Islamic Terrorists Kill 3 More In Thailand

[Pepe']

All radical muslim terrorists killing innocents in Thailand and elsewhere must die...

[piet pompies]

I started reading about the history of Pattani. It seems they have fought Thai domination for centuries. They were quite enlightened, even to the point of having "queens" as rulers. The last book was a translation of a Malay text which said that Pattani even fought with Burma against Thailand several times around 1630. It was finally forcefully subjugated and divided. They had a really tough time under Phibulsongkram, no Malay education, suppression of culture etc.

So far I seemed to find a Nationalistic reason for separation rather than a religious one. any historical remarks will be welcome.

I always remember in the USA looking at New Hampshire car plates.." Live Free or Die".

[Boon Mee]

Retired Thai Army General Kitti Rattanachaya gave an interview this week in which he described what he saw as the facts about the Muslim insurgency in Southern Thailand. We are at a useful moment to review the facts. Gen. Kitti said:

There is still no light at the end of the tunnel. Eighteen months after the government started deploying massive numbers of troops into the region, the situation is getting worse," Kitti said.

"The separatist movement has complete control of the people. Only the land belongs to us, but the people belong to the movement, 100 percent," he said.

A decades-old Muslim separatist movement in the deep south of Thailand died down in the late-1980s after the government granted an arms amnesty.

The violence surged again early last year, resulting in more than 880 deaths during the past 18 months.

The southernmost provinces of Pattani, Narathiwat and Yala are the only Muslim majority areas in predominantly Buddhist Thailand.

Southerners have long complained of discrimination in education and jobs.

Kitti said the separatists have stockpiled more than 7,000 guns, many of which have been stolen from the army and police, including in an attack on an army camp that launched the latest wave of attacks.

Kitti cited various intelligence sources as saying that at least seven Indonesian Muslim militants have gone to the south to provide military training for the Thai insurgents.

"Things are getting worse because the government doesn't accept the fact that this is a movement of terrorists and separatists," he said.

Read the rest

[Boon Mee]

Thai rebels said to have big arsenal

2005-07-05 / Associated Press /

A former regional army commander said yesterday that Thai Muslim insurgents have stockpiled more than 7,000 firearms and trained with Indonesian militants to wreak violence in southern Thailand.

Retired Army General Kitti Rattanachaya, who was praised for maintaining the peace in the 1990s and has been a security adviser to the current administration, said the government's mishandling of the situation could cause it to deteriorate.

"There is still no light at the end of the tunnel. Eighteen months after the government started deploying massive numbers of troops into the region, the situation is getting worse," Kitti told the Associated Press.

"The separatist movement has complete control of the people. Only the land belongs to us, but the people belong to the movement, 100 percent."

A decades-old Muslim separatist movement in the deep south of Thailand died down in the late-1980s after the government granted an arms amnesty.

The violence surged again early last year, resulting in more than 880 deaths during the past 18 months. The southernmost provinces of Pattani, Narathiwat and Yala are the only Muslim majority areas in predominantly Buddhist Thailand. Southerners have long complained of discrimination in education and jobs.

Kitti said the separatists have stockpiled more than 7,000 guns, many of which have been stolen from the army and police, including in an attack on an army camp that launched the latest wave of attacks.

A group of armed men on January 4, 2004, stormed a camp in Narathiwat, killing four soldiers and stealing more than 400 weapons, mostly assault rifles. The raid prompted the government to deploy more than 50,000 soldiers in the region.

Kitti cited intelligence sources as saying that at least seven Indonesian Muslim militants have gone to the south to provide military training for the Thai insurgents.

"Things are getting worse because the government doesn't accept the fact that this is a movement of terrorists and separatists," he said.

Downplaying the adviser's remarks, Defense Minister Thammarak Isarangura said the situation is under control, and that locals will be trained to defend themselves against the militants.

"The situation is calming down, and in some areas, daily attacks on innocent people have decreased by 50 percent," Thammarak said.

Well, that's good news...

Link

[Kerryd]

what do you think they had in mind in the way of power sharing?

do you think they are willing to live side by side with other people of other beliefs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think their Koran is getting in the way...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. Despite what may be said by some high ranking (western) Muslims, the fact remains that Islam is the least tolerant of all the mainstream religions. In many Islamic countries, you can be arrested and sentenced to death for preaching anything other than Islam.

