Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

[TAWP]

Feel free to disregard it, but how big does a minority need to be before it raises concern? We've established that it DOES happen, also in the tourist areas, and that customers have no reliable way of recognizing that the girl is there due to debt bondage or worse. Someone mentioned 'up market venues' Let me submit that pretty much all of the up-market venues are in the local Thai scene; anything you see around you in Bangkok or Pattaya in terms of bars, brothels and massage shops is pretty close to bottom-end.

This thread is not about your concerns for a clear minority that we all can sympathize with. It is about if it is wrong to pay for sex.

If prostitution and brothels was legalized the workers would have better legal protection and the number of women you would like to feign concern for is most likely reduced drastically.

"TAWP", why the nastiness? Why would it be about my concerns? This is a forum is it not? I'm submitting some things that may raise concern, or indeed they may not, but why are you making this personal? And then "feign concern", <deleted>?

Dude, relax. People will start thinking you're having some personal interest in the industry.

You argue as if the sex trade in itself is the issue for some women's issues. It is not.

Of course it is!! Though perhaps more as a result than a cause; if there was more equal development and empowerment across the regions and classes, then many of the outrages in society, including the sex industry as well as others that are exploitative in nature, would not occur. (or occur far less)

Yes, I get upset when people pretend to care for the workers in the industry when infact they are purely driven by a moral agenda that benefit no-one.

And, as you acknowledge after protesting first (...), the sex-trade is not to blame for the women/men/girls/boys issues, it is merely a symptom.

Much like the fact that I go to work every day and hadn't had vacation for 2 years while being underpaid is a symptom that I am not born rich...

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Well, wait. I don't think I have a particular moral agenda; in fact I think legalizing the sex industry would be by far the best way forward. What I am advocating is acknowledging things as they are; that it's not all fun and games when you have to make a living in the sex industry, and that serious abuses do occur. You can only reasonably counter those abuses when acknowledging they exist, not by dismissing them as insignificant or by thinking they don't occur in one's favorite niche of the sex industry.

[Ulysses G.]

Unfortunately, there are people who are more than willing to blow a small number of abuses completely out of proportion in order to condemn the entire industry. Some of them are on this very thread.

[t.s]

re Mr Forbes novel an UGs reply to my comment.

I have no problems with the notion of a commercial transaction for sex between consenting adults.

All i see here is a man who made some stupid choices trying to equate his ex with a whore. strangely, i thought that with a prostitute you met, came to an agreement, had sex and then parted ways.

Despite some of the potentially expensive consequences of a failed marriage i don't see the parallel, nor do i see the point in trying to draw it unless you are trying to justify paid sex as equivalent to an actual relationship.

This discussion is fraught with folks who can't seem to make the distinction.

Edited July 21, 2010 by t.s

[Shotime]

re Mr Forbes novel an UGs reply to my comment.

I have no problems with the notion of a commercial transaction for sex between consenting adults.

All i see here is a man who made some stupid choices trying to equate his ex with a whore. strangely, i thought that with a prostitute you met, came to an agreement, had sex and then parted ways.

Despite some of the potentially expensive consequences of a failed marriage i don't see the parallel, nor do i see the point in trying to draw it unless you are trying to justify paid sex as equivalent to an actual relationship.

This discussion is fraught with folks who can't seem to make the distinction.

Well said. Better than I tried.

[IanForbes]

re Mr Forbes novel an UGs reply to my comment.

I have no problems with the notion of a commercial transaction for sex between consenting adults.

All i see here is a man who made some stupid choices trying to equate his ex with a whore. strangely, i thought that with a prostitute you met, came to an agreement, had sex and then parted ways.

Despite some of the potentially expensive consequences of a failed marriage i don't see the parallel, nor do i see the point in trying to draw it unless you are trying to justify paid sex as equivalent to an actual relationship.

This discussion is fraught with folks who can't seem to make the distinction.

We all make stupid choices, T,S. In my "novel" (as you so quaintly put it) I was just pointing out that you can do nothing morally wrong and yet still wind up with a failure no matter how hard you try. The comparison, unless you missed it, is the group here that says the only morally correct sex is within a committed relationship such as marriage; and I pointed out that marriage is a risky crap shoot at best, and not much better than buying a lottery ticket. If you are lucky you win. If you're not lucky you can lose everything you've worked for. One partner can come into a relationship with nothing more than their body and walk away a few years later with half of everything the other person worked for. The courts have decided that is fair. If you no longer want to risk that, and yet still want sex, then the only solution is bartering with a person for a price. I defy anyone to be absolutely certain how another person is going to react when under stress. But you can be certain that people of both sexes will moralize their actions in their own behalf. There are some cases where marriage is just bartering over sex. Women use their body to get what they want and men are only too willing to pay for it. You don't see very many beautiful women marrying poor, ugly men. Just check out the wives of movie stars, sports heroes or wealthy men with power.

