Buddhism And Women

[christiaan]

I am interested in looking at the position of the woman in relation to Buddhisme.

Since, in normal situation, so in general, reincarnating also means changing in gender, leading to a life being a man folowing up by a life being a woman, I wonder what in essence is the difference.

What is the difference between a male Buddhist and a female Buddhist?

As humans we come from the spiritual world and untill a short time before birth there is no gender situation.

The gender situation comes to a materialization when a part of the spiritual energy of the spiritual entity does materialise in a certain gender while the other part stays spiritual.

This is apparent in women having sexual organs turned inside with a psyche turned outside (woman can be hysterically), while men are having their sexual organs turned outside and their psyche turned inside (men can be very depressed).

But there are more observations to substantiate this view.

So, being from the same spiritual world, the world of absolute awareness, I wonder why there is this difference between male munks and female munks,( in this contribution restricted to the Thai situation)?

As Buddha emphasized, every human , male and woman can come to enlightment.

But even without Buddha telling so, it is obvious male and woman can both come to enlightment.

[laasmooi]

" As humans we come from the spiritual world and untill a short time before birth there is no gender situation.

The gender situation comes to a materialization when a part of the spiritual energy of the spiritual entity does materialise in a certain gender while the other part stays spiritual. "

Hi Christiaan, you never learned as a young boy at school that the gender is only determined by the sperm XX or XY chromosome at the time of conception? So definitely not "a short time before birth".

And -for my better understanding- can you give me a definition of your "spiritual world", "spiritual energy" and "spiritual entity"?

And -again for my better understanding- what specific part of "the spiritual energy of the spiritual entity does materialise"?

[christiaan]

Hello Laasmooi

Thank you very much for your making me aware of the mistake in writing.

I was too fast and not aware I typed 'birth' where it had to be ' conception'.

I notice that the forum makes me speed up answering allthough it almost would be better to take some more time for doing so.

So I noticed I made some more of this mistakes sometimes.

I have learned many things at school but they did not learn to make me think independently, that is something I learned to do myself.

This is what Buddha tried to teach to humanity.

Then, at those days , I did not liked the way they tried to indoctrinate me with theories, especially when I discovered more and more my teachers also just reproduced what they had 'learned'. No independent thinking.

So thinking about conception and becoming male or woman:

Some people will argue that it still makes no difference, conception or birth: the chromosomes decide if you will become man or woman.

But, when you can overcome the 'teachings ' at school and start to observate and think independently, you will discover that after conception the first thing that happens in the human egcell after the sperm entered it, is: complete chaos.

You will not find this knowledge in all publications, people choose to tell what they can comprehend, but a real scientific description of the observation will tell you.

Scientists still do not know what is happening inside this absolute chaos after the sperm enters the egg but as far as I know they , at that part of cell development, cannot find anything like chromosomes.

They in fact cannot find anything else as complete chaos.

And, only after complete chaos , something completely new can come to existence and cell division starts, and every human in big steps lives the complete evolution of mankind again, starting in the uterus of a woman.

The chromosomes in a human constitution do not decide if you had to become a man or a woman, they show, just like the genitals, you are a man or a woman.

They are all part of the manifestation.

The spiritual world is the world of the spirtual beings and it is a very diverse world like the material world is a diverse world.

The spiritual world can not be seen or experienced with our material senses, but it can by awareness because awareness is the quality of the spiritual world.

Spiritual energy is non material energy.

Spiritual energy is something a person can feel inside when for instance he or she is in meditation, this cannot be experienced by material senses but it also can be experienced by awareness.

Awareness itself is spiritual energy.

The part that you see in a material existence is the part that materialises.

In minerals it is the form quality that materialise.

In plants it is form and movement (life) quality

In animals it is form, movement(life), and astral quality

In humans it is form, movement(life), astral and spiritual quality.

So the entity of a mineral only materialises for a small 'part'.

The entities of plants do more and animals, especially the higher animals do a lot more.

But humans almost materialise completely.

In future we will be present on the future earth with our complete spirit.

But for this we have to develop our awareness.

And I like to become more aware about he positions of women in relation to Buddhisme, as I wrote before.

Thank you very much for your questions.

[fabianfred]

In Theravada Buddhism there is no distinction between the sexes when they are lay followers...both can attain to Arahant and Nirvana.

Here in Thailand my teacher who is an Abbot and believed to be Arahant says that the karma from breaking the third precept can have the result of going to hel_l, and then from there being reborn as katoey for many lives, after which female for many lives, before being born as male. Of course this pattern may be followed in some cases, but not all, since we are all unique due to the differing karma we have accumulated over countless lives in Samsara.

