtain a family permit before traveling. It is, or should be, easy to obtain and free.

Also, a question if I may.

The OP's ultimate aim is to settle with his family in the UK. The Surinder Singh judgment means that if he has been exercising his economic treaty rights to live and work in another EEA state (in this case France) and his wife has been living there with him then when they move to the UK his wife would qualify for entry to the UK under the 2004/38 directive.

This obvioulsy applies if she entered France with a family permit, but does it also apply if she entered with a Schengen visa, or would entering with a Schengen visa mean she would have to apply (and pay) for a UK settlement visa as his spouse when the time came?

In other words, to qualify for UK entry under Surinder Singh, does how she entered the EEA state not matter (presumably as long as it was legally), as long as her EEA national husband has been exercising his economic treaty rights there?

Guys believe me the french do not have an EEA family permit, but feel free to ask for one if you want to be stubborn. I have my Thai wife here with me in Paris!

To ask for is a schengen visa (and then request a carte de sejour for your wife at the prefecture), which will be free based on he directive, and the required information is minimal (so yes it is almost as simle as the EEA family permit for the UK)

And for those that are stubborn:(from the french embassy in London)

Family members of an European Union citizen (excepting French national)

Married spouses and children under the age of 21 or dependant of EU nationals are exempted from obtaining a Schengen visa to travel to France if they hold:

- a valid passport;

- a valid UK residence permit - issued by the Home Office - with the endorsement "family member of EEA national" (art 10 of the European council/parliament directive 2004/38 ce);

- and if they are joining or travelling with the EU national.

However if they do not satisfy the above conditions, they need to apply for a visa to travel to France (for instance if their UK residency does not state those exact words/ the EU National is not going to France with them).

Caution:

- This exemption does not apply to parents or unmarried/ civil partners;

- Family members of French Nationals are not included in this legislation and still require visas to travel to France.

- If you do not satisfy the set conditions, see below to apply:

You may either book an appointment :

Or you may be eligible to apply via the postal department

Be advised that if you are unable to provide the requested documents to obtain a visa as the spouse of an EU citizen, you will need to lodge an application for a short stay Schengen visa, i.e. pay the visa administrative fees and produce all requested supporting documents.

- Original documents requested and photocopies:

Caution : failing to produce the supporting documents and/or their copies will most probably lead to the visa being refused.

- The French Consulate insists on photocopies of the documents, including both passports, to be included with the application.

Please print this questionnaire, complete it and join it to your visa application.

>>> As the Spouse of an European Union Citizen:

1. A national passport or official travel document valid for more than 3 months beyond the validity of the requested visa, with at least 2 blank visa pages.

A copy of your passport (data pages) and of your resident permit are required and must be joigned to the file. Failing to do so will present a high risk of refusal.

2. One application form duly completed and signed by the applicant (or the legal guardian for applicants under the age of 18).

3. 2 photographs. Please read photo guidance document

4. Nationals who must expect a delay for the processing of their applications delay?

- Either a self-addressed pre-paid special delivery envelope for the return of your passport - highly recommended as it is quicker,

- or a 1st class stamped self-addressed envelope to be informed of your second appointment.

5. Your spouse’s European Union passport.

6. Your original civil Marriage Certificate with official translation if not in French or English. This official translation must be certified as a true copy by the Embassy/ Consulate of the country where your marriage was celebrated.

7. If your Marriage Certificate has been issued outside the European Union, it must be stamped by the Foreign Office of the issuing country, or its Embassy in the UK.

>>> As the Dependent Child (under the age of 21) of an European Union Citizen:

1. A full national passport or official travel document valid for more than 3 months beyond the validity of the requested visa, with a blank visa page to affix the visa sticker. Your British residency must be stamped onto the passport.

2. One application form duly completed and signed by the applicant (or the legal guardian for children under the age of 18).

3. 2 photographs. Please read photo guidance document

4. Nationals who must expect a delay for the processing of their applications delay?

- Either a self-addressed pre-paid special delivery envelope for the return of your passport - highly recommended as it is quicker,

- or a 1st class stamped self-addressed envelope to be informed of your second appointment.

5. The parent’s European Union valid passport.

6. The child’s original full Birth Certificate (stating both parents’ names) with official translation if not in French or English. This official translation must be certified as a true copy by your Embassy/ Consulate or by the legalisation bureau of the Foreign Office in GB.

