Some Recognised Definitions

[JohnLeech]

I am not trying to re-kindle the tedious debate over sexual self-identity which has already been covered at more than sufficient length (so any posts on that subject will be off-topic, as will anything about the technical differences between transgender and transexual!), but am simply trying to highlight the problems and dangers of categorising people as anything when those categories mean very different things to different people.

Despite a number of recent assorted threads on "ladyboys" none of them attempted to give any definition of what they considered "ladyboys" to be. The originator of the primary one refused to try to validate his poll by explaining what he meant by the term for the purposes of the poll despite a number of requests from a number of posters, and Thai Visa's apparently official position is that "ladyboys are not gay" and "the subject of ladyboys has no place in the gay forum", so maybe it would help to see what the term means in the rest of the English speaking world.

Clearly there are ladyboys and there are ladyboys, and the term covers a wide range, from the slightly fem gay male to the full transexual who has had the appropriate operations and is effectively both mentally and physically (at least outwardly) female. Just as all elephants are animals but not all animals are elephants, so all male to female transexuals could be called ladyboys but not all ladyboys are transexuals or consider themselves female - far from it.

The following are unedited definitions (apart from the Urban Dictionary, which had two pages of assorted definitions) from all the dictionaries/references I could find with a search for a definition of the word ladyboy, in which I have highlighted the relevant parts:

Wordnik/Wiktionary/Ninjawords: An effeminate homosexual man or one who adopts a feminine appearance, especially an intergender person.

Wikipedia: a male-to-female transgender person or an effeminate gay male in Thailand.

Babylon 8: kathoey, shemale, one who has undergone a sex change from male-to-female; effeminate gay male.

Encyclo: Ladyboy is British slang for a male homosexual.

Collins: a transvestite or transsexual, esp one from the Far East

Urban dictionary (edited): A boy or young man who dresses as a girl or wishes to dress or act like a girl, especially from the Thai culture.

Often used to describe a young, gay Thai boy. Sometimes used by Thai's as a general word to describe any gay boy or man.

Specifically a Thai transvestite, but can be used in general to describe any Asian homosexual.

The computer geeks that have defined this word previously have obviously never been with a real woman and there are several tell tale signs that any red-blooded male can use to spot a ladyboy. …. But only if you want to. The phrase, "I honestly thought they were women" does not cut it with me closet boy.

A feminine man, possibly a hockey player.

I can't follow the "hockey player" reference, but the remainder confirm what I said in an earlier post:

Without any sort of definition of "ladyboy" (and in this case a picture doesn't speak a thousand words) I am afraid the poll is meaningless.

The term is so used (and abused) that it encompasses anything from those who have had "the full op" (bits added and bits taken away) to those who are simply "a bit fem", via transgenders, transexuals and transvestites (many of whom are not gay at all).

Even in Thai the term "katoey" covers much the same field, and slight differences in pronunciation refer to very different beings. "Katoy", for example, means post-op, while "katöy" means fem (or "ladyboy short hair", as it has been described to me!).

Edited August 30, 2010 by JohnLeech

[isanbirder]

Thanks, John, for a bit of sense on a widely misunderstood topic.

[tombkk]

Even in Thai the term "katoey" covers much the same field, and slight differences in pronunciation refer to very different beings. "Katoy", for example, means post-op, while "katöy" means fem (or "ladyboy short hair", as it has been described to me!).

Really? That's news to me. Please write in Thai, so I can look it up in a dictionary.

[peridot]

Thanks, John, for some actual logic and factual information on a word with a thousand definitions. My thai boyfriend does not know about two pronunciations for kathoey, only one Thai word. He uses it to describe a range of biological men, from anyone slightly feminine to complete male-to-female sex changes.

I chuckle at the idea that ladyboys are not gay. My gaydar sure picks up on them, and their gaydar picks up on me, everywhere I have been in the world. Whether or not there is a sexual interest, there is certainly a recognition that I don't have with biological women or straight men.