[christiaan]

Thank you fabianfred

How about the situation when the woman becomes nun?

I think you write ; breaking the third precept can have the result of going to hel_l, ...what is the relation then to be born as Katoey for many lifes and after this to be born as a woman for many lifes?

Is this a 'punishment' ? Is it a punishment to be born as a Katoey and to be born as a female, or ...when it is not a punishment, what is the life as a Katoey and as a female offers as an opportunity to work at your Karma a (punished) human could not do as a man?

Allthough being a Katoey is not specific Thai, there are in fact many Katoey in Thailand.

Does the absence of Katoey or at least the significant low number of Katoey in the west show there is little breaking of the third precept in the West?

Or, why do many as Katoey incarnated humans live in quantity in Thailand?

The situation of woman and man also seems to be quite balanced in most of the cultures, the number of woman born to the number of male born is most of the time about the same. Even after the lost of many male lifes - due to war -there seems to be compensating birth numbers of male. With regard to this China has become unbalanced since they in fact 'killed' many female born children in their modern history.

But in general balance seems to be an important phenomenon in the birth of male and female.

I do not see this in relation to breaking precepts.

[christiaan]

it is odd to see what happens when typing the word hel_l and see how it ends up in the forum text, hel_l , hel_l

[fabianfred]

Remember that the workings of the law of karma are unknowable to those but Buddhas. We can only get a rough understanding of the basic framework, not the fine details.

Karma has interest, so if the main part of the suffering was done in hel_l then when the being returns to the human realm there is still interest to be paid. Often in the form mentioned. But this is not to imply that all women or katoeys are being punished for having broken the third precept.

[phetaroi]

In Theravada Buddhism there is no distinction between the sexes when they are lay followers...both can attain to Arahant and Nirvana.

Here in Thailand my teacher who is an Abbot and believed to be Arahant says that the karma from breaking the third precept can have the result of going to hel_l, and then from there being reborn as katoey for many lives, after which female for many lives, before being born as male. Of course this pattern may be followed in some cases, but not all, since we are all unique due to the differing karma we have accumulated over countless lives in Samsara.

First it appears that you are saying it's a progression from the lower form of human life (katoey) to a higher form of human life (female) to the highest form of human life (male).

At that point you also appear to imply that -- considering the number of katoey in Bangkok and Thailand -- that an awfully high number of people break the third precept.

Oh, but then in a later post you sort of cross that all out and say that, "the workings of the law of karma are unknowable" to you because you are not a Buddha.

So, how about a third post where you clearly explain your view of karma so that we can understand your clarified position?

I ask this because I think karma is one of the most interesting and central points of Buddhism, and also one of the points that is most confusing and often appears to be inherently unfair.

Edited July 30, 2010 by phetaroi

[fabianfred]

In my first post I wrote... "the karma from breaking the third precept can have the result of going to hel_l, and then..."

Only a Buddha can know all the fine details....such as why this being took rebirth as a dog...and that as a Butterfly..etc.

I do repeat often the teachings of Luang Phor Jaran as the laws of karma and retribution are a speciality of his, besides the practice of Vipassana.

I would say the law of karma is the most important, and interesting aspect of Theravada, since it is the cause and explanation for most things. It is completely fair and just and incorrupt IMHO. If we seeit as being unjust then that is probably because of our misunderstanding or lack of knowledge about the situation.

Since sex is a very big thing in many peoples lives I would guess that the third precept is broken pretty often.

[rockyysdt]

In Theravada Buddhism there is no distinction between the sexes when they are lay followers...both can attain to Arahant and Nirvana.

Here in Thailand my teacher who is an Abbot and believed to be Arahant says that the karma from breaking the third precept can have the result of going to hel_l, and then from there being reborn as katoey for many lives, after which female for many lives, before being born as male. Of course this pattern may be followed in some cases, but not all, since we are all unique due to the differing karma we have accumulated over countless lives in Samsara.

Hi Fred.

You've indicated that your Abbots view on karma is that the order of ascendancy after breaking the third precept (sexual misconduct) is to go to hel_l, then rebirth as a katoey, then rebirth as a female, then eventually re birth as male which suggests that homosexuals & women are of a lower order or experience greater suffering than males.

Is this your belief?

Is being being re born as a female a method of karmic punishment?

Edited July 30, 2010 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

My teacher states that this can be the sequence of rebirths as a consequence of breaking the third..... and sometimes before rebirth in the human realm there are rebirths in the animal realms...perhaps as a bull which is castrated for many lives...or a monkey which has its testicles ripped off by the jealous pack leader...etc. etc.

I do not judge whether he is right or wrong......after all he is the Arahant.

