Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

[thaiman]

Sex should be free, and not paid.

Who says you have to pay for it? A lot of sex is free. You just got to know how to get it for free!

[GuestHouse]

Why? I have an idea but that would be better left to history or good literature to decide.

Neither of which you have given us.

And I'll ignore your attempts to make the discussion personal, if you don't mind.

Correction, the quote was of course, mark45y, UG only hugged it.

Edited July 22, 2010 by GuestHouse

[Fookhaht]

A little history for Guesthouse. Because I don't think you will read the short story I recommended.

First came the seamen (no pun intended). Then came the planters. The South Pacific has a lot in common with Thailand in that all the islanders had lots to eat. Plenty of fruit, vegetables and fish. Shelter wasn't much of a problem because it was warm all year long. What did the people do? They partied. The women didn't wear much clothing like Thailand 500 years ago. They were topless and happy. They partied hard. The women danced sexy dances and the men danced manly dances and every body got horny and had sex. Unwed mothers and children out of wedlock was not a problem because there was enough to eat. The villages took care of the children like they were their own. Everybody was happy.

The planters added an extra dimension to the scene as they needed labor and gave the natives jobs. So in addition to the free food and shelter the natives had money. Everybody was still happy. Occasionally seamen still docked at the islands and they gave the natives money too. Sometimes for food and sometimes for sex. Everybody was still happy.

Then the missionaries came. The missionaries were not happy. They saw the people without guilt. They were having too much fun. They were partying naked and having sex with just about anyone. Age didn't make much difference. If a woman could have a baby she did and that was that.

The missionaries were people like Guesthouse. They found all this happiness and sex too much to handle. They searched for reasons to stop all of the happiness. First they put clothes on the natives and next they stopped the parties and rampant sexuality. They natives told they to go fly a kite but the missionaries had an ace in the hole. The planters. If the missionaries told all the people back home in America about the naked natives and free (or almost free) sex the planters would be in deep do do. So the planters didn't give jobs and money to any natives who staid naked and screwed everyone....

Yes, yes, we've all read the historically-flawed book Hawaii, by James Michener (or seen the movie) with its skewed anti-religious bigotry. Basically the same story. Your biased view of missionaries' effect on primitive societies sets a poor foundation for the rest of your argument. I would suggest studying the history of Chiang Mai and all the benefits brought to that region by missionaries of the 19th century, strongly supported by Thailand's king at that time. A trip to the national museum there would perhaps give you a fresh and less-biased perspective.

[Ulysses G.]

Why? I have an idea but that would be better left to history or good literature to decide.

Neither of which you have given us.

And I'll ignore your attempts to make the discussion personal, if you don't mind.

Correction, the quote was of course, mark45y, UG only hugged it.

I strongly agree with the post, but am not sure about that sentence as he did not tell us what the idea is.

[GuestHouse]

GuestHouse: What is it that you want? Do you have a goal? What is it exactly that you are trying to convince us?

All:

While reading all the posts in this (so far) 26-page thread, I received a call from Deum. Characterstics: University grad, works for a Japanese-owned trading company in Bangkok. Lives with mom and three sisters in a BKK suburb. Drives a Carryboy.

I like Deum. I enjoyed doing a couple of things with her and her family a couple of years ago. (She was always well escorted...)

I have not heard from her since I last saw her in January 2008, I think it was. But tonight I get the call out of the blue. "Yes. I've been really busy. I quit my job. I've opened a small shop. I've got x number of workers. Two of them quit, but that's okay. I'll hire more if we get busy. You can send me an e-mail."

In Pattaya, on the other hand, there are several ladies eager to be my friend. They have agreed in advance to spend time with me. After we spend our time together, that will be it. They will not contact me, and I will not contact them. I will once again leave town with only the memories.

So, there is Deum, the civilian, and all the possibilities that she entails. Then there is the corps of Pattaya ladies and all the possibilities that they entail.

Here's the riddle: Who represents a greater danger to me? Is it Deum, the university graduate, small business owner, good girl? Or, is it the Pattaya ladies, the working girls, scorned by several on this forum with labels such as "whore" and "prostitute"?

