Pigs 101 (A Start)

[revar]

Balance is different from normal 'green label' Betagro. They are from the same company but they generally don't allow dealerships from both in one city or one shop selling both (or didn't, this is old info). I sell and use the 'green label' type and ot corresponds to 7 bags=210 kg to grow a pig. I have no experience with Balance since it has not been available around here.

With Sunfeed I needed a lot more.

I also occationally use Selectfeed for small weak pigs in the sickbay. Their 111 brand contains diarea medicine (among other things) and the 112 contains worms medicine.

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[FarAwayBen]

wow. my head is spinning. so much to know! I think i need to get this information organized. I've been sort of playing it by ear up until this point and that isn't cutting. I don't know how much of what I've read here the past 24hours has been told to my wife (several hour long conversations with many details I know little of) but what I HAVE read is extremely eye opening, but will take some time to process.

I appreciate all the feedback so far. Sounds like a lot of good, solid experience talking. Let me process this.

In the meantime, I'm thinking we need something "on the side" to produce some short term returns, so I might be switching gears for a bit.

With that in mind..

Just one question, probably to revar, I've noticed 3 new pig feed shops in the past year in our Amphur, which is fairly small. We have a few others who sell a variety of feed, but these 3 new ones seem to "specialize" in individual brands, which makes me think they are subcontracting out with a major feed provider (not unlike people who start 7-11's are really subcontracting with CP). Any thoughts on this? Does it sound like the market here is becoming saturated? It sounds like you sell only Betagrow. Do you have a contract with them? or do you just buy it wholesale in the jangwat city, and then resell in a remote location? We are "relatively" remote here in that anyone without a pickup, and with pigs, has to do business in the amphur. I live 5 kilos away in a Tambon and am thinking of selling feed as part of setting up a shop. We are 40 clicks from the city.

Also, how long before feed is unusable, and what are the optimal storage conditions?

Thanks again.. (i'm going to be on the lookout for Betagrow green next trip to the city, probably tomorrow)

More later on the bran mix question. Right now, per general instruction (and specific instruction from the man with the boar), we are feeding our pregnant sow 2 bowls of ricebran mixed with a half bowl of feed.

Ben

[FarAwayBen]

When we take our rice, with the husk on, to the local village mill, the powder byproduct is what, bran? or chaff? or a mix of both? (7 baht per kilo) Anyways, this is what i'm referring to when i currently refer to ricebran. Is this accurate?

I had previously been confused that the straw (stalks) from my rice, chopped up, was chaff (which it is, apparently) but it sounds like the husks from my rice are considered this also. All the discussion of bran lately has me wondering, and realizing why this is actually a good thing to mix with feed. (before I thought it was just to trick the pig into thinking she had a full stomach, while the feed provided the vitamins and minerals she needed).

Edited June 29, 2012 by FarAwayBen

[IsaanAussie]

Ok not really about pigs but topical enough. Here is my understanding.

First process is to shake all the grains away from the stalks and grass and stuff. Then the full grains go to the first milling stage which removes the husk or hull the covering of the grain and some of the bran layer. Most of the husk is blown away and does an Elvis, exits the building. Bits of hull and bran fall into a bucket. This is the cheaper grade of rice bran. There can be several further steps or all at once. Essentially the process is to remove the bran layer and the germ layer under that and polish the rice. All that is removed is collected as rice bran as well but you pay more for it.

Still in doubt and for an idea of what is in each layer, check the attached picture.

[revar]

Official dealerships normally only carry their own brand. So you canhave a Betagro shop, a selwctfeed shop, a sunfeed shop etc. In one ampeuh. They all try to sell their feed to the same people. Locationwise my situation is similar to yours and when I started my shop there were a lot of different shops around in the two nearest cities (10 km one way and 40 the other). They are owned by brothers and I was a customer. I was actually approached by the two dealers to open my shop as part of their attempt to penetrate the area I live. So I am not an official dealer but work together closely with them. I'll pm you my telephone number, give me a call if you want to know more.

