Anger Over Red Shirts Riot Autopsy Reports

[yellow1red1]

whybother, for the 3rd or 4rth time, in my posts, there were eye witnesses , it was a crowded place, those 'friends of the victims' know which way they were standing or running (for the ones shot in the back). at least 2 news stories had the eyewitnesses saying which way the bullets came from, but that has been suppressed, if you are a news photographer in a group and the one beside you facing same way drops from a bullet DUH you don't haved to be CSI,, if you are running with friend and bullet takes him the back, only a video would prove your statement is all.

1. from eyewitnesses and some videos, the location 'should' be able to be seen 2. it never will be solved who the killers were there is even one theory its the CIA for C sake (heard from a Thai military sniper!), the black shirts, the Cambodians, the muslims, even, it will never never ever be resolved, EVER. (who shot JFK? btw) 3. if the facts were even made, the other side would not believe it. 4. the idea that solving this killings will bring peace is preponderopiuusly stupid, anyways, if the red, or yellow, or cia, or cambodian or muslim of Black killer snipers were brought to open and everyone believed it, the hand basket would not coming back from Hades.

Thailand's is one velly, velly, messed up past and future.

this topic; this issue is just one little example of news for next decades

what does that simpleton guy always say ?

next

TAWP, in my 1rst post i said it will never be known *who* did it EVER!!!

where the shots came from should not be so hard ... you never answewred my question.

Normally when police questions more than one eyewitness to the same crime they have a lot of problems trying to get a clear picture. People see what they think to have seen. Especially under emotional circumstances the truth if no longer absolute. The more an eyewitness is probed the more he start to believe what he's saying describing. When an eyewitness environment starts insinuating, probing "you were there, weren't you? did they really shoot like crazy? weren't you afraid?". That when stories really start. And no I'm not condemning reds, soldiers, or anyone, just trying to explain that even assuming people co-operate, this investigation isn't easy.

At leastf one of the foreign journalists killed had back against the wall with other journalists who saw him drop! not TOO confusing... how many of the dead got it in the back? which way were they running?

not pointing fingers either, only saying fingers, many, will be pointing, at many; for many, many years..and more.

if i was tortured into hazarding a guess it would be the blacks, but a lot more torture to say WHO they are

[JohnLeech]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

High speed bullets are constructed so that they crumble on impact leaving only fragments that causes more damage.

Both incorrect.

Assuming that the original reporter and the above mean high velocity ammunition (as distinct from low velocity, such as black powder and sub-sonic ammunition) then they are mistaken.

The high velocity rounds currently used by the vast majority of conventional military (5.56mm such as those using the M-16 and Nato forces, 5.45mm for ex-Warsaw Pact using the AK74, and even the 7.62mm short of the AK47) are not designed for maximum penetration, unlike the older 7.62mm long (FN / SLR). In many cases the rounds will remain in the body, particularly where the round is designed to be unstable on impact such as M-16 rounds, which tumble on impact; it is simply not credible that in all these cases there were no bullets found and consequently the type of weapon could not be positively identified, although that would admittedly not give a positive indication of the firer. The only rounds which would usually travel directly through the target are higher velocity, higher calibre rounds such as sniper ammunition - again, it does not seem credible that all those shot were shot by sniper rifles.

Ammunition that is designed or "constructed" to "crumble on impact leaving only fragments that causes more damage" is specifically banned by the Hague Convention and it is not issued to any conventional military forces (including the Thai Army), which only use full metal jacketed ammunition; some police forces use hollow-point or similar ammunition to minimize penetration under certain circumstances, but that is very dfferent from fragmentation rounds which are used for hunting.

[rubl]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

High speed bullets are constructed so that they crumble on impact leaving only fragments that causes more damage.

Both incorrect.

Assuming that the original reporter and the above mean high velocity ammunition (as distinct from low velocity, such as black powder and sub-sonic ammunition) then they are mistaken.