Some countries will tolerate non-Muslims, as long as they keep out-of-sight and out-of-mind.

Remember the little war between the various arab countries and Israel ? The UN approved the new Jewish state, The British left, Israel declared it's independance and the next day, the Arab countries (Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, and a token force from Saudi Arabia) attacked.

Remember that there was no "Palestinian Refugee" crisis at this time. Their motivation for the attack was to wipe out the Jews, period.

Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, at Cairo press conference, (reported in the New York Times, May 16, 1948) declared "jihad", a holy war. He said that the Arab states rejected partition and intended to set up a "United State of Palestine." He then stated:

This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades".

The Muslim view is that Israel is a Naqbah (catastrophe), an affront to their religious faith. As such, Israel must be resisted by all available means and eradicated as soon as possible.

I use this to point out that the idea of Muslims living in peace with non-Muslim neighbours is very unlikely.

Look around the world. Almost everywhere that has large Muslim populations is experiencing violence, even in Europe to some degree.

The violence in the south is just the tip of the iceberg. It's going to get a lot worse before it starts getting any better.

[Kringle]

Must be the muslims themselves that don't want to get rid of these !%$#*&@ wits. If the muslims leaders of the NON radicals don't want to stop this then it will never happen.

[chownah]

You guys seem to think that there is one official Muslim policy on these matters and that you know what it is....I doubt it. The Muslims in the middle east don't even really consider the Muslims in SE Asia to be real Muslims!!! The Muslim world is not one monolithic block....it has many different factions....some factions get alot more press (the Muslims who are terrorist or whatever you want to call them) and some factions get no press (the Muslims who live peacefully along side people of any religion or nationality).

[TokyoT]

You guys seem to think that there is one official Muslim policy on these matters and that you know what it is....I doubt it.  The Muslims in the middle east don't even really consider the Muslims in SE Asia to be real Muslims!!!  The Muslim world is not one monolithic block....it has many different factions....some factions get alot more press (the Muslims who are terrorist or whatever you want to call them) and some factions get no press (the Muslims who live peacefully along side people of any religion or nationality).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can someone supply a specific reference of a Muslim dominated society that currently has a peaceful relationship with all neighbor/states that are non-Muslim? That has no fundamentalist groups that are using violence against non-Muslims in and around them?

A simple question – that requires a simple response.

I have no disagreement with the fact that there are peaceful Muslims that do co-exist with non-Muslims. But I am unaware of any Muslim dominated society that is doing this at present. I am not attempting to flame or be snide in my question. Simply attempting to be better informed - please provide some specific examples and help me to be better informed.

Is Turkey such an example?

[WhiteShiva]

You guys seem to think that there is one official Muslim policy on these matters and that you know what it is....I doubt it.  The Muslims in the middle east don't even really consider the Muslims in SE Asia to be real Muslims!!!  The Muslim world is not one monolithic block....it has many different factions....some factions get alot more press (the Muslims who are terrorist or whatever you want to call them) and some factions get no press (the Muslims who live peacefully along side people of any religion or nationality).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can someone supply a specific reference of a Muslim dominated society that currently has a peaceful relationship with all neighbor/states that are non-Muslim? That has no fundamentalist groups that are using violence against non-Muslims in and around them?

A simple question – that requires a simple response.

I have no disagreement with the fact that there are peaceful Muslims that do co-exist with non-Muslims. But I am unaware of any Muslim dominated society that is doing this at present. I am not attempting to flame or be snide in my question. Simply attempting to be better informed - please provide some specific examples and help me to be better informed.

Is Turkey such an example?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to provide some balance:

Can you name one western country that has no fundamentalist (e.g. right wing) groups that are using violence against people of another race/religion?

No KKK, neo-nazis, skinheads, etc ......

[Kerryd]

Is Turkey such an example?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hardly ! Consider the ongoing disagreement(s) with Greece (Orthodox Catholic majority), especially over Cyprus.

Add to that the "internal" problems with their Kurdish minority (another group that wants to create an independant state, also active in northern Iraq and Iran).

