What Does 'Pa Choat' Mean?

[HC82]

I've heard this a few times and can't figure out what it means.

'Pa Choat'

Thanks!

[mikenyork]

I think it is actually bpraL chohtH (the r gets pretty soft when it's just us'ns talkin') and it means sarcasm. As in Oh that's a GREAT pair of shoes! Which trash bin did you scavenge them from?

[HC82]

Interesting, I thought Thai's didn't have sarcasm

[rakloke]

It's spelled "ประชด".

Its often used in the phrases "พูดประชด" and "ทำประชด".

[mikenyork]

"I didn't think Thais had sarcasm". A contraire mon amis. The average Thai grandmother can slice up a Sherman tank with her tongue before breakfast and never even break a sweat (or raise her voice, for that matter). Ask any Thai woman you know and if she's honest I think she'll tell you the same.

[Rikker]

ประชด is often translated as 'sarcastic', but I think with the exception of พูดประชด, they're not very similar. 'To spite' or 'mockingly' are often better equivalents. You can combine ประชด with many verbs--it's a manner in which you perform actions, when you intend for the action to offend or spite someone whom you're displeased with. In English you can't, for example, sarcastically spill coffee on someone's lap, or sarcastically sleep with an enemy's sister.

You can even ประชดตัวเอง, which is a bit like 'cut off your nose to spite your face'.

Sarcasm has become quite commonplace in the English-speaking world. In English you might say, 'Oh, I was just being sarcastic'. The sarcasm doesn't necessarily have a target. But in Thai when you do something to ประชด you will always have a target.

The overlap comes with พูดประชด. You could พูดประชด someone to their face, as in, 'I love your shoes! I hope you paid the hobo you bought them from a fair price.'

The point I'd like some clarification on from a native speaker is whether พูดประชด is also applicable when you use sarcasm, but in a situation that will never make its way back to your target. For example, say you meet a friend and the friend asks how your visa extension went. So you say, 'I only had to wait four hours at immigration instead of the usual six! I love bureaucracy!' In English this is a clear case of sarcasm, but you're saying it for two reasons. One, to be funny, and two, to insult the ineffectiveness of the immigration bureau. Does ประชด properly apply here?

[mikenyork]

Mr. Rikker sent me scurrying to the web to explore the difference between mockery and sarcasm. I came across the following, which I think is quite useful and interesting. It indicates that the word 'sarcasm' is often misused in English (in my experience at least), including by me!

Now, if we can impose on our native speakers to give us Thai equivalents, we will have some very interesting vocabulary.

These adjectives mean having or marked by a feeling of bitterness and a biting or cutting quality.

Sarcastic suggests sharp taunting and ridicule that wounds: "a deserved reputation for sarcastic, acerbic and uninhibited polemics" (Burke Marshall).

Ironic implies a subtler form of mockery in which an intended meaning is conveyed obliquely: "a man of eccentric charm, ironic humor, and—above all—profound literary genius" (Jonathan Kirsch).

Caustic means corrosive and bitingly trenchant: "The caustic jokes ... deal with such diverse matters as political assassination, talk-show hosts, medical ethics" (Frank Rich).

Satirical implies exposure, especially of vice or folly, to ridicule: "on the surface a satirical look at commercial radio, but also a study of the misuse of telecommunications" (Richard Harrington).

Sardonic is associated with scorn, derision, mockery, and often cynicism: "He was proud, sardonic, harsh to inferiority of every description" (Charlotte Brontë).

Source(s):

http://dictionary dot referencedotcom/search?q…

[mikenyork]

As is always the case in my experience, Mr. Rikker is correct in pointing out that ประซด has a wider meaning in Thai than does sarcastic in English. It can also be very subtle. Case in point: KISO and mother are shopping for some new clothes for Mom at Bo Bae market (KISO's treat). Mom doesn't express any preference for any of the clothes on offer so KISO keeps taking her from one store to another. Finally Mom mutters "Looks like it's going to be very hard for any of these shops to get any of (KISO's) money!" She meant "I am tired of going from one shop to another. Why haven't we bought anything yet?" KISO described this to me as "Look at her sarcasm! " (ดูซิแม่พูดประซดเก่งนะ!). I don't think it would be fair to say that Mom was being spiteful. Nor was she trying to displease KISO. She wanted to express her displeasure and she wanted to change what was happening without having to directly confront the situation (why it's easier to use this method than to just say what you feel is a mystery for those who understand Thai mothers far better than I do to solve). So, under the definition of sarcasm (in English) does this actually qualify? It is equivalent to a light bulb joke I heard: "How many Jewish mothers does it take to change a light bulb. Answer: None because they always say "Never mind. I'll just do it myself." Now THAT's ประซด but is it sarcasm?