The high velocity rounds currently used by the vast majority of conventional military (5.56mm such as those using the M-16 and Nato forces, 5.45mm for ex-Warsaw Pact using the AK74, and even the 7.62mm short of the AK47) are not designed for maximum penetration, unlike the older 7.62mm long (FN / SLR). In many cases the rounds will remain in the body, particularly where the round is designed to be unstable on impact such as M-16 rounds, which tumble on impact; it is simply not credible that in all these cases there were no bullets found and consequently the type of weapon could not be positively identified, although that would admittedly not give a positive indication of the firer. The only rounds which would usually travel directly through the target are higher velocity, higher calibre rounds such as sniper ammunition - again, it does not seem credible that all those shot were shot by sniper rifles.

Ammunition that is designed or "constructed" to "crumble on impact leaving only fragments that causes more damage" is specifically banned by the Hague Convention and it is not issued to any conventional military forces (including the Thai Army), which only use full metal jacketed ammunition; some police forces use hollow-point or similar ammunition to minimize penetration under certain circumstances, but that is very dfferent from fragmentation rounds which are used for hunting.

I accept the explanation, not my area of expertise anyhow. Only one remark, the part "it is simply not credible that in all these cases there were no bullets found". If there were bullets or fragment left in the body for sure they will have been found. If no bullets/fragments found in the body and the body had been moved (as is the case for many) I'm not sure any bullet found laying around would be really useful.

[TAWP]

only an idiot would talk about autopsies showing bullet direction, when it is eye witnesses and videos that determine this.

I agree, only an idiot would...

The directions of travel of the bullets should be easy, elevation and distance. where the shots were fired 'from' should be made public.

QED.

[jayboy]

Everyone's a wannabe Herashio these days. Crime busting lark all looks so easy. Some people seem to think it really is.

The fact remains that if the murder of civilians on this scale (with the security forces involved) had occurred in Tokyo,London,Washington or Paris the investigation would be well under way and would have credibility.

Here nobody in power gives a toss.They were only rough peasants after all.

Perhaps. But you also know that the kind of demonstration that the redshirts engaged in, armed and n defiance of the law, would have been dispersed within a day or two. The dispersal would have been completed by police forces trained to do this. There would have been injuries, and possibly deaths. And had the demonstrators used their weapons on the police forces there most certainly would have been many deaths amongst the protesters. And yes, these deaths would have been thoroughly investigated.

I partly agree with you.Where I disagree is that I think a more professional approach could have cleared the area without deaths or even serious injury.The problem you correctly identify was to allow the situation to fester and become too prolonged.Once again the precedent was set by the yellow demonstrations.Be that as it may the fact remains that the deaths of unarmed civilians will never be properly investigated in Thailand when the security forces are involved.In other countries this would carry a political price.In Thailand it still might but one doubts it somehow.

[way2muchcoffee]

I partly agree with you.Where I disagree is that I think a more professional approach could have cleared the area without deaths or even serious injury.The problem you correctly identify was to allow the situation to fester and become too prolonged.Once again the precedent was set by the yellow demonstrations.Be that as it may the fact remains that the deaths of unarmed civilians will never be properly investigated in Thailand when the security forces are involved.In other countries this would carry a political price.In Thailand it still might but one doubts it somehow.

I agree with the bulk of what you say here.

We will have to disagree on our speculation about the ability of a trained force to disperse an armed and violent mob without death or serious injury. I do agree that a specially trained force would done the job with significantly fewer casualties.

Edited August 29, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[rixalex]

That fictional TV crime detective isn't the only one who goes by that name. So you never came that name Horatio before (otherwise its difficult to explain why you spelled his name so wrong)

No, i never "came that name before" (sic), although i have come across it in the past. Of course had i known that a judgement was going to made on my intelligence that depended entirely on the ability to correctly spell that one word, i might have made a better effort to commit it to memory. Alas.

well, believe it or not, that says something about your education or the lack of it.

Not.

Were that the case i would be forced to conclude that the person who asked utterly nonsensical questions like, Are that victims of a crime or results of law enforcement? and What did these units when these people got killed?, and who also knows not the difference between personal and personnel, was an imbecile. I refuse to believe that, although of course i respect your right to do so.

Are that victims of a crime or results of law enforcement? Wasn't the city full of extra security personal? What did these units when these people got killed?

[rixalex]

Where I disagree is that I think a more professional approach could have cleared the area without deaths or even serious injury.

Professional approaches require professionally-trained people. Need one say more?