During the most recent Iraq invasion, there was considerable worry that Turkey might invade northern Iraq to deal with the Kurdish situaton. I think there was a lot of behind the scenes negotiations and compromises made to keep them out of it.

Chownah: You are correct (more or less) that there isn't one grand Muslim "master plan" (i.e. an integrated plan involving various groups scattered across the globe, organized and controlled by a single group).

However, each group, (be it Shi'ite, Sunni, Wahabbi, Malaysian, Phillipino, ect), reads from the same Koran (Qu'ran). There isn't a different version for different groups, and according to Islamic law, the Koran must be taught in it's original Arabic.

This means each Muslim community, regardless of location, is raised with the same teachings and ideals. This has lead to the widespread problems we see happening now, almost around the world.

Remember too, that even though these groups are scattered around the globe, it is the duty of every able-bodied Muslim to make the pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in his lifetime, providing he has the means to do so. Do you think they all spend a whole month there doing nothing but praying ?

As I mentioned in a previous post, Islam is about power. The way it is written, anyone can decide who is a "True Believer" and who has had their "eyes and ears closed by Allah" (non-believers). It is allowable to kill non-believers. The only "innocents" are those who are "True Believers", (as defined by who ever is wielding the biggest stick).

This is why Muslims can justify killing other Muslims so easily. If the "other" Muslims were "True Believers", they would believe in Allah the way I believe, and would follow my orders. If they don't follow my orders (and pay their tithes to my mosque), then they are not "True Believers".

Power and money. That's what it boils down to. Much the same way the Christian churches used to operate in the Middle Ages. The churches collected tithes, the bishops and cardinals were all-powerful, and anyone who dissented was branded a heretic and killed. Much of the monies collected (to help the poor of course) went towards funding things like the crusades.

Islam is at the same point now (in ideology), as the Catholic church was almost 1,000 years ago, except that now they have better technology.

The scariest thought would be the arrival one day of a person that could unite all the various Muslim groups into a single purpose. This isn't likely to happen though, for the same reasons already mentioned. The leaders of each "group" already see themselves as the only "True Believer", and are not going to give up their power to someone else willingly. They may cooperate with other groups if it is in their interest, but give up power ?

It is even written in the Koran, that if you have a treaty with another group, and you suspect that they may not be honest, you are allowed to break the treaty and attack first. Remember that to a Muslim, this is directly from Allah.

I plan on writing a book on this and related matters one day. I'll have to change my name and go into hiding if I ever do though.

[chownah]

Chownah: You are correct (more or less) that there isn't one grand Muslim "master plan" (i.e. an integrated plan involving various groups scattered across the globe, organized and controlled by a single group).

However, each group, (be it Shi'ite, Sunni, Wahabbi, Malaysian, Phillipino, ect), reads from the same Koran (Qu'ran). There isn't a different version for different groups, and according to Islamic law, the Koran must be taught in it's original Arabic.

This means each Muslim community, regardless of location, is raised with the same teachings and ideals. This has lead to the widespread problems we see happening now, almost around the world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that you are incorrect when you say, "This means each Muslim community, regardless of location, is raised with the same teachings and ideals." I have friends who are Muslim and they tell me that the Koran is explained in different way by different teachers....they are not called teachers, I forget what they are called. Some are very liberal and some are very strict...some are very militant. My friends told me that it is wrong to think that all Muslims have the same understanding of the Koran and that there is a lively ongoing debate in the Muslim world about the proper meaning of the Koran. Muslims sometimes 'follow' one teacher's teachings and they identify themselves as being a follower of that teacher. I would have to say that based on what my friends have said there is a wide range of ideas about the Koran's meaning.

[Kringle]

Without getting into all the other places with muslims and terrorist, I would like to know what percentage of the muslims in the south of Thailand are the good NON radical type and what amount of them are of this radical kill anyone against us group. I would like to believe that there are more of the good ones but can't understand why THEY THEMSELVES don't do more to clean up this freeforall killing that is going on. Surely they would know some, if not most of the animals responsible for what is going on. Maybe there should be a reward set on informing on these fvckwits and help stop this senseless killing. If there is already a reward system and it's not working, increase the reward. It might not get them all but I think would help to at least get some of the b^stards.