[powderpuff]

Mr. Rikker sent me scurrying to the web to explore the difference between mockery and sarcasm. I came across the following, which I think is quite useful and interesting. It indicates that the word 'sarcasm' is often misused in English (in my experience at least), including by me!

Now, if we can impose on our native speakers to give us Thai equivalents, we will have some very interesting vocabulary.

These adjectives mean having or marked by a feeling of bitterness and a biting or cutting quality.

Sarcastic suggests sharp taunting and ridicule that wounds: "a deserved reputation for sarcastic, acerbic and uninhibited polemics" (Burke Marshall).

Ironic implies a subtler form of mockery in which an intended meaning is conveyed obliquely: "a man of eccentric charm, ironic humor, and—above all—profound literary genius" (Jonathan Kirsch).

Caustic means corrosive and bitingly trenchant: "The caustic jokes ... deal with such diverse matters as political assassination, talk-show hosts, medical ethics" (Frank Rich).

Satirical implies exposure, especially of vice or folly, to ridicule: "on the surface a satirical look at commercial radio, but also a study of the misuse of telecommunications" (Richard Harrington).

Sardonic is associated with scorn, derision, mockery, and often cynicism: "He was proud, sardonic, harsh to inferiority of every description" (Charlotte Brontë).

Source(s):

dot referencedotcom/search?q…

Learn "facetious"

"I wasn't being sarcastic I was being facetious".

[Rikker]

If everyone 'misuses' a word, at what point do we just say that the meaning of the word has changed?

The original meaning of 'beg the question' has gone the way of the dodo, and is now used nearly exclusively to mean 'raise the question'. I think this is also true for sarcasm. I think sarcastic is often used to mean something like "saying the opposite of what you mean for rhetorical effect."

Scenario:

A: "My hand is stuck inside this peanut butter jar. Maybe if I mash it around enough the peanut butter will lubricate my hand and it'll come out."

B: "Yeah, that'll work."

Sarcasm, yes or no? Does B really intend to "sharply taunt and ridicule" A? Discuss.

[yoot]

The point I'd like some clarification on from a native speaker is whether พูดประชด is also applicable when you use sarcasm, but in a situation that will never make its way back to your target. For example, say you meet a friend and the friend asks how your visa extension went. So you say, 'I only had to wait four hours at immigration instead of the usual six! I love bureaucracy!' In English this is a clear case of sarcasm, but you're saying it for two reasons. One, to be funny, and two, to insult the ineffectiveness of the immigration bureau. Does ประชด properly apply here?

Yes, it does.

[katana]

Interesting. I'd often wondered as well whether sarcasm (ประชด) in Thai had the same meaning as it does in English and this has helped to clarify things I think.

Here's an earlier example where the speaker says the opposite of what he means ie the undesirable foreign posting is sarcastically compared to winning the lottery. I guess this would be พูดปะชด?

'ถูกหวย' in a negative sense is used when saying something sarcastic.

For example;

เฮ้ย เพื่อน วันนี้ข้าถูกหวยหวะ เจ้านายเรียกไปพบ บอกว่าจะส่งไปทำงานที่ปากีสถาน ซวยจริง ๆ จู่ ๆ ทำไมหวยมาลงที่ข้าได้วะ

"สามล้อถูกหวย" is another good example. If you're called "สามล้อถูกหวย" that means you are being insulted.

And a couple of examples from Thairath where ประชด (without the preceding พูด) seems to be used in the 'spite' sense:

Here a 15 year old girl took her life when her mother didn't buy her the rucksack she wanted, to spite her mother:

ประชดผูกคอตาย น้อยใจแม่ ไม่ซื้อกระเป๋าให้

....ส่วนสาเหตุทางเจ้าหน้าที่ ตร.สันนิษฐานว่า ผู้ตายน่าจะเกิดจากความน้อยใจที่แม่บุญธรรม ไม่ยอมไปซื้อกระเป๋าเป้ให้ จึงคิดสั้นผูกคอตายเพื่อประชดแม่ของตัวเองดังกล่าว ก่อนนำศพไปบำเพ็ญกุศลตามประเพณีศาสนาต่อไป.

And here a Pataya bargirl cut her wrists after an argument with her bf, to spite him:

สาวพัทยาเชือดข้อมือประชดแฟน จนท.ช่วยได้ทัน

[katana]

'ถูกหวย' in a negative sense is used when saying something sarcastic.