[elkangorito]

I reckon most of you blokes are obsessed with sex workers.

[cardholder]

So, having paid my partner for sex when, if ever, does she stop being a whore ?

[t.s]

that is for you to determine. i hope for both your sakes you manage to work it out.

[t.s]

We all make stupid choices, T,S. In my "novel" (as you so quaintly put it) I was just pointing out that you can do nothing morally wrong and yet still wind up with a failure no matter how hard you try. The comparison, unless you missed it, is the group here that says the only morally correct sex is within a committed relationship such as marriage; and I pointed out that marriage is a risky crap shoot at best, and not much better than buying a lottery ticket. If you are lucky you win. If you're not lucky you can lose everything you've worked for. One partner can come into a relationship with nothing more than their body and walk away a few years later with half of everything the other person worked for. The courts have decided that is fair. If you no longer want to risk that, and yet still want sex, then the only solution is bartering with a person for a price. I defy anyone to be absolutely certain how another person is going to react when under stress. But you can be certain that people of both sexes will moralize their actions in their own behalf. There are some cases where marriage is just bartering over sex. Women use their body to get what they want and men are only too willing to pay for it. You don't see very many beautiful women marrying poor, ugly men. Just check out the wives of movie stars, sports heroes or wealthy men with power.

Ian, I think when you started the novel you may have wanted to make the above point but, by the time you finished, you just wanted to tell your story.

marriages can go wrong and prostitution has a dark side, but they are not one and the same thing.

Your failed western marriage and those of all the others who have shared their stories in a similar vein have little to do with the morality of engaging sex for money.

Edited July 21, 2010 by t.s

[cardholder]

that is for you to determine. i hope for both your sakes you manage to work it out.

In the words of Richard Gere in Pretty Woman - "I have never treated her like a whore".

[DavidOxon]

I like to see these type of threads, I like to see the responses from board members, many of whom seem so full of morals, so pure...............

In fact if it wasn't for the said topic of this thread, I sincerely doubt a large percentage of posters would even be here.

Of course, ThaiVisa members are different, yeah right.

Honesty costs you nothing folks, the ridiculous denials are in fact just that, ridiculous.

Why is it that so many expats I know ( and I know a lot ), met their wife or GF in a bar, but ThaiVisa members seem to never do this, is there a reason ?

It's nothing to do with wealth or age, my circle are O&G Workers, highly paid guys who can afford what they want, yet 100% of the guys I work with who live in Thailand met their GF or wife in a bar or similar establishment.

I can't understand why ThaiVisa members could be so different. I don't know one single guy that met his wife at the gates of the university and I've lived in Thailand for 19 years, yet ThaiVisa members seem to have this uncanny ability to get these girls with absolutely no problem at all.

Care to share your secrets ?

I met my wife (graduated in English and tourism at CMU) 14 years ago when she was on a cultural exchange programme in the UK and again 5 years ago when she was studying English and working in London. We married in the UK and now live here with a beautiful baby girl. Maybe you need to choose your friends more carefully?

David

[F1fanatic]

re Mr Forbes novel an UGs reply to my comment.

I have no problems with the notion of a commercial transaction for sex between consenting adults.

All i see here is a man who made some stupid choices trying to equate his ex with a whore. strangely, i thought that with a prostitute you met, came to an agreement, had sex and then parted ways.

Despite some of the potentially expensive consequences of a failed marriage i don't see the parallel, nor do i see the point in trying to draw it unless you are trying to justify paid sex as equivalent to an actual relationship.

This discussion is fraught with folks who can't seem to make the distinction.

We all make stupid choices, T,S. In my "novel" (as you so quaintly put it) I was just pointing out that you can do nothing morally wrong and yet still wind up with a failure no matter how hard you try. The comparison, unless you missed it, is the group here that says the only morally correct sex is within a committed relationship such as marriage; and I pointed out that marriage is a risky crap shoot at best, and not much better than buying a lottery ticket. If you are lucky you win. If you're not lucky you can lose everything you've worked for. One partner can come into a relationship with nothing more than their body and walk away a few years later with half of everything the other person worked for. The courts have decided that is fair. If you no longer want to risk that, and yet still want sex, then the only solution is bartering with a person for a price. I defy anyone to be absolutely certain how another person is going to react when under stress. But you can be certain that people of both sexes will moralize their actions in their own behalf. There are some cases where marriage is just bartering over sex. Women use their body to get what they want and men are only too willing to pay for it. You don't see very many beautiful women marrying poor, ugly men. Just check out the wives of movie stars, sports heroes or wealthy men with power.