GuestHouse: What say you, sir, with your obviously superior-to-the-rest-of-us-here intellect? I'm in a quandary.

1. I'm not sure if you've noticed but this is a 'Forum' - it is were people discuss things, express opinions, some times argue, sometimes agree. It is not necessary to 'want something' in order to participate, and I do not, nor am I trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. I'm expressing my opinions, just like other people are expressing their opinions - Ask yourself why you question my motives and not those of others in this discussion.

2. Do you feel women are a danger to you? Have you considered talking to someone about that?

3. I've noted the use of the terms 'Whore' and 'Prostitute' - The former, I think most would agree, is pejorative and oddly in this thread almost exclusively used by those arguing in favor of prostitution/using prostitutes. The term Prostitute is correct and does not carry the additional negative connotations of whore.

4. If you suffer feelings of inferior intellect, please do not try to pin them on me.

Edited July 22, 2010 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

Why? I have an idea but that would be better left to history or good literature to decide.

Neither of which you have given us.

And I'll ignore your attempts to make the discussion personal, if you don't mind.

Correction, the quote was of course, mark45y, UG only hugged it.

I strongly agree with the post, but am not sure about that sentence as he did not tell us what the idea is.

Of course you do, it's pure fiction, written to support the position Mark45y already holds and you agree with.

Contrast that with reports from NGOs and academic research which contradicts what you believe. Or indeed, extracts from press reports which provide records of abuse (sorry they're referred to as myths in this thread)

[Ulysses G.]

Academic research does not contrast with what I believe. In fact, it proves that there are few incidences of abuse in the Thai sex industry that caters to farangs. Read the book "Sex Slaves" or "Patpong Sisters" so that you have some idea of what you are talking about.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[JurgenG]

I don't really know how to write the question but do people who support prostitution would consider as normal/acceptable that their 18 yo daughter has paid sexual relation with their friends/neighbors, the same way as she can do some babysetting, in order to pay for her studies, her holidays or a new handbag?

Or maybe to have paid sexual relation with their friends/neighbour's daughter for the same reason ?

[GuestHouse]

Academic research does not contrast with what I believe. In fact, it proves that there are few incidences of abuse in the Thai sex industry that caters to farangs. Read the book "Sex Slaves" or "Patpong Sisters" so that you have some idea of what you are talking about.

Thanks for the suggestion.

While you were editing to add 'Patpong Sisters' I plugged 'Sex Slaves' into Amazon, I recognize the cover and will look out of a copy over the weekend.

The Amazon synopsis suggests that I might not be the only one who you perhaps should consider recommending it to.

From Amazon - Referring to 'Sex Slaves'. Here are the voices of some of the world’s most silent and abused women—women who have been forced into prostitution by the men they trust. This is their story, including the journey from home to captivity, the horrors of "seasoning" for prostitution, and the hidden life within the brothel.

[Ulysses G.]

It mostly concentrates on India where conditions are horrific and almost no Western customers.

[Shotime]

"So, having paid my partner for sex when, if ever, does she stop being a whore ?"

In some cases, unfortunately, never. Can you hear her brain go cha-ching every time you hit it?

Everybody has to eat and have a roof over their head. Being of a whore mind-set goes beyond just money. It's more an attitude that they expect something for being with you. That's other than just caring and looking out for both your best intyerests. Otherwise, as they say on Maury's, she's a ho.

"I take care of her (as I would a Western partner). She doesn't ask for things - I guess she is now cured ?"

Youre quite welcome.

It helps if she's above 35, but many variables come into play. Generally, you can feel it in your gut. Does she take care of you? I don't mean sexually. Does she look out for you? I like to look at it as learned not cured.

I'm all for free sex, and I still don't understand all the other discussion/rationalizations. Abuse is on the part of the abuser. There are some sick fuc_ks out there, and there will always be an open market to accomadate them. I don;'t think that's what we're talking about here.

[mark45y]

Why? I have an idea but that would be better left to history or good literature to decide.

Neither of which you have given us.

