Buying A House

[too true]

I tried a forum search for this, but wasn't able to come up with anything. My Thai hubby and I are thinking of buying a house sometime in the next year or so. And, just like lots of folks here, I feel a bit uneasy about putting all my/our money into something that's only going to have his name on it. I've seen too many cases where Thai/Farang couples break up and they've got a business, car, or some land in the Thai's name because who really plans for breakups, and the Thai says "Oh, you want your car back? I know you paid for it, but whose name is it in???" It gets nasty, as I'm sure you've all heard.

Is there any way to go to a lawyer and have a contract drawn up that states that if the marriage breaks down and we separate, that the house/land would have to be sold and the money divided between us? Not worded so simply, of course, but something along those lines? Or could we put in the name of one of our children to ensure that it can't be taken out from under my feet if things ever soured between us? Thai people assure me that it's all very simple, but a lot of these Thai people are really very simple and I don't believe them any more than I would a talking soi dog.

Neither of us has ever actually owned anything other than a motorcycle, and even that's in his name. This is all foreign territory for both of us, so any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers

[loong]

As far as I understand it, if a Thai has a foreign spouse and buys land then the spouse is supposed to sign an agreement that he/she has no interest/claim on the land.. This would make an agreement as you suggest not worth the paper it is printed on.

One way to go would be your husband buying the land in his name and leasing the land to you for 30 years.

Another way would be that you lend the money and have it secured on the property, but not sure how this works between husband and wife.

Basically, you need proper legal advise, but Thai lawyers have been known to B**ls**t once or 2ce!

No idea about putting in children's name.

A foreigner can own a house, just not the land it stands on.

[Dragonman]

I tried a forum search for this, but wasn't able to come up with anything.  My Thai hubby and I are thinking of buying a house sometime in the next year or so.  And, just like lots of folks here, I feel a bit uneasy about putting all my/our money into something that's only going to have his name on it. I've seen too many cases where Thai/Farang couples break up and they've got a business, car, or some land in the Thai's name because who really plans for breakups, and the Thai says "Oh, you want your car back? I know you paid for it, but whose name is it in???" It gets nasty, as I'm sure you've all heard.

Is there any way to go to a lawyer and have a contract drawn up that states that if the marriage breaks down and we separate, that the house/land would have to be sold and the money divided between us?  Not worded so simply, of course, but something along those lines?  Or could we put in the name of one of our children to ensure that it can't be taken out from under my feet if things ever soured between us?  Thai people assure me that it's all very simple, but a lot of these Thai people are really very simple and I don't believe them any more than I would a talking soi dog.

Neither of us has ever actually owned anything other than a motorcycle, and even that's in his name.  This is all foreign territory for both of us, so any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As loong stated you cannot go down the contract route as it would be void on legal grounds. The lease route is an option, and it is likely the property value would be split under divorce laws,( bit early to ask a divorce lawyer) but you are unlikely to get a mortgage. You would of course not get true value as you only share the value of the house excluding land value.

It would take a complex trustee agreement for the property to eventually be owned by your child, who I am presuming is a minor. All in all I do not know of anything that will provide you with equal rights TiT. Unless you buy a condo.

As I have done, don't buy anything too expensive and hope for the best

[yuyi]

... And, just like lots of folks here, I feel a bit uneasy about putting all my/our money into something that's only going to have his name on it. I've seen too many cases where Thai/Farang couples break up and they've got a business, car, or some land in the Thai's name because who really plans for breakups, and the Thai says "Oh, you want your car back? I know you paid for it, but whose name is it in???" It gets nasty, as I'm sure you've all heard.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At least a car and a motorbike you can register easily in your name, also as a foreigner. They might require an address confirmation from you to do so. This you get at your local immigration office, usually for a 200 baht fee.

You can also own a house, just not the land on which it sits.

If your children have Thai nationality then the land can be in their name. You might have to take care of some formalities to make sure that you administer it for them, until they are 18 or 20 (?). Then they could kick you out though

You might get a reliable lawyer through the forum sponsor, Indo Siam's Steve. I would recommend talking with him.

