Stephen Hawking Says That God Did Not

[churchill]

Hawkins seems to me on the verge of genius and you say

(quote from MrRichard2009)

'He wants to take credit for black holes ? get real ..... He is just a cripple'

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited September 11, 2010 by churchill

[msg362]

I think Mr Hawking is attempted to put the mystery of existence into a formula so he can sleep well at night.

What he has ascertained does not explain why there is something instead of nothing, nor how order can come from chaos.

I think I will read his book someday, but I am disappointed that he appears to chosen a hypothesis that is flawed from the beginning.

Wel well,

Interesting to meet someone who understands physics better than Stephen Hawking and is in a position to say his hypothesis is flawed! Congratulations . And to do this without even reading his book!, truly miraculous!.

( PS I think it is Professor Hawkins BTW)

but the point that I really can't grasp is that, if there was not some form of 'creator' ( I'm not talking about a personal intervening god of the north african desert) why does the universe have rules/ why is it not just chaos? where did the rules come from?

Edited September 11, 2010 by msg362

[churchill]

Stephen Hawking Asks, What Is Reality?

Book Excerpt

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,2017262,00.html

[jayinoz]

I think Mr Hawking is attempted to put the mystery of existence into a formula so he can sleep well at night.

What he has ascertained does not explain why there is something instead of nothing, nor how order can come from chaos.

I think I will read his book someday, but I am disappointed that he appears to chosen a hypothesis that is flawed from the beginning.

Hawkins wins a Nobel Prize each time he recreates his Hypothesis- reading his book about how to explain everything- left a mere mortal like myself bewildered.

I guess that was the intention- as it is all simply guessimations and contradictions about nothing we know about, as yet.

I have often said would Hawkins mind be used best in solving the world economic crisis, global warming or other disasters of the world. Yet the field that motivates him the most we really do not get any benefit from, other than being curious about the topics.

Anyway always a challenging read...:sleepy:

Edited September 11, 2010 by jayinoz

[MAJIC]

So, if there is or were a god that created everything, where did that god come from and if  he\she\it took only one week to create the earth why the rush job?...could have taken more time over it, made earth a bit bigger and Germany a bit smaller or something.......

Have you ever thought that that God is all there is? In that case how could He come from something?

Creating the Earth is a small thing, making matter from nothing, that's a very big deal.

In order to believe this theory,we as humans would need to suspend logic,or agree logic is nonsense, a manmade idea/invention,with no real purpose.

Lets face it the scientists can claim whatever they will,the Universe cant be explained by an inferior intelligence,such as mankind,no more Than a Monkey could explain Nuclear Physics.

If God is "all there is"then He,she,it must have come from nothing,which in our logic is impossible.

[farangUSA]

"A Hitch Hikers Guide to the Universe" may shed some light on this subject .

[David006]

So, if there is or were a god that created everything, where did that god come from and if  he\she\it took only one week to create the earth why the rush job?...could have taken more time over it, made earth a bit bigger and Germany a bit smaller or something.......

:cheesy: :cheesy:

[David006]

So, if there is or were a god that created everything, where did that god come from and if  he\she\it took only one week to create the earth why the rush job?...could have taken more time over it, made earth a bit bigger and Germany a bit smaller or something.......

:cheesy: :cheesy:

Seriously though...some good info at Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God#The_problem_of_the_supernaturalg m

My main question has always been...where is this deity when kids are starving and millions of believers are being abused and murdered in his/her name..?? Come on mate falling down on the job methinks..

[canuckamuck]

So, if there is or were a god that created everything, where did that god come from and if  he\she\it took only one week to create the earth why the rush job?...could have taken more time over it, made earth a bit bigger and Germany a bit smaller or something.......

Have you ever thought that that God is all there is? In that case how could He come from something?

Creating the Earth is a small thing, making matter from nothing, that's a very big deal.

In order to believe this theory,we as humans would need to suspend logic,or agree logic is nonsense, a manmade idea/invention,with no real purpose.

Lets face it the scientists can claim whatever they will,the Universe cant be explained by an inferior intelligence,such as mankind,no more Than a Monkey could explain Nuclear Physics.

If God is "all there is"then He,she,it must have come from nothing,which in our logic is impossible.

No need to suspend logic. It is God that you do not understand, God does not begin or end, so in the case of origin there can only be God because everything else requires an origin. He is not part of a creation, He simply is.