The punishments seem a tad severe for the crime....but then a man who cheats on his wife can cause an immense amount of suffering for her and the entire family..... and we would not feel compassion easily for those who rape and abuse children and force them into the sex trade.

Obviously not all female rebirth canbe judged to be a punishment, but how can we know since we are unable to see a beings past karma....something which LP Jaran is able to do.

There are females in the six heaven realms too....(quite beautiful ones too I believe)...since males stay at the state of a 20 year old and females at the state of a 15 year old their entire lives there.

[rockyysdt]

My teacher states that this can be the sequence of rebirths as a consequence of breaking the third..... and sometimes before rebirth in the human realm there are rebirths in the animal realms...perhaps as a bull which is castrated for many lives...or a monkey which has its testicles ripped off by the jealous pack leader...etc. etc.

I do not judge whether he is right or wrong......after all he is the Arahant.

The punishments seem a tad severe for the crime....but then a man who cheats on his wife can cause an immense amount of suffering for her and the entire family..... and we would not feel compassion easily for those who rape and abuse children and force them into the sex trade.

Obviously not all female rebirth canbe judged to be a punishment, but how can we know since we are unable to see a beings past karma....something which LP Jaran is able to do.

There are females in the six heaven realms too....(quite beautiful ones too I believe)...since males stay at the state of a 20 year old and females at the state of a 15 year old their entire lives there.

The reason why I asked Fred was that by specifically singling out the punishment in order, "hel_l, then kateoy, then woman, then man" that this appears to your Abbot as the norm of the consequence of breaking the third precept otherwise he wouldn't have been so specific.

Is it his view that women & homosexuals are of a lower order than men & these states naturally bring about a higher degree of suffering compared to men?

This also brings about subtleties of sexual misconduct.

What if the wife never discovers cheating, or she approves of such behavior? If she experiences no suffering does such misconduct still bring about punishment?

Edited July 30, 2010 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

I would personally say that the punishment would fit the amount of suffering caused, and also depend upon the spiritual advancement of the victim (evil done to an ariya brings far more and quicker result than the same to a normal being).

A tiger kills deer in the forest to eat..... but I would say that the karmic result would be less than if a jungle dwelling man kills the deer to eat, since he has more choices and can know right from wrong.....and a city dweller who goes hunting for sport would get more karma for the same act...he can go shopping in Tesco for his meat.

The workings of karma is interesting but a mystery to us.

Women experience sufferings which men do not...and are often more patient and determined in their spiritual practice as a result.

[christiaan]

fabianfred

To my knowledge it is not too difficult to know about Karma and reincarnation.

It is not only not too difficult and nowadays not only reserved for enlighted spirits, in not too long time , probably atmost a couple of hundred years, many people will start to remember their earlier live(s).

This is the outcome of development of personal awareness within humans on earth.

There are actually quite a number of people who know about their former life(s) at the moment

The next phase of awareness in human develoment is: becoming aware of your Karma.

At that time people who will not know about their Karma, becos they were not interested about this before, will suffer very much.

They will not understand the reasons for the problems and ther suffering in their lifeswhile at the same time having great desire to learn to know about the causes.

They will be as people looking desperately for an object they need, never opening the room where they can find it because they do not know about the existence of this room.

I myself would never accept teachings of any teacher when I cannot independently research the teachings with my mind, when I cannot comprehend these teachings with my awareness, and when I cannot find any mirroring of these spiritual facts into material manifestations.

When a teacher tells it can be a punishment to be a katoey for many lifes and/or a woman for many lifes, but this is not telling being a katoey or a female always is a punishment, it does not help to understand this in any way.

Becos with such a broad explanation it would be possible breaking the third precept could also result in being a male by birth as a punishment for even more lifes in a sequence as being a woman, only your teacher did not tell you so.

So I wonder if your teacher, fabianfred, exclude male incarnations as a consequence for breaking the third precept,.... for this would show that where it could be a punishment to be a Katoey and/or a female for many lifes as still having to pay interest after hel_l in some cases, it never is a punishment to be born as a male ?

In his 'teachings' my teacher continuously emphasised his 'teachings' are meant to awaken the independent thinking of human individuals.

All the time he told in his talks :

"do not just accept what I am telling but investigate yourself"

and:

"Do not teach about things you do not understand or cannot comprehend".

and;

"What I tell is not something you have to or must believe ".

I would say the law of Karma is atmost important , now and even more in near future.

One of the biggest changes in the western world is the change in awareness with regard to Karma and reincarnation.

At the time of my birth an absolute minority in the west did not think about these subjects, and they would never have given reincarnation and Karma a place in their 'beliefs'

Since those days a real revolution took place and many people are not even aware of this.

Today probably the majority of people in the west know, are aware, of reincarnation and karma and do see it as a possibility or just believe in it.