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[IsaanAussie]

Ben,

There are two things to remember with a pregnant sow. She has a litter growing inside her forming flesh and bones, and secondly you must try to keep her weight down. Get on the web and check out sow nutrition. But limit your search to this climate as the energy requirements here are considerably lower. Feed too much energy and the pigs cant burn it off and overheat. Remember they do not sweat, they transpire through their tongues the same as a dog. Around New Year in the cold season extra energy is ok but not in the hot weather. So now if she gets hot she will not eat enough because of the rice bran %. Check it out.

As a question back what grade is the feed that you are giving her? Is it a gestation feed mix?

Finally remember a small pile of calciom carbonate in her pen will help with the calcium depletion from the bran. Its cheap get a small abg and offer it to her. My bet is she will be into as much as you will give her. Lots doesnt hurt.

Edited June 29, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[FarAwayBen]

As a question back what grade is the feed that you are giving her? Is it a gestation feed mix?

Finally remember a small pile of calciom carbonate in her pen will help with the calcium depletion from the bran. Its cheap get a small abg and offer it to her. My bet is she will be into as much as you will give her. Lots doesnt hurt.

IA,

This is a good question. I've been clueless in the feed shops and left this decision up to my wife, until now (thanks to you). The sack the feed came in has been since mixed in with a great deal of sacks, so I can't ID it for you, but we are on our 2nd brand, and lately just buying by the kilo, "testing them out" per my wife's choice. But, tomorrow we go to purchase some Betagrow green per yours and revar's recommendation, so that will give us a fresh playing field. Today, she just reached 24 days from the last mating. Are you saying that with Betagrow green we don't need to mix it with bran? I might be at odds to read the label, but I can read a little bit, so we'll have to see. I'm guessing my wife can gather this info from the seller, but I'd like to find out for myself, since I'm the guy doing the feeding.

I will also look into the calcium carbonate supplement tomorrow as well. We have some exploring to do in the city. I am only aware of one feed store there (vs the 5 or more here in the Amphur) and he is CP exclusive, from what I recall. He also runs a small CP farm that we checked out, but I don't think he is under contract. He has about 6 sow's, all breeding. He does not have boars, and does all breeding via artificial insemination ordered from CP. All pigs are tagged.

Any advice on getting a mother from him? Would artificial insemination be my only option, or could I cross breed? (and what breed are CP pigs anyways!? vs the normal white/pink floppy ear (and what's that called?). I had thought about raising a few CP boars to compete with the insemination competition in this Amphur, but my wife said people don't want a different breed inseminating their sows. Confused... Our main pig farmer in the amphur has about 10 boars, and two trucks that can accomodate 2 boars each. We've seen him, and his wife, out on the road. He claimed that each of his boars bred twice a day at 400 THB a pop. They really seem to do a lot of travelling, if this is accurate.

Sorry for so many questions. I am a novice, to be sure. But quite enthusiastic. I'd been leaving much up to my wife since I knew the conditions and advice overseas (internet) were rarely relevant in Thailand, but meeting you guys here on this thread has changed all that.

revar, stand by! I'll be in touch with you soon! I want to run a few ideas by my wife first, and head to the city tomorrow and take yet another look around. I might have better information then.

Ben

[IsaanAussie]

No time now but quickly, I use Betagrow Balance 956 gestation, if you use other than ask for the equivalent. It is formulated for gestating sows, no bran needed.

CP pigs is too long for now, look for an answer later. But if you head off early tomorrow:

Your man is under CP contract for sure. If you want CP pigs buy them direct PRRS free and be prepared to pay for them.

Calc Carb is not ordinary lime, it is under 200 baht for 50 kgs.

Do not bring a boar on to your farm that has been touring Thailand, never.

Twice a day every day is bullsh1t he will kill the boars and the success rate will be zero.

The rest of the breeding questions have to wait I am heading for shower and out on deliveries.

IA

[revar]

Ben, Have your wife take a look at www.betagrofeed.com. It is in thai. Make sure you get gestation feed. Many shops including me don't normally have it since most buyers want fattening feed. The stuff you can buy by the kilo from an open bag is never gestation feed so probably no good for your pregnant sows. It sounds to me that your wife has been experimenting with rhe wrong types of commercial feeds.

