Justice For Sale, Freedom For A Fee

[jimmorriosn]

Yawn - anything new, anywhere?

Those who get enraged about this story are either naive or new to Thailand (and similar countries).

similar countries? Like my native United States? These prices are bargain basement considering what Marc Rich must have paid Bill Clinton for his pardon- an action Jimmy Carter, probably the only honest person to ever inhabit the White House, described as disgraceful. What about Obama's gang of "czars" he has appointed to cure the problems of America? No corruption there. That surely doesnt excuse what goes on here and in "similar countries" but lets not take any moral high grounds. Corruption is everwhere, the fact that this involves a pedophile does make it more disgusting but no less wrong.

[Deeral]

No! - the underlying problem is the corruption in the Thai legal system - for ALL

This coupled with incompetent policing in all areas allows Thailand to be a target for ALL kinds of criminals whether Thai nationals or foreigners.to see this particular case as pertinent is really misleading - it is just a example of the failures that are inherent in all aspects of Thai law.

your mistaken conclusion is proven by your own words.

yes, incompetent policing would, logically, encourage targeting by criminals. but there can be no targeting without the prior existance of the criminal. THAT is the "underlying" problem.

moreover, as a separate matter, it is appropriate for the farang to consider the farang's contribution to this problem before he obsseses with an alleged Thai angle to it. and that would seem particulary true when it is a thai journalist who has called attention to the alleged issue with bent judges. no point for the farang to pile on when a bent farang was not only the original source of the criminal act in this case, but in so many other similar ones.

or so methinks.

"but there can be no targeting without the prior existance of the criminal." - duh???

[M71]

Yawn - anything new, anywhere?

Those who get enraged about this story are either naive or new to Thailand (and similar countries).

similar countries? Like my native United States? These prices are bargain basement considering what Marc Rich must have paid Bill Clinton for his pardon- an action Jimmy Carter, probably the only honest person to ever inhabit the White House, described as disgraceful. What about Obama's gang of "czars" he has appointed to cure the problems of America? No corruption there. That surely doesnt excuse what goes on here and in "similar countries" but lets not take any moral high grounds. Corruption is everwhere, the fact that this involves a pedophile does make it more disgusting but no less wrong.

Good post - Jim understands just how thoroughly corrupt western countries really are including there court systems. There are different rules in Western countries yes - but these rules matter not in a 'court of law'

[BarryM]

I'm shocked at allegations of bribery. Surely the accepted form in vt villas is to donate a building for public officials?

[Siripon]

One of my nephews studying law told me that the student who scores the highest score in the finals remains the senior judge of his year for life.

He will automatically become President of the Court in later years, one reason for this is to prevent jockeying and possible financial incentives for positions.

1. Is the position on;y open to males?

2. I trust there is not an auction involved?

1. There were many women in the most recent group of newly qualified judges who were granted an audience with the king recently.

[elcent]

what's wrong when things become a bit more transparent? We need more of this.

I think it is not about the Swede but the equality and trades in justice system as a whole.

Not too long ago a judge in a western country complained to me that files went/get missing in ongoing court cases. It's a daily occurrence.

[asiawatcher]

Some years back there were accusations brought against a man in Chiang Mai (Farang) after he was acquitted of murder when he admitted the crime! There were links to the judiciary but never proven (case just went away). There have also been numerous 'allegations' against the judiciary but will leave that alone.

Look at 'system'. As long as there is no jury to judge, the man on the bench is all powerful. In my opinion, the French Romanesque system here is backward and out dated but it serves a purpose in that justice is swift albeit sometimes questionable. As a registered member of a foreign country's judicial establishment I can say that after 28 years in that role, I shake my head in disbelief of many of the judgements passed.

But right now - of course any system is wide open to corruption when only one person makes the decisions, so if the allegations by the Pattaya 'stringer' are correct then it bears out faults within the system. Just another item in a long line of lists requiring attention in Thailand I'm afraid.