And I'll ignore your attempts to make the discussion personal, if you don't mind.

Correction, the quote was of course, mark45y, UG only hugged it.

I strongly agree with the post, but am not sure about that sentence as he did not tell us what the idea is.

Of course you do, it's pure fiction, written to support the position Mark45y already holds and you agree with.

Contrast that with reports from NGOs and academic research which contradicts what you believe. Or indeed, extracts from press reports which provide records of abuse (sorry they're referred to as myths in this thread)

I am an authority on prostitutes. I have lived in a number of brothels starting at the age of 16.

I got kicked out of college for hiring prostitutes as waitresses in my fraternity house. I got back in the next term.

I ran hookers in the army in 1968. We called them Korean all girl bands. They could also sing, dance and kinda play instruments.

I ran bars in major cities all over the world. There is not much difference between a bar girl and a cocktail waitress and that’s a fact.

You don’t know poop from wild honey about whores.

You aren’t ever going to learn because of your moral leanings.

All your information is from out of date books, PC, profit oriented NGO’s and old stories fronted by NGO’s. It is worthless.

I’d try and have a discussion but our knowledge levels are too different. I fear it is impossible. It has been fun but I fear non productive.

I told you about the history of Thailand and how things got to be as they are but you ignore it.

I asked you a simple question about supporting Thailand when Thailand is so firmly in the corner of organized prostitution. You ignore it.

Talking to a person who has no personal feel for the pay for play business is like dancing about architecture.

You want abuse? Fine. Start with the bishops in Ireland, America and Germany. There is plenty of abuse there and it is well documented with up to date information by credible news sources not some sleazy NGO who exists on contributions from farm women in Iowa.

You want well documented abuse try the clergy and leave the poor hardworking ladies of Thailand alone.

[cardholder]

If I had never eaten cake I would not be qualified to comment on whether cake was arroy/mai arroy.

[Shotime]

If I had never eaten cake I would not be qualified to comment on whether cake was arroy/mai arroy.

"Let them eat cake."

[GuestHouse]

I am an authority on prostitutes. I have lived in a number of brothels starting at the age of 16.

I got kicked out of college for hiring prostitutes as waitresses in my fraternity house. I got back in the next term.

I ran hookers in the army in 1968. We called them Korean all girl bands. They could also sing, dance and kinda play instruments.

I ran bars in major cities all over the world. There is not much difference between a bar girl and a cocktail waitress and that’s a fact.

You don’t know poop from wild honey about whores.

You aren’t ever going to learn because of your moral leanings.

All your information is from out of date books, PC, profit oriented NGO’s and old stories fronted by NGO’s. It is worthless.

I’d try and have a discussion but our knowledge levels are too different. I fear it is impossible. It has been fun but I fear non productive.

I told you about the history of Thailand and how things got to be as they are but you ignore it.

I asked you a simple question about supporting Thailand when Thailand is so firmly in the corner of organized prostitution. You ignore it.

Talking to a person who has no personal feel for the pay for play business is like dancing about architecture.

You want abuse? Fine. Start with the bishops in Ireland, America and Germany. There is plenty of abuse there and it is well documented with up to date information by credible news sources not some sleazy NGO who exists on contributions from farm women in Iowa.

You want well documented abuse try the clergy and leave the poor hardworking ladies of Thailand alone.

Odd then that you need to resort to a made up story and attempts, yet again, to turn the discussion to personal attacks.

Even odder that your categorical statement regarding 'Myth' was so easily demonstrated to be wrong.

And yes there is abuse elsewhere, but that would be a different thread, assuming it is Thailand related - or are you arguing that if we can find worse cases of abuse elsewhere then we need not concern ourselves with the abuse here?

May I remind you. This is a discussion on Prostitution in Thailand.

You have your opinion and I have mine.

I don't feel the need to resort to personal attacks in order to express my opinion and since I see them for what they are, I can very easily let them ride.

Regarding your stated life long engagement with prostitution, I'd only be surprised if you held a different view from that which you express here.

