Sending food back to the kitchen?

[CMX]

Pim,

Tongue-in-cheek - that's what motivated my suggestion for a beer-lovers' spectator-sports edition. I had rather thought that the underlined parts might provide a clue:

***********

"After some years of shouting beer brand names at each other, readers would doubtless welcome a shift to another subject – which is the best third pint? This scheme could be extended over time, of course, for the true, surviving, aficionados of beer in later years.

"But these advertisers cannot afford to pay a great deal. Therefore, the publication would have to be sold, probably for 100 baht or so, later on in the evenings, in bars and pubs everywhere that cater to English speaking beer lovers. Thus could this large segment of our numbers, knowledgeable all, be served.

"{I should by way of honesty admit that I come from a nation of beer lovers, the U.S. There, Budworster (a kind of robot urine, IMAO), and many "light" beers (baby-robot urine) rule.}"

***********

At an impressionable age, I spent the better part of a year in Paris growing up. We impoverished students would gather for parties at a (cheap) Chinese restaurant and drink Rose, also cheap. Except for dessert wines, I think we had adopted from that country how most wine-lovers feel about the stuff, as basinboy suggests. Popular is one thing (early Chardonnay, in the U.S. - oak with wine in it); quality is another.

That is, one appreciates City Life's standards.

(Still, I have a friend who raves about Leo, and a chap who owns an establishment claims Lao is particularly good of its type. Maybe a one-time column about a big tasting? The idea would be that City Life do all the organizing and arranging for sponsors and then the vox populi would drink and then speak, burp.)

Edited September 6, 2010 by CMX

[lingnoi1977]

As I stated in a previous post, pretty learned comments by L&J and pretty poor form all round.

The irony is that L&J quoted an 'expert' and applied it to a gripe. He/she got it all wrong and he/she would quite obviously benefit from reading the wine column!!

Foolish.

[junglechef]

New in town and interested in wine events. Always enjoy a nice glass to compliment what I'm eating or just the weather. Done some cooking for wineries in Napa and feeling a bit lost in my search for a nice bottle that I feel is worth the money here.

[lingnoi1977]

New in town and interested in wine events. Always enjoy a nice glass to compliment what I'm eating or just the weather. Done some cooking for wineries in Napa and feeling a bit lost in my search for a nice bottle that I feel is worth the money here.

Junglechef, www.chiangmainews.com wine column in the Reader section. There are some suggestions there. I also believe there is a contact email for the columnist who will answer all your wine questions.

Cheers.

[mcgriffith]

Glad to see the column; will read it faithfully.

I am a wine drinker from way back...when Aus and Chilean was something one used to strip paint off of barns. Happily, they make some of the finest wines in the world now.

The real issue for me, as it is with many others (as I can see from above comments)- is the unbelieveable extortionate excise tax the Thai gov't charges for imported wine.

It's trade protectionism, pure and simple.

There is a nascent Thai wine industry, but the quantity produced is miniscule. Some of it is very good. But nothing justifies this tax rate.

(It seems the gov't will allow any uni student to buy lao khao in a plastic bag from a pushcart vendor, and then crash helmetless into a curb. Zero tax on the moonshine which is poison, but god forbid allowing some middle market Penfolds or Beringer in at close to the price it sells for in the originating country. It's easily 3-4 times the price here).

Rant over.

[heybruce]

\

There is a nascent Thai wine industry, but the quantity produced is miniscule. Some of it is very good. But nothing justifies this tax rate.

"Some of it is very good"? Thai wine? Are you prepared to name names?

I admit I gave up trying Thai wine shortly after I first tried Thai wine, but I never encountered anything that didn't make me wince. It's probably the climate, I'm not aware of any successful wine industry that uses grapes grown in the tropics.

[neilrob]

\

There is a nascent Thai wine industry, but the quantity produced is miniscule. Some of it is very good. But nothing justifies this tax rate.

"Some of it is very good"? Thai wine? Are you prepared to name names?

I admit I gave up trying Thai wine shortly after I first tried Thai wine, but I never encountered anything that didn't make me wince. It's probably the climate, I'm not aware of any successful wine industry that uses grapes grown in the tropics.

You obviously gave up much too soon. I know of no great Thai wines, but there are quite a few perfectly drinkable ones and a few that indeed qualify as very good. This is not just my opinion. For example, go to the Monsoon Valley web site and you can see the awards their wines have won in competitions in France, England, Japan etc. A number of their wines are rated in the mid to high 80s by the well known American wine critic, Robert Parker. I understand that the majority of their production is exported to Europe or the US, rather than sold here. Unfortunately the price they charge in Thailand is not that different to the prices for imported wines.