[whybother]

I partly agree with you.Where I disagree is that I think a more professional approach could have cleared the area without deaths or even serious injury.The problem you correctly identify was to allow the situation to fester and become too prolonged.Once again the precedent was set by the yellow demonstrations.Be that as it may the fact remains that the deaths of unarmed civilians will never be properly investigated in Thailand when the security forces are involved.In other countries this would carry a political price.In Thailand it still might but one doubts it somehow.

I wasn't aware of grenades being thrown during the yellow demonstrations ... oh ... yes there were. The reds were throwing grenades at the yellows, and they continued with that precedent during the red protests.

If the reds hadn't been armed and hadn't been shooting at the army, then there probably wouldn't have been any deaths of unarmed civilians.

[jayboy]

Where I disagree is that I think a more professional approach could have cleared the area without deaths or even serious injury.

Professional approaches require professionally-trained people. Need one say more?

Yes I think one needs to.Most of us would agree that the Thai security forces need more training to deal with instances of civil disorder.That's not I think seriously disputed.The other issue however is the complete lack of accountability when things do go wrong.

[Hakuchi]

Where I disagree is that I think a more professional approach could have cleared the area without deaths or even serious injury.

Professional approaches require professionally-trained people. Need one say more?

Just say no one needs another wannabe Herashio expert.

[way2muchcoffee]

Yes I think one needs to.Most of us would agree that the Thai security forces need more training to deal with instances of civil disorder.That's not I think seriously disputed.The other issue however is the complete lack of accountability when things do go wrong.

This lack of accountability is endemic here in Thailand. It seems nobody is ever guilty of anything. Nobody is ever mistaken. Nobody is responsible.

[rixalex]

Yes I think one needs to.Most of us would agree that the Thai security forces need more training to deal with instances of civil disorder.That's not I think seriously disputed.The other issue however is the complete lack of accountability when things do go wrong.

This lack of accountability is endemic here in Thailand. It seems nobody is ever guilty of anything. Nobody is ever mistaken. Nobody is responsible.

Quite so. And for the most part it is simply accepted this way.

[jayboy]

Yes I think one needs to.Most of us would agree that the Thai security forces need more training to deal with instances of civil disorder.That's not I think seriously disputed.The other issue however is the complete lack of accountability when things do go wrong.

This lack of accountability is endemic here in Thailand. It seems nobody is ever guilty of anything. Nobody is ever mistaken. Nobody is responsible.

Quite so. And for the most part it is simply accepted this way.

Traditionally yes but things are changing fast.The current censorship can't control what many perhaps the majority of Thai people are saying.What was unthinkable a decade ago is now common currency.The old patterns of unthinking deference are breaking up visibly.Prestige based on inherited privilege is ebbing away.The existing elite can still manage the situation if astute and far thinking (rather like the traditional English upper class) but inevitably there will be a decline in political influence.The reality however is that in Thailand the elite has been greedy, stupid, and brutal so the signs are not promising.

[rixalex]

Yes I think one needs to.Most of us would agree that the Thai security forces need more training to deal with instances of civil disorder.That's not I think seriously disputed.The other issue however is the complete lack of accountability when things do go wrong.

This lack of accountability is endemic here in Thailand. It seems nobody is ever guilty of anything. Nobody is ever mistaken. Nobody is responsible.

Quite so. And for the most part it is simply accepted this way.

Traditionally yes but things are changing fast.The current censorship can't control what many perhaps the majority of Thai people are saying.What was unthinkable a decade ago is now common currency.The old patterns of unthinking deference are breaking up visibly.Prestige based on inherited privilege is ebbing away.The existing elite can still manage the situation if astute and far thinking (rather like the traditional English upper class) but inevitably there will be a decline in political influence.The reality however is that in Thailand the elite has been greedy, stupid, and brutal so the signs are not promising.

Things might look on the surface like they are changing fast but i would question whether they truly are. For all the political upheaval of late; for all the talk of the poor being given a vioce, systems and structures that perpetuate inequality, injustice and lack of accountability remain firmly in place.

[jayboy]

Things might look on the surface like they are changing fast but i would question whether they truly are. For all the political upheaval of late; for all the talk of the poor being given a vioce, systems and structures that perpetuate inequality, injustice and lack of accountability remain firmly in place.

