Suspiciously Cheap Grey Imports

[josephbloggs]

Hi guys,

I'm in the market for a new Audi TT. Buying from Audi they are over 4 million. But I was speaking to the guy at F1 Auto at the motor show at Impact on Saturday and he is selling them - brand new with S-Line spec, quattro 4WD and an ABT upgrade - for 2.99 million. He was obviously unwilling to explain how it could be so cheap. He also has A6 3.0 TDIs for 2.99m, and a brand new Cayenne Hybrid is 5.99 million. Ridiculously cheap prices (for Thailand). He offers a 1-year warranty.

Is this legit or are there some dodgy mis-declared import shenanigans going on? F1 Auto seems to be a big company with a large flashy showroom - it's not some tinpot shed.

Is a buyer likely to run into any trouble some time down the line or is there nothing to worry about? You know what they say - if something sounds too good to be true....

Any input appreciated.

[powderpuff]

"Is a buyer likely to run into any trouble some time down the line?"

YES

[josephbloggs]

"Is a buyer likely to run into any trouble some time down the line?"

YES

Hi Powderpuff,

Could you elaborate on that please?

[aussiebebe]

"Is a buyer likely to run into any trouble some time down the line?"

YES

Hi Powderpuff,

Could you elaborate on that please?

I think they mean after the first year. Audi's come with 3,4 or 5 year warranties (customer pays) so while the imports appear cheaper, they may not be brand-new and the price savings might reflect how valuable the official warranties are; replacement parts are subject to import tax also.

[filingaccount]

He was obviously unwilling to explain how it could be so cheap.

The only reason it can be that cheap without being stolen goods is that the guy didn't pay tax on the cars (eg. smuggled).

What could happen down the line is when you go to register the vehicle, the revenue department will ask you for additional (or all) tax.

The seller will make away like a bandit as the "tax" you should pay through him is no more than pure profit.

Another scenario could be that the cars he is selling are rejects from the manufacturer and he managed to get his hands on them under the manufacturers impression he would salvage parts, then destroy the vehicle on their behalf (less likely scenario though).

The risk is that he'll make sales for the next 9 months or so, and then his business is mysteriously gone with perhaps only a cell phone number to call.

Maybe note down all serial numbers of the car, double check with customs or other relevant authority before purchase.

Normally, when someone gives you a deal cloak & dagger style, you most likely are being taken for a ride.

But then again, he might be legit. You could ask when he started selling these cheap cars and who bought them. Ask to see registration papers that have gone through 100%.

Check, check and then double check everything.

Edit: I forgot about the obvious warranty repairs. Who does them? Where? Do you get full warranty from the brand locally?

Edited July 26, 2010 by filingaccount

[josephbloggs]

He was obviously unwilling to explain how it could be so cheap.

The only reason it can be that cheap without being stolen goods is that the guy didn't pay tax on the cars (eg. smuggled).

What could happen down the line is when you go to register the vehicle, the revenue department will ask you for additional (or all) tax.

The seller will make away like a bandit as the "tax" you should pay through him is no more than pure profit.

Another scenario could be that the cars he is selling are rejects from the manufacturer and he managed to get his hands on them under the manufacturers impression he would salvage parts, then destroy the vehicle on their behalf (less likely scenario though).

The risk is that he'll make sales for the next 9 months or so, and then his business is mysteriously gone with perhaps only a cell phone number to call.

Maybe note down all serial numbers of the car, double check with customs or other relevant authority before purchase.

Normally, when someone gives you a deal cloak & dagger style, you most likely are being taken for a ride.

But then again, he might be legit. You could ask when he started selling these cheap cars and who bought them. Ask to see registration papers that have gone through 100%.

Check, check and then double check everything.

Edit: I forgot about the obvious warranty repairs. Who does them? Where? Do you get full warranty from the brand locally?

Thanks for the replies so far everyone.

I should point out that the cloak and dagger aspect of it isn't quite so cloak and daggery when you consider he had a huge stand at this well organised and prestigious car show, with a wide selection of cars on display all with prices prominently displayed. If he was doing anything illegal wouldn't this be a bit brazen? (Yes I know this is Thailand, but even so...)