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[revar]

In my view the advantage of cp or betagro sows is that you get a prrs free sow. Prrs is a big problem in thailand and is transmitted from the sow to the piglets but does not always show up in the sow. In my village a sickness suspected to be prrs wiped out 70% of the piglets last year. Unless you have access to a lab you can't check sows yourselves and most vets can't.

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[FarAwayBen]

In my view the advantage of cp or betagro sows is that you get a prrs free sow. Prrs is a big problem in thailand and is transmitted from the sow to the piglets but does not always show up in the sow. In my village a sickness suspected to be prrs wiped out 70% of the piglets last year. Unless you have access to a lab you can't check sows yourselves and most vets can't.

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revar,

Thanks for that advice. It sounds very important to know, and brings something to mind that my wife was told "not to worry about." Our sow has an issue with flaking skin, like dandruff or psoriasis, pretty much everywhere she has hair. She was born and raised in less than optimal conditions without electricity or running water by my wife's closest childhood friend. She had this issue when we bought her, but we didn't know better at the time, but i'm wondering if it's a staph infection. She also had a great deal of mosquito bites then as well, which have since cleared up since I keep a yellow light on at night, and keep her sty clean of waste and free of standing water.

My concern is that we have gotten more bad advice and I don't want her to pass this condition on to any piglets, or even worse, new sows I intend to put in adjacent sties. I can provide photos, if necessary. We still have yet to find a reliable vet who is not a competing local pig farmer.

-------

I found that betagrow does have at least some English on their site: http://www.betagrofeed.com/products.php?lang=en

I see the Balance 956 gestation feed on there, and will be attempting to locate it today in the city. Revar, I assume the green label Betagrow "original" feed you were talking about is what you use for fattening up the pigs. I see they have lactation pellet/mash BG 306-307, which I assume is fed to the sow postpartum, but there was no mention of a gestation feed. I'm wondering if BG 306 is actually a misprint and is really Gestation feed, like the 956, with 307 being the lactation feed like the Balance 957.

All these numbers are finally starting to make sense. I do need to brush up on my Thai, in the long run, for this to work out. It's very frustrating being clueless in the feed store and when we talk to other farmers. Are you guys fluent?

Ben

[IsaanAussie]

Ben,

I would be looking at parasites. Get some ivomectin and give her a jab. It controls both internal and external parasites. If you are concerned, yes it is fully synthetic but allowed under organic certification. The nice thing is the effect of the drug is passed to the piglets. Once every three months.

Diet is another factor and it cannot hurt to improve on things there.

[FarAwayBen]

Ben,

I would be looking at parasites. Get some ivomectin and give her a jab. It controls both internal and external parasites. If you are concerned, yes it is fully synthetic but allowed under organic certification. The nice thing is the effect of the drug is passed to the piglets. Once every three months.

Diet is another factor and it cannot hurt to improve on things there.

IA, her feces, if not dried right away collects a great deal of small white worms which look like maggots. I had assumed they were fly larvae. Could these be coming out of her? Am researching ivomectin so I know how to ask for it. There's a vet we know about 2 villages over who may be able to assist in this. I'm not sure why she hasn't called him in yet.

So far I'm meeting some resistance from my wife with the advice you guys are giving that is contrary to what she is told, particularly when it comes to feed. I guess it's a strange concept for her to trust people she can't see, much less westerners. She also resisted the idea that a boar couldn't breed twice a day. I just now told her about the parasite likelihood and she said "oh, that comes from Pbaew (the girl who sold us the pig), not from us." That was it.. I think she's known it was a parasite for a long time but didn't tell me and probably didn't think to get any medicine or a vet because the pig farmer next door told her "not to worry about it". I'm getting the feeling more and more that I need to take the lead on this.

Ben

[FarAwayBen]

To be clear, and I'm sure revar knows this, That is a translation/sloppy editiing problem on the Betagrow website regarding green label titles for Sow feed.

http://www.betagrofeed.com/products/cat5_product_betagro.php?lang=en

Upon taking a closer look at the Thai (สุกรระยะอุ้มท้อง) I see that Betagrow 306 is in fact Gestation feed and not Lactation feed which is what they have written in English.

