ทองหยอง

[DavidHouston]

Friends,

From Lexitron: "ทองหยอง [N] gold ornament; ornament Syn. ทองรูปพรรณ, ทอง". I have been unable to find a meaning for the suffix หยอง, save for หมูหยอง. Bui said in effect that "หยอง" in this context had no independent meaning but was added as an alliterative suffix. Could it be that there is more consanguinity here between ทองหยอง and หมูหยอง than might be apparent? Might "หยอง" refer to filaments and filigree, i.e., delicate strands of either gold or pork?

What do you think?

[inthepink]

As an adjective, หยอง means frightened but that doesn't make a lot of sense...frightened gold!

I have a Thai-Thai dictionary (if you see what I mean) and it says the word is ภาษาปาก, i.e. conversational rather than written, formal Thai, but that's not a lot of help to you either I guess.

Edited July 17, 2010 by inthepink

[mikenyork]

The only help I can be is that I got the same answer from my favorite native speaker, just alliteration.

[DavidHouston]

Thank you, inthepink and Mike, for your thoughts.

It appears that I have been seeking the word in all the wrong places. The RID has two entries under the spelling หย็อง (note the shortening mark):

หย็อง ๑ก. กลัว, ไม่สู้, หวาดกลัว, เช่น พอเห็นคู่ต่อสู้ก็หย็องเสียแล้ว. ว. มีอาการหวาดกลัว เช่น พอถูกขู่เข้าหน่อยก็ทําท่าหย็อง.

หย็อง ๒ก. ทําให้เป็นฝอยฟู ๆ เช่น เอาเนื้อหมูไปหย็อง, เรียกเนื้อหมูหรือเนื้อไก่ที่ทําให้เป็นฝอยฟู ๆ ว่า หมูหย็อง ไก่หย็อง.

The second meaning is the one I was looking for, "to make into filaments and fibers" and it speaks of "Pork <deleted>", as we have seen it termed in the U.S. Wikipedia has a nice article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rousong . Here is the relevant sentence:

"A very similar product is pork <deleted> (肉脯; pinyin: ròu fǔ), which is less fried and less shredded than rousong, and has a more fibrous texture."

Note that the second Thai definition of หย็อง includes, "ทําให้เป็นฝอยฟู ๆ ". Could the ฟู here be the same as the "<deleted>" in "pork <deleted>"? Forget the gold; give me pork filigree anytime, especially with ข้าวต้มกุ๊ย!

[AjarnPasa]

I have a friend who has been nicknamed หย็องหย็อง by our Thai friends because of his loose afro-ish kind of hairdo. Think Adam Sandler at the beginning of Zohan. Good use of the word IMO

[inthepink]

Thanks for the answer DH. I have four different Thai-English dictionaries and it isn't in any of them. I'm going outside to burn them all now.

By the way, what is the RID?

[DavidHouston]

Thanks for the answer DH. I have four different Thai-English dictionaries and it isn't in any of them. I'm going outside to burn them all now.

By the way, what is the RID?

The Royal Institute Dictionary, available free on-line at http://rirs3.royin.go.th/dictionary.asp . Best thing since the very heavy hardcover edition.

[inthepink]

Excellent, thanks very much.

[GarryP]

I just asked my son and he said it had no meaning. It was used alliteratively. He gave me a number of examples but I have know idea how to write what he said so you will just have to take my word for it.

[kikenyoy]

Thanks for the answer DH. I have four different Thai-English dictionaries and it isn't in any of them. I'm going outside to burn them all now.

By the way, what is the RID?

The Royal Institute Dictionary, available free on-line at http://rirs3.royin.g.../dictionary.asp . Best thing since the very heavy hardcover edition.

I just clicked on the link and got a "reported attack site" warning and when I clicked to find out why, it said:

What happened when Google visited this site?

Of the 605 pages we tested on the site over the past 90 days, 115 page(s) resulted in malicious software being downloaded and installed without user consent. The last time Google visited this site was on 2010-07-17, and the last time suspicious content was found on this site was on 2010-07-17.

Maybe those paper dictionaries aren't so bad, inthepink!

[inthepink]

Actually, being a bit old-fashioned, I prefer books to online resources. According to one site I looked at, the RID 1999 edition (printed in 2003) is available for 600 baht in the shops. That figure sounds a little low but if there are any still on sale I'd like to get hold of a copy.

