How To Hookup My Distribution Box Best

[Beardog]

I was wondering what the best way to hookup the consumer panel.

I have a 30-100 service The box is a square d setup w/Schneider breakers.

63 amp main breaker a rcbo 32-32amp

& 20 amp breakers & some 16's. I was going to put the main on the left(given) the rcbo next to the main, the 32's then the 20's & 16's.

I have 8 down lights in the living room down lights in the dining room Ceiling fans in both rooms The living room will have a TV & stereo & a 12,000 btu air conditioner.

A front porch with 4 down lights a ceiling fan .

the lounge area has 2 ceiling fans.and 4 down lights . The bedroom has 4 down lights a 9,000 Btu air conditioner. The master bath has a 32 watt florescent & one vanity light & outlet for the light. The kitchen has a 2 burner 1000 watt inductive counter top stove & an oven , microwave, food processor, blender , toaster & a 7000 watt multipoint water heater to power the kitchen sink,the master bathroom sink, bathtub( which I will rarely use)(except with Ice cubes to chill out!) a washing machine & a refrigerator. The internet room has 4 down lights & a ceiling fan.The 2nd bathroom has a 32 watt florescent light.the carport has one 32 watt florescent light & the front facing has 5 outside lamp post style lights.

All rooms have 3 plug outlets every meter. (I know I am anal about not having to use an extension cord anywhere except the garage area.)

I have 6 outside outlets & 2 more gate lights.

I have left 2 slots in the consumer panel open for security camera & whatever for later.

What goes on the RCBO circuit? That is my main concern.I have submitted posts from TV for the appropriate breakers for most of the electric.

I was going to put the outside outlets-water heater outside lights on the RCBO. Do I have this right or do you guys have a better suggestion on how to set this up. The electric & the windows & security grates & the front & 1 side of the house landscaping are pretty much the last of it.

The boys are going to re hook up the wires with connectors as I found the down lights & a couple other circuits with black tape only.

The 2 lights on the gate outside should be grounded? The contractor said it shouldn't need it but I think it should.

Thanks for the help.On brain overload & can't wait to get this task completed.What started out a 110 SQ. meter house has morphed into a a 176 sq.meter house with another 40 sq. meters of decking & lounge areas.

[bankruatsteve]

I don't have anything better to do at the moment so I can give some general advice but I'm not going to "calculate" your situation...

1. It doesn't really matter where you place the breakers in the CU - except to make sure the wires reach them without binding. Just do what makes sense to you.

2. Your A/C units probably have external compressor and internal blower yah? Each external unit should be on one breaker (in your case the 20a for each one). The internal units can be combined with the socket circuits (also 20a) for the respective rooms. Use the other 20a breakers for socket circuits and don't combine with lighting.

3. I like 2 20/25a circuits for the kitchen (like one each side) and at least 3-4 sockets each one. The oven should have it's own and might need 32a?

4. In my opinion, lighting cirucuits don't need more than 10a breakers/wire but whatever.. so use your 16a breakers for those. I'll probably get heat for this but, I don't bother grounding lighting circuits (except for ceiling fans - I run the ground to those.) I know that's code in a lot of places but ppttbb.

6. So... your RCBO (i take it you just have the one?) I see most of the water heaters these days have internal ELCB (is that right?) so maybe not worry about those. Otherwise, use it for the outside sockets.

BTW: I too like sockets about every 1 m - more the better as far as I'm concerned and hopefully not have to use those blasted extensions.

Cheers.

[Beardog]

Thanks Steve,

I think the 32's are for the oven & one more if I hook up another power hog. I probably could even get away with 2 on that circuit as I don't expect to much cooking in high heat!

The air cons are how you described them. I have not purchased them yet, but the 9000 is already picked out.

[Beardog]

Thanks Steve,

I think the 32's are for the oven & one more if I hook up another power hog. I probably could even get away with 2 on that circuit as I don't expect to much cooking in high heat!

The air cons are how you described them. I have not purchased them yet, but the 9000 is already picked out.

I just remembered I also have a mitsubishi 305 & a 205 well pump 500 watts both together.

[bankruatsteve]

Thanks Steve,

I think the 32's are for the oven & one more if I hook up another power hog. I probably could even get away with 2 on that circuit as I don't expect to much cooking in high heat!

The air cons are how you described them. I have not purchased them yet, but the 9000 is already picked out.

I just remembered I also have a mitsubishi 305 & a 205 well pump 500 watts both together.

So, that's almost 3 amps both together. Having similar to you, I put my pumps on a seperate 20a circuit (with ground) just b/c I had one available but could probably combine with something else if you want.

[electau]

All socket outlets should be RCD protected.

All exterior lights should be RCD protected.

All permanently conected equipment must be earthed.

MEN earthing if permitted. If the main neutral is not bonded to the main earthing conductor you will have to have all circuits RCD protected this includes permanently connected equipment.

Edited July 29, 2010 by electau

[Beardog]

All socket outlets should be RCD protected.

All exterior lights should be RCD protected.

All permanently conected equipment must be earthed.