Sorry for not investigating this before posting about it earlier.

[revar]

As IA said ot soumds like parasites. Worms.most pigs will get worms if they are not properly dewormed as small piglets. Ivermectin has to be injected under the skin (most otherpig medocines are injected in the muscle).

You can also get it inpowder form to mix in with the feed but it is less effective because it does not easily mix with pellets.

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[revar]

Luckily the english on the actual bags is OK

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[revar]

On the advice of locals. Some will have other motives,especially if they try to sell you something.because of status,they will also often refuse to admit that there are better ways of doing things then the way they do it. But at the same time some of them may have been raising pigs for many years and have been very succesful. So some of them realy know their stuff. The trick is to find them. I only speak a little thai but when i started with pigs many of the local farmers were happy to help because they were proud of their pigs. I went to their sties with my wife and insisted that she translated everything so I could tell her to ask the right questions. She would not do that herself since a thai does not questionwhat someone of higher status tells her. she just agrees. bBut for her to say something like 'my farang husband does not understand, he sais wouldn't ... not be better?' is ok statuswise. At home I would check things with her and on the internet. even so I made a lot of mistakes and some of the local advice I ignored I should have followed.

key thing is to talk about things with yourwife. try some things her way and some your way. if one way doesn't work try another.

One advantage that we farangs have is a higher general education, a willingness to admit that we were wrong and status is not that important so we are allowed to ask stupid questions (like children). Use this and in time things willbe reversed with the locals coming to you for advice.

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[FarAwayBen]

revar,

I'm real glad you shared this with me. Very good timing. We had a not so fun time in town today at all the different shops. All our main interests, for the most part, were rebutted, primarily the medicine for the parasites, and the calcium carbonate. I won't get into details, but my wife trusts these people absolutely, and does not trust anything I read on the internet. So I have to be a bit more subtle, I think, and pick my battles. But I will also keep in mind what you told me here. That restores my faith a little bit in some of the assistance we've been getting. Enthusiasm, in general, is the one thing we seem to find at every corner, when it comes to pig farming, but I have to be careful about making cultural generalizations around her. Sometimes I forget that she is "one of them." But most importantly, me countering what she was being told was sapping her enthusiasm for this, and that is something I cannot afford to lose. I just have to trust that our pig does "not" in fact have parasites and that a good bath is all she needs, and that she's getting enough calcium in her feed.

Anyways, good advice on how to work with/through the wife. I just came back to do a little more checking on feed, and have settled on the following as part of a compromise with my wife.. Balance 757 mash, which is good for both gestation and lactation (i actually read the Thai this time, there is no english on the packages and i was leary about trusting this particular bored shopkeeper. I think he was hired help, and not the owner")

Here were our available feed shops:

Balance, with very little else to offer (brand new shop)

Their 757 feed sells locally at 670 THB

Prograde

A shop with Top Feed and SPM (our regular general shop, they also buy sticky rice baskets from us)

Perfecc(t?), this was the feed we most recently purchased, around 15 kilos

and finally, the most popular local product, but also the most expensive at 740 THB

P. CHAROENPHAN 995 ..

We see these bags all over the place, and my wife was leaning towards using it, but is allowing me to make at least this one choice, and I'm going to go with Balance, for now. If we find Betagrow proper in the city I might consider that

Very confusing day... I have many gigabytes of Thai language materials I need to put to use (of course, it will only do me limited good as all the local discussions are in Isaan, but at least I'll be able to READ)

Going to go Sow shopping tomorrow.

On the advice of locals. Some will have other motives,especially if they try to sell you something.because of status,they will also often refuse to admit that there are better ways of doing things then the way they do it. But at the same time some of them may have been raising pigs for many years and have been very succesful. So some of them realy know their stuff. The trick is to find them. I only speak a little thai but when i started with pigs many of the local farmers were happy to help because they were proud of their pigs. I went to their sties with my wife and insisted that she translated everything so I could tell her to ask the right questions. She would not do that herself since a thai does not questionwhat someone of higher status tells her. she just agrees. bBut for her to say something like 'my farang husband does not understand, he sais wouldn't ... not be better?' is ok statuswise. At home I would check things with her and on the internet. even so I made a lot of mistakes and some of the local advice I ignored I should have followed.

key thing is to talk about things with yourwife. try some things her way and some your way. if one way doesn't work try another.