If you would continue the speed of change taking place in the last 50 years it would not be a mad idea to calculate by this change and speed of change , the majority of the population in the west (of christian origin) could have become budhists in another 50 years.

So in future reincarnation and Karma will be more important to the world as it is today.

Then , reincarnation and Karma is connected to gender, illness, happiness and misfortune, and many more aspects of human life.

We only can understand life when we learn to know about Karma.

So it is important and interesting to learn about it.

As far as I understand it is as impossible for a human to reincarnate as an animal as it is possible for an older person to return to the phase of being a baby again once living on earth. In evolution we cannot go back we can only evolve on in a good or a bad way.

Then : a singel animal on earth is no individuality. Every kind of animal is as a personality embodied in the quantity of the specimen of this kind of animal. The complete quantity of a kind of animal reflects in the material world one single spirit.

A human is different from an animal since a human entity materialises in 1 body.

Normally only humans die, meaning only when a human die the complete materialisation of this human spirit in a body on earth ends.

An animal is dead only after all the specimen of this particular animalspecies died and this we call extinction.

The extinction of an animalspecies is as a phenonemon the same as the dead of a single human person.

I do not see an essential difference between male and female since ' human males' and ' human females' originate out of the same sexless spiritual world, all originally are sexless complete spiritual entities.

As far as I know in the evolution of mankind the difference in human gender started with the beginning of the materialisation of the human spirits into bodies on earth. Measured in the total of human evolution this is only happening for a relatively short time.

There are however differences regarding gender when humans live on earth, differences that evolved in time and will continue to evolve in time and even disapear in near future.

But to me those differences itself have no influence to the valuation of a specific gender and cannot lead in giving a specific gender a lower or higher status.

I could think when this happens it is possible a specific groupego is attached to an illusionair higher status

Human males can do good in a specific male way, they can do bad in a specific male way.

Human females can do the same in their way.

[rockyysdt]

One of the biggest changes in the western world is the change in awareness with regard to Karma and reincarnation.

At the time of my birth an absolute minority in the west did not think about these subjects, and they would never have given reincarnation and Karma a place in their 'beliefs'

Since those days a real revolution took place and many people are not even aware of this.

Today probably the majority of people in the west know, are aware, of reincarnation and karma and do see it as a possibility or just believe in it.

If you would continue the speed of change taking place in the last 50 years it would not be a mad idea to calculate by this change and speed of change , the majority of the population in the west (of christian origin) could have become budhists in another 50 years.

So in future reincarnation and Karma will be more important to the world as it is today.

Then , reincarnation and Karma is connected to gender, illness, happiness and misfortune, and many more aspects of human life.

We only can understand life when we learn to know about Karma.

So it is important and interesting to learn about it.

As far as I understand it is as impossible for a human to reincarnate as an animal as it is possible for an older person to return to the phase of being a baby again once living on earth. In evolution we cannot go back we can only evolve on in a good or a bad way.

Generally Buddhists subscribe to the notion of Re Birth not Reincarnation.

Reincarnation, a doctrine followed by Hindu's & Sikhi's is believed to happen when the soul or spirit, after the death of the body, comes back to Earth in a newborn body.

On the other hand Re Birth taught by the Buddha is a doctrine of which an evolving consciousness or stream of consciousness (not soul or spirit) upon death becomes one of the contributing causes for the arising of a new individual. The consciousness in the new person is neither identical to nor entirely different from that in the deceased but the two form a causal continuum or stream.

Others may correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Buddha taught of soul or spirit.

Do you follow Buddhist philosophy or Hinduism?

Also do you remember & could you share some of your former lives?

Edited July 31, 2010 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

I would say the law of karma is the most important, and interesting aspect of Theravada, since it is the cause and explanation for most things. It is completely fair and just and incorrupt IMHO.

Someone commits a "sin" in one life and three lives later -- when he or she cannot possibly have any understanding of what happened in past lives -- he or she is punished with a cleft palate.

That doesn't seem fair or logical to me.

[phetaroi]

My teacher states that this can be the sequence of rebirths as a consequence of breaking the third..... and sometimes before rebirth in the human realm there are rebirths in the animal realms...perhaps as a bull which is castrated for many lives...or a monkey which has its testicles ripped off by the jealous pack leader...etc. etc.

I do not judge whether he is right or wrong......after all he is the Arahant.

The punishments seem a tad severe for the crime....but then a man who cheats on his wife can cause an immense amount of suffering for her and the entire family..... and we would not feel compassion easily for those who rape and abuse children and force them into the sex trade.

Obviously not all female rebirth canbe judged to be a punishment, but how can we know since we are unable to see a beings past karma....something which LP Jaran is able to do.