Have to agree with "check out the wives of movie stars, sports heroes or wealthy men with power." Even in the West, there are some women looking for money.

The difference is that the women who marry them are rarely bar hostesses (even more rarely for the wealthy men with power, but no fame).

Prostitution has been around for a v long time, but its an 'art form' here. Instead of just selling a service for money, they pretend they 'love you too much' and the suckers believe them, even though they met them in a bar (not exactly a reputable place for Thai women)!

[F1fanatic]

Let me make some comparisons and tell me if I didn't pay for a woman's company when I was married.

When Maria came into my life it was second marriage for both of us. She had a job when we first met, but the government shut it down a short time later. After that she did not work except for a dozen small businesses that I financed for her. Before any of the businesses became successful she quit and started another. They varied from hair stylist, to doing nails, to selling jewelry, to selling Amway goods, and then running a day care for children. In each case I paid for the start up costs and kept things going, including doing the accounting. I know what the costs were. I put up with the constant career changes because I understand that not all careers suit everyong equally. One of her friends had a successful day care business and Maria though she would like that. It looked like a smart idea because I knew her friend was making a good income from her day care business. But, we needed a larger home than the nice little one I already owned and that was perfect for just two people.

So, I sold the small home and took out a big morthgage for a larger home in a better location, specifically so she could run the day care. The business was a success from the start and the location was great. But, Just before the day care started making money she turned it over to her daughter who only lasted another year with it before she also quit. Then, I was stuck with a big house we didn't need with a mortgage I didn't want and no income to pay for it. The whole thing cost me a lot of money. During that time, I also helped out her two adult children in trying to get them careers. I also bought Maria two new cars that her son prompted destroyed. Fortunately, the insurance (which I paid for) covered most of the damage costs.

When her adult son got into the drug scene I was naive in thinking I could help. I had to buy him out of a rental home that he destroyed, and he moved in with us. !0 months after he moved in she moved out and left her son with me. A short time after that I had to get the police to get her son out of my home because he was smashing it in fits of rage. A couple months after that she filed for divorce and wanted half of everything. Over the 7 years we were together she had contributed nothing other than her body and her company. When we finally parted she walked away with half of what I had worked all my life for. We probably had sex about 3 or 4 times a week... about what I get now when I'm in Thailand. I don't want to hear all the usual feminazi claptrap about looking after the home for me. I did all the cooking and the clean up afterwards when we were together, and I did all the yard work. She contributed by doing the laundry and the lnterior house cleaning. I could have paid Molly-Maid house cleaning for that.

I put up with all that because I truly was in love with the lady and would have done anything for her. Ienjoyed her company and we had some great times together, but If I were to divide all the times we made love together into what it cost me financially it would come to far more than I've ever paid for prostitutes. Yes, the sex was mostly better (but not always) and for the good times we had together it was worth it to me. But, don't tell me I didn't pay for her company. And, it wasn't a lot different than the few special ladies that visit me now on a regular basis.

YOU made a wrong choice....

I was married to my husband for 28 years and worked throughout, earning a similar wage - most times a bit less, some times a bit more.

Came to Thailand and he dumped me for a woman he met in a bar . I lost out big time financially - I thought we were secure financially, only to see 50% taken away - through no choice of my own.

All my friends back in the UK worked - they didn't prat around with their husband's money.

You were unlucky, don't you dare insinuate that all Western women are the same!

[t.s]

pray tell how, if you worked for a similar wage and came out with 50%, you lost out "big time financially"?

this thread is little more than a parade ground full of nice folks on both sides with axes to grind.

[F1fanatic]

pray tell how, if you worked for a similar wage and came out with 50%, you lost out "big time financially"?

this thread is little more than a parade ground full of nice folks on both sides with axes to grind.

Because we retired early to 'live a better life' rather than just building up money. Once we separated 50% of the private pension was not enough to support a single person - whereas 2 could live comfortably on 100%.

If we'd stayed in England, I'd still have a house and a good job. My ex husband was able to find work here to support him and his g/f - I wasn't and was left in trouble...