Golf GTIs, VW Beetles (1.89 million baht - cheap!), Audis, Mercs, Porsches of various kinds, Ferrari F430, all out in the open with the prices stuck on them, and all of them significantly cheaper than the official cars. He said something about importing them directly himself and there being no middleman therefore he can sell cheaper, but a million baht (or more) cheaper? Hmmmm.

Edit: He said they came with a full warranty for one year but I don't know any more detail than that (ie. is it valid at the dealers? Does he service them at his showroom?)

Edited July 26, 2010 by josephbloggs

[MoonRiverOasis]

He said something about importing them directly himself and there being no middleman therefore he can sell cheaper, but a million baht (or more) cheaper? Hmmmm.

Edit: He said they came with a full warranty for one year but I don't know any more detail than that (ie. is it valid at the dealers? Does he service them at his showroom?)

While I can't vouch for the guy, here's a couple of facts that might back up what he's saying:

1. A new vehicle warranty is really just an insurance policy in practice. 1 year has to be cheaper than 3 years.

2. The makes mentioned have incredibly low sales volumes in Thailand (e.g. Audi sold a grand total of 74 - yes, seventy four - cars in Thailand in all of 2009), so between maintaining a flash dealer network, advertising, putting on car shows, paying staff and providing enough profit to line the pockets of a few execs, there needs to be a substantial margin in each sale.

Sounds right to me..

Edited July 26, 2010 by MoonRiverOasis

[Crash999]

Golf GTIs, VW Beetles (1.89 million baht - cheap!), Audis, Mercs, Porsches of various kinds, Ferrari F430, all out in the open with the prices stuck on them, and all of them significantly cheaper than the official cars. He said something about importing them directly himself and there being no middleman therefore he can sell cheaper, but a million baht (or more) cheaper? Hmmmm.

I was at the show as well, checking out the Lotuses (Lotii?) which are tempting. Was also looking at TTs and SLKs.

Anyhoo, a few things to bear in mind. F1 is a big dealer and they advertise on one2car a lot- in fact I can see those two Audis you mention on there and they are about 500-600k under what others are advertising, which of course is a bit inflated from the real sale price. I'm shopping for cars now and have been doing some price comparisons- their other cars, for example the Mini, is in line with market prices so not sure what's going on with those TTSs. A few things to check are:

- whether or not the car really is a 2010 model. It may be a 2009 that has been registered in 2010

- whether or not the car is actually a TTS or is a rebadged TT

- whether the title is for a 2010 Audi TTS or another car (this is a problem with many Mitsu Evos)

Not sure if you're in a position to finance the deal, but if you are then the financing company will check out everything for you as they themselves don't want to take a car onto their books where the car's value has been exaggerated.

[josephbloggs]

Golf GTIs, VW Beetles (1.89 million baht - cheap!), Audis, Mercs, Porsches of various kinds, Ferrari F430, all out in the open with the prices stuck on them, and all of them significantly cheaper than the official cars. He said something about importing them directly himself and there being no middleman therefore he can sell cheaper, but a million baht (or more) cheaper? Hmmmm.

I was at the show as well, checking out the Lotuses (Lotii?) which are tempting. Was also looking at TTs and SLKs.

Anyhoo, a few things to bear in mind. F1 is a big dealer and they advertise on one2car a lot- in fact I can see those two Audis you mention on there and they are about 500-600k under what others are advertising, which of course is a bit inflated from the real sale price. I'm shopping for cars now and have been doing some price comparisons- their other cars, for example the Mini, is in line with market prices so not sure what's going on with those TTSs. A few things to check are:

- whether or not the car really is a 2010 model. It may be a 2009 that has been registered in 2010

- whether or not the car is actually a TTS or is a rebadged TT

- whether the title is for a 2010 Audi TTS or another car (this is a problem with many Mitsu Evos)

Not sure if you're in a position to finance the deal, but if you are then the financing company will check out everything for you as they themselves don't want to take a car onto their books where the car's value has been exaggerated.

Hi Crash,

That's a good point about checking the model year. It could well be a 2009 model - it's still a "new" car technically. Will look into that.