One advantage that we farangs have is a higher general education, a willingness to admit that we were wrong and status is not that important so we are allowed to ask stupid questions (like children). Use this and in time things willbe reversed with the locals coming to you for advice.

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Edited June 30, 2012 by FarAwayBen

[IsaanAussie]

Ben,

Relax and play the Thai game. Your sow needs to be wormed, no cultural issue, the pig has a cureable condition. There are many cheap preparations that can be mixed into the feed to fix this problem. Try asking her to find out which one everyone in the village uses. Everyone wins!

[FarAwayBen]

Ben,

Relax and play the Thai game. Your sow needs to be wormed, no cultural issue, the pig has a cureable condition. There are many cheap preparations that can be mixed into the feed to fix this problem. Try asking her to find out which one everyone in the village uses. Everyone wins!

IA,

Sorry, I'd hoped not to let my interpersonal dealings enter in here.. or anywhere, for that matter, but revar did help quite a bit in that dept in his last post.

I'll try again on the worming issue. Today, it felt like the classic "who is right, the family or me" type scenario we dealt with 5 years ago. In this case, "the shop" (where she sells her baskets) told her that it wasn't worms. If it was worms, the pig would be emaciated, which she isn't. They said the same thing the neighbor told us. The pig just needed a good washing, using human shampoo, no less (Clinic Clear, really?). But more importantly, they told us to give the pig Ivermectin (which everyone claimed they didn't have anyways) was dangerous during gestation and would cause a lost litter... This sold my wife on, A. the pig didn't have worms, and B. we can't treat it right now anyways.

Well, I had to let it go. We ended up getting a "shampoo" at the shop that sold CHAROENPHAN feed. 150 baht later (3 packets?), we'll soap up the pig tomorrow. Let's just say I've (we've, I hope) learned a lesson about buying sows from friends and family, particularly if they are small time farmers.

But, we are going to go visit a couple local farms tomorrow, particularly the only real "professional" in our Amphur. We'll see what he has to say about mixing worming meds into the mash feed. I intend to bring an 8x11 close-up photo of the skin problem.

In the event we buy a sow from him, I will be sure to ask if this skin condition is something to be concerned about. I appreciate revar's latest post about local pig farmer entusiasm and pride. That restored my confidence in what my wife was being told, at least a bit (but not her perception of my LACK of confidence, which I think she takes personally). However, she still has zero confidence in what I am being told by you guys. To her, the internet is a very rare convenience, in the event of needing a phone number. Certainly not a place to go for valid information.

This will take time, and patience. We will get there.

I do enjoy this so far. Challenges are what makes life worth it.

Ben

PS.. I got a 30k bag of Balance 757 today. We agreed to get a bag of pellets next, and then do the math by comparison. Am keeping an Excel spreadsheet. (of course, we'll have to prove to my wife that the pig will actually EAT the pellets) Fun!

[IsaanAussie]

Ben,

There is a lot to learn and many different ways to approach any animal husbandry. Using a dietary balanced meal in concert with rice bran or whatever is just as valid as pellets. I would let that ride. Trying to do a comparison first bag up is not going to valid. The volumes are different and with pellets there is a real risk of overfeeding. It is not a straight Kg for KG exchange.

These worms have me interested post your picture when you have it. Next time you are scouting the pig sites, look for an identification chart or photos. There are many different internal parasites. You will have to determine which one it is, get rid of it and find the source to prevent reoccurence. Ivomectin is safe up until the last weeks of pregnancy by the way.

How many pigs do you have?

[FarAwayBen]

IA,

Right now, just the one pig, but that doesn't accurately reflect a year of determination (albeit slowly, stand by). Tonight I haven't been able to convince my wife the skin issue is worms, as obvious as it might seem, based primarily on the points that (a. it probably isn't worms, told to her by several people, and b. we cant treat it while pregnant) Your words that Ivomectin is safe at this stage have no effect. She is a disciple, if you will, of everyone she has spoken to. I have little choice but to respect that or else give up on the pig game, so it would seem. Her enthusiasm for this, today, showed it's first signs of fragility. I hope that with time we (she) can become more confident, not only in this venture overall, but in my contributions (based on what you guys tell me, of course ).