There are females in the six heaven realms too....(quite beautiful ones too I believe)...since males stay at the state of a 20 year old and females at the state of a 15 year old their entire lives there.

You see, it is at this point where Buddhism begins to fall apart for me. We have not one iota of concrete evidence for this, and yet you say it is central to Buddhism. This sounds like a fantasy to me.

[bifftastic]

My teacher states that this can be the sequence of rebirths as a consequence of breaking the third..... and sometimes before rebirth in the human realm there are rebirths in the animal realms...perhaps as a bull which is castrated for many lives...or a monkey which has its testicles ripped off by the jealous pack leader...etc. etc.

I do not judge whether he is right or wrong......after all he is the Arahant.

The punishments seem a tad severe for the crime....but then a man who cheats on his wife can cause an immense amount of suffering for her and the entire family..... and we would not feel compassion easily for those who rape and abuse children and force them into the sex trade.

Obviously not all female rebirth canbe judged to be a punishment, but how can we know since we are unable to see a beings past karma....something which LP Jaran is able to do.

There are females in the six heaven realms too....(quite beautiful ones too I believe)...since males stay at the state of a 20 year old and females at the state of a 15 year old their entire lives there.

You see, it is at this point where Buddhism begins to fall apart for me. We have not one iota of concrete evidence for this, and yet you say it is central to Buddhism. This sounds like a fantasy to me.

I agree, it's when talk of 'punishment' for breaking 'rules' arrives that the whole thing smacks of social control and politics. Surely the main point of the teachings is for personal enlightenment rather than, 'you mustn't cheat on your wife or a monkey will rip your <deleted> off' which is just frightening people so that they adhere to current social norms.

Punishment implies a 'punisher' which implies some form of deity, which further implies some kind of 'magic' or 'other worldliness' and believing in spirits and ghosts and pixies and goblins etc. etc. The whole concept of hel_l and heaven as distinct places in some 'magical' dimension which cannot be seen but must be believed in because the people in charge of the local wat/church/synagogue/mosque/temple want people to obey the rules is, in my opinion, a primitive method of law enforcement and nothing to do with personal enlightenment. This punishment for rule breaking always seems to be balanced out by some kind of reward in a heavenly realm involving the limitless availability of young women.

[Xangsamhua]

I'm not sure that this is a helpful topic for a web-based forum in which there is zero or almost zero participation by women.

I suspect that women reading this thread would find the discussion bizarre and deeply alienating.

Do any women read the Buddhism forum? I think there has been very little female participation since I started following it. Perhaps this reflects the position of women in Thai Buddhism. Their role is just to feed the monks - both their lunch and their egos.

[fabianfred]

I should have known that if I used the word punishment someone would jump out and bite me.

It is the law of karma itself which gives the effect (punishment) as a result of the cause (negative karma from causing suffering to other beings.)

The law of karma is a natural law and doesn't need a god to do the judging and mete out punishments.

So the person who caused suffering to another being in a past life should not suffer the consequences?? (cleft palette in this life?) Why should they get off free without paying for their wrong doing? Don't go saying that they do not remember, that doesn't wipe out the suffering caused..... and if we practice vipassana meditation it is possible for us to see our past karma and know the cause for our present suffering, then by donating the merits of our practice, if the being we caused to suffer is prepared to forgive us then that karma is wiped out.

It is certainly possible for animals to go to heaven...as it is for humans to go to hel_l. This shows a basic misunderstanding. We are all beings....that's all. I am presently in the human realm and therefore have human form.....the dog is in the animal realm as has animal form. At rebirth we could easily swap places depending where our karma takes us.

There is not a gradual progression...a gradual perfecting ourselves....going from animal to human to deva etc. There is continual falling back....because of ignorance of the truth.

Because Buddhism sees the past and future as infinite, all beings would have got to the top already if it was just a steady progress and no falling back.

[rockyysdt]

I should have known that if I used the word punishment someone would jump out and bite me.

Not just punishment Fred, but consigning women to a lower order than men can be a sore point.

So the person who caused suffering to another being in a past life should not suffer the consequences?? (cleft palette in this life?) Why should they get off free without paying for their wrong doing? Don't go saying that they do not remember, that doesn't wipe out the suffering caused..... and if we practice vipassana meditation it is possible for us to see our past karma and know the cause for our present suffering, then by donating the merits of our practice, if the being we caused to suffer is prepared to forgive us then that karma is wiped out.

It is certainly possible for animals to go to heaven...as it is for humans to go to hel_l. This shows a basic misunderstanding. We are all beings....that's all. I am presently in the human realm and therefore have human form.....the dog is in the animal realm as has animal form. At rebirth we could easily swap places depending where our karma takes us.