[WhiteShiva]

Without getting into all the other places with muslims and terrorist, I would like to know what percentage of the muslims in the south of Thailand are the good NON radical type and what amount of them are of this radical kill anyone against us group. I would like to believe that there are more of the good ones but can't understand why THEY THEMSELVES don't do more to clean up this freeforall killing that is going on. Surely they would know some, if not most of the animals responsible for what is going on. Maybe there should be a reward set on informing on these fvckwits and help stop this senseless killing. If there is already a reward system and it's not working, increase the reward. It might not get them all but I think would help to at least get some of the b^stards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kringle - what makes you so sure all, or even the majority of these killings are carried out by muslims? Think about it - who benefits the most from the current situation.........?

[Kerryd]

I believe that  you are incorrect when you say, "This means each Muslim community, regardless of location, is raised with the same teachings and ideals."  I have friends who are Muslim and they tell me that the Koran is explained in different way by different teachers....they are not called teachers, I forget what they are called. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Imam is the term used, usually. Sometimes they are referred to as clerics. The higher-ups (in the Middle East at least) are "Mullah's.

Some are very liberal and some are very strict...some are very militant. My friends told me that it is wrong to think that all Muslims have the same understanding of the Koran and that there is a lively ongoing debate in the Muslim world about the proper meaning of the Koran. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, much the same as in Christianity. And when someone doesn't like what is taught, or the way it is taught, they branch off into their own "sect" (for example: Mormons, Baptists, Lutherans, Calvanists, Anglicans and so on). Actually, Buddhism is quite similar in that aspect as well.

Just as with the bible, different people have different understandings of the Koran. Yes, a liberal teacher may emphasis the generous aspects of Islam, while another, stricter teacher may emphasis the violent aspects. They teach from the same book, but of course, the level of understanding will depend largely on who is teaching, and what they are teaching.

Muslims sometimes 'follow' one teacher's teachings and they identify themselves as being a follower of that teacher.  I would have to say that based on what my friends have said there is a wide range of ideas about the Koran's meaning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know a few Muslims in Canada, some were even in the military. No headscarves on the women, they could drink in the same places the men could, and basically (outside their homes at least), they lived the same as most non-Muslims.

Funny how a little prosperity can change one's views. None of the Muslims I know in Canada would consider blowing themselves up just because their Imam or Mullah asked them to.

Yes, Muslims usually follow one teacher's teachings and identify with him, much the same as many people follow the teachings of people such as Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Louis Farrakhan, ect.

Remember again that, outside of the Middle East, most Muslims are not fluent in Arabic. Even within the Middle East, many Muslims are illiterate. As the Koran is (supposed) to be taught in it's original Arabic, it is left up to the teacher (imam) to tell his flock what the book means. If that imam choses to "read between the lines" or do a little fabricating now and then, who's to know ?

Ever hear of the promise of 72 virgins in Paradise to those that give their lives in Allah's name (i.e. martyrs/suicide bombers) ? Where did that come from ? I haven't seen it anywhere in my copy of the Koran.

All that is ever promised is "Gardens watered by running streams". Hardly incentive to blow yourself up. Someone, somewhere had to spice it up a bit in order to get those kids revved up enough to strap on the bombs.

Notice how it's usually the younger element that make up the vast majority of the suicide bombers ? You never hear of the senior (and smarter) "leaders" offering to strap on the bombs. Hmmmmm, what's up with that ?

As you are probably aware, it is expected in places like Afghanistan that the women will be completely covered in burquas or similar garb. Why ?

According to the Koran, a woman must keep her "trinkets" hidden from males not of her family (Allah even goes into great lengths to explain which cousins and nephews are considered "family").

But what are her "trinkets" ? In Egypt and other places belly-dancing is quite common, yet in Afghanistan (during the Taliban), showing any skin above the soles of the feet could get you killed for being promiscuous !

[Tolley]

The western media has managed quite successfully to foster an anti muslim atmosphere judging by many of the ill informed emotion charged anti muslim posts in this topic.

Firstly most muslims believe it or not are like you and me.

They just want to get on with their lives, make money and have a good time. They have no interest in radical ideologies.