[lingnoi1977]

\

There is a nascent Thai wine industry, but the quantity produced is miniscule. Some of it is very good. But nothing justifies this tax rate.

"Some of it is very good"? Thai wine? Are you prepared to name names?

I admit I gave up trying Thai wine shortly after I first tried Thai wine, but I never encountered anything that didn't make me wince. It's probably the climate, I'm not aware of any successful wine industry that uses grapes grown in the tropics.

You obviously gave up much too soon. I know of no great Thai wines, but there are quite a few perfectly drinkable ones and a few that indeed qualify as very good. This is not just my opinion. For example, go to the Monsoon Valley web site and you can see the awards their wines have won in competitions in France, England, Japan etc. A number of their wines are rated in the mid to high 80s by the well known American wine critic, Robert Parker. I understand that the majority of their production is exported to Europe or the US, rather than sold here. Unfortunately the price they charge in Thailand is not that different to the prices for imported wines.

Drinkable, I would agree. Very good - it's all relative I guess. On a world stage I do not see Monsoon Valley or any other brand from Thailand competing consistently at a high level on the world stage. Most wine producers world wide will publicise their medals, and endorsements and most consumers will fail to put it into perspective. Not for one minute degrading Monsoon Valley wines, or any others that have numerous gold, silver and bronze medals but one needs to be aware of the local and international show judging system affecting these awards. Producers have been successfully marketing their wines to gullible consumers for years by simply applying a number of award stickers on their bottles gained from non-mainstream shows.

A rating of mid-high 80's is not something to market ones wines on, unless of course that is the highest score one has achieved.

Although the Amercian, Australian, European show judging systems differ in method, the general idea is to score wines in their respective classes whereby judges will come to an often manipulated consensus as to the best wines in the class. Mid to high 80's would result in a good quality wine, devoid of faults but perhaps missing n element of complexity. It is equivalent to about 15-17 out of 20. A silver medal maybe. When I say manipulated consensus, the chairman of judges will announce prior to judging what they are looking for in certain classes. For example, he might instruct the panel to mark down any wines with excessive oak or wines that have an herbaceous tone. The panel will then taste and score wines accordingly.

As to the ability to produce very good or great wines in Thailand, I am almost certain that most grape varieties will show high sugar rates and low natural acidity and will reach physiological ripeness over a short space of time rather than ripen over a long and cool season. There is a reason why most of the marketing people behind Thai brands call it "New Latitude Wines". This lattitude has its challenges for sure.

[CMX]

Wines I saw as prizewinners were all rosees. "Noble" rose just doesn't leap to mind as a regular thing. Also, even at high altitudes, I wonder at the effect of a short growing day.

Still, there are a few novel and amusing ideas here!

1. Wines that suit spicy foods? (New market = profits.)

2. Thai wines for a Citylife articles compared (with prices), so we can at least sort some workaday vin ordinaire that is not overtaxed, fee'd, and excised.

3. I knew of forces here in the beer industry and rum companies which might oppose, within government, lowering taxes associated with Asean trade agreements - now I know of a growing tropical wine development that might join them.

And an idle thought. What happens when China gets around to it? Alliance Francaise in France has had hundreds upon hundreds of Chinese students studying French. What's next?

We do indeed live in interesting times.

Edited September 12, 2010 by CMX

[lingnoi1977]

Wines I saw as prizewinners were all rosees. "Noble" rose just doesn't leap to mind as a regular thing. Also, even at high altitudes, I wonder at the effect of a short growing day.

Still, there are a few novel and amusing ideas here!

1. Wines that suit spicy foods? (New market = profits.)

2. Thai wines for a Citylife articles compared (with prices), so we can at least sort some workaday vin ordinaire that is not overtaxed, fee'd, and excised.

3. I knew of forces here in the beer industry and rum companies which might oppose, within government, lowering taxes associated with Asean trade agreements - now I know of a growing tropical wine development that might join them.

And an idle thought. What happens when China gets around to it? Alliance Francaise in France has had hundreds upon hundreds of Chinese students studying French. What's next?

We do indeed live in interesting times.

Good ideas CMX.

