Excessive Bank Charges.

[SussexExpat]

I've finally managed to get to the bottom of why my bank transfer charges were high thanks to a guy called Ian who works for Bangkok Bank. He saw a comment I had previously made on Thai Visa and took onboard my problem.

It turns out my UK bank were transferring money using the CHAPS system, which is expensive. Bangkok Bank advise I use the BACS system which would be a one off 20GBP payment.

Here is a link on how to transfer funds to your Bangkok Bank via the internet.

http://www.bangkokba...%20Banking.aspx

You learn something new everyday.

Edited October 8, 2010 by cdnvic
Removed some identifying info. (surname)

[cardholder]

Your contact is talking <deleted> - or at least giving only part of the story.

The BACS system is a UK based Bankers Automated Clearing System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BACS

It is NOTHING to with international payments which is by SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecomminication)

http://www.swift.com/

In the case of BKB they are talking about you transferring from a UK bank to the UK BKK office via BACS. They still charge GBP 15 or GBP 20 depending on whether you remit Sterling or Baht.

If you are concerned about excesive charges consider Halifax Bank at GBP9.50 for an online International Payment.

[ianguygil]

Your contact is talking <deleted> - or at least giving only part of the story.

The BACS system is a UK based Bankers Automated Clearing System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BACS

It is NOTHING to with international payments which is by SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecomminication)

http://www.swift.com/

In the case of BKB they are talking about you transferring from a UK bank to the UK BKK office via BACS. They still charge GBP 15 or GBP 20 depending on whether you remit Sterling or Baht.

If you are concerned about excesive charges consider Halifax Bank at GBP9.50 for an online International Payment.

Interesting rant.

The poster spoke the full and accurate truth

The payment via Bangkok Bank London Branch uses the domestic clearing system in the UK to move funds from the account owners bank, to our branch in London. BACS is the cheapest of the 2 major UK domestic payment mechanisms. We then take the funds from an "offset account" and move the funds between our London branch and our Thai head office. All central bank reporting and other regulations are complied with. So the actual SWIFT network is not used. This allows us to offer a lower price than a normal SWIFT payment, which has charges on both ends and you can not control the FX rate.

His problem was that the Bank in question sent the payment to us via CHAPS, which is normally used for high value corporate payments, or those which are very time sensitive (i.e. intra day).

So the poster was correct. And no references to genitalia are required, thank you very much .

Life by WIKIPEDIA and GOOGLE can provide very interesting but partial insights. All may be true, but not the whole story. Very much as I play the piano, all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right sequence :jap: . Thanks

Edited October 8, 2010 by ianguygil

[cardholder]

Your contact is talking <deleted> - or at least giving only part of the story.

The BACS system is a UK based Bankers Automated Clearing System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BACS

It is NOTHING to with international payments which is by SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecomminication)

http://www.swift.com/

In the case of BKB they are talking about you transferring from a UK bank to the UK BKK office via BACS. They still charge GBP 15 or GBP 20 depending on whether you remit Sterling or Baht.

If you are concerned about excesive charges consider Halifax Bank at GBP9.50 for an online International Payment.

Interesting rant.

The poster spoke the full and accurate truth

The payment via Bangkok Bank London Branch uses the domestic clearing system in the UK to move funds from the account owners bank, to our branch in London. BACS is the cheapest of the 2 major UK domestic payment mechanisms. We then take the funds from an "offset account" and move the funds between our London branch and our Thai head office. All central bank reporting and other regulations are complied with. So the actual SWIFT network is not used. This allows us to offer a lower price than a normal SWIFT payment, which has charges on both ends and you can not control the FX rate.

His problem was that the Bank in question sent the payment to us via CHAPS, which is normally used for high value corporate payments, or those which are very time sensitive (i.e. intra day).

So the poster was correct. And no references to genitalia are required, thank you very much .

Life by WIKIPEDIA and GOOGLE can provide very interesting but partial insights. All may be true, but not the whole story. Very much as I play the piano, all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right sequence :jap: . Thanks

I always admired Les dawson's ability to play the piano out of tune - most entertaining.

So why not transfer straight from Halifax bank to Bangkok Bank ?

Open a Reward account, get GBP 5.00 'reward' every month for transferring GBP1,000 and the net cost of the transfer 'out' is GBP 4.50. Pesumably, BKB will only charge a maximum 500 Baht for the inward payment ? GBP 15.00 overall and a decent rate of exchange sounds good value to me.

[cardholder]

Ian - I have re-read the OP.

Bangkok Bank advise I use the BACS system which would be a one off 20GBP payment.

I interpreted this as a direct reference to a BACS payment costing GBP 20.00 (to remit funds directly to Thailand).

Having taken the time ro read the post again, and look at BKB website, I can see that Sussexexpat is talking about the costs of getting funds internally transferred in the UK.

I apologise for the "<deleted>" reference. The OP was not clear but I made the wrong conclusion - sorry.

His bank have indeed totally misunderstood his requirements by using CHAPS to get funds to your London office. He could obviously send the payment to you online - convenient and cost-free.

I still think Halifax online to Thailand represents best value and convenience.

[ianguygil]

Ian - I have re-read the OP.

Bangkok Bank advise I use the BACS system which would be a one off 20GBP payment.

I interpreted this as a direct reference to a BACS payment costing GBP 20.00 (to remit funds directly to Thailand).

Having taken the time ro read the post again, and look at BKB website, I can see that Sussexexpat is talking about the costs of getting funds internally transferred in the UK.

I apologise for the "<deleted>" reference. The OP was not clear but I made the wrong conclusion - sorry.

His bank have indeed totally misunderstood his requirements by using CHAPS to get funds to your London office. He could obviously send the payment to you online - convenient and cost-free.

I still think Halifax online to Thailand represents best value and convenience.

Hey, no problem. That is breakfast talk where I grew up:D

I think this is a very confusing subject for many people, particularly those who live in other countries and spend time in Thalland. Which is why I spend part of my own time to try to help out here. I am not trawling for business, although we always appreciate the business of those who choose us.. But I offer advice and assistance, where possible, but being realistic I know I can only touch the surface on this forum.

So please all fee free to contact me. And don't let the occasional genital reference get in your way:jap: .

[JimGant]

All central bank reporting and other regulations are complied with. So the actual SWIFT network is not used. This allows us to offer a lower price than a normal SWIFT payment, which has charges on both ends