7. If the child, under the age of 18, is travelling to France without his parents or with one parent, a parental authorisation to travel is requested. This letter should be completed and signed by both parents or legal guardian, clearly allowing the child to travel to France and appointing the person who will be responsible for him. This letter should be duly authenticated by a solicitor or Commissioner for Oaths, or by a Consular Officer of the applicants’ nationality. Both parents’ valid passports should be enclosed with the application, or a certified photocopy if the parents are residing abroad.

>>> As the Dependent Child (over the age of 21) of an European Union Citizen:

1. A full national passport or official travel document valid for more than 3 months beyond the validity of the requested visa, with a blank visa page to affix the visa sticker. Your British residency must be stamped onto the passport.

2. One application form duly completed and signed by the applicant (or the legal guardian for children under the age of 18).

3. 2 photographs. Please read photo guidance document

4. Nationals who must expect a delay for the processing of their applications delay?

- Either a self-addressed pre-paid special delivery envelope for the return of your passport - highly recommended as it is quicker,

- or a 1st class stamped self-addressed envelope to be informed of your second appointment.

5. The parent’s European Union valid passport.

6. The child’s original full Birth Certificate (stating both parents’ names) with official translation if not in French or English. This official translation must be certified as a true copy by your Embassy/ Consulate or by the legalisation bureau of the Foreign Office in GB.

7. A sworn statement from your parent stating that you are his/ her dependant or a document to that effect from your Embassy.

>>> As an Adopted Child:

The French Consulate is unable to issue a visa to children whose adoption has not been completed in the UK.

>>> As the Dependent Parent of a European Union Citizen:

1. A national passport or official travel document valid for more than 3 months beyond the validity of the requested visa, with a visa blank page to affix the visa sticker. Your British residency must be stamped onto the passport.

2. One application form duly completed and signed by the applicant .

3. 2 photographs. Please read photo guidance document

4. Nationals who must expect a delay for the processing of their applications delay?

- Either a self-addressed pre-paid special delivery envelope for the return of your passport - highly recommended as it is quicker,

- or a 1st class stamped self-addressed envelope to be informed of your second appointment.

5. The child’s valid European passport.

6. Document from the competent registry office proving your relation ship (ie birth certifcate or court declaration).

7. A sworn statement from your child stating that you are his/ her dependant or a document to that effect from your Embassy.

8. Travel insurance including medical cover and repatriation. It must cover the duration of the requested visa.

9. Discharge form duly completed and signed by the applicant

>>> Should you wish to settle in France: Family members of EU nationals must lodge an application for a short stay Schengen visa then contact the prefecture to finalise the formalities.

Ensure that all documents requested are provided.

If deemed necessary, additional documents may be requested.

Incomplete applications will not be dealt with: applicants will need to book another appointment to provide the lacking documents.

[7by7]

I do not doubt that your wife is with you in Paris.

I do not doubt that she entered France with a Schengen visa. (There was no need for that massive copy and paste job, a simple link would have sufficed!)

But a Schengen visa is not the same as the free movement of EEA nationals and their non EEA national family members as guaranteed by the directive.; even though the end result may be the same.

Friends of ours, (he British, she Thai) lived in The Netherlands for three years; they did not obtain a Schengen visa but the Dutch equivalent of a family permit.

Acquaintances of ours (again, he British and she Thai) live in Alsace. When moving to Alsace she obtained not a Schengen visa, but a family permit. Last time I looked, Alsace was in France.

It seems that neither of us is wrong; we are both right. As a family permit is free and as a Schengen visa is free to family members of an EU national, the point is too small to argue over.

The important question, though, is whether using a Schengen visa to enter France, or any other EEA state, rather than a family permit under the directive would then mean the person qualified under the Surinder Singh judgment for a family permit on moving from there to the UK, or would they have to apply for settlement under the UK immigration rules?

[seaneee]

The OP's ultimate aim is to settle with his family in the UK. The Surinder Singh judgment means that if he has been exercising his economic treaty rights to live and work in another EEA state (in this case France) and his wife has been living there with him then when they move to the UK his wife would qualify for entry to the UK under the 2004/38 directive.

Is there a minimum time the eea national and his wife would have to be exercising this right before applying to move back to the UK?

[7by7]

No.

[erikr_]

I do not doubt that your wife is with you in Paris.

I do not doubt that she entered France with a Schengen visa. (There was no need for that massive copy and paste job, a simple link would have sufficed!)