There is not a gradual progression...a gradual perfecting ourselves....going from animal to human to deva etc. There is continual falling back....because of ignorance of the truth.

Because Buddhism sees the past and future as infinite, all beings would have got to the top already if it was just a steady progress and no falling back.

I thought that there is no soul or spirit, therefore no reincarnation for us to occupy a new form.

I thought Buddhism teaches Re Birth.

An evolving consciousness or stream of consciousness (not soul or spirit) upon death becomes one of the contributing causes for the arising of a new individual.

The consciousness in the new person is neither identical to nor entirely different from that in the deceased but the two form a causal continuum or stream.

For example Rocky will not appear in a new form, but the evolving consciousness associated with Rocky will result in a causal set or stream.

Rocky will die as he is finite & conditioned.

Someone who maybe re born to the set belonging to this continuum of consciousness may experience the fruits of karma.

Edited July 31, 2010 by rockyysdt

[bifftastic]

I should have known that if I used the word punishment someone would jump out and bite me.

It is the law of karma itself which gives the effect (punishment) as a result of the cause (negative karma from causing suffering to other beings.)

The law of karma is a natural law and doesn't need a god to do the judging and mete out punishments.

So the person who caused suffering to another being in a past life should not suffer the consequences?? (cleft palette in this life?) Why should they get off free without paying for their wrong doing? Don't go saying that they do not remember, that doesn't wipe out the suffering caused..... and if we practice vipassana meditation it is possible for us to see our past karma and know the cause for our present suffering, then by donating the merits of our practice, if the being we caused to suffer is prepared to forgive us then that karma is wiped out.

It is certainly possible for animals to go to heaven...as it is for humans to go to hel_l. This shows a basic misunderstanding. We are all beings....that's all. I am presently in the human realm and therefore have human form.....the dog is in the animal realm as has animal form. At rebirth we could easily swap places depending where our karma takes us.

There is not a gradual progression...a gradual perfecting ourselves....going from animal to human to deva etc. There is continual falling back....because of ignorance of the truth.

Because Buddhism sees the past and future as infinite, all beings would have got to the top already if it was just a steady progress and no falling back.

Phra fabianfred I wasn't jumping out, nor biting you, please forgive me if you feel 'bitten' I wasn't suggesting that people who cause suffering would not feel the pain of the suffering they cause. But the idea that some kind of re-incarnation (as opposed to a re-birth, as described by another poster) would seem to be the difference between a doctrine based on 'magic' where spirits and ghosts abide in other 'dimensions', the existence of heaven and hel_l as definable 'places' for reward or suffering, against the path to enlightenment which would be more a personal search for perfection. The idea that medical conditions, somehow make people 'less' than others in terms of their own path is, at best, unhelpful I believe. Also that women and katoeys are less than men is derived from social conditioning and seems to attempt to divide humanity into classes. I would not suggest that we are all equal in terms of our progress on the path to any form of enlightenment but would suggest that this is not based on our gender. The caste divisions placed on a society that practises this kind of doctrine encourage an 'inevitability' of one's position within that society and is, in my humble opinion, used as a political tool by those unscrupulous enough to desire to rule over it.

I am finding this discussion both interesting and informative, thank you to all who have taken the time to post.

[phetaroi]

I should have known that if I used the word punishment someone would jump out and bite me.

Not just punishment Fred, but consigning women to a lower order than men can be a sore point.

I agree with you here, Rocky...because the punishment -- as in all religions -- appears to be more about either you don't think like I think or you are not what I am, therefore you need to be punished. The scary thing about fred's approach here is that who else would he substitute for women as being lower than men? Blacks? Latinos? Whites (after all, he's in a wat run by Asians)? Mixed race? Aborigines? And which life form is higher? A cat or a dog or my dead parrot? You know it's funny, most of what I read that Buddha talked about was people and how they behaved. We can observe human behavior in real time and see consequences for behavior. Yet, fred and others like him want to bring in the invisible and unobservable (animal heavens and hells, for example), and try to say that there is proof of all this mumbo jumbo.

[sabaijai]

if we practice vipassana meditation it is possible for us to see our past karma and know the cause for our present suffering, then by donating the merits of our practice, if the being we caused to suffer is prepared to forgive us then that karma is wiped out.

Do you have any citations from the Tipitaka to support the notion that it is posible to 'wipe put' karma? My teachers have been unanimous in saying that all karma has vipaka (result), that there can be no karma without a corresponding result, and that result cannot be modified. Perhaps I've missed something in their teachings or in my readings, but what I have been taught is that the vipaka is kusala if the karma is kusala and akusala if the karma is akusala.