[rodcourt49]

So, if there is or were a god that created everything, where did that god come from and if  he\she\it took only one week to create the earth why the rush job?...could have taken more time over it, made earth a bit bigger and Germany a bit smaller or something.......

Have you ever thought that that God is all there is? In that case how could He come from something?

Creating the Earth is a small thing, making matter from nothing, that's a very big deal.

If god is all there is how can god be a 'he'.......don't tell me....old man, clouds, long flowing white beard, cherubs,....

..he must be a busy guy..he has also forgotten to keep an appointment he made 40 thousand years ago when he said to the aborogines 'just wait there'.

[GeorgeO]

Is there not a physical world explained by science - and a spiritual world that cannot be explained by science - The Universe is Physical so can be explained ?

Of course, but the physical is a manifestation of the spiritual. Science can discover the physical laws but not necessarily the purpose.

'but the physical is a manifestation of the spiritual'

How?

Through the application of infinite wisdom

Wouldn't infinite wisdom use the physical as its base, creating the spiritual so as to maintain order? If you do X, then "God" will smite you!

[GeorgeO]

So, if there is or were a god that created everything, where did that god come from and if he\she\it took only one week to create the earth why the rush job?...could have taken more time over it, made earth a bit bigger and Germany a bit smaller or something.......

Have you ever thought that that God is all there is? In that case how could He come from something?

Creating the Earth is a small thing, making matter from nothing, that's a very big deal.

In order to believe this theory,we as humans would need to suspend logic,or agree logic is nonsense, a manmade idea/invention,with no real purpose.

Lets face it the scientists can claim whatever they will,the Universe cant be explained by an inferior intelligence,such as mankind,no more Than a Monkey could explain Nuclear Physics.

If God is "all there is"then He,she,it must have come from nothing,which in our logic is impossible.

No need to suspend logic. It is God that you do not understand, God does not begin or end, so in the case of origin there can only be God because everything else requires an origin. He is not part of a creation, He simply is.

You've clearly got it bad, the same as the vicar in my local church back home.

He also said that we did not understand God, because he simply 'is', but would refuse to accept that the universe might simply be!

[bifftastic]

So, if there is or were a god that created everything, where did that god come from and if he\she\it took only one week to create the earth why the rush job?...could have taken more time over it, made earth a bit bigger and Germany a bit smaller or something.......

Have you ever thought that that God is all there is? In that case how could He come from something?

Creating the Earth is a small thing, making matter from nothing, that's a very big deal.

In order to believe this theory,we as humans would need to suspend logic,or agree logic is nonsense, a manmade idea/invention,with no real purpose.

Lets face it the scientists can claim whatever they will,the Universe cant be explained by an inferior intelligence,such as mankind,no more Than a Monkey could explain Nuclear Physics.

If God is "all there is"then He,she,it must have come from nothing,which in our logic is impossible.

No need to suspend logic. It is God that you do not understand, God does not begin or end, so in the case of origin there can only be God because everything else requires an origin. He is not part of a creation, He simply is.

That's the way that believers in gods explain the 'unexplainable' "ah but you don't and never can understand god, he just 'is'"

or... mankind, needing an explanation of his existence and the things he didn't understand, began by attaching spiritual properties to trees, rivers, the sun, the moon, various animals etc. and desiring of some kind of 'higher power' that must have 'made' everything (after all, I'm man, I made my house, my knife, my axe, my clothes...but who made the sunshine?...there must be a higher power that made all this stuff...I'll call it god) in order to complete the hierarchical structure of his view of the world. A kind of super-parent who knows all and sees all that panders to our childhood trait of needing to believe without question what our elders teach us in order for us to reach adulthood.

And then we found out that the sun doesn't go around the earth and light and darkness were not manufactured 'lo and there was light' but are a result of the earth orbiting the sun. During this process of finding out, those that held on to the previous centuries of religious belief tortured and killed those that had discovered the reality of the solar system.

Now we find ourselves at a time in history where people have chosen to kind of 'edit' the religious writings of the past and leave out all the nasty stone throwing and slaughtering children bits and try and concentrate on some kind of debate about the laws of physics and how, somehow, god doesn't need to be included in science because he 'just is'.

If you want to believe in medieval magic, and it makes you happy then go ahead, but to try and make out that the collective writings of humans trying to make sense of the universe around them with no actual knowledge of any of the laws of physics is somehow 'the word of god' and therefore cannot be challenged and must be respected, despite being as untrue as the viking mythical stories, the egyptian mysteries, the greek gods or any other historical stories of magical creatures, winged beings and miracles is, in my opinion, silly.