[JohnLeech]

Even in Thai the term "katoey" covers much the same field, and slight differences in pronunciation refer to very different beings. "Katoy", for example, means post-op, while "katöy" means fem (or "ladyboy short hair", as it has been described to me!).

Really? That's news to me. Please write in Thai, so I can look it up in a dictionary.

I don't think you'll have any problems finding the word กะเทย (katoy) in most dictionaries, however I think that's probably the only version you'll find - I don't think there is a Thai version of the Urban Dictionary just yet!

Variants are probably not even specifically "Thai" as such, as it is very much slang and more likely to be Issan, based on Lao or Khmer, particularly the Khmer equivalent of kteuy, which again covers two distinct groups ("long hair" and "short hair"), as I believe the Lao equivalent does.

My partner can pick them out from miles away, whether they are on the back of a motorbike or driving the local ice delivery truck, and he enjoys pointing them out to me simply because I often miss them (at least at a distance!), but the technicalities are only mentioned out of interest rather than as being of any importance. At a recent birthday party with some Lao friends, for example, he told me that one had had "everything cut off", while another still had "everything". It didn't make any difference at all as to how they got on with each other, as everyone was just accepted for who they were rather than what they were, without any thought of categorising or judging each other.

As an afterthought, it only just struck me that the one who still had "everything" used the men's toilet to use the mirror when the others used the Men's, but the Ladies when going with the one with "everything cut off"; at the time I didn't even notice, which must mean something, but I suppose that would put them in the "versatile" category.

[Jingthing]

Despite a number of recent assorted threads on "ladyboys" none of them attempted to give any definition of what they considered "ladyboys" to be. The originator of the primary one refused to try to validate his poll by explaining what he meant by the term for the purposes of the poll despite a number of requests from a number of posters, and Thai Visa's apparently official position is that "ladyboys are not gay" and "the subject of ladyboys has no place in the gay forum", so maybe it would help to see what the term means in the rest of the English speaking world.

I doubt I will post much on this thread, but I feel the need to rebut the OP's assertions because they are TOTALLY FALSE.

1. I am the originator of the so called primary ladyboy thread. Read the thread and you will see that I talk about what ladyboys are a number of times. It is all in the thread. You may quote a snippet out of context from that thread to try to refute this, but that doesn't wash. It is all there but you have to read the thread (will not repeat myself here).

2. It is most certainly not Thavisa's official policy that ladyboys are not gay. It is a known fact that the majority of psychologically transgendered people do not self identify as gay. However, many of course do.

3. It is most certainly not a firm rule that ladyboy topics don't belong in the gay forum. That depends on what exactly the thread is about and also if the thread is clearly a troll type topic - such as the titled Is Dressing Up In Female Clothes Considered Being Gay. That is likely the one the OP would use as proof of his theory, but it is nothing of the kind. If that was the official policy, why was the popular thread about ladyboy attraction allowed to stand in the gay forum?

Carry on with your definition discussions among yourselves. Have a blast! I am not overly interested in ladyboys, but I was interested in what kinds of people are ATTRACTED to ladyboys, specifically whether gay men are generally attracted to them or not. (Not.)

Edited August 31, 2010 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

OP (and others):

First of all, you should be careful in ascribing official 'policies' to the Thaivisa gay subforum, as it comes perilously close to discussion of moderation (you can find the official policies on this in the rules). If it's not in the rule list (cf.) and not in the pinned threads regarding gay subforum policies, it's not an 'official' policy. I would suggest ascribing your observations to the MEMBERS of Thaivisa. If you have an issue with a moderator's stated POLICY, you may PM the moderator to discuss it. Moderators do, also, have opinions which they sometimes express just like other members and such opinions do not count as policies of the forum.

Whether you like it or not, the typical interpretation of 'ladyboys' in the expat-in-Thailand population (the majority of our members) is nearly fully transgendered/transexual men who have almost always gone through steps including hormone treatment or even surgery, and who assume the public persona of women through wearing female clothes, etc. While I am aware of other shades of meaning, they are not the default assumption by typical members of this forum. It is not, therefore, unreasonable to assume as a forum member here that when one sees a 'ladyboy' thread it is typically about individuals who appear to be women. Also, typically, most of our 'gay' identified members do not find themselves particularly attracted to such women, while it is ever more evident that our 'straight' identified members have a special interest in them.