For example;

เฮ้ย เพื่อน วันนี้ข้าถูกหวยหวะ เจ้านายเรียกไปพบ บอกว่าจะส่งไปทำงานที่ปากีสถาน ซวยจริง ๆ จู่ ๆ ทำไมหวยมาลงที่ข้าได้วะ

"สามล้อถูกหวย" is another good example. If you're called "สามล้อถูกหวย" that means you are being insulted.

Actually looking back on this, not so sure it is an example of พูดประชด in Thai.

Can anyone confirm? If not, can anyone give any examples in Thai?

Thanks in advance.

[GarryP]

'ถูกหวย' in a negative sense is used when saying something sarcastic.

For example;

เฮ้ย เพื่อน วันนี้ข้าถูกหวยหวะ เจ้านายเรียกไปพบ บอกว่าจะส่งไปทำงานที่ปากีสถาน ซวยจริง ๆ จู่ ๆ ทำไมหวยมาลงที่ข้าได้วะ

"สามล้อถูกหวย" is another good example. If you're called "สามล้อถูกหวย" that means you are being insulted.

Actually looking back on this, not so sure it is an example of พูดประชด in Thai.

Can anyone confirm? If not, can anyone give any examples in Thai?

Thanks in advance.

Could it be an example of ประชดตัวเอง?

[tgeezer]

: "How many Jewish mothers does it take to change a light bulb. Answer: None because they always say "Never mind. I'll just do it myself." Now THAT's ประซด but is it sarcasm?

I don't think it is ประชด because ประชด is a verb.

I have been trying to figure out what it means to me and feel that ประชด is to discomfit someone, it can be spoken or done and it is a demonstration of dissatisfaction.

When the girl hung herself it wasn't speech, when mother-in-law expressed herself it was.

I have 'ploughed through' แกล้ง แดกดัน and for the effect they have on the receiver เดือดรัอน รำคาญ เสแสร้งจงใจ เสียหาย ขัดข้อง ทุกข์ กังวล to come to this conclusion.

I should think that รบกวน could be there somewhere too.

We all have words which we use and don't think of an English word, this could be one of them.

[mikenyork]

TGeezer: If ประซด is a verb only, then where does it fit gramatically into this sentence "เขาว่าผมประซด" and how about "เขาทำประซด" . My answer is that it can be a verb or an adverb.

[DavidHouston]

TGeezer: If ประซด is a verb only, then where does it fit gramatically into this sentence "เขาว่าผมประซด" and how about "เขาทำประซด" . My answer is that it can be a verb or an adverb.

"เขาว่าผมประซด" = "He said that I acted in a spiteful manner."

To my mind the key is the utility of the term in the respective languages' thought patterns, not its structural or taxonomic nature in the grammars. Simple rule: "Determine what the author is saying or writing in the original language and express that thought in the target language."

[DavidHouston]

I agree with Tgeezeer that the term "involves some expression of dissatisfaction". Take these two examples from the press:

"ที่จ.สุรินทร์ . . . นายประดิษฐ์. . . ได้ฉีกบัตรเลือกตั้ง ส.ว. เจ้าหน้าที่จึงนำตัวไปดำเนินคดี โดยนายประดิษฐ์ระบุว่าไม่พอใจที่มีการแจกเงินซื้อเสียงแต่ไม่แจกให้ทั่วถึงจึงประชดด้วยการฉีกบัตรเลือกตั้ง"

In Surin province, Mr. Pradit tore up his ballot in the election for Senator. Election officials thereupon filed a lawsuit against him. Mr. Pradit revealed that he was not happy that money was disbursed to buy votes but that not everyone was paid; he therefore tore up his ballot in symbolic protest.

"แม้นักวิชาการหลายคนไม่เห็นด้วยกับรัฐประหารและไม่อยากเข้ามายุ่งในขั้นตอน คปค. แต่เห็นว่าเมื่อเหตุการณ์ขึ้นมาแล้วก็ไม่อยากจะปิ้งปลาประชดแมว แต่ควรจะมาร่วมมือกัน ไม่อยากให้การสะดุดลงของประเทศเป็นการเตะหมูเข้าปากหมา"

Even though many academics do not agree with the coup and do not wish toget involved with the CDRM process, they do believe that once the event hasalready occurred, they should not just sit back and criticize orsnipe. Rather, they should get together and lend a helping hand. The don't want the nation's stumble [in the democratic process] to result in a free ride [for the military faction].

What do you think?