THere are of course a minority who have more sinister motives and are ready to exploit things to their advantage.

A close look at Al Queda and you will see that the source of much of the extremism is a result of US support for Israel and of course US support for some of the most repressive and severe regimes in the ME. These regimes have given very little to their people and rule like medievel feudal lords. They have enormous wealth and are extremely corrupt and the benefits are not filtering down to the average person. Al Queda has exploited these conditions and gathered a support base from many of the disenfranchised arabs in the ME.

The election of both Sharon and Bush who are hard line conservatives furthered boosted the stocks of radical muslims. The icing on the cake of course was the invasion of Iraq. Bin Laden probably couldn't belive his luck as the Bush team helped recrutiment for Al Queda with its ham fisted handling of the Iraq situation. Bush is seen as a bully boy in many Muslim circles with his threats to Syria, Iran etc. His lack of tact and Christian fundamentalism has been exploited by radical muslims to help bolster the stocks of radical groups.

In short the rise of radical fundamentalist groups is a direct result of the corrupt and despotic regimes that proliferate in the ME. These regimes have received the support of the US and other western countries so that the west can guarantee a cheap oil supply. Radical groups have exploited this connection and along with the election in the west of harline conservatives like Bush and in Israel Sharon coupled with the bungled fiasco of Iraq have created the ideal conditions for the growth and prosperity of organisation like Al Queda and other radical mulim off shoots.

[Kerryd]

The western media has managed quite successfully to foster an anti muslim atmosphere judging by many of the ill informed emotion charged anti muslim posts in this topic.

Firstly most muslims believe it or not are like you and me.

They just want to get on with their lives, make money and have a good time. They have no interest in radical ideologies.

THere are of course a minority who have more sinister motives and are ready to exploit things to their advantage.

A close look at Al Queda and you will see that the source of much of the extremism is a result of US support for Israel and of course US support for some of the most repressive and severe regimes in the ME. These regimes have given very little to their people and rule like medievel feudal lords. They have enormous wealth and are extremely corrupt and the benefits are not filtering down to the average person. Al Queda has exploited these conditions and gathered a support base from many of the disenfranchised arabs in the ME.

The election of both Sharon and Bush who are hard line conservatives furthered boosted the stocks of radical muslims. The icing on the cake of course was the invasion of Iraq. Bin Laden probably couldn't belive his luck as the Bush team helped recrutiment for Al Queda with its ham fisted handling of the Iraq situation. Bush is seen as a bully boy in many Muslim circles with his threats to Syria, Iran etc. His lack of tact and Christian fundamentalism has been exploited by radical muslims to help bolster the stocks of radical groups.

In short the rise of radical fundamentalist groups is a direct result of the corrupt and despotic regimes that proliferate in the ME. These regimes have received the support of the US and other western countries so that the west can guarantee a cheap oil supply. Radical groups have exploited this connection and along with the election in the west of harline conservatives like Bush and in Israel Sharon coupled with the bungled fiasco of Iraq have created the ideal conditions for the growth and prosperity of organisation like Al Queda and other radical mulim off shoots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you believe in genocide ? Do you believe that Israel should be annihiliated, and all Jews executed ?

Well, that is exactly what would happen if the United States stopped supporting Israel (assuming the Israelis lost for a change). Remember, that particular little problem erupted after Israel declared it's independance, and the Arab nations attacked it the next day. The "Palestinian" refugeee problem that is used as an excuse today, didn't exist then. The Palestinian refugees are used today as an excuse to try and justify the extermination of Israel. Why ? Because they are Jewish. Period. That is the only true reason for the hostilities in that area. The Arabs (Muslims) want to wipe out the Israelis (Jews), the Israelis want to survive.

What would you do if you woke up tomorrow morning, and everybody surrounding you decided to wipe you off the face of the earth ? Roll over and play dead ? Stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening ?

Yes, the US has supported some pretty bad regimes over the years. Remember that the US used to support Iran. Then it switched it's support to Iraq after that little hostage taking incident in '82.

But you also have to remember that Russia supported Egypt, Syria, Libya and other similar countries. Just as brutal (then) as any supported by the US.