PA Payuttho's comprehensive treatise on karma makes no mention of wiping out karma. Vipaka ends when karma ends and that only ends on reaching nibbana. Phra V Wajiramethi, perhaps the most learned monk of his generation, teaches the same.

As for forgiveness, supppose the being who might have the power to forgive may have travelled far away or died? The idea that a being could transmigrate to another realm and somehow be aware of another being's Buddhist practice in the earth realm would suggest the continuing existence of viññāṇa or consciousness, which like the other khandhas does not survive death. Viññāṇa arises only when internal sense organs (eye faculty, etc) perceive form, ie it's part of a dependent chain of form to feeling to perception to mental formations to consciousness. Can these cross realms? Nothing in the Tipitaka suggests so, as far as I have read or heard.

[christiaan]

I think it is clear that one of the main aspects of te position of woman in Budddhisme is the interpretation of Karma. There seem to be different ways to look at this, or different interpretations.

When we touch the subjects as Karma, rebirth and reincarnation we come into another dialogue, so I am thinking to open a topic about this subject starting with my view about these subjects.

What made me wonder fabianfred ....in your second contribution you wrote that " we have to remember that te workings of the law of karma are unknowable to those but Buddhas " and you did repeat this more detailed in your third contribution. Then you also emphasised Karma to be the most important and in your fifth contribution you again confirmed : "The working of Karma is interesting but a mystery to us" .

In your sixth contribution however you wrote: if we practice vipassana meditation it is possible for us to see our past karma and know the cause for our present suffering.

I would say this looks very inconsistent.

When in normal life we have an accident and are damaged in some physical way, in a storm a rooftile drops on our head, we can, by observation and knowledge explain what happens to us and why. For this we use our knowledge, our collection of concepts of natural law.

But we know nothing about Karma and cannot because it is a mystery and yet we can ' know' when we practice vipassana meditation to become aware of our past Karma and present suffering (and then not knowing about the law of Karma???)

I would respectfully say writing about Karma your way to me is a mystery.

Beside this 'unknown mystery' of law of Karma there are more aspects to the position of woman in Buddhisme , specifically in Thailand.

Martin Seeger wrote an interesting study telling about this, it is called : The Revival of the Theravada Nun order in Thailand: scriptural, Authority and Cultural Resistance. Interesting to read and to learn more about the undervaluation of woman in Thailand.

It is also interesting to realise how many woman are reading or participating in this subject.

How many woman do participate in this Thaivisa forum at all?

When I read the study of Martin Seeger it seems woman - in Thailand - are no participating part in a decision about their position, that is all the field of men.

In many countries still the same old song.

I can imagine very well woman are not participating, nobody has the desire to experience undervcaluation, rejection, and maybe even brutalising.

I am also not aware Karma can be whiped out. Allthough, when someone forgives when asked for forgiveness out of an atmost sincerity and remorse by the person who caused suffering, this will ofcourse have impact on the outcome of Karma. Of both karma.

[fabianfred]

Yet, fred and others like him want to bring in the invisible and unobservable (animal heavens and hells, for example), and try to say that there is proof of all this mumbo jumbo.

I have not seen my past lives.....But the Buddha teaches about other realms and rebirth and recalls his own past lives. I have confidence in my teacher the Buddha and do not believe he would lie to us. I therefore accept what he taught as fact. If you choose to disbelieve him then you are hardly a follower of his.

Too many Westerners get mixed up about his teaching, the kalama sutta. They like to say that he taught to disbelieve everything until it is proven. But he never taught that, he said how to judge a teacher, by carefully testing out their teaching. So all the skeptics like to misquote him and say its OK to not believe anything unproven.

[fabianfred]

if we practice vipassana meditation it is possible for us to see our past karma and know the cause for our present suffering, then by donating the merits of our practice, if the being we caused to suffer is prepared to forgive us then that karma is wiped out.

Do you have any citations from the Tipitaka to support the notion that it is posible to 'wipe put' karma? My teachers have been unanimous in saying that all karma has vipaka (result), that there can be no karma without a corresponding result, and that result cannot be modified. Perhaps I've missed something in their teachings or in my readings, but what I have been taught is that the vipaka is kusala if the karma is kusala and akusala if the karma is akusala.

PA Payuttho's comprehensive treatise on karma makes no mention of wiping out karma. Vipaka ends when karma ends and that only ends on reaching nibbana. Phra V Wajiramethi, perhaps the most learned monk of his generation, teaches the same.