[cardholder]

pray tell how, if you worked for a similar wage and came out with 50%, you lost out "big time financially"?

this thread is little more than a parade ground full of nice folks on both sides with axes to grind.

Because we retired early to 'live a better life' rather than just building up money. Once we separated 50% of the private pension was not enough to support a single person - whereas 2 could live comfortably on 100%.

If we'd stayed in England, I'd still have a house and a good job. My ex husband was able to find work here to support him and his g/f - I wasn't and was left in trouble...

Sorry to hear about your bad, but it seems to confirm that a Thai bar girl is more economic to maintain than a Falang wife.

[F1fanatic]

My point was more though, that so many posters state that 'the Western wife took everything' What utter rubbish. If after 28 years I left with 50%, they were fools to lose everything!

And, Western wives nowadays generally work to help support the family. They don't expect to have the man pay for everything...

[t.s]

pray tell how, if you worked for a similar wage and came out with 50%, you lost out "big time financially"?

this thread is little more than a parade ground full of nice folks on both sides with axes to grind.

Because we retired early to 'live a better life' rather than just building up money. Once we separated 50% of the private pension was not enough to support a single person - whereas 2 could live comfortably on 100%.

If we'd stayed in England, I'd still have a house and a good job. My ex husband was able to find work here to support him and his g/f - I wasn't and was left in trouble...

it seems, like mr forbes "YOU made a wrong choice".

what i am having trouble with is how any of this is germaine to the topic?

[F1fanatic]

pray tell how, if you worked for a similar wage and came out with 50%, you lost out "big time financially"?

this thread is little more than a parade ground full of nice folks on both sides with axes to grind.

Because we retired early to 'live a better life' rather than just building up money. Once we separated 50% of the private pension was not enough to support a single person - whereas 2 could live comfortably on 100%.

If we'd stayed in England, I'd still have a house and a good job. My ex husband was able to find work here to support him and his g/f - I wasn't and was left in trouble...

Sorry to hear about your bad, but it seems to confirm that a Thai bar girl is more economic to maintain than a Falang wife.

Possibly, once here and the falang wife can no longer work.....

Funny though that the falang husbands never quite let go - and desperately try (after a few months) to regain the 'best friend' relationship they once had with their wives.

I know SO many Western women in a similar position - hubby left them shortly after coming here, and a few months later hubby is desperately trying to form a relationship again..... Weirdly enough, wife no longer wants to know.....

[F1fanatic]

pray tell how, if you worked for a similar wage and came out with 50%, you lost out "big time financially"?

this thread is little more than a parade ground full of nice folks on both sides with axes to grind.

Because we retired early to 'live a better life' rather than just building up money. Once we separated 50% of the private pension was not enough to support a single person - whereas 2 could live comfortably on 100%.

If we'd stayed in England, I'd still have a house and a good job. My ex husband was able to find work here to support him and his g/f - I wasn't and was left in trouble...

it seems, like mr forbes "YOU made a wrong choice".

what i am having trouble with is how any of this is germaine to the topic?

Quite right - but it worked for 28 years until coming to Thailand where bar hostesses were suddenly telling my hubby he was a 'hansum, sexy man' and they 'loved him too much'

Sorry for deviating from the topic in answering your questions, but I responded to the topic earlier -

"Prostitution has been around for a v long time, but its an 'art form' here. Instead of just selling a service for money, they pretend they 'love you too much' and the suckers believe them, even though they met them in a bar (not exactly a reputable place for Thai women)! "

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to repeat it.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I met my wife (graduated in English and tourism at CMU) 14 years ago when she was on a cultural exchange programme in the UK and again 5 years ago when she was studying English and working in London. We married in the UK and now live here with a beautiful baby girl. Maybe you need to choose your friends more carefully?

Cool, it took a while but we're finally at 'my wife is better than your wife'. Maybe we should get back on topic.

[MB1]

was married to my husband for 28 years and worked throughout, earning a similar wage - most times a bit less, some times a bit more.

Came to Thailand and he dumped me for a woman he met in a bar . I lost out big time financially - I thought we were secure financially, only to see 50% taken away - through no choice of my own.

Sorry to hear that FI, actually I've suspected for some time that you'd been dumped by a hubbie or boyfreind for a Thai woman but I never asked the question as IMO it was none of my buisness to ask, so thanks for your honesty, it kinda explains why you have the attitude you IMO seem to have in some of your post with regards to Thai women.