Science is fallible, every scientist challenges and tries to disprove the previous perceived 'truth' . Religion, according to it's supporters, cannot be challenged, anyone trying to even suggest that it possibly, maybe might not actually be true, is a heretic and should be killed.

If you say you believe in 'the word of god' but don't think I should be killed because I don't, then you've decided to leave out the parts of what you believe that expressly instruct you to kill me. So, if you can decide to leave bits out then so can I. I've decided to leave all of it out, apart from the nice poem that King Solomon wrote about his girlfriend.

[canuckamuck]

Quite a lot of your post is confusing religion with God.

I think God is just as disappointed as you are in what man has done in the name of religion.

[canuckamuck]

You've clearly got it bad, the same as the vicar in my local church back home.

He also said that we did not understand God, because he simply 'is', but would refuse to accept that the universe might simply be!

But the universe clearly is confined to physical laws which are immutable (except for God) and the universe clearly shows timelines and processes of development. Whereas we have none of this for God. If one of these to things simply is, my money would be on God.

[Xangsamhua]

But the universe clearly is confined to physical laws which are immutable (except for God) and the universe clearly shows timelines and processes of development. Whereas we have none of this for God. If one of these to things simply is, my money would be on God.

If the physical laws are immutable, was God obliged to follow them in creating things or did he just make them up?

In like manner, if God is Good, does he follow ethical principles or did he create them, too?

[bifftastic]

Quite a lot of your post is confusing religion with God.

I think God is just as disappointed as you are in what man has done in the name of religion.

How can god not have anything to do with religion? God is an invention of religion, as are the punishments prescribed for non-belief. The religious writings of the past are where anyone who believes in any god gets that belief from. Any further extrapolation of that belief into some kind of modern age spiritualism still owes its roots to the fire and brimstone brigade and just leaves out the nasty bits that don't fit with our current sensibilities.

Also, how would an omnipotent omniscient being become disappointed? Surely disappointment is for those who are unaware of the future and have unfulfilled expectations of it.

Firstly, there is the implication that a god can design and create the universe whilst remaining undetectable in the physical realm, something we're supposed to just accept!

Then there is the suggestion that this being can, along with creating all the vastness of the universe and the myriad wonders of countless ages of cosmic activity, be disappointed at the behaviour of some bi-pedal life-forms on a planet in the milky way, who do believe in him (why would he care? Do you care if ants believe in you or not?) but kind of get the wrong end of the stick and start setting fire to each other. "ah well, back to the drawing board, I only knocked this up in a week so it was bound to go wrong"

Believers always have this dichotomy, on the one hand, god is universally huge, exits outside the natural realm, created the vastness of the universe, time and space, billions of stars, planets etc. but then has human traits such as love, anger, disappointment etc. which are evolved social behaviours.

The belief in god is the desire for there to be a supernatural parent in the sky because the idea that we're all alone is too scary.

[Xangsamhua]

Isn't it odd, that in the Buddhism forum hardly anyone wants to talk about Buddhism, but everyone wants to talk about God.

In a not really apposite way I'm reminded of Monsignor Ronald Knox's response to the young man of idealist views:

There was a young man who said, "God

Must think it exceedingly odd

If he finds that this tree

Continues to be

When there's no one about in the Quad."

REPLY

Dear Sir:

Your astonishment's odd:

I am always about in the Quad.

And that's why the tree

Will continue to be,

Since observed by

Yours faithfully,

GOD.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[bifftastic]

Is a tree still a tree if nobody's there to see it?

Nicely put

[canuckamuck]

But the universe clearly is confined to physical laws which are immutable (except for God) and the universe clearly shows timelines and processes of development. Whereas we have none of this for God. If one of these to things simply is, my money would be on God.

If the physical laws are immutable, was God obliged to follow them in creating things or did he just make them up?

In like manner, if God is Good, does he follow ethical principles or did he create them, too?

If laws are made then they are subject to the creator.

If God is infinitely wise, He is therefore infinitely good.

[Richb2004v2]

When invoking religion/god as an explanation there are no rules of logic to follow. Anything is possible without evidence and often based on simple whim. You might say that scientific explanation is religion for grown ups, except that it is open to constant change and development as our understanding grows.

[bifftastic]

But the universe clearly is confined to physical laws which are immutable (except for God) and the universe clearly shows timelines and processes of development. Whereas we have none of this for God. If one of these to things simply is, my money would be on God.