Clearly you will regard any criticism of using prostitutes, prostitution or promoting prostitution as an attack on something you've by your own admission invested a lot of your life in.

But that's the point of the thread, to ask if this is wrong or not.

Perhaps you'd prefer if everyone only agreed with your point of view.

Well sorry, I do not.

[GuestHouse]

I ran hookers in the army in 1968.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, that would be 'Pimping' right?

We non of us ought to be surprised that someone who 'Pimps' or has pimped prostitutes is going to argue that it's not wrong to pay for sex.

You aren’t ever going to learn because of your moral leanings.

I've not discussed morals, and I increasingly feel I need not do so.

[GreenSnapper]

these kind of girls are usually abused at some point in their lives and they have psychological short comings.

Abused? Maybe we should give up free sex too?

"abuse" is the most abused word in modern Western culture....

[GreenSnapper]

Contrast that with reports from NGOs and academic research which contradicts what you believe. Or indeed, extracts from press reports which provide records of abuse (sorry they're referred to as myths in this thread)

NGOs are probably the greatest pest for 3rd world countries since most missionaries have gone. And show me one which is not dominated by radical feminists.

"Academic research" about the subject discussed here comes mainly from 'gender studies' and is equally highly ideologic cr@p.

[GuestHouse]

NGOs are probably the greatest pest for 3rd world countries since most missionaries have gone. And show me one which is not dominated by radical feminists.

Here's one for you.

[sokal]

re Mr Forbes novel an UGs reply to my comment.

I have no problems with the notion of a commercial transaction for sex between consenting adults.

All i see here is a man who made some stupid choices trying to equate his ex with a whore. strangely, i thought that with a prostitute you met, came to an agreement, had sex and then parted ways.

Despite some of the potentially expensive consequences of a failed marriage i don't see the parallel, nor do i see the point in trying to draw it unless you are trying to justify paid sex as equivalent to an actual relationship.

This discussion is fraught with folks who can't seem to make the distinction.

An actual relationship is just as much about sex and money as prostitution. In prostitution you are paying for sex, in marriage you are paying for free sex. No difference.

I know allot of men that have lost half their net worth plus half their future earnings paying for free sex.

Try finding a guy that will stay in a relationship with a woman that NEVER puts out. It just doesnt happen.

how can you not see the parallel ?

i cannot see the parallel because the parallel does not exist, and i think your endless insistence that it does belies a much deeper pathology.

you seem unable to comprehend that women are capable of sex for sex sake and that a man may actually enter into an intimate emotional relationship in which sex is a byproduct of that intimacy.

By the same token, am man and a woman can engage in a commercial transaction whereby one receives money and the other is able to indulge a fantasy, a biological imperative or both.

the need you have to tar all relationships with the same brush speaks more of your own shortcomings than those of the women around you.

I never once said that women don't enjoy sex or not want sex for sex sake, of course they do. The problem is that they can get all the sex they want so there is no need for them to put out without getting something more then just the sex.

[kpmsprtd]

One more Donate Now button? I've seen plenty already, thank you very much. One thing that the NGOs and private "charity" organizations such as The Grey Man should do is to publish more varied stories. As it is, the stories suffer from being far too formulaic. This is a weakness they share with the Chicken Soup for the Soul stories. After the first line, we can guess not only the ending, but also fill in most of the details.

Let me offer my services to write some better sex slave stories for use by NGOs and private "charity" organizations. It's a simple formula:

• x number of girls
• x number of years old (lower number is better)
• x location (somewhere where most people typically don't go. This is to prevent fact-checking.)
• x kinds of torture (the more gruesome the better)
• x number of clients per day (higher is better)
• clients should include those from wealthy countries (i.e. those whose countrymen can afford to donate to "charity" organizations)
• direct quotations from the child sex slaves themselves

I work cheap. For each six-pack of beer I will provide six stories, and I'll localize for publication in various countries. (American clients for the American media market, British clients for the British media market, etc.) I would request literary license to add a "happily ever after due to your generous contributions ending" to each story. It's one thing missing from the current formula that I feel can greatly increase the amount of donations and government grants.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer: I am sure that around the world there are pockets of evil where some women are being kept as sex slaves. We have seen it in Austria, Belgium, and America within the last decade. For the record, I state my total sympathy for these poor victims and my total opposition to the perpetrators of this torture in the rare instances it occurs.