Saudi Arabia is supported (sort of) by the US, and often supports the US (and buys most of it's weapons from them). Yet Saudi Arabia is one of the most fundementalist Islamic countries around. The birthplace of Islam and guardian of the most holy sites in Islam (Mecca and Medina). On the other hand, they are also accused of funding much of the terrorism that goes on in the owrld today. (oh yeah, in case you didn't know it, Bin Laden is a Saudi)

Yes, you could probably say that most Muslims in the world are regular people, concerned about their families and jobs, wanting a better future for their families. And yes, most of the terrorism we hear about is the result of a small minority of the overall population. Just as not all Roman Catholic priests abuse their altar boys, not all Muslims are terrorists.

So the terrorism/violence in the south of Thailand, Bali, the Phillippines, the Kashmir, Western China, the Sudan, Chad, Nigeria, Yemen, and other places, is all the fault of the US and Israel ? Wow.

[Kringle]

Without getting into all the other places with muslims and terrorist, I would like to know what percentage of the muslims in the south of Thailand are the good NON radical type and what amount of them are of this radical kill anyone against us group. I would like to believe that there are more of the good ones but can't understand why THEY THEMSELVES don't do more to clean up this freeforall killing that is going on. Surely they would know some, if not most of the animals responsible for what is going on. Maybe there should be a reward set on informing on these fvckwits and help stop this senseless killing. If there is already a reward system and it's not working, increase the reward. It might not get them all but I think would help to at least get some of the b^stards.

Kringle - what makes you so sure all, or even the majority of these killings are carried out by muslims? Think about it - who benefits the most from the current situation.........?

Then you tell us because I wouldn't have a clue who is doing this if it isn't indeed muslim radicals. Do you have any proof otherwise?

[chownah]

The western media has managed quite successfully to foster an anti muslim atmosphere judging by many of the ill informed emotion charged anti muslim posts in this topic.

Firstly most muslims believe it or not are like you and me.

They just want to get on with their lives, make money and have a good time. They have no interest in radical ideologies.

THere are of course a minority who have more sinister motives and are ready to exploit things to their advantage.

A close look at Al Queda and you will see that the source of much of the extremism is a result of US support for Israel and of course US support for some of the most repressive and severe regimes in the ME. These regimes have given very little to their people and rule like medievel feudal lords. They have enormous wealth and are extremely corrupt and the benefits are not filtering down to the average person. Al Queda has exploited these conditions and gathered a support base from many of the disenfranchised arabs in the ME.

The election of both Sharon and Bush who are hard line conservatives furthered boosted the stocks of radical muslims. The icing on the cake of course was the invasion of Iraq. Bin Laden probably couldn't belive his luck as the Bush team helped recrutiment for Al Queda with its ham fisted handling of the Iraq situation. Bush is seen as a bully boy in many Muslim circles with his threats to Syria, Iran etc. His lack of tact and Christian fundamentalism has been exploited by radical muslims to help bolster the stocks of radical groups.

In short the rise of radical fundamentalist groups is a direct result of the corrupt and despotic regimes that proliferate in the ME. These regimes have received the support of the US and other western countries so that the west can guarantee a cheap oil supply. Radical groups have exploited this connection and along with the election in the west of harline conservatives like Bush and in Israel Sharon coupled with the bungled fiasco of Iraq have created the ideal conditions for the growth and prosperity of organisation like Al Queda and other radical mulim off shoots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you believe in genocide ? Do you believe that Israel should be annihiliated, and all Jews executed ?

Well, that is exactly what would happen if the United States stopped supporting Israel (assuming the Israelis lost for a change). Remember, that particular little problem erupted after Israel declared it's independance, and the Arab nations attacked it the next day. The "Palestinian" refugeee problem that is used as an excuse today, didn't exist then. The Palestinian refugees are used today as an excuse to try and justify the extermination of Israel. Why ? Because they are Jewish. Period. That is the only true reason for the hostilities in that area. The Arabs (Muslims) want to wipe out the Israelis (Jews), the Israelis want to survive.

What would you do if you woke up tomorrow morning, and everybody surrounding you decided to wipe you off the face of the earth ? Roll over and play dead ? Stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening ?