Edited July 18, 2010 by inthepink

[painai2]

"A New Thai English Dictionary" gives the meaning of "ทองหยอง" as "ทองหมั้น" which is defined as betrothal gold (from the bridegroom's to the bride's family); bride price. Does this help?

[SoftWater]

​I rather like Lexitron's sample sentence:

ยายคิดว่าจันทราเป็นสาวเป็นนาง ควรจะมีทองหยองติดตัวบ้าง

Grandma thinks the moon is rather like a young woman in need of some .....................

But what goes in the blank?

ornamental gold / gold ornament / gold jewellery / or just 'gold' ?

[DavidHouston]

ยายคิดว่าจันทราเป็นสาวเป็นนาง ควรจะมีทองหยองติดตัวบ้าง

"Grandma thinks that Jantra is old enough already; she should wear some nice gold jewelry."

"Grandma believes that Jantra has become a young woman already (she is no longer a child); therefore, she should have some gold jewelry to wear."

etc. Or, taking Painai2's suggestion into consideration, it could mean,

"Grandma thinks that Jantra is old enough already; she should get married."

What do you think?

​I rather like Lexitron's sample sentence:

ยายคิดว่าจันทราเป็นสาวเป็นนาง ควรจะมีทองหยองติดตัวบ้าง

Grandma thinks the moon is rather like a young woman in need of some .....................

But what goes in the blank?

ornamental gold / gold ornament / gold jewellery / or just 'gold' ?

Edited July 18, 2010 by DavidHouston

[SoftWater]

Thanks David. I overlooked the possibility that จันทรา is functioning as a personal name. Lexitorn has

จันทรา

[N] moon S.ดวงเดือน, พระจันทร์, ดวงจันทร์, เดือน, จันทร์ A.สุริยา, ดวงอาทิตย์

(NECTEC Lexitron 2 TH-EN)

For either of your two interpretations to be possible, mustn't there be a แล้ว added to the end of the first clause (and even possibly a ก็ before the second)?

Cheers

Sw

[DavidHouston]

Softwater. I believe that you are correct. If the writer intended for the two disjunctive declarative sentences to be a "cause" and "effect" construction, then he should have added แล้ว and ก็. Otherwise the two sentences may be linked in the readers mind only due to a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. On the other hand, in common ภาษาปาก it might be that speakers do not always include all the necessary connection words.

Also, one might ask whether the use of the two connection words you cite creates a stronger connective bond between the two clauses than what might be indicated if the words are not used.

Perhaps the two clauses are not related at all and a fresh interpretation of the Lexitron example is in order.

Thanks for providing your perspective.

[SoftWater]

I'm not sure if I'm more or less confused now...

My fumblings in Thai are predicated on a huge amount of guesswork and hampered by insufficient experience, so if you don't know I'm sure I don't.

However, in my limited understanding and experience, Thais are rarely slack with the use of แล้ว, functioning as it does as a key tense marker in the absence of inflected verbs. I would agree that ก็ would not be necessary in your translations, and possible indicate a stronger causal connection than intended, but I don't see how the speaker could be referring to a particular girl coming of age in the absence of แล้ว (my not being able to see it, of course, having no bearing whatsoever on whether it is the case or not).

That said, as has been pointed out before, Lexitron's examples may be somewhat aritificial, and not meant to stand the rigours of analysis that we often attempt in our quest to understand the mechanics of the language.

Assuming my version is wrong, any advice on why it's wrong/ how to tell its wrong?

Cheers

Sw

[GarryP]

ยายคิดว่าจันทราเป็นสาวเป็นนาง ควรจะมีทองหยองติดตัวบ้าง

Grandmother thinks that Jantra is (now) a young lady. She should have some gold of her own.

ติดตัว does not necessarily mean wear. It usually indicates "in posssession of", as in "Do you have any money on you?" or "Have you got any Money on you?"

[SoftWater]

I believe David - as usual - had it about right to start with. A Thai colleague suggests

"Grandma thinks that Jantira, being a young woman, should wear some gold."

My friend suggests the implication of Granny's remark could be that this would help Jantira to look respectable and attract suitors. She also thinks that the sentence may be taken from some classical literature, lyric or poem (native speaker's instinct for register, I guess). Perhaps it's not something you're going to hear in the shops down in Yaowarat....

Regarding ทองหยอง, her view is that it generally means 'small pieces of gold'. It can, but need not, be in the context of สินสอด.

Edited July 21, 2010 by SoftWater