[mrchips377]

I'm just amazed that so many westerners don't realize that spending tea money in Thailand (and in many countries in the world) in order to facilitate circumvention of laws, taxes, and anything else you can think of, is very normal behaviour for anybody with enough money. This is a major cultural difference between the WASP culture in Europe and U.S. and other cultures. This behaviour is so prevalent in many countries in the world that to do it is normal and not to do it is the exception. Please wake up and realize this. Such corruption should not be excused and it's prevalence should not prevent people wanting to try to change it. However it may never be possible to change it. Such corruption is a different way of doing things and has been going on for thousands of years.

Nowadays in western countries, this kind of corruption is rare but on the other hand sometimes criminals can excape justice due to technicalities or use of human rights or use of the system, so justice is never perfect everywhere. The availability of corruption does introduce more flexibility into the system which sometimes has benefits for people's rights and real justice, but mostly it just enables richer people to avoid taxes or justice, which is not a good thing for society.

[Samuian]

It appears that many foreigners seriously underestimate the extent of corruption, graft and nepotism throughout Thai society, especially in political, legal. etc

Well, understandable, as things are, who would bite off the hand that feeds?

It's a society of unquestioned obedience to who or what ever is an inch above in the social ranking, often manipulated and then abused dependency, clan affiliation followed by a shoulder-to-shoulder stance; closing of ranks - unfettered by any scruples and widespread incompetence based on the aforementioned facts and very poor education covered by patriotic "we are XXXX people" and the magic formula that is above anything which is: "Sabai Jai" and "Sanook, Sanook" that is the very axis of the xxxx universe!

I'm not sure I understand your point.Although as a simple generalisation of thai society - you may have some points, i don't see how this relates to the underestimating of corruption by foreigners.

Sorry?

You are "not sure if you understand my points" but the same time you quote that it is a "simple generalization of Thai society".

if it wouldn't be so, why then a few post's up, member "geriatrickid" writes that he "admires the courage of the PDN to go into this topic"!

And what has "corruption and bribery in the legal system of Thailand" to do with corrupt practices of "foreigners" - is it so that the circumstances that "they too" makes anybody involved in these practices innocent?

It starts on the streets where traffic fines end up in private pockets...and if this is not a sign that this social illness is widely spread and widely accepted by society in general?

Sure there are, like everywhere else those "honest to bones souls", but does the practice of "looking the other way" prevent crime or does it support it indirectly?

[ijwelch]

Whilst others are so annoying.

Nobody said this sort of thing is unique to Thailand.

Exactly. Some people are so naive.

Corruption is in every court and legal system all around the world. What do you think happens to a guy from the streets of harlem with a public defender vs. a white yuppie with a high dollar attorney who lives in uptown Manhattan given the same crime.

[chantorn]

Thailand to talk bad about judges and courts is criminal, and will land you in jail.

[moskito]

I am not a Khun Thaksin fan really, but I belive things like these wont happend if he is in charge of the country. He was so far the only one who fights corruption.....

[tomyummer]

I am not a Khun Thaksin fan really, but I belive things like these wont happend if he is in charge of the country. He was so far the only one who fights corruption.....

Oooooh boy. I'm afraid to ask.

[BSJ]

I'd like to see the sicko's of this world brough to justice for their dirty deeds. But once your outside the rigid (but not perfect) system of the Western world we all know how flexible the judiciary can be. And it's not just LOS I am talking about!

[t36ony]

For me, it's just a question of what is right and wrong? And if you do wrong you should be punished not matter who you are.

Abusing minors = totally wrong......should be punished

Taking money to change the law = totally wrong.....should be punished

This is the same all over the world.

[t36ony]

For me, it's just a question of what is right and wrong? And if you do wrong you should be punished not matter who you are.

Abusing minors = totally wrong......should be punished

Taking money to change the law = totally wrong.....should be punished

This is the same all over the world. Upholding the law is morally right and we (as citizens of the world) should pride ourselves on that.