[sokal]

You forgot about fat girls. Fat girls have a lot more sex than skinny girls. I don't know why. It is why a lot of guys like fat girls. I have always found ladies buying books like fat but fit are great fun and a pleasure to be with. People write off fat girls too quickly. It is really the person that counts not the pounds.

Fat girls simply need to put out more to get the same attention as a hot slim girl. Guys like fat girls because they put out more. They have less leverage.

How many rich men or celebrities have fat partners ?

[t.s]

GH: Would you prefer that those single mothers have no recourse to income?

You claim to be making no moral judgment, yet you post prolifically against paying for sex in a topic that specifically calls for one. I would have thought that calling something a "sad mess" was by definition passing a judgement.

You cite examples of human trafficking as if it were one and the same thing as prostitution.

Edited July 23, 2010 by t.s

[sokal]

Sex should be free, and not paid.

Who says you have to pay for it? A lot of sex is free. You just got to know how to get it for free!

You seem to be one of those guys that takes a girl to a restaurant and to the movies just to get into her pants. Movies and restaurants are not free, they are the cost of sex.

[MB1]

Sex should be free, and not paid.

Who says you have to pay for it? A lot of sex is free. You just got to know how to get it for free!

You seem to be one of those guys that takes a girl to a restaurant and to the movies just to get into her pants. Movies and restaurants are not free, they are the cost of sex.

Never heard of going "Dutch", let me explain, the term can be used when a woman and a man share the costs, or do no women share costs...In your world....

[mark45y]

I ran hookers in the army in 1968.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, that would be 'Pimping' right?

We non of us ought to be surprised that someone who 'Pimps' or has pimped prostitutes is going to argue that it's not wrong to pay for sex.

You aren’t ever going to learn because of your moral leanings.

I've not discussed morals, and I increasingly feel I need not do so.

It is not personal. I find it interesting that you don’t buy sex in Thailand but I don’t care if you don’t buy sex or not. I have been in the hotel, restaurant, bar and entertainment business all my life. I provide people what they want and in return for that I get money. In college my fraternity brothers wanted waitresses who served food and after dinner put on a bit of a show. OK no sweat off my back. Easy to find. In the army GI’s wanted a show after a hard day of shooting small brown people. OK again no problem. I have helped open a number of establishments in Thailand that had entertainment. I know where to find the women who want to work. I’ve been doing this all my life again no problem.

I don’t own and operate a venue in Thailand because it is dangerous. I don’t care for danger at this stage in my life.

My point is I am familiar with prostitution both in this country and many others. There is no evidence of wide scale abuse of women in the Thai bar business. If there was there would be news articles frequently in the same way that abuse has been recently documented about the clergy in other countries.

The only people pushing the abuse myth in Thailand are NGO’s and they are pushing the myth because of profit.

I read your links and they aren’t credible or current. You yourself have nothing to add because you don’t know anything about prostitutes. That is a personal statement on your part. You will not investigate abuse because you don’t hang around places where it could take place. That is personal.

Sex sells newspapers and occasionally a journalist comes to Thailand and writes a story about abuse but they never have any facts or actual experience to back up the claims.

The only thing you or they are accomplishing is hurting the ladies who are working in the business.

The campaign against prostitution is not a recent invention. It has been going on for as long as there is recorded history.

There are countless stories of ministers both old and new who rant against sin and later are caught with hookers. This trend is so prevalent that it has become a cliché.

What makes the story interesting in Thailand is the line drawn between good and bad girls here is so fine to almost be nonexistent. It extends through all levels of society even to those who are unmentionable.

For you the line seems clear and black and white but for most Thai’s or people who have become acclimated to Thailand the line is most times almost impossible to draw.

I am not trying to create a personal conflict between the two of us. I don’t think we can debate the issue because you are not willing to look at the facts and I am not willing to accept the information you present as fact.