MEN earthing if permitted. If the main neutral is not bonded to the main earthing conductor you will have to have all circuits RCD protected this includes permanently connected equipment.

Thanks Electau. I didn't know the plug receptacle should be on the rcb side Exclusive of the fridge right?

[bankruatsteve]

Regarding RCD (or whatever) protection at the circuit level: can't argue that is "safe". But, I just don't get it. Proper earthing will take care of most touch voltage. Suggest you train everyone how to reset breakers.

[elkangorito]

Regarding RCD (or whatever) protection at the circuit level: can't argue that is "safe". But, I just don't get it. Proper earthing will take care of most touch voltage. Suggest you train everyone how to reset breakers.

Not necessarily in an IT system & particularly not after the 2nd earth fault. Having an 'earth' with the IT system is only effective if the insulation remains intact & only if one fault occurs.

Also, the added impedance of cable length can affect the operating time of circuit breakers (this is assuming that the earthing system is not IT). This is why maximum cable lengths are prescribed for 'circuit breaker only' protection for non-IT earthing systems.

Even if RCBO's are used, this doesn't stop anyone replacing them with standard circuit breakers.

Since many Thailand installations appear to be IT, using RCBO's is the only choice remaining.

[electau]

Regarding RCD (or whatever) protection at the circuit level: can't argue that is "safe". But, I just don't get it. Proper earthing will take care of most touch voltage. Suggest you train everyone how to reset breakers.

With the MEN earthing system, that is the main neutral is connected to the main earth by a link the impedance of the earthing system must be low enough to trip an MCD in less than 0.4secs.

The earth fault current returns to the source of supply vis the main neutral and the distribution neutral. The current in the main earth can be disregarded.

With an unearthed neutral the earth fault current does not return to the source of supply via the neutral. It returns through the main earth and main earth electrode to the source of supply. The earthing impedance is too high to operate an MCB in the required time of 0.4 secs so RCDs must be used.

An RCD must trip in less than 0.3secs at 30ma and less than 0.04 secs for a 10ma unit.

RCDs must be used on all socket outlets because of the higher risk of the protective earthing conductor failing. (Yes, even on the socket for a refrigerator).

Yes, earthing will remove the effects of small values of touch voltage which in its self is not hazardous but if the touch voltage exceeds 50VAC in normal areas and 25VAC in damp or wet areas automatic disconnection MUST occur. Any voltage over these values is regarded as potentially hazardous.

Most RCDs have been proven to save lives and many deaths by electric shock could have been prevented the use of one.

It would also be recomended that RCDs be installed on permanently connected equipment in wet or damp areas in an electrical installation.

Edited July 29, 2010 by electau

[bankruatsteve]

Most RCDs have been proven to save lives and many deaths by electric shock could have been prevented the use of one.

Ooh - this could be fun. Please show links or whatever showing the "proof". Not that RCD's do what you said (I totally accept that) but the "proof" that they have saved lives which otherwise would have been death without one.

Edited July 30, 2010 by bankruatsteve

[bankruatsteve]

Regarding RCD (or whatever) protection at the circuit level: can't argue that is "safe". But, I just don't get it. Proper earthing will take care of most touch voltage. Suggest you train everyone how to reset breakers.

Not necessarily in an IT system & particularly not after the 2nd earth fault. Having an 'earth' with the IT system is only effective if the insulation remains intact & only if one fault occurs.

Also, the added impedance of cable length can affect the operating time of circuit breakers (this is assuming that the earthing system is not IT). This is why maximum cable lengths are prescribed for 'circuit breaker only' protection for non-IT earthing systems.

Even if RCBO's are used, this doesn't stop anyone replacing them with standard circuit breakers.

Since many Thailand installations appear to be IT, using RCBO's is the only choice remaining.

Can you explain what difference it makes to CU grounding what system is used? Thanks.

[electau]

And here is your answer.

In a survey of Australian electrical fatalities which occurred between 1983 and 1987, it was found that 43% (30 per year) were caused by low voltage accidents in and around the home.

Of the domestic fatalities, 89% may have been prevented had an RCD been installed.

Accidents which these devices could not prevent included those involving overhead and underground services, consumers mains and certain switchboard wiring.

Furthermore,78% of the domestic fatalities could have been prevented by RCD protection of power circuits supplying socket outlets alone.

This illustrates that the most significant causes of accidents arise from failure of (or interference with) electrical appliances, flex cords, extension leads, socket outlets and circuit wiring.

From 1992 RCDs were made mandatory in all new domestic installations.

(Source. Qld Govt and Electrical Industry Safety Advisory Committee).

Edited July 31, 2010 by electau

[bankruatsteve]

So the survey says...

Whatever. BTW - I couldn't find any stats googling the "Qld Govt and Electrical Industry Safety Advisory Committee". Maybe I didn't dig deep enough.

Anyway, OZ standards are OZ standards so don't assume they are applicable everywhere else.

For me, the expense vs. "protection" and nuisance for RCD circuits in non-hazardas areas just doesn't make sense. That's all.

[stgrhe]

Anyway, OZ standards are OZ standards so don't assume they are applicable everywhere else.