That's a reasonable and intelligent response:you may indeed be right.I hold to a rather different viewpoint however, namely that it looks on the surface as if the old order is entrenched but that underneath there is a rapid and potentially explosive amount of change occurring.It's precisely this kind of issue that historians and academics pore over.I have never incidentally believed that the current battle is really or at least primarily about poverty.It's when economic prosperity lifts the lumpen peasantry out of the work to eat grindstone that political change happens.Thailand is a much more prosperous country now but the political structure has yet to adapt to the changed circumstances, which can be summarised as the death rattle of the deferential culture.

[rixalex]

Things might look on the surface like they are changing fast but i would question whether they truly are. For all the political upheaval of late; for all the talk of the poor being given a vioce, systems and structures that perpetuate inequality, injustice and lack of accountability remain firmly in place.

That's a reasonable and intelligent response:you may indeed be right.I hold to a rather different viewpoint however, namely that it looks on the surface as if the old order is entrenched but that underneath there is a rapid and potentially explosive amount of change occurring.It's precisely this kind of issue that historians and academics pore over.I have never incidentally believed that the current battle is really or at least primarily about poverty.It's when economic prosperity lifts the lumpen peasantry out of the work to eat grindstone that political change happens.Thailand is a much more prosperous country now but the political structure has yet to adapt to the changed circumstances, which can be summarised as the death rattle of the deferential culture.

Well, i hope you are right.

[rixalex]

Where I disagree is that I think a more professional approach could have cleared the area without deaths or even serious injury.

Professional approaches require professionally-trained people. Need one say more?

Just say no one needs another wannabe Herashio expert.

Quite.

In need about as much as a Hakuchi spelling nazi i would say.

[yellow1red1]

Yes I think one needs to.Most of us would agree that the Thai security forces need more training to deal with instances of civil disorder.That's not I think seriously disputed.The other issue however is the complete lack of accountability when things do go wrong.

This lack of accountability is endemic here in Thailand. It seems nobody is ever guilty of anything. Nobody is ever mistaken. Nobody is responsible.

Quite so. And for the most part it is simply accepted this way.

yes the majority accept,, the few that shine lights on the corrupt get websites blocked, tossed in jail or both

not accepting is decidely unhealthy

when it was Thaksin he silenced opposition & same/same today

possible after next elections it will be the Gov / yellow conflict, who knows?

knobs will keep on turning is the sure thing

------------

I

[animatic]

Everyone's a wannabe Herashio these days. Crime busting lark all looks so easy. Some people seem to think it really is.

What is a Herashio?

Not what. Who. He's a lead TV detective on CSI. Consider yourself fortunate him and the show has passed you by.

Okay i had to google that. There is a character who goes by the name Horatio Caine. Is your Herashio=Horatio?

Never came across that name before or how it is spelled?

While i would agree with you on these wannabe investigators and crime tape experts, you may wanna also do something for your own education before you lecture others.

There is a very famous book series, about a British naval captain, Horatio Hornblower.

It was a common enough man of action name in the past.

[Hakuchi]

What is a Herashio?

Not what. Who. He's a lead TV detective on CSI. Consider yourself fortunate him and the show has passed you by.

Okay i had to google that. There is a character who goes by the name Horatio Caine. Is your Herashio=Horatio?

Never came across that name before or how it is spelled?

While i would agree with you on these wannabe investigators and crime tape experts, you may wanna also do something for your own education before you lecture others.

There is a very famous book series, about a British naval captain, Horatio Hornblower.

It was a common enough man of action name in the past.

Ever heard of Horace aka Horatius or Horatio? An old poet, he coined some phrases like carpe diem and wrote anArs Poetica. He is quite famous too. beats probably that Hornblower guy and for sure this Herashio dude.

I am sure that if continued school after you passed the sixth grade you must have heard of him. Otherwise ...

[jdinasia]

No, I think we would never ever learn the truth. Only to blame those in charge at the time, those with deadlier fire power, over size in number and weaponry, and those who will benefit by the truth untold. I don't need a doctorate degree, nor hard evident to point my fingers at TG and RTA, CRES and DSI who are hindering the case. To say the reds shot themselves is insulting.

"To say the reds shot themselves is insulting." Correct.