Perhaps we can get there from looking at a different angle of the question.

I would be interested in your opinion why Russian men don’t buy prostitutes in Thailand.

I think we can agree that there are many Russian tourists in Thailand. I also think we may agree that they don’t frequent places of prostitution.

Why?

[MB1]

Quoting Sokal...

I never once said that women don't enjoy sex or not want sex for sex sake, of course they do. The problem is that they can get all the sex they want so there is no need for them to put out without getting something more then just the sex.

So you never said women don't enjoy sex or not want sex for sex sake, so what does the below mean that you said.....

women don't want no strings attached rolls in the hay

Or how about this......

women dont do casual flings purely for sex like a guy does

Or what about this little gem....

women lever security and/or money through sex always

MB1 thinks some people suffer from amnesia or maybe it's a selective memory......

Sokal thinks that a man aint going to get sex without some wealth.....,and also thinks that "an actual relationship is just as much about sex and money as prostitution".

And he says "That is just not true. There is not plenty of women who just want sex".....

It must be hard being 26 and thinking the things he does, or maybe he just don't care, he's been to Thailand..

Edited July 23, 2010 by MB1

[sarahsbloke]

Sex should be free, and not paid.

Who says you have to pay for it? A lot of sex is free. You just got to know how to get it for free!

You seem to be one of those guys that takes a girl to a restaurant and to the movies just to get into her pants. Movies and restaurants are not free, they are the cost of sex.

Never heard of going "Dutch", let me explain, the term can be used when a woman and a man share the costs, or do no women share costs...In your world....

I do know one Thai lady who likes sex just for fun (no cash, but dinner and drinks accepted), fairly unusual, she has about 5 or 6 different guys every week, similar to Thai guys with money. You couldn't have a proper relationship with a girl like that. She had a Belgium husband, don't know how he put up with it.

I also had a Thai gf who had her own business, she also required no cash from me (what cash she needed was provided by her Canadian husband). Liked to be taken to resorts, eat well and drink wine, she cost me more than whoring did. Another downside was I had to sit with her husband sometimes, where he would insist on telling me how lucky he was with his girl, who wasn't a bad girl like many of the others and didn't fool around with other guys.

Very few women (and that includes schoolteachers) that I meet in Thailand can afford to pay half the bill in the places I like to go and eat in the evening.

What do you suggest?

Then there are the foreigners who don't approve of prostitution, how do they manage to exist in Thailand? I suspect through stupidity.

So this older American lady (who I met during my Thai language studies) very outspoken about all these awful men living in her mooban with much younger Thai wives (whores as she referred to them), living in Thailand with her American husband. They would never go out to a bar with working girls, she stated. One night I was in a bar I liked (Sort of owned by a British guy and his Thai gf), no bar fines, but all the girls were available for hire after work or in the afternoons, when this lady turns up with her husband. What are you doing here I asked, you told me you didn't go to this sort of place? No girls on the game here, she stated very strongly, the owner would never allow it. She was wrong, I had hired most of them, including the owners gf. Not sure if he knew or not, been here 10 years and didn't speak one word of Thai.

So the question is, to those who disapprove of prostitution, how do you exist in Thailand?

I can find girls for hire in every bar, coffee shop, night club, disco and most restaurants, so do you never go out? Or do you play the ignorant game (like the lady in my story).

Edited July 23, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[cardholder]

You forgot about fat girls. Fat girls have a lot more sex than skinny girls. I don't know why. It is why a lot of guys like fat girls. I have always found ladies buying books like fat but fit are great fun and a pleasure to be with. People write off fat girls too quickly. It is really the person that counts not the pounds.

Fat girls simply need to put out more to get the same attention as a hot slim girl. Guys like fat girls because they put out more. They have less leverage.

How many rich men or celebrities have fat partners ?

Lenny Henry had one for many years.

[IanForbes]

If you want to discuss women and child abuse just pick any and every country that has any degree of Taliban muslim control. Read something of the poor women who must wear burkas and are not allowed any schooling or medical care.