Yes, the US has supported some pretty bad regimes over the years. Remember that the US used to support Iran. Then it switched it's support to Iraq after that little hostage taking incident in '82.

But you also have to remember that Russia supported Egypt, Syria, Libya and other similar countries. Just as brutal (then) as any supported by the US.

Saudi Arabia is supported (sort of) by the US, and often supports the US (and buys most of it's weapons from them). Yet Saudi Arabia is one of the most fundementalist Islamic countries around. The birthplace of Islam and guardian of the most holy sites in Islam (Mecca and Medina). On the other hand, they are also accused of funding much of the terrorism that goes on in the owrld today. (oh yeah, in case you didn't know it, Bin Laden is a Saudi)

Yes, you could probably say that most Muslims in the world are regular people, concerned about their families and jobs, wanting a better future for their families. And yes, most of the terrorism we hear about is the result of a small minority of the overall population. Just as not all Roman Catholic priests abuse their altar boys, not all Muslims are terrorists.

So the terrorism/violence in the south of Thailand, Bali, the Phillippines, the Kashmir, Western China, the Sudan, Chad, Nigeria, Yemen, and other places, is all the fault of the US and Israel ? Wow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not wanting to start a thread on Israel and I'm not wanting to flame anyone or be flamed but I do think that your explanation of Israel's situation is overly simplistic and abit one sided. There are valid reasons for the people who lived in the region in and around Israel to feel that they got screwed over when Israel was founded. I'm really not wanting to try to explain because I don't have all the facts and there has been so much rhetoric in the world about Israel... from both sides...and I'm talking about rhetoric that is generated by people who do not have all the facts or else who are conveniently omitting some of the facts. I'm not saying that this is you or anyone else here at TV. I'm just saying that there are two sides two the story and from what I know now (which is not enough for me to draw firm conclusions) there is almost certainly reason to believe that both sides are being unreasonable and that neither side is looking for a 'fair' settlement. I don't support either side and frankly I don't see a solution and I can't say that either side is right or preferable.

[piet pompies]

This topic has become a religious discussion. Nothing to do with the original subject, why do the moderators accept this? It appear the topic is condoned on a anti muslim bias.

As far as another member asked, Malasia is a muslim society, at peace with neighbours and relative freedom of rights, speech, etc. Morocco similarly, many westerners live there, a good life if one respects the values of the country. Certainly good food and wine as well as lodging is available.

[WhiteShiva]

Without getting into all the other places with muslims and terrorist, I would like to know what percentage of the muslims in the south of Thailand are the good NON radical type and what amount of them are of this radical kill anyone against us group. I would like to believe that there are more of the good ones but can't understand why THEY THEMSELVES don't do more to clean up this freeforall killing that is going on. Surely they would know some, if not most of the animals responsible for what is going on. Maybe there should be a reward set on informing on these fvckwits and help stop this senseless killing. If there is already a reward system and it's not working, increase the reward. It might not get them all but I think would help to at least get some of the b^stards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kringle - what makes you so sure all, or even the majority of these killings are carried out by muslims? Think about it - who benefits the most from the current situation.........?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then you tell us because I wouldn't have a clue who is doing this if it isn't indeed muslim radicals. Do you have any proof otherwise?

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Let's just say that certain elements in the army and police forces (and quite possibly other parties) are enganged in a bit of a turf war over control of several lucerative markets, such as weapons, drugs and fuel smuggling. Now imagine if the very people who are supposed to protect the population are the ones causing most of the trouble. Then it becomes clear why the government (not to mention the army & police) is more inclined to blame seperatists.

I am not saying there are no muslim militants, but there are other issues involved here as well. Normally separatists are quite keen to claim responsibility for incidents, yet it rarely (if ever) happens in the south.

Proof - no, but I have talked to people who are more up-to-date on the happenings in the south than the local newspapers or media are. At least one of them have received death threats for simply insinuating in public what I wrote above.

Edited July 8, 2005 by WhiteShiva

[Tolley]

The western media has managed quite successfully to foster an anti muslim atmosphere judging by many of the ill informed emotion charged anti muslim posts in this topic.

Firstly most muslims believe it or not are like you and me.