[YouYouYou]

I will start this post with the legal words "Without Prejudice" (as to my own admission of bribery) :

This is not new and has been reported over the years ... a judge taking a bribe. Yes, it happens in Thailand and many many countries around the world, even our little western havens eh. Taking a bribe is merely a human condition and greed takes over. No one in any authoritative poistion is exempt from the temptation to take a handsome bribe, but it is the will and character of the individual that says yes or no.

So are judges exempt? ...No they are not, and for some people who sit on the high horse of rightousness frowning upon this activity, whether it is a judge or a traffic cop, to me, it's all the same, and yes I've given a traffic cop a bribe to avoid a ticket. So, am I as guilty for doing that as the judge and his 'alledged received bribe'? ....probably, as it takes two parties to make this work; the bribe giver and the bribe receiver.

'No one is innocent' ....as they say:ph34r:

[BOS2BKK]

Once again I am at a loss to see all of you sitting up on your high horses. Thailand is suffering the same growing pains all of our nations faced at one point of another. The Thais handle them differently for sure, and it is a shame they couldn't learn from our mistakes, but everyone is on their own journey. The hysterical thing is the elitism present in so many of these comments.

The original article referred to Baht 70M? Last time I checked that was about $2.2Million USD. Which of you is from a country where a judge could not be bribed for 2 Million dollars? I am certain I could get away with Murder in America for a third of that amount in well placed bribes. Good on the Thais for milking this pervert for every penny he has. If he doesn't have punishment coming to him, at least justice can bleed him dry. The difference between Thailand and the west is our pretense that these things don't exist. Just like the westerners who cruise Soi Cowboy in disdain, and say things like "this would never be tolerated in my country" I have news for you, it goes on just like this everywhere. The only difference is the amount of daylight hitting it.

You think for one second this alleged pervert didn't ply his trade in his home country? Of course he did. He is here for the same reason all of you are. His money goes further in Thailand.

Feel bad for the poor exploited children who have their lives destroyed by savage perverts, but get off your hypocritical soap boxes about Thai corruption.

[Deeral]

Once again I am at a loss to see all of you sitting up on your high horses. Thailand is suffering the same growing pains all of our nations faced at one point of another. The Thais handle them differently for sure, and it is a shame they couldn't learn from our mistakes, but everyone is on their own journey. The hysterical thing is the elitism present in so many of these comments.

The original article referred to Baht 70M? Last time I checked that was about $2.2Million USD. Which of you is from a country where a judge could not be bribed for 2 Million dollars? I am certain I could get away with Murder in America for a third of that amount in well placed bribes. Good on the Thais for milking this pervert for every penny he has. If he doesn't have punishment coming to him, at least justice can bleed him dry. The difference between Thailand and the west is our pretense that these things don't exist. Just like the westerners who cruise Soi Cowboy in disdain, and say things like "this would never be tolerated in my country" I have news for you, it goes on just like this everywhere. The only difference is the amount of daylight hitting it.

You think for one second this alleged pervert didn't ply his trade in his home country? Of course he did. He is here for the same reason all of you are. His money goes further in Thailand.

Feel bad for the poor exploited children who have their lives destroyed by savage perverts, but get off your hypocritical soap boxes about Thai corruption.

"Thailand is suffering the same growing pains all of our nations faced at one point of another." - now if ever there was an elitist or "high-horse" comment, it has to be that.

Many people see Thailand as "Third world" or developing" - well the latter maybe - the former is just nonsense - this is the modern world and Thailand is a "grown-up", wealthy nation - the wealth is and poer is distributed very inequitably but this does not give it an "excuse" or get-out clause. It is a country of equal status to any other and has responsibilities which it shuns.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Deeral

[zerod1]

Come on.... If this report has any substance, the true evaluation of the law system seems to be getting a bit bent out of shape, for the want of a bit of finger pointing. The report clearly states that he was ARRESTED, REMANDED, and is undergoing a THOROUGH INVESTIGATION, he has also has (at least) 10 appeals for bail rejected. Doesn't this tell us that the justice system is not for sale? This guy is obviously filthy rich, so why didn't he get the opportunity to pay his way out of prosecution as soon as the Old Bill banged on his door?