How about this for attracting a crowd:

New Altitude Wine Dinner - a 10 year vertical tasting of roses

We could finish with Low Altitude Coffee - the best Robusta available.

mmmm

Would not have a problem getting supply.

[neilrob]

Their roses are indeed surprisingly good. However, there are other Monsoon Valley wines than roses that have done well in tastings. For example, their Columbard (not usually a grape that is associated with fine wines) received 87 from Robert Parker. Their Muscat is also very drinkable, if you like dessert wines, and some of their reds have also received awards. From his/her posts, I would guess that lingnoi is not familiar with Robert Parker (probably because you are maybe not American). Robert Parker is easily the most influential wine critic in America. He describes his rating system as: just above 80 means just above average, to in the upper 80s means very good. Comparatively few wines in his rating system reach the 90s. So this would rate the Columbard as very good. As I said, I don't know of any Thai wines that are "great" or anything like it, but the best are indeed competitive internationally. A Robert Parker rating of 87 is worth boasting about in marketing, and makes the wine very far from the robusta comparison suggested by lingnoi. I suggest you go out and try these wines, lingnoi---you will find some of them surprisingly good.

[CMX]

Wonderful! Here again we see the coming together of minds for which Thai Visa Forums are so well known.

Should the marvels at Citylife Chiang Mai put before us, in a future wine column, information about locally grown tropical wines that meet worthwhile standards, even those of the esteemed lawyer, Robert Parker - while (given labor costs here and freedom from import duties) not being priced artificially high, doubtless even I will open my mind.

[CMX]

"New Altitude Wine Dinner - a 10 year vertical tasting of roses

We could finish with Low Altitude Coffee - the best Robusta available

Would not have a problem getting supply." ~ Lingnoi1977

This is brilliant! Super! I particularly esteem the requirement for the vertical tasting for our fine local medal-winners.

(However, by supply, you mean the beverages - or the volunteers to swill and grade the results?)

All goes to show that Citylife is not only particularly well written and nicely researched, but provocative (in the best of ways).

[lingnoi1977]

Their roses are indeed surprisingly good. However, there are other Monsoon Valley wines than roses that have done well in tastings. For example, their Columbard (not usually a grape that is associated with fine wines) received 87 from Robert Parker. Their Muscat is also very drinkable, if you like dessert wines, and some of their reds have also received awards. From his/her posts, I would guess that lingnoi is not familiar with Robert Parker (probably because you are maybe not American). Robert Parker is easily the most influential wine critic in America. He describes his rating system as: just above 80 means just above average, to in the upper 80s means very good. Comparatively few wines in his rating system reach the 90s. So this would rate the Columbard as very good. As I said, I don't know of any Thai wines that are "great" or anything like it, but the best are indeed competitive internationally. A Robert Parker rating of 87 is worth boasting about in marketing, and makes the wine very far from the robusta comparison suggested by lingnoi. I suggest you go out and try these wines, lingnoi---you will find some of them surprisingly good.

Hi Neilrob. Fair enough. I guess it all depends on what your drinking standards are and what you are used to. I still maintain that the wines of Monsoon , PB etc are drinkable. And yes, I have tasted wines from both of these wineries. The Colombard is a good drink.

I would PB ahead of Monsoon overall. A score of mid to high 80's is actually pretty good for a less complex wine but when it comes to a wine with structure, depth of flavour, complexity etc., there is daylight between mid 80's and early 90's and between high 80's and mid 90's.

As for Robert Parker Jnr., I chose not to mention him because of several reasons. I wont go into them all on this forum because it would take far too long and it is really quite boring after all. Here is a couple of points.

Parker has done some great things for many wine entities world wide. I am sure some of the Chateaux of Bordeaux and Houses of Burgundy have much to thank him about. I remember when he scored the relatively obscure (at the time) 1982 Chateau Petrus, Pomerol a perfect 100/100. He spoke about the wine having a "tidal wave of voluptuous fruit..." The public went nuts. Petrus' unofficial status sky rocketed.

God knows, I used to buy wine based on his recommendations. I have also profited from quoting Parker in the past. I have sold wines based purely on his scores and have marketed wines as "Parker wines". I know people who have based their entire collection on Parker reviews. They have done well when it came to resale.

Parker is a commercial necessity for many in the industry but not respected by many for his ability to turn a vintage, close a door, elevate a status etc.

I remember when Parker started discovering some of the "new world' wine growing regions. He scored a particular wine 94/100. The producer got pretty excited and charged 4 times more for the next vintage. Others around him followed suit. Soon the whole sub-region was producing Parker wines - big, high alcohol, one dimensional with no shred of elegance about them.