As for forgiveness, supppose the being who might have the power to forgive may have travelled far away or died? The idea that a being could transmigrate to another realm and somehow be aware of another being's Buddhist practice in the earth realm would suggest the continuing existence of viññāṇa or consciousness, which like the other khandhas does not survive death. Viññāṇa arises only when internal sense organs (eye faculty, etc) perceive form, ie it's part of a dependent chain of form to feeling to perception to mental formations to consciousness. Can these cross realms? Nothing in the Tipitaka suggests so, as far as I have read or heard.

I have no citations...merely what i read from my teacher who I believe is an Arahant.

I did not say that karma can be wiped out in general. But my teacher has had many many examples of how one who practices vipassana, dedicated the merit to their enemies (beings they harmed in the past), and those enemies then forgive them, which causes that particular negative karma to be cancelled out and they do not have to suffer for it anymore in the future.

The karma is not actually wiped away....... it is used up..... because when practicing Vipassana the meditator starts to get strong suffering as a result of their past actions. If they are patient and do not give up, ut continue to practice, they eventually reach a crisis point where the suffering is so intense that they can hardly stand it anymore....it is then that they must make the vow not to give up but to continue ...even if it kills them....and this is often followed by a great relief and all the suffering goes away. This means that the enemy has decided to forgive them and that particular karma has been destroyed.

So the karma is not simply wiped away...but used up.

Since the worst possible suffering you could imagine in the human realm does not compare with the least amount in the hel_l realms, it would be better to pay off the karma here and now that wait until later and perhaps have to pay the bill in hel_l.

[bifftastic]

Yet, fred and others like him want to bring in the invisible and unobservable (animal heavens and hells, for example), and try to say that there is proof of all this mumbo jumbo.

I have not seen my past lives.....But the Buddha teaches about other realms and rebirth and recalls his own past lives. I have confidence in my teacher the Buddha and do not believe he would lie to us. I therefore accept what he taught as fact. If you choose to disbelieve him then you are hardly a follower of his.

Too many Westerners get mixed up about his teaching, the kalama sutta. They like to say that he taught to disbelieve everything until it is proven. But he never taught that, he said how to judge a teacher, by carefully testing out their teaching. So all the skeptics like to misquote him and say its OK to not believe anything unproven.

But the fact remains that you believe women, katoeys and people with physical disabilities to be somewhat lower than able bodied males. This has, presumably, been taught to you. How do you propose to carefully test that?

[fabianfred]

I would say this looks very inconsistent.

When in normal life we have an accident and are damaged in some physical way, in a storm a rooftile drops on our head, we can, by observation and knowledge explain what happens to us and why. For this we use our knowledge, our collection of concepts of natural law.

But we know nothing about Karma and cannot because it is a mystery and yet we can ' know' when we practice vipassana meditation to become aware of our past Karma and present suffering (and then not knowing about the law of Karma???)

I would respectfully say writing about Karma your way to me is a mystery.

We can know the past karma with a particular being...but not all our past karma.

An example from many my teacher tells people about...... A woman came to see him and complained about ahving bad dreams of a baby trying to kill her. The abbot could see her past karma (he is very special in that way) and advised her to come into the temple and practice Vipassana for seven days. As she started to practice she got stronger and stronger pains in her stomach area. he told her to be patient and donate the merits at the end of each session to the being (baby). Eventually the crisis point was reached on the seventh day and she saw a vision of her past karma when she had had an abortion. The child was very angry at being denied that chance of human life and wanted to take revenge on her. if she had not come to practice ashe would probably have been driven mad. She saw the reason for her suffering and was determined not to give in, so she vowed to die if that was what it took. Then the pain all disappeared and when she went to see the abbot he said that her knew from the start, but wanted her to see the cause for herself, and told her that it was now forgiven and she wouldn't have to suffer in the future for having had the abortion, and she might have had to suffer in hel_l.

[fabianfred]

Yet, fred and others like him want to bring in the invisible and unobservable (animal heavens and hells, for example), and try to say that there is proof of all this mumbo jumbo.

I have not seen my past lives.....But the Buddha teaches about other realms and rebirth and recalls his own past lives. I have confidence in my teacher the Buddha and do not believe he would lie to us. I therefore accept what he taught as fact. If you choose to disbelieve him then you are hardly a follower of his.

Too many Westerners get mixed up about his teaching, the kalama sutta. They like to say that he taught to disbelieve everything until it is proven. But he never taught that, he said how to judge a teacher, by carefully testing out their teaching. So all the skeptics like to misquote him and say its OK to not believe anything unproven.

But the fact remains that you believe women, katoeys and people with physical disabilities to be somewhat lower than able bodied males. This has, presumably, been taught to you. How do you propose to carefully test that?

I personally do not believe that women or others are lower or lesser than men. i am merely repeating what my teacher said is sometimes the consequences of breaking a certain precept.