Maybe I wasn't too clear but the model he's offering me is a TT, not a TTS, so there's no trickery going on there. (He does offer the TTS as well but that is 3.5 million - elsewhere in the show I saw a TTS for 3.9m. Officially I think it's over 5 million.) So, to reiterate, it's a TT but with the S-Line trim (which is maybe where I wasn't clear), quattro 4WD rather than the base level FWD, and it has an ABT power upgrade to 260hp.

Again that's a good point about the title. I'm all too aware of the Evo comparison because I looked at getting one of those a few years ago (from Wattana cars on Petchaburi Road) but ran a mile when I found out it would be registered as a normal Lancer, plus he only offered a one-month warranty. Instead I bought an official Subaru WRX.

He did mention finance options from a 3rd party finance company at 2.25% APR (can't remember the name of the finance company but I remember he said it was attached to Siam Commercial Bank), so like you say surely they wouldn't get involved it there was anything fishy??

Hmmmmm.

Again - as you also saw yourself - he was displaying all this out in the open at a major show. If there was anything obviously illegal then surely all Audi, or Mercedes or whoever would do would be to simply send someone to the show, note the serial number while looking under the bonnet and then report him to the authorities for illegally making a false customs declaration.

[thaicbr]

One thing to consider. Mercedes and Bmw no longer honour warranties on any car bought from outside of the official sales channel here in Thailand. I'm not sure about Audi, so best to check. Also fuel quality is not so good here in Thailand, I believe that most of the Euro makes retune the Cars to take this into account.

If It's loads cheaper than even the other grey importers then i would check EVERY detail. You do not want to be waiting months for your white plates, especially with the new rules on red plates. Could get expensive.

Happily or unhappily, depends on ya point of view i will not be botherd by this problem. As i have no money:D Enjoy ya new car.

[MikeyIdea]

I'd be very careful. Do not pay more than you easily can afford to lose before you see YOUR name as owner in the book...

Don't think that you're safe because the company is big or famous. Even the forum sponsor Expat Motors has several law suits against them for ripp-offs, search TV

[Crash999]

That's a good point about checking the model year. It could well be a 2009 model - it's still a "new" car technically. Will look into that.

Maybe I wasn't too clear but the model he's offering me is a TT, not a TTS, so there's no trickery going on there. (He does offer the TTS as well but that is 3.5 million - elsewhere in the show I saw a TTS for 3.9m. Officially I think it's over 5 million.) So, to reiterate, it's a TT but with the S-Line trim (which is maybe where I wasn't clear), quattro 4WD rather than the base level FWD, and it has an ABT power upgrade to 260hp.

Again that's a good point about the title. I'm all too aware of the Evo comparison because I looked at getting one of those a few years ago (from Wattana cars on Petchaburi Road) but ran a mile when I found out it would be registered as a normal Lancer, plus he only offered a one-month warranty. Instead I bought an official Subaru WRX.

He did mention finance options from a 3rd party finance company at 2.25% APR (can't remember the name of the finance company but I remember he said it was attached to Siam Commercial Bank), so like you say surely they wouldn't get involved it there was anything fishy??

Hmmmmm.

Again - as you also saw yourself - he was displaying all this out in the open at a major show. If there was anything obviously illegal then surely all Audi, or Mercedes or whoever would do would be to simply send someone to the show, note the serial number while looking under the bonnet and then report him to the authorities for illegally making a false customs declaration.

Ahhh ok it's a TT with S-trim. In such case the price is actually in line (or a bit lower) than what other folks are offering. There's a 2010 black one at Khunying advertised for 2.99m, a bronze one from Set Point at 3.18m, and a black one from Pahonyotin Smart Car for 3.29m. I didn't take a look at the trim levels to see what the differences are. It's possible they could be imported 2009 cars that haven't yet been registered, so they are advertised as 'new car' (2010).

F1 is advertising their cars together with the TTS models online so it's a bit misleading.

The finance company will do an assessment on the car to check its value and determine how much they are willing to finance. They check the title and everything carefully as they don't want to be scammed (give a loan at too high a value and the borrower defaults immediately, taking off with the difference).

If you like the car and are thinking about buying in cash, why not have a lawyer check everything out? I know it doesn't feel great to spend a fair chunk of money to have someone look over docs for an hour, but the cost of doing so compared with the cost of purchase becomes insignificant.