They just want to get on with their lives, make money and have a good time. They have no interest in radical ideologies.

THere are of course a minority who have more sinister motives and are ready to exploit things to their advantage.

A close look at Al Queda and you will see that the source of much of the extremism is a result of US support for Israel and of course US support for some of the most repressive and severe regimes in the ME. These regimes have given very little to their people and rule like medievel feudal lords. They have enormous wealth and are extremely corrupt and the benefits are not filtering down to the average person. Al Queda has exploited these conditions and gathered a support base from many of the disenfranchised arabs in the ME.

The election of both Sharon and Bush who are hard line conservatives furthered boosted the stocks of radical muslims. The icing on the cake of course was the invasion of Iraq. Bin Laden probably couldn't belive his luck as the Bush team helped recrutiment for Al Queda with its ham fisted handling of the Iraq situation. Bush is seen as a bully boy in many Muslim circles with his threats to Syria, Iran etc. His lack of tact and Christian fundamentalism has been exploited by radical muslims to help bolster the stocks of radical groups.

In short the rise of radical fundamentalist groups is a direct result of the corrupt and despotic regimes that proliferate in the ME. These regimes have received the support of the US and other western countries so that the west can guarantee a cheap oil supply. Radical groups have exploited this connection and along with the election in the west of harline conservatives like Bush and in Israel Sharon coupled with the bungled fiasco of Iraq have created the ideal conditions for the growth and prosperity of organisation like Al Queda and other radical mulim off shoots.

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Do you believe in genocide ? Do you believe that Israel should be annihiliated, and all Jews executed ?

Well, that is exactly what would happen if the United States stopped supporting Israel (assuming the Israelis lost for a change). Remember, that particular little problem erupted after Israel declared it's independance, and the Arab nations attacked it the next day. The "Palestinian" refugeee problem that is used as an excuse today, didn't exist then. The Palestinian refugees are used today as an excuse to try and justify the extermination of Israel. Why ? Because they are Jewish. Period. That is the only true reason for the hostilities in that area. The Arabs (Muslims) want to wipe out the Israelis (Jews), the Israelis want to survive.

What would you do if you woke up tomorrow morning, and everybody surrounding you decided to wipe you off the face of the earth ? Roll over and play dead ? Stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening ?

Yes, the US has supported some pretty bad regimes over the years. Remember that the US used to support Iran. Then it switched it's support to Iraq after that little hostage taking incident in '82.

But you also have to remember that Russia supported Egypt, Syria, Libya and other similar countries. Just as brutal (then) as any supported by the US.

Saudi Arabia is supported (sort of) by the US, and often supports the US (and buys most of it's weapons from them). Yet Saudi Arabia is one of the most fundementalist Islamic countries around. The birthplace of Islam and guardian of the most holy sites in Islam (Mecca and Medina). On the other hand, they are also accused of funding much of the terrorism that goes on in the owrld today. (oh yeah, in case you didn't know it, Bin Laden is a Saudi)

Yes, you could probably say that most Muslims in the world are regular people, concerned about their families and jobs, wanting a better future for their families. And yes, most of the terrorism we hear about is the result of a small minority of the overall population. Just as not all Roman Catholic priests abuse their altar boys, not all Muslims are terrorists.

So the terrorism/violence in the south of Thailand, Bali, the Phillippines, the Kashmir, Western China, the Sudan, Chad, Nigeria, Yemen, and other places, is all the fault of the US and Israel ? Wow.

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Please re read my post as it seems that you have misconstrued what i have been trying to say.

My post was an attempt to explain the growth of terrorism. There are reasons why groups resort to terrorism and there are also reasons why Al Qadea in particular have been relatively successful. The world doesn't operate in a vacuum. Now you perceive that the US and Israel have done nothing wrong but this is not the perception in the majority of the Arab world. At the core of the whole problem is that Israeli Palestinian conflict. No sensible person could say that either side has the moral superiority in this long standing bitter dispute. There is also strong distrust of the US in the ME as a result of its support for Israel and also its meddling in other areas in the ME like Iraq and its support for some very questionable regimes.

BTW I know a fair bit about Saudi as i have lived there for the last 10 yars.

Edited July 9, 2005 by Tolley