Yes, a prominent wine critic and yes, a very powerful man loved by some and detested by others.

A good discussion.

Cheers,

Lingnoi.

[lingnoi1977]

"New Altitude Wine Dinner - a 10 year vertical tasting of roses

We could finish with Low Altitude Coffee - the best Robusta available

Would not have a problem getting supply." ~ Lingnoi1977

This is brilliant! Super! I particularly esteem the requirement for the vertical tasting for our fine local medal-winners.

(However, by supply, you mean the beverages - or the volunteers to swill and grade the results?)

All goes to show that Citylife is not only particularly well written and nicely researched, but provocative (in the best of ways).

[neilrob]

Hi Lingnoi---yes, I understand what you are saying about Parker---pros and cons. I was not of course trying to say he is the last word on wines, but simply arguing that there are Thai wines worth taking notice of, in support of McGriffith's comment and in response to that of Heybruce---I have come across such an opinion more than once before ie. "I tried a Thai wine and it was rubbish, therefore all Thai wines are rubbish". Clearly that is not your opinion.

Getting back to the topic, I hope that City Life will consider an article on the better Thai wines from PB, Monsoon Valley or elsewhere.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Will absolutly consider it. I will talk to the writer of the column about this. While I am no great fan of Thai wines, I have had to eat my words once or twice at a blind tasting! Just for your information, at our last (and first) wine tasting, ItalAsia were selling bottles of very very decent Pinot Grigio for 280 baht a bottle! So, for those thinking that we do this to sell expensive stuff - well firstly we are not doing the selling! - you may want to give it a try next time. We had 30 guests, no one left with less than a case! The most expensive was a rose prosecco at 550. Pim

[Gonzo the Face]

Don't want this thread to get too lost....

Maybe the place that installs one of these will rank at the top of the list for the top of the tops's

put up a stand providing those little mechanic crawl under the car creepers , a slightly raised pillow and a recording saying "fill er up " , just lay back and enjoy life.

http://freshneasybuzz.blogspot.com/2010/09/friday-frolic-will-frances-gas-station.html

Edited September 22, 2010 by Gonzo the Face

[Gonzo the Face]

...and look ..... they put it right next to the fat peoples pasteries..... icing and all

[lingnoi1977]

...and look ..... they put it right next to the fat peoples pasteries..... icing and all

lol

and food has replaced sex in your life...

foreplay was fast too?

[basinboy]

Their roses are indeed surprisingly good. However, there are other Monsoon Valley wines than roses that have done well in tastings. For example, their Columbard (not usually a grape that is associated with fine wines) received 87 from Robert Parker. Their Muscat is also very drinkable, if you like dessert wines, and some of their reds have also received awards. From his/her posts, I would guess that lingnoi is not familiar with Robert Parker (probably because you are maybe not American). Robert Parker is easily the most influential wine critic in America. He describes his rating system as: just above 80 means just above average, to in the upper 80s means very good. Comparatively few wines in his rating system reach the 90s. So this would rate the Columbard as very good. As I said, I don't know of any Thai wines that are "great" or anything like it, but the best are indeed competitive internationally. A Robert Parker rating of 87 is worth boasting about in marketing, and makes the wine very far from the robusta comparison suggested by lingnoi. I suggest you go out and try these wines, lingnoi---you will find some of them surprisingly good.

Hi Neilrob. Fair enough. I guess it all depends on what your drinking standards are and what you are used to. I still maintain that the wines of Monsoon , PB etc are drinkable. And yes, I have tasted wines from both of these wineries. The Colombard is a good drink.

I would PB ahead of Monsoon overall. A score of mid to high 80's is actually pretty good for a less complex wine but when it comes to a wine with structure, depth of flavour, complexity etc., there is daylight between mid 80's and early 90's and between high 80's and mid 90's.

As for Robert Parker Jnr., I chose not to mention him because of several reasons. I wont go into them all on this forum because it would take far too long and it is really quite boring after all. Here is a couple of points.

Parker has done some great things for many wine entities world wide. I am sure some of the Chateaux of Bordeaux and Houses of Burgundy have much to thank him about. I remember when he scored the relatively obscure (at the time) 1982 Chateau Petrus, Pomerol a perfect 100/100. He spoke about the wine having a "tidal wave of voluptuous fruit..." The public went nuts. Petrus' unofficial status sky rocketed.