But a Schengen visa is not the same as the free movement of EEA nationals and their non EEA national family members as guaranteed by the directive.; even though the end result may be the same.

Friends of ours, (he British, she Thai) lived in The Netherlands for three years; they did not obtain a Schengen visa but the Dutch equivalent of a family permit.

Acquaintances of ours (again, he British and she Thai) live in Alsace. When moving to Alsace she obtained not a Schengen visa, but a family permit. Last time I looked, Alsace was in France.

It seems that neither of us is wrong; we are both right. As a family permit is free and as a Schengen visa is free to family members of an EU national, the point is too small to argue over.

The important question, though, is whether using a Schengen visa to enter France, or any other EEA state, rather than a family permit under the directive would then mean the person qualified under the Surinder Singh judgment for a family permit on moving from there to the UK, or would they have to apply for settlement under the UK immigration rules?

The point is you are giving incorrect information. And again I would say: try to apply at the french embassy in Bangkok for an EEA family Permit and you find the equivalent being a free schengen visa with limited evidence to be produced.

When it comes to the Surinder Singh judgement, you raise an interesting question as the OP is not going to work in France there is indeed a questionable issue of exercising treaty rights. I think it is one of those exception cases we can't predict untill executed

[7by7]

As I'm sure that you know, an EEA family permit is also free and requires limited evidence.

The problem I'm having with the idea of a Schengen visa rather than a family permit, or the French equivalent, is that as I understand it a Schengen visa is valid for all the Schengen states. Whereas a permit issued under the 2004/38 directive is, as I understand it, only valid for the state that issued it; so that if one wished to move to another state one would need to obtain a further permit issued by that state.

I stand to be corrected on this, but with respect to yourself would only really be happy if such correction came from someone such as Scouse, who understands these matters far more than you or I.

However, whatever it is called, the end result is the same and if the OP presents himself and wife at the French embassy saying that he wishes to exercise his treaty rights to live in France I'm sure that they will issue her with the appropriate entry clearance.

[erikr_]

As I'm sure that you know, an EEA family permit is also free and requires limited evidence.

The problem I'm having with the idea of a Schengen visa rather than a family permit, or the French equivalent, is that as I understand it a Schengen visa is valid for all the Schengen states. Whereas a permit issued under the 2004/38 directive is, as I understand it, only valid for the state that issued it; so that if one wished to move to another state one would need to obtain a further permit issued by that state.

I stand to be corrected on this, but with respect to yourself would only really be happy if such correction came from someone such as Scouse, who understands these matters far more than you or I.

However, whatever it is called, the end result is the same and if the OP presents himself and wife at the French embassy saying that he wishes to exercise his treaty rights to live in France I'm sure that they will issue her with the appropriate entry clearance.

It is indeed a schengen visa that allows travel to all countries (due to the open borders probably why a system as the family permit would not work) and if you intend to stay you have to go to the prefecture within 3 months for a carte de sejour (equivilant to the UK residence card) as they will only give you a schengen visa for 3 months. The biggest difference is that the UK residence card is for 5 years where the carte de sejour can be for 10 years if you are lucky or 1 year if not. We are in the process which is almost as slow as the one in the UK (which can take 6 months)

Edited July 12, 2010 by erikr_

[7by7]

The reason that the UK residence card (which is not compulsory) is only valid for 5 years is because under the directive one can apply for permanent residence after 5 years. As this is part of an EU directive it must be the same in France.

If entering France with a Schengen visa means that permanent residence is not available after 5 years then this shows that doing so is not the same as entering the UK with an EEA family permit and a Schengen visa is not issued under the terms of the directive and so is not the French equivalent of same.

[7by7]

Erikr, it seems I owe you an apology.

Having some spare time, I have checked the French embassy website and it seems does indeed say on this page

Family members of EU nationals must lodge an application for a short stay Schengen visa then contact the prefecture to finalise the formalities, should they wish to settle in France.

It seems that France has changed it's procedure since I last looked, which admittedly is some time ago. Moral: keep up to date!

How that fits in with the letter, let alone the spirit, of the directive i fail to see, especially looking at the conditions for obtaining the Schengen visa that you listed earlier; i.e. the UK residence permit stating that they are the family member of an EU national. This is not a condition of the directive, any document showing that they are such is sufficient.

One assumes that if applying from outside the EU, e.g. Thailand, such a residence permit would not be required, but the website of the French embassy in Bangkok is in French or Thai, and I can't read either of those languages.