My intention is to have 4 sows before this particular mother produces her first litter, which is the first week of September, according to plan.

I have seen no sign of an ID chart or photos anywhere we've been. The best thing I've found was at the CP "farm" in the city which had the dates of conception marked above the pen, and the pigs were properly tagged. I could ask tomorrow, however. But I'm not sure what you are talking about is normal practice around here. Or at least, not readily disclosed. (If anything, I've noted that folks here just do as they do and don't put much thought or planning into it.)

As for feeding volume, I can only go with what is recommended locally, at this stage, aside from your general recommendation of which feed to gat (Balance). That's 2 bowls of branmix per half bowl of feed mash. If we go the pellet route with new sows I shall inquire again. It sounds like an entirely different approach, price per 30k notwithstanding. (it does seem to even out, right, at 125 THB per 25kg sack of Branmix). I think I will stand firm on the pellet choice with any new sows, but will yield to the mash for the current pig. I'm guessing I might need a scale to weigh feed per sow? And then some if I choose to raise pigs for weight...

Should have a lot of family fun (5 year old son also) soaping up Sow (Sao) tomorrow. she sure does love the attention

Ben

[revar]

don't worry to much about not treating the skin condition as long as she does not get any health problems. And if she does, your wife will probably be more willing to try medicines and I would go to a big city with a large petshop (not a pigfood dealer) and have your wife talk to the vet. Alternativaly you could get somer ivermectin in powder form (90 bath) and secretly mix it in the feed.

On feed;

If you have different sows you might use different feeds for each of them. have one onbalance and another on the locally adviced homemade feed and see what happens. If the balance eating pig does better iight convince your wife, if the local feed one does better it might convince you.

Its what locals do here when trying Betagro for the first time. feed half their pigs as they are used to and half with betagro following my advices on feeding and healthissues. Afterwards they compare results including speed of growth, size, costs,meat quality and decide on their future feed.

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[IsaanAussie]

Ben,

Mate I mean you no disrespect but you have a pet pig, not a pig farm. At the moment your costs are close to zero and mistakes cost particularly nothing. She is a gilt, yet to reach parity 1 and already a year old. These are village numbers for pigs. From what I remember of the conversation this is the third attempt at mating her, That means she was 10 months old before the first try. If you intend to buy more gilts and breed them, you are going to have to do way better than that if your goal is commercial.

[pigeonjake]

just my thought, i think in the sties the worms you see will be magots you only have to leave the poo down for over 1 day and they will be there,

we take it out 2 times a day and dry most of it, but as its drying the mogots come and they go to our fish and chickens,

jake

[FarAwayBen]

IA,

That's why I'm here. We all have to start somewhere, right? I don't have a farm, but that is my goal, and has been for some time. My current objective is to have 4 sows by September. I see this current sow as something of a learning animal bought under not so ideal conditions as a favor to a friend, mostly just to familiarize ourselves with what's involved here, and that's exactly what's happening. Our goal is to learn what we're doing, make mistakes along the way, which is normal, and eventually get it right. I don't expect it to happen over night.

What I've read here has been very useful, so far, but has to be integrated into what my wife is learning on her own in a very subtle way. I'm doing the work (mostly building and cement work, to this stage) and she's handling anything that needs human interaction, including our needs for how to care and breed, so I have to be patient with her and demonstrate at least a little bit of trust.

Jake, that's kind of what I figured about the worms (maggots) and haven't been too worried about it until IA mentioned parasites. I have two young chickens who take great pleasure in sifting through the manure when I have it out to dry (currently in a cement mixing bucket, it's one of the things I need to work on as I expand).

Ben

Ben,

Mate I mean you no disrespect but you have a pet pig, not a pig farm. At the moment your costs are close to zero and mistakes cost particularly nothing. She is a gilt, yet to reach parity 1 and already a year old. These are village numbers for pigs. From what I remember of the conversation this is the third attempt at mating her, That means she was 10 months old before the first try. If you intend to buy more gilts and breed them, you are going to have to do way better than that if your goal is commercial.