God knows, I used to buy wine based on his recommendations. I have also profited from quoting Parker in the past. I have sold wines based purely on his scores and have marketed wines as "Parker wines". I know people who have based their entire collection on Parker reviews. They have done well when it came to resale.

Parker is a commercial necessity for many in the industry but not respected by many for his ability to turn a vintage, close a door, elevate a status etc.

I remember when Parker started discovering some of the "new world' wine growing regions. He scored a particular wine 94/100. The producer got pretty excited and charged 4 times more for the next vintage. Others around him followed suit. Soon the whole sub-region was producing Parker wines - big, high alcohol, one dimensional with no shred of elegance about them.

Yes, a prominent wine critic and yes, a very powerful man loved by some and detested by others.

A good discussion.

Cheers,

Lingnoi.

I thought you might have been talking about Heathcote, (near Melbourne), but when I Googled Wild Duck Creek I saw that he had given their Duck's Muck 99/100 (see below), with predictable results for the wine price, the Winery and the region. They do make some good Shiraz though and I will be at the annual Food and Wine show on 2nd/3rd October.

"Wild Duck Creek Estate is one of those cult wineries in Australia, based outside of Melbourne, that achieved much of its acclaim due to a mixture of excellent winemaking techniques (vinification is entirely effected through manual pressing), a winemaker with a keen sense of what good wine (David knows and deeply loves his vines), and of course, that Robert Parker 99-pointer for their flagship "Duck Muck" in the '97 vintage. Jamus Aug 21, 2002"

www.winehouse.com.au/categories.asp?cID=1014&cN=Wild Duck Creek&c=222839

Edited September 22, 2010 by basinboy

[Sao Jiang Mai]

This is great that there is so much interest in wine! At our last event, ItalAsia offered the most rediculously cheap discounts for wine - a decent pinot grigio for 280 baht! - so I am going to keep trying to get these deals and our next event will hopefully be in a less posh venue offering really good bargains so hopefully more people who are interested can come along and try out what is available in Chiang Mai. We are going to do different events. One will be aimed at Thais who want to learn about wine in a Thai language environment, another will be open-to-all taster, then we may do a Thai wine special, then maybe a more expensive posh matching with dinner, etc. etc. Anyway, just to say that if you have any ideas or special requests please do tell us.

[lingnoi1977]

I remember when Parker started discovering some of the "new world' wine growing regions. He scored a particular wine 94/100. The producer got pretty excited and charged 4 times more for the next vintage. Others around him followed suit. Soon the whole sub-region was producing Parker wines - big, high alcohol, one dimensional with no shred of elegance about them.

Yes, a prominent wine critic and yes, a very powerful man loved by some and detested by others.

A good discussion.

Cheers,

Lingnoi.

I thought you might have been talking about Heathcote, (near Melbourne), but when I Googled Wild Duck Creek I saw that he had given their Duck's Muck 99/100 (see below), with predictable results for the wine price, the Winery and the region. They do make some good Shiraz though and I will be at the annual Food and Wine show on 2nd/3rd October.

"Wild Duck Creek Estate is one of those cult wineries in Australia, based outside of Melbourne, that achieved much of its acclaim due to a mixture of excellent winemaking techniques (vinification is entirely effected through manual pressing), a winemaker with a keen sense of what good wine (David knows and deeply loves his vines), and of course, that Robert Parker 99-pointer for their flagship "Duck Muck" in the '97 vintage. Jamus Aug 21, 2002"

Duck Muck was one of the more famous single wines to catch Parkers palate.

He then discovered Barossa Valley, specifically the area around Greenock Creek with its old vine Shiraz (some of it survived the Government vine pull scheme of the late 60's) which made high alcohol, big, unctuous reds. The region went nuts and every producer jumped on the wagon to make "Parker" wines. Recipients of high 90's were Three Rivers, Grenock Creek Winery and Torbreck Vintners.

The point is that the term "Parker" wine became a love/hate term amongst some of the wine fraternity.

The "purists" refused to make Parker wines even if they could and others tried to make made them unashamedly for the buck.

I've tasted lots of Parker wines in their youth. They are mind blowingly powerful and intense. You need a hearty dish to soak them up.

I've seen a few age beyond 10 years and some of them hold up well.

[richard10365]

haha...reading the title of the thread....for a second...I thought we had a new place to complain about things....to whine...haha