As for the rest I don't need a doctorate degree, nor hard evidence to point my fingers to the sky and start orating. And before I forget "Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam", as always IMHO.

LOL

But to say that some people in the pay of the biggest red leader shot some pawns to garner international sympathy isn't insulting and very likely is nothing but the truth.

To say that you don't need evidence to lay the blame on someone though .... well .....

Those who would benefit from Reds dying in a public manner .... that would be .. not the government, not the CRES, not the DSI .. it would be those that wanted the reds to get the sympathy and those that wanted the government to look harsh or cruel. Who wanted that? Thaksin and his thugs.

Right, so if (God forbid) you were to shuffle off this mortal coil early, then you'd agree that those in receipt of your life insurance should automatically be investigated for criminal activity.

Your line of reasoning is somewhat simplistic. Got anything a bit more sophisticated that we can take more seriously?

huh?

Do you think that in the case of a suspicious death the first people looked at are not those that have the most to gain? Automatically? Nah! If you die from old age etc .. but if you die from a bullet ... yeah!

Feel free to look at the results of "if you should shuffle off this mortal coil" in any manner that is at all suspicious .. who the most likely killer will be. I do note that you didn't discuss the events and just tried to discredit the post without providing ANY substance

[chantorn]

Didn't they say "no news is good news"?

[rubl]

Tharit to consult DSI information panel before releasing autopsy results

The Department of Special Investigation chief said Monday that the DSI has received autopsy results of 89 people killed during the political turbulences in April and May.

But, Tharit Pengdit said, the DSI has yet to check with its information committee as to whether the autopsy results could be made public.

Tharit said the DSI has yet to work with the Office of the Attorney General, the Metropolitan Police Bureau and the Central Institute of Forensic Medicine to verify the results.

Tharit also urged the public and the Pheu Thai Party members who witnessed the killings of the 89 persons to come forward and testify to the DSI.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Tharit-to-consult-DSI-information-panel-before-rel-30138334.html

The Nation

[rubl]

Tharit to consult DSI information panel before releasing autopsy results

... middle part removed ...

Tharit also urged the public and the Pheu Thai Party members who witnessed the killings of the 89 persons to come forward and testify to the DSI.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Tharit-to-consult-DSI-information-panel-before-rel-30138334.html

The Nation

Well, since one of our members had said

"I can confirm 100% seeing a guy flying a flag who was of no threat shot in the head, his head melted im sure many on here saw it, there was the nurse and those in the temple these are the higher profile MURDERS."

( )

may I suggest he reports to the DSI and helps them out ?

Edited September 20, 2010 by rubl

[tomyummer]

I'm so sick of this. Who cares how they died? They died! These people were at a protest where they knew there was going to be violence. Even the reporters know there's a level of danger trying to cover demonstrations or rallies. What, they think a stupid green armlet is going make bullets bounce off of them? The government gave the warnings, time after time, in fact to many people they were too lenient.

Your relatives were shot! By which side? Who knows? During a state of emergency what the heck are you doing in the streets?! Not to be insensitive, but if you bring a gun to a rally or see that your neighbor is packin', why stick around? At least the government gives some compensation even though it's not much. Quit whining and face the fact that your loved ones chose to be in the firing line or wanted to watch and got hit by accident (that's what you get for rubber necking). Worse yet, you think that the demonstrators/protesters are marksmen? Heck no. There's bound to be friendly fire and collateral damage.

Go investigate a worthy cause in need of real forensics and criminal science, like finding the Saudi jewels and the missing 'businessman'. On a whole, THAT case being solved would do Thailand much better than this red/yellow debacle.

[yellow1red1]

stop the presses

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/399405-we-are-all-to-blame-for-the-political-rift-in-thailand/page__pid__3898256__st__25#entry3898256

The Nation's senior photographer, Chaiwat Pumpuang, who was hit by a bullet in the Rajaprarob-Lang Nam area on May 15 by trigger-happy soldiers who were firing at a group of rock-throwing, slingshot-wielding protestors just metres away, is testimony to the fact that perhaps they don't know ... or just don't care. All Chaiwat got for his trouble was a hug from Army spokesman Colonel Sansern Kaewkumnerd, who visited him at the hospital.