[ilyushin]

Depends on your marriage certification (local or elsewhere) , visa status ( resident or non-immigrant) , proof of funds. I have seen one case where the Thai husband tried to file for divorce and take the house , kids, cars, credit, etc... and he finally gave up and got back with the non-native Thai wife ( resident status) because it would cost him more than the entire estate was worth. I am sure an agreement to split the assets is available and legal, but must be non-contested.

Take a close look at immigration laws and , land laws via internet and libraries.

Good luck!

[Sumitr Man]

Assuming you are in Thailand, Thai law does not acknowledge the concept of trust or equity law - so having a trustee relationship is not going to work. You could, of course, have a guardian relationship - with your children.

As you are already married - a prenup won't work either. Also, lease agreements between married couples have issues.

So, best bet - tell your other half you love them but don't feel too secure about the situation and that any money you invest in the program/investment is done on a loan basis. Get them to sign the loan and have as an event of default under the loan the event of you splitting up. Make the interest rate that set under the Civil and Commercial Code (currently 7.5%).

Best and simplist way I know.

SM

[loong]

Is the land / house you are planning to buy in the spouse's village?

You could always look into renting with a long term agreement.

In my village you can rent a house for 500 Baht per month. If you have a long term agreement (legal not verbal), could bring the property up to your acceptable spec at your expense. Overall not too much cash at risk

If this is option and hubby does not like it, then maybe you have to wonder why

[pluto_manibo]

Whatever you buy after the marriage and without a prenup agreement( they are worthless in your home country by the way.....always contested in european courts anyhow) becomes communal property (50/50). Therefore, legally he would be entitled to half of your investment. What you might consider is establishing a company to run your business or buy your house, make yourself managing director, give yourself power of attorney, blank transfer sheets etc....You need a reputable lawyer for this...You will have 39% of shares, and the rest will go to a minimum of 7 thai shareholders...You would be the only one who has the right to sell the property or make any changes to it etc....It should set you back 20-30 k for the registering, then around 15 k for accounting, and then another 10-20k minimum for tax per year...Legally since it is a company it is not technically yours, therefore 50% of nothing is nothing.....

"It's is always those that have nothing to lose, that are most eager...."

[Heng]

Take out a mortgage on it, even if you can pay cash. You're then covered for about 15 years. Then refinance it or use the house as collateral for a business loan or whatever. One of the rare cases where debt for equity is a good thing, I think. If you're concerned for your spouse's long term security, will it to them (+ the required cash needed to pay off the home) without their knowledge. If they push you to pay it down faster, just say your pension/profit shares/interest from abroad only covers the monthly payments.

From the Thai side of things... forming a company yells out "I don't trust you" whereas the debt/equity method only whispers it.

Yeah, it's not exactly romantic, but being practical rarely is.

Edited July 24, 2005 by Heng

[too true]

This is all so horribly complicated.... what is going to happen to my more or less carefree existence here in the land of smiles???

Okay, so I suppose I'm not totally against putting everything in his name if I have to. But, what happens if he dies in 5 years? Then who does the land and house go to? Our kids? Or will the government kick me off it if he's not around?

Thanks for all the info guys. A rude awakening to a potentially uncomfortable situation here.

[Dragonman]

This is all so horribly complicated....  what is going to happen to my more or less carefree existence here in the land of smiles??? 

Okay, so I suppose I'm not totally against putting everything in his name if I have to.  But, what happens if he dies in 5 years?  Then who does the land and house go to?  Our kids?  Or will the government kick me off it if he's not around?

Thanks for all the info guys.  A rude awakening to a potentially uncomfortable situation here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can get a lawyer to make out a will leaving the property to the kids on the event of his death.

[keithcresswell]

This is all so horribly complicated....  what is going to happen to my more or less carefree existence here in the land of smiles??? 

Okay, so I suppose I'm not totally against putting everything in his name if I have to.  But, what happens if he dies in 5 years?  Then who does the land and house go to?  Our kids?  Or will the government kick me off it if he's not around?

Thanks for all the info guys.  A rude awakening to a potentially uncomfortable situation here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can get a lawyer to make out a will leaving the property to the kids on the event of his death.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am about to embark on he same venture myself. and it concerns me that if something did happen to my wife, such as fall off a motorbike (without wearing a helmet, as usual) will her family be round to kick me out of my house. It seems that there is no way of protecting yourself in such circumstances.