The Australian and New Zealand standards are the same and in fact based on the IEC but adapted for a hotter and more humid environment. Hence, it is probably the best suited standard to follow here in Thailand given that their really is no Thai standard on electrical safety.

I am not an Aussie but one has better listen to their electrical engineers when they submit their advices as they know what they are talking about. Ignorance leads nowhere.

[Beardog]

Thanks to all of you that provided me with the technical help. The electrical job is finishing today & everything that needed connectors were re-done & the job looks super. It is as good as any job in the west. Unlike the first camp house we built this house has a very clean distribution box. The last house had wires with black tape everywhere in the box. this one has no mumbo jumbo & is very professionally done.

If any of you that have contributed to helping me including on previous posts if you ever find your way to Bang Saray area feel free to pop on over for a few bevies!

Once again thanks for the help.You to Crossy, your help throughout the years has been very beneficial! Cheers & thanks for all the insight you have given me & allowing me a chance to learn a lot more about electric.

Barry & Alisa

Edited August 1, 2010 by Beardog

[elkangorito]

I live very close to you Barry.

[electau]

So the survey says...

Whatever. BTW - I couldn't find any stats googling the "Qld Govt and Electrical Industry Safety Advisory Committee". Maybe I didn't dig deep enough.

Anyway, OZ standards are OZ standards so don't assume they are applicable everywhere else.

For me, the expense vs. "protection" and nuisance for RCD circuits in non-hazardas areas just doesn't make sense. That's all.

You could try this site for a start.

http://www.westernpower.com.au/subContent/aboutUs/mediaCentre/mediaReleases/RCDs_will_save_lives.html

And it is not just deaths from electric shock, there are those who are hospitalised as a result of electric shock.

The result of electric shock can be cardiac arrest, and the survival rate is about 1% using CPR and about 15% using CPR and a defibrillator.

And the reason for installing RCDs in domestic installations was to minimise the deaths and serious injuries that had occurred in the past.

And because of non effective earthing or lack of earthing in most Thai electrical installations RCDs should be employed.

　

　

[Beardog]

Well than when do you want to come over for some beverages or lunch?

We should be pretty much done with the house project in a couple weeks after we get fill dirt lawn & the driveway in. Thanks again for your help in electrics! God knows I need it. It is my weakest suit in building!But I have sure been learning a lot.To bad when I was 20 I didn't train to be a sparky instead of a mechanic.Pay is quite a bit better & less greasy!

Barry

[powderpuff]

I have a similar set-up to you. I have a 30/100 meter & I think 16 sq mm wires into the house.

In my load center I have 2 breaker boxes with 63 amp mains in each one.

The load center is protected by a 100 amp Mitshubihi Breaker, Safety-Cut & some blade fuses which prevent the box being opened while "alive"

Pic below. All my aircons are connected to the LH breaker box. My hi-fi is on a discreet circuit, Kitchen, cook stove, water heater all have their own circuits.

[powderpuff]

Hey Beardog. Here is a picture of it, all closed up.

Basically the big black box top center is a blade fuse interlock that prevents the unit being opened "live"

Then L N pass through that 100 amp Mitshibushi breaker, the right hand breaker box (63 amp main) is protected by the 100 amp Saf-T-Cut.

The RH breaker box (63 amp main) is used for air cons.

You can see the electrician even included the door bell chime.

This CU was built by a local electrical supply store. Take a week or 10 days to fab up.

Edited August 13, 2010 by powderpuff

[Beardog]

Hey Beardog. Here is a picture of it, all closed up.

Basically the big black box top center is a blade fuse interlock that prevents the unit being opened "live"

Then L N pass through that 100 amp Mitshibushi breaker, the right hand breaker box (63 amp main) is protected by the 100 amp Saf-T-Cut.

The RH breaker box (63 amp main) is used for air cons.

You can see the electrician even included the door bell chime.

This CU was built by a local electrical supply store. Take a week or 10 days to fab up.

Nice setup you have. We went with a 16 breaker box & have 5 unused breakers.

We just knocked down the old camp house & I now have another 4 breaker + the 63 amp main

for the pump house. Not that I need it..yet!

Barry

[mickey1973]

Not sure what the Thai regulations are, or if they have any, but in the u.k i would tend to run a single supply from the non protected side of the rcd, to feed a single socket outlet to be dedicated and marked up as use for fridge freezer only, as to avoid food going off if nuiscance tripping occurs when you are out of the house. In the uk rcd's - rcbo's and rccb's providing 30 m/a protection or less must disconnect in under 200 milliseconds on a test with 30m/a induced in the circuit and under 40 milliseconds with 150 (x5 test) milliamps induced in the circuit. Things not protected by the earth leakage device must have a lower impedance reading at the end of the circuit than that required as the maximum set by the mcb, for example, a c type 32 ampere mcb calculation would be 32 ampere x 10 = 320 then divide 230(uk voltage) by 320 which gives you a maximum earth loop impedance of 0.72 ohms. Just make sure you have the cables sized corretly for the current rated overload. Hope this helps

Edited August 14, 2010 by mickey1973