[FarAwayBen]

revar,

sounds like a good plan. (both bits here, on flaky skin and feed) ...

The pig seems healthy. She is very robust. If she seems unwell physically I imagine that you are correct, and suspect my wife will be agreeable and respond accordingly. However, the pig is definitely going to get a bath today. My wife is very excited about that. I like your advice on secretly mixing in the ivermectin, though it seems that, like you said, the pig is probably ok. We've had this confirmed multiple times from various sources, and everyone was consistent in their advice, so she thinks it's prudent to go along with that, and I feel inclined to agree, given current conditions.

I will definitely put that feed plan into action as well. This pig we are keeping on mash, but I will use pellets for Sow #2, and compare notes. Should be getting started on that this week.

Ben

don't worry to much about not treating the skin condition as long as she does not get any health problems. And if she does, your wife will probably be more willing to try medicines and I would go to a big city with a large petshop (not a pigfood dealer) and have your wife talk to the vet. Alternativaly you could get somer ivermectin in powder form (90 bath) and secretly mix it in the feed.

On feed;

If you have different sows you might use different feeds for each of them. have one onbalance and another on the locally adviced homemade feed and see what happens. If the balance eating pig does better iight convince your wife, if the local feed one does better it might convince you.

Its what locals do here when trying Betagro for the first time. feed half their pigs as they are used to and half with betagro following my advices on feeding and healthissues. Afterwards they compare results including speed of growth, size, costs,meat quality and decide on their future feed.

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[IsaanAussie]

Ben,

Dont get me wrong. Good luck with your plans. You mentioned buying 4 sows (have given birth) or do you mean gilts that are ready to breed, or perhaps CP or breeder farm gilts at between 60 and 100 kgs?

The reason for asking is most farmers will not sell a productive sow, so if you plan to buy them ask yourself why they are being sold, beware usually the duds.

Ready to go Gilts will have had at least two heat cycles and ideally be at 120 to 140 kgs (7 to 8 months old). These are expensive if they are any good, make sure that these arent rejects that did not hold after mating.

Finishing pigs are the usual place to start when selecting a gilt at around 60 to 70 kgs. Your need to check the number of teats and the pigs constitution. Take someone who knows what to look for.

Next buying 4 at once, why? If you have 4 females all in pig at once you will go through peaks and troughs of production at least 4 months between sales with a 4 month start up period. That is expensive and requires enough pens and farrowing facilities to hold the maximum numbers at each stage. That is growing pens for four litters, four finishers, as well as four nursery and farrowing areas and the gestation area for 4 sows. At least half of those pens will be empty.

Yes you can use fewer pens but then you dont have room to expand the sow herd.

In short, to start think about buying one gilt each month for 4 months. That will space them out and you will have a continuous supply of piglets with only a month between them or two months if one pregnancy fails.

[FarAwayBen]

IA,

Great advice there. Yea, the goal wasn't to buy 4 at once. We have one, and are 90 days away (a little less now) from a litter. The plan was to buy one each month leading up to that, and expand as we go, hence the goal of 4 pigs at the date of our first litter. I have room right now to house 4 sows comfortably and for a single farrowing pen (the specifics to restrict movement and prevent crushing yet to be constructed, but the CP farmer we know sells prewelded set ups for around 10k THB if I recall, but I might just have our cousin weld it together which might or might not be cheaper).

I'm glad you mentioned that most farmers won't sell a productive sow. The CP farmer and our local big pig farmer both offered to sell pregnant sows, but I think you are right that we should bring someone along to have a look first, just to be safe. But those CP sows seemed well, I'm just still a little bit in the dark about what getting one would imply other than spending more money. (he quoted a pregnant sow at 14k THB) I wanted to make our mistakes and do our learning first with lesser pigs before making that kind of an investment in a top quality breeding mother.