This report and (more than a handful of replies) seems to pour total dejection onto the entire legal processes present today in Thailand, in an almost generalising sense. Truth is, this report (without reading between the lines), obviously displays to us, that the legal system is in fact honourable to the law in general, and there are the 'odd bad apples'. That is putting the odd crack in it.

This report lost it focus after the 2nd sentence, and launched an attack on actually quite a good legal infrastructure, instead of the real bones of the report, which should read more like... Oh no, not another twisted deviant dragging the word farang through the mud again here in Thailand.

I wasn't aware of this forum when Paul Gadd was doing the rounds. I wonder what his alias was?? Probably something stupid like Gary Glitter or something. But lets be fair and as legal systems go, you just have to look at the UK system, if you got money, you get off light, if you are broke, you're in the clink. Believe me, it's as true as the nose on your face. That's one system you can say is GENERALLY crap and unfair.

[BOS2BKK]

"Thailand is suffering the same growing pains all of our nations faced at one point of another." - now if ever there was an elitist or "high-horse" comment, it has to be that.

Many people see Thailand as "Third world" or developing" - well the latter maybe - the former is just nonsense - this is the modern world and Thailand is a "grown-up", wealthy nation - the wealth is and poer is distributed very inequitably but this does not give it an "excuse" or get-out clause. It is a country of equal status to any other and has responsibilities which it shuns.

I think you missed the point of the statement.

In reply to your comments I will say this. Bangkok is modern. Thailand is a developing third world Nation. To think any differently is naive to the point of delusional. The Thais have been flirting with modern first world concepts for a hundred years, but never quite embraced them. They were doing well under a previous PM who shall remain nameless, but the minor aristocrats saw to it that all that forward progress was flushed down the drain. The Kingdom is a shining star among SEA nations, but if you think it is a modern, grown-up Nation, then you have been here way too long. Thailand is by all quantifiable standards a developing Nation.

[Deeral]

"Thailand is suffering the same growing pains all of our nations faced at one point of another." - now if ever there was an elitist or "high-horse" comment, it has to be that.

Many people see Thailand as "Third world" or developing" - well the latter maybe - the former is just nonsense - this is the modern world and Thailand is a "grown-up", wealthy nation - the wealth is and poer is distributed very inequitably but this does not give it an "excuse" or get-out clause. It is a country of equal status to any other and has responsibilities which it shuns.

I think you missed the point of the statement.

In reply to your comments I will say this. Bangkok is modern. Thailand is a developing third world Nation. To think any differently is naive to the point of delusional. The Thais have been flirting with modern first world concepts for a hundred years, but never quite embraced them. They were doing well under a previous PM who shall remain nameless, but the minor aristocrats saw to it that all that forward progress was flushed down the drain. The Kingdom is a shining star among SEA nations, but if you think it is a modern, grown-up Nation, then you have been here way too long. Thailand is by all quantifiable standards a developing Nation.

THe fact that you see fit to use the expression third world at all belies a lack of real understanding of what Thailand is. THe expression is defunct.

Developing yes third world is not an expression tht anyone with any inkling can use.

But your description is too simplistic.

people like to see Thailand in the terms you describe because it makes them happy; they like to pigeon-hole nations to fit their own perceptions. unfortunately it also leads them to misread things. THailand is a wealthy exporting nation with a corrupt ruling elite and a saky infrastructure, but making excuses on the basis of this is pintless and not based on the realities of the country.

Check out Thailand's world economic ratings - you'll be in for a shock. Just because the distribution of wealth is appallingly lopsided it does not mean the country is in anyway....what was the expression you erroneously used?.......oh yes "Third World".