If the physical laws are immutable, was God obliged to follow them in creating things or did he just make them up?

In like manner, if God is Good, does he follow ethical principles or did he create them, too?

If laws are made then they are subject to the creator.

If God is infinitely wise, He is therefore infinitely good.

If god is infinitely made up completely by humans then he is infinitely not there at all.

The laws of physics aren't 'made' like the law that says you can't break into someone's house and nick their telly, they've been observed to be true, they're how things work.

Tell you what, we're flogging a dead horse here, there's always the "ah yes but god is different to anything else and rules don't apply to god" despite the weight of evidence to the contrary, those that believe will continue to do so, whilst feeling pity for us heathen who 'just don't get it'

Pray for me would you?

Thanks.

Edited September 12, 2010 by bifftastic

[canuckamuck]

Quite a lot of your post is confusing religion with God.

I think God is just as disappointed as you are in what man has done in the name of religion.

How can god not have anything to do with religion? God is an invention of religion, as are the punishments prescribed for non-belief. The religious writings of the past are where anyone who believes in any god gets that belief from. Any further extrapolation of that belief into some kind of modern age spiritualism still owes its roots to the fire and brimstone brigade and just leaves out the nasty bits that don't fit with our current sensibilities.

Also, how would an omnipotent omniscient being become disappointed? Surely disappointment is for those who are unaware of the future and have unfulfilled expectations of it.

Firstly, there is the implication that a god can design and create the universe whilst remaining undetectable in the physical realm, something we're supposed to just accept!

Then there is the suggestion that this being can, along with creating all the vastness of the universe and the myriad wonders of countless ages of cosmic activity, be disappointed at the behaviour of some bi-pedal life-forms on a planet in the milky way, who do believe in him (why would he care? Do you care if ants believe in you or not?) but kind of get the wrong end of the stick and start setting fire to each other. "ah well, back to the drawing board, I only knocked this up in a week so it was bound to go wrong"

Believers always have this dichotomy, on the one hand, god is universally huge, exits outside the natural realm, created the vastness of the universe, time and space, billions of stars, planets etc. but then has human traits such as love, anger, disappointment etc. which are evolved social behaviors.

The belief in god is the desire for there to be a supernatural parent in the sky because the idea that we're all alone is too scary.

God is God, saying religion created God is the same is saying there is no God. Religion is mostly humans trying to comprehend and control that which is beyond them. Some religions begin with God but humans are quick to make it carnal. Religion is not necessarily faith and faith does not require religion.

Why have you decided that God cannot be disappointed? For something that doesn't exist you seem to have your own set of rules for it. Human's have been given free will, what they have done with it is disappointing.

Also I don't believe God is undetectable, I see His signature everywhere: The balance of nature, the concept of good and evil which everyone feels, the majesty of the natural world... ants, migration, art, music, science... These all point to a purpose and a plan.

[canuckamuck]

Isn't it odd, that in the Buddhism forum hardly anyone wants to talk about Buddhism, but everyone wants to talk about God.

In a not really apposite way I'm reminded of Monsignor Ronald Knox's response to the young man of idealist views:

There was a young man who said, "God

Must think it exceedingly odd

If he finds that this tree

Continues to be

When there's no one about in the Quad."

REPLY

Dear Sir:

Your astonishment's odd:

I am always about in the Quad.

And that's why the tree

Will continue to be,

Since observed by

Yours faithfully,

GOD.

Brilliant, thank you for that

[canuckamuck]

I would like to apologize for hogging this thread, it wasn't my intention. It just seemed that all the questions were directed at me. ka toet krap :jap:

I respect the fact that this is not the God forum.

Please continue

[xylophone]

But the universe clearly is confined to physical laws which are immutable (except for God) and the universe clearly shows timelines and processes of development. Whereas we have none of this for God. If one of these to things simply is, my money would be on God.

If the physical laws are immutable, was God obliged to follow them in creating things or did he just make them up?

In like manner, if God is Good, does he follow ethical principles or did he create them, too?

If laws are made then they are subject to the creator.

If God is infinitely wise, He is therefore infinitely good.

Is God willing to prevent Evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is God able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

[camerata]

Isn't it odd, that in the Buddhism forum hardly anyone wants to talk about Buddhism, but everyone wants to talk about God.

Yes, this topic has nothing at all to do with Buddhism... so topic closed.

If you just want to talk about God, atheism, spirituality or philosophy, please DON'T start a topic in the Buddhism Forum.