The pig we have now had been in heat twice before my wife's friend mated her the first time. 21 days later she mated her again, and we brought the pig home the next day. I was concerned that the trauma of the moving experience, as well as us figuring out how to feed and take care of her properly, might have had something to do with the second mating not taking place. But we mated her a 3rd time, choosing a different boar (I think the first to matings were Duracs, a red boar), and so far so good. Her estrus date came and went almost a week ago, and everything seems to be moving along steadily. We've fallen into something almost resembling a routine at this stage, which I think is good for the pig, and us.

Your post makes me think I should do a little bit more research before we get our 2nd Sow, even though most of my input seems to fall on deaf ears. My wife has stated she doesn't want a gilt, but a mother who has already had one litter, due to the fact that we had some anxiety about this pig's estrus date last week, primarily. If she wasn't pregnant, we were going to sell her (or fatten her up) and start fresh with breeding. I think my wife felt guilty about that due to her friend, not wanting her to lose face for selling a bad mother, which just emphases why you shouldn't do business with relatives. I will discuss the merits of getting a gilt with her and we'll see what's available, but i think it's going to come down to whoever we take along. We have a few family members who are knowledgeable enough to advise us.

Am taking careful note of your recommendations and will apply where I can. I am very grateful for all the help received so far. My whole perspective has developed a great deal this week.

Ben

Ben,

Dont get me wrong. Good luck with your plans. You mentioned buying 4 sows (have given birth) or do you mean gilts that are ready to breed, or perhaps CP or breeder farm gilts at between 60 and 100 kgs?

The reason for asking is most farmers will not sell a productive sow, so if you plan to buy them ask yourself why they are being sold, beware usually the duds.

Ready to go Gilts will have had at least two heat cycles and ideally be at 120 to 140 kgs (7 to 8 months old). These are expensive if they are any good, make sure that these arent rejects that did not hold after mating.

Finishing pigs are the usual place to start when selecting a gilt at around 60 to 70 kgs. Your need to check the number of teats and the pigs constitution. Take someone who knows what to look for.

Next buying 4 at once, why? If you have 4 females all in pig at once you will go through peaks and troughs of production at least 4 months between sales with a 4 month start up period. That is expensive and requires enough pens and farrowing facilities to hold the maximum numbers at each stage. That is growing pens for four litters, four finishers, as well as four nursery and farrowing areas and the gestation area for 4 sows. At least half of those pens will be empty.

Yes you can use fewer pens but then you dont have room to expand the sow herd.

In short, to start think about buying one gilt each month for 4 months. That will space them out and you will have a continuous supply of piglets with only a month between them or two months if one pregnancy fails.

[IsaanAussie]

ben,

I have 4 nursery pens each one and a half by five metres and I use these for farrowing then remove the sow and leave the piglets in there. The front metre of the pen is patitioned off so that the piglets just walk under the barrier which contains the sows feeder. The danger period for the piglets being crushed is really only the first two or three days until they learnthe signals to get out of the way. Full farrowing crate or not the is no guarantee that one will not get laid or stepped on. With my setup I put a thick covering of rice hulls in the creep area and when the piglets arrive place them in there to recover. They move out to suckle when they need. I do loose a few crushed ones. But I prefer not to restrict the sow in a cage. You could not the same thing in a corner if the sow pens are bigger. Simply remove the barrier to move either the piglets or the sow.

The platform farrowing crate/creeps are very popular and considering they are galvanised I do not believe they are bad value. The weak points in many are a cheap steel feeder rather than a stainless one and the latches are rubbish on some. Gets a bit expensive by the time you put plastic flooring in but they are very easy to clean being off the floor. May sure that any flooring panels under the sow are up to the task, piglet flooring is not. If she does go through it some serious damage can be inflicted.

If you do decide to make it then remember you will need a pipe bender as well.

The pregnant gilts or sows are also a good bet to start with. They probably wont be the best at the farm but shouldn't be bad given that they were breed at all. Most farms have a limited capacity for gestation and farrowing and try to keep it full. If one or two sows do not become pregnant then productivity is lost by having an empty crate. Answer they breed more than they can farrow and sell off the surplus. Consider the cost of AI or breeding and the risk of success and at 14K it is not a bad price.

Edited July 1, 2012 by IsaanAussie