[Sumitr Man]

There are a number of ways to protect yourself against your in/out-laws:

1: maintain good relations with them;

2: make sure you are the named beneficiary of your wife's will (good practice anyhow);

3: make sure you have a lease over the land - as a lease is enforceable against heirs.

Suggest you talk through your situation with a reputible lawyer.

Good luck

SM

[loong]

If the land is in your Thai spouse's name and he/she dies before you, he/she can leave the property to you in his/her will. However, as a foreigner you are not allowed to own the land and you will be given a limited amount of time to dispose of the property.

I have a simple way of looking at things.

If you are buying property in your spouse's name, then you have to say goodbye to the money as soon as you hand it over.

If you are not prepared to lose this money, don't buy the property.

Looking at the previous posts, the best idea seems to be to buy with a mortgage in your spouse's name. That way is the same as paying rent and if you have problems, you will be able to walk away without too much resentment.

It is unfortunate that there are so many misgivings, but because of the amount of farang who have been in apparently happy relationships only to find that their financial investment is thrown away, the mistrust is understandable.

My girlfriend already had her house, so I don't have this problem. I have spent money on improvements, but all my spending comes from my monthly budget that I have allowed myself. Should our relationship go sour for whatever reason, I will only regret the end of the relationship, I would have no financial regrets at all.

[Sumitr Man]

However, as a foreigner you are not allowed to own the land and you will be given a limited amount of time to dispose of the property.

This is normally where I jump on my banwagon (and where DR. P comes in to kick me in the nuts ) and say that Section 93 of the Land Code does allow foreigners to inherit land in Tailand; provided that the land in questions is not larger than 1 Rai (in aggregate).

That aside, I agree with the bulk of your post.

My moto: "if you need to think about, think about buying a place in Spain."

SM

[loong]

Section 93 of the Land Code does allow foreigners to inherit land in Tailand; provided that the land in questions is not larger than 1 Rai (in aggregate).

Sumatra Man

Is that right?

I'm not going to dispute it, must say I'm surprised. Good news for a lot of foreigners

I was sure about what I posted, maybe I was thinking in the wrong context.

What happens in the case of divorcees? If property is divided after a divorce and the farang takes land as part of the settlement, do the same rules apply?

[loong]

I have just been looking and at Thai Visa page

http://www.thaivisa.com/buy_land_thailand.0.html

According to the orange highlighted section death or divorce cannot result in land going to the foreigner.

This means either we are both wrong or Thai Visa has some misleading info

Published on Nov 15, 2002

Thai property law states that with a few exceptions – like a Board of Investment approval or suitcases full of money deposited in a Thai bank – foreigners are not allowed to own freehold land. They can only lease the land for a maximum of 30 years. But Thai law has many grey areas; in fact, it seems at times it has more grey areas than black and white areas.

In 1999, the government lurched out of the 19th century to amend the property law to allow a Thai spouse (male or female) of a foreigner to buy land.

Unfortunately it only lurched as far as the early 20th century. For the spouse to buy land, proof is required that the money used to purchase the land is legally the Thai partner’s, with no foreign claim to it. Get divorced or separated and the Thai “ex” gets to keep it all. Even if the Thai spouse dies, the foreigner has no claim to the land and there is nothing to stop the relatives from moving in (if they haven’t already) and booting you out.

If you want a house to call your own without the prospect of your spouses’ relatives circling hungrily, this is not a good option.

etc.. etc please follow above link for full article

Phil Macdonald

The Nation

[Sumitr Man]

Dr. P and I have been playing tennis on this one for about a year now.

The following is the official [Thai Government] Department of Land website wording (not mine)

an alien may acquire land by inheritance as statutory heir, in this instance, the land devolved when combined with the land already acquired shall not exceed that specified by law, for examples, land for residential purpose not exceeding 1 rai per household, land for commercial purpose not exceeding 1 rai, land for industrial purpose not exceeding 10 rais, and land for agricultural purpose not exceeding 10 rai per household.

Source: http://www.dol.go.th/guide/land_080745_eng.htm

In fairness, Dr. P will now tell you that regardless of what Section 93 says, it is subject to the Minister of Interior's approval (which is true) and there's more chance of snow in Bangkok than that happening.