But as Scouse said earlier, article 5(4) of the directive states that persons seeking entry to an EEA state under this directive cannot be refused entry if they have evidence that they meet the requirements and this evidence does not have to be a form of pre-approved entry clearance. If the French are insisting that everyone in this category must first obtain a Schengen visa then I agree with Scouse; I think the French are breaking EU law (as the UK would be if they insisted people had an EEA family permit; which as far as I know they don't).

I'm also doubtful as to the legality of making one apply at the prefecture if one wishes to stay beyond three months; but I'm not a legal expert by any means, let alone one in EU law!

[erikr_]

As the procedure is straight forward and free, i do not think it is against EU regulation, the UK in practice does require an EEA Family Permit and no airline will bring you to the UK without. When it comes to the visit to the prefecture for the carte de sejour, de uk asks of us to apply for a residence card if we intend to stay longer then the duration of the EEA family permit (so again similar).

I agree that the UK in the letter will allow you in with the marriage papers and identification, I know the Netherlands does and most likely france the same if you make it come to that. I know that if you have a UK residence card as spouse of EEA national you do not need a visa for France.

Applying in Bangkok is the same as applying in London (same rules if married to non french), my wife was in Thailand till march before she came and rejoined me in France.

Hope this discussion helps uk people that are looking to go to France with their thai partner.

Funnily enough I went through both hoops as we used to live in the UK and are now living in France

[7by7]

Applying in Bangkok is the same as applying in London (same rules if married to non french), my wife was in Thailand till march before she came and rejoined me in France.

Indeed, but what worries me is that in order to obtain a Schengen visa as the spouse/family member of an EEA national the London embassy says, as you previously quoted, that the applicant must have a valid UK residence permit - issued by the Home Office - with the endorsement "family member of EEA national."

Obviously, someone applying in Bangkok to live in France with their British spouse, such as the OP, will not have such a resident permit, unless like yourselves they have previously lived in the UK.

So,do you know what they will accept if applying in Bangkok?

[erikr_]

Applying in Bangkok is the same as applying in London (same rules if married to non french), my wife was in Thailand till march before she came and rejoined me in France.

Indeed, but what worries me is that in order to obtain a Schengen visa as the spouse/family member of an EEA national the London embassy says, as you previously quoted, that the applicant must have a valid UK residence permit - issued by the Home Office - with the endorsement "family member of EEA national."

Obviously, someone applying in Bangkok to live in France with their British spouse, such as the OP, will not have such a resident permit, unless like yourselves they have previously lived in the UK.

So,do you know what they will accept if applying in Bangkok?

I think the length of the quote is cmplicating things for you which results in mixing up 3 options:

If you apply in London as Thai for a schengen visa you need to show residence,

if you have a UK residence permit with the endorsement "family member of EEA national then no schengen visa is needed and you will have direct entrance to France.

To apply for the Schengen visa in Bangkok you would have to be resident in Thailand.

So in case of the OP his wife would need to apply for a Schengen visa at the French embassy in Bangkok. Work a bit in France (to ensure he can claim having exercised his treaty rights, not sure if only living there would be enough but Scouse should be able to confirm that) and then apply in France for the UK entrance under surinder singh judgement.

[7by7]

Thanks, so to make sure I have at last got it right:-

She applies in Bangkok showing that she is a Thai resident and that she is married to a non-French EEA national who is either already in France or will be accompanying her.

Once in France she would then have three months to obtain a residence card from the local prefecture.

Correct?

To qualify for entry to the UK under the directive her husband, the OP, must first have been exercising his treaty rights to work in another EEA state, employed or self-employed. Just living there from their own resources would not be enough.

Interestingly, the UK entry clearance guidance says

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State was to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/ she could come back to the UK with his/ her family members under EC law.

I'd want confirmation from someone such as Scouse, but it seems to me from this that they could go to France, he gets a small job for a couple of weeks and she can then obtain a family permit to live in the UK.

[erikr_]

Thanks, so to make sure I have at last got it right:-

She applies in Bangkok showing that she is a Thai resident and that she is married to a non-French EEA national who is either already in France or will be accompanying her.

Once in France she would then have three months to obtain a residence card from the local prefecture.

Correct?

correct, as long as she applies for the residence carte (carte de sejour) she is in line with the french rules.

Actually it was called the belgian route in the Netherlands (dutch people who wanted to prevent the difficult visa rules just moved to Belgium for a while)