I am more than willing to extend protection through this subforum to the interests of all sexual minorities (including transexuals and transgendered), however, as the typical definition of homosexuality applies to men or women who prefer individuals of the SAME gender, it seems something of a misnomer to call 'gay' those straight-identified individuals who are attracted to ladyboys as previously defined. Furthermore, as the ladyboys as previously defined typically themselves are positioned to seek the 'opposite' gender of their newly adopted role, it seems odd to label them as stereotypical 'homosexuals.' This point has been raised in these types of discussions before- there doesn't seem to be a specific name for the 'ladyboy fanciers,' who very, very often are NOT gay-identified (would not call themselves gay).

As those interested in the ladyboys-as-previously-defined are largely straight, there has been some discussion of whether ladyboy threads always belong in the gay subforum (especially as much of the straight-identified ladyboy-fancier members have the tiresome habit of projecting their interest- quite incorrectly- upon the majority of the gay subforum members) and occasionally ladyboy threads have been left in straight sections of the forum for this reason, just as most of the ladyboy-as-previously-defined nightlife seems to wind up in straight entertainment districts.

In short, there is no objection to discussion of these topics, but you're rowing upstream as far as trying to position the majority of gay expat members as interested in what is typically understood on this forum to be ladyboys. You're perfectly entitled to interpret the word for yourself as including very fem gay men, but you shouldn't be surprised or offended if few around here understand or agree with your interpretation. And finally, no more discussion of your interpretation of Thaivisa's 'official' positions unless you want to attract the wrong kind of moderator attention.

[tombkk]

Even in Thai the term "katoey" covers much the same field, and slight differences in pronunciation refer to very different beings. "Katoy", for example, means post-op, while "katöy" means fem (or "ladyboy short hair", as it has been described to me!).

Really? That's news to me. Please write in Thai, so I can look it up in a dictionary.

I don't think you'll have any problems finding the word กะเทย (katoy) in most dictionaries, however I think that's probably the only version you'll find - I don't think there is a Thai version of the Urban Dictionary just yet!

Then please spell the new word you have discovered. This is highly interesting.

Variants are probably not even specifically "Thai" as such, as it is very much slang and more likely to be Issan, based on Lao or Khmer, particularly the Khmer equivalent of kteuy, which again covers two distinct groups ("long hair" and "short hair"), as I believe the Lao equivalent does.

My partner can pick them out from miles away, whether they are on the back of a motorbike or driving the local ice delivery truck, and he enjoys pointing them out to me simply because I often miss them (at least at a distance!), but the technicalities are only mentioned out of interest rather than as being of any importance. At a recent birthday party with some Lao friends, for example, he told me that one had had "everything cut off", while another still had "everything". It didn't make any difference at all as to how they got on with each other, as everyone was just accepted for who they were rather than what they were, without any thought of categorising or judging each other.

As an afterthought, it only just struck me that the one who still had "everything" used the men's toilet to use the mirror when the others used the Men's, but the Ladies when going with the one with "everything cut off"; at the time I didn't even notice, which must mean something, but I suppose that would put them in the "versatile" category.

Thanks for your excourse into Lao and Khmer, but we are talking about Thai language here. (Maybe we should move this to the Thai Language forum?) You are saying there are two different words, depending on whether they have long or short hair.

Whether ladyboys can be picked out is a completely different issue, or which toilet they use. You seem to be very interested. However, I just want to learn about the second word... Write it down for me, and I'll check with local urbanites.

[Jingthing]

Post withdrawn, started a new thread instead.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Jingthing

[sbk]

and given that, I think we've had enough ladyboy threads in the gay forum.

If you wish to discuss the etymology of the thai word for kathoey please start a new thread in the Thai language forum discussing the Thai word specifically rather than some "urban dictionary" post.

//CLOSED//