Not that I totally disagree with Dr. P; but, IMO, the law says you can do it - so do it.

SM

[Sumitr Man]

In answer to your divorce question - no you don't get anything as the land is your wife's personal property (and in most cases we have had to attest to that fact by way of an affidavit).

[Dragonman]

QUOTE(loong @ 2005-

07-26 20:08:06)

Looking at the previous posts, the best idea seems to be to buy with a mortgage in your spouse's name. That way is the same as paying rent and if you have problems, you will be able to walk away without too much resentment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've done this, but it entails getting someone to act as guarantor for the mortgage if your wife doesn't work or doesn't earn enough. In my case my brother-in-law agreed. If I acted as guarantor it would still leave me liable if we split.

[Sumitr Man]

^ true. Under the CCC a guarantee is not extinguished until such time as the underlying debt is. A real bitch is you later have a falling out - and one of the major reasons my company has a 'no guarantee' policy.

SM

[Khun Jean]

The OP is a female and married to a Thai man, or not?

In that case she can apply for Thai citizenship and put everything in her own name. Or is that too easy?

[too true]

The OP is a female and married to a Thai man, or not?

That's right. The citizenship thing is a bit blurry, and a whole new can of worms. And there are enough women around married to Thai men that if it really were that easy, someone surely would have done it by now and told us about it. If I had the 200,000 baht or whatever ridiculous price it costs for residency, I wouldn't worry so much about the house thing. But all we've got is what we make through my job and the little business we own. Very little business (but it gets me my yearly visa extension with basically no questions asked).

[Cabana]

I went down this route and made the following discoveries:

1. Leasing didnt seem a good option - doesnt provide the indefinite long term security I wanted

2. A usufruct (like a lease) doesnt work after the land transfer has taken place (as it had)

3. A mortgage is possible but seems a bit daft to pay interest when u have the cash plus i dont like the idea of my house having a lien on it. Just a personal thing.

4. Already had a pre-nup but of course land cannot be split with a farang (thats what I have always taken as red) on divorce.

5. Owning thru a company is the most secure legally but expensive but worth it. Once the initial land transfer tax has been paid you are effectively in total control which you dont get with any other option. Monthly tax returns are necessary which are painless after its all set up. According to Steve Sykes of Indo Siam it is not 39% (as a previous post had specified) it is 49% that a farang can own of a company that owns property.

[Dragonman]

I went down this route and made the following discoveries:

1. Leasing didnt seem a good option - doesnt provide the indefinite long term security I wanted

2. A usufruct (like a lease) doesnt work after the land transfer has taken place (as it had)

3. A mortgage is possible but seems a bit daft to pay interest when u have the cash plus i dont like the idea of my house having a lien on it.  Just a personal thing. 

4. Already had a pre-nup but of course land cannot be split with a farang (thats what I have always taken as red) on divorce.

5. Owning thru a company is the most secure legally but expensive but worth it.  Once the initial land transfer tax has been paid you are effectively in total control which you dont get with any other option.  Monthly tax returns are necessary which are painless after its all set up.  According to Steve Sykes of Indo Siam it is not 39% (as a previous post had specified) it is 49% that a farang can own of a company that owns property.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You feel a 30 year lease is not sufficient security but a presumably bogus Company is. The Thai Government can tighten this law overnight and in my opinion will within 30 years.

[TizMe]

So, is it safe to say that the only 100% safe avenue is to buy a condo?

[Dragonman]

So, is it safe to say that the only 100% safe avenue is to buy a condo?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, having seen the construction on some of these condos over here don't know if they'll last 30 years either. Never mind don't think I will come to that.

[TizMe]

OK, so, is it safe to say that the only 100% safe avenue is to rent....

[Dragonman]

OK, so, is it safe to say that the only 100% safe avenue is to rent....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Until you leave, then they'll probably rip you off on the deposit.

[TizMe]

OK, so, is it safe to say that the only 100% safe avenue is to rent....

Until you leave, then they'll probably rip you off on the deposit.

I'd move to a motel, but I bet they'd try to rip me off on my phone calls for internet usage....