Anyway, you may have the last laugh and meet someone else and be happy, maybe your ex will realise one day that the grass aint always as green on the other side, and may want you back but it's too late, some people never realise what they have, until they lose it.

Edited July 21, 2010 by MB1

[GuestHouse]

You got a moral thing going there Guesthouse. I would suggest reading Rain by W.Somerset Maugham.

You know, I have not once mentioned morals in this thread.

Perhaps something I've said causes you to think there is a moral dimension to this issue?

Or perhaps your touchy on the subject of morality and blurted it out involuntarily?!

[GuestHouse]

Unfortunately, there are people who are more than willing to blow a small number of abuses completely out of proportion in order to condemn the entire industry. Some of them are on this very thread.

How much abuse would there have to be for it to start bothering you UG - what do you regard as an acceptable level of abuse?

[Ulysses G.]

These abuses already bother me - just like workers who are exploited making products for Westerners in the 3rd world - but if the vast majority of venues are not abusing these workers, why point your accusing finger at all of them?

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[mark45y]

You got a moral thing going there Guesthouse. I would suggest reading Rain by W.Somerset Maugham.

You know, I have not once mentioned morals in this thread.

Perhaps something I've said causes you to think there is a moral dimension to this issue?

Or perhaps your touchy on the subject of morality and blurted it out involuntarily?!

I don't want to spoil the story for you. Rain is a story about a preacher and a prostitute in the South Pacific. Your posts remind me of the tone of the preacher. Especially the bit about extreme abuse.

[Shotime]

So, having paid my partner for sex when, if ever, does she stop being a whore ?

In some cases, unfortunately, never. Can you hear her brain go cha-ching every time you hit it?

Everybody has to eat and have a roof over their head. Being of a whore mind-set goes beyond just money. It's more an attitude that they expect something for being with you. That's other than just caring and looking out for both your best intyerests. Otherwise, as they say on Maury's, she's a ho.

[sarahsbloke]

pray tell how, if you worked for a similar wage and came out with 50%, you lost out "big time financially"?

this thread is little more than a parade ground full of nice folks on both sides with axes to grind.

Because we retired early to 'live a better life' rather than just building up money. Once we separated 50% of the private pension was not enough to support a single person - whereas 2 could live comfortably on 100%.

If we'd stayed in England, I'd still have a house and a good job. My ex husband was able to find work here to support him and his g/f - I wasn't and was left in trouble...

it seems, like mr forbes "YOU made a wrong choice".

what i am having trouble with is how any of this is germaine to the topic?

Quite right - but it worked for 28 years until coming to Thailand where bar hostesses were suddenly telling my hubby he was a 'hansum, sexy man' and they 'loved him too much'

Sorry for deviating from the topic in answering your questions, but I responded to the topic earlier -

"Prostitution has been around for a v long time, but its an 'art form' here. Instead of just selling a service for money, they pretend they 'love you too much' and the suckers believe them, even though they met them in a bar (not exactly a reputable place for Thai women)! "

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to repeat it.

My marriage worked for 30 years, it was the attitude of my wife that split us up, not hos saying 'hello hansum man'.

I got a little fed up with earning all the family income, then having to do 1/2 the household chores when I came home from work.

Then listening to a woman screeching about how hard housework was all day, while showing me no affection at all.

My wife never pretended 'she love me too much', she seemed to hate me and treat me as a personal servant.

At least bargirls usually give value for the money you spend on them.

Being younger and prettier would never have split me from my western wife, the western wife being cold, lazy and demanding did (after 30 years).

Sorry F1, but it's just the attitudes you display in your posts make me think of my ex-wife, I'm sure you aren't really like that at all.

Maybe our failed marriages affect us all the same way and make us seem bitter towards the opposite sex.

So yes, I guess men are suckers for girls who pretend to love them, be they wife or whore, but why be a sucker for a woman who doesn't even bother to pretend any more?

Edited July 22, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Ulysses G.]

You got a moral thing going there Guesthouse. I would suggest reading Rain by W.Somerset Maugham.

You know, I have not once mentioned morals in this thread.

Rain is a story about a preacher and a prostitute in the South Pacific. Your posts remind me of the tone of the preacher. Especially the bit about extreme abuse.

He has a habit of denying the obvious. He didn't use the word "moral", so refuses to admit that you have a valid point. It is a tactic used on a regular basis that shouldn't fool anyone. If posts continually appear judgmental, prudish and puritanical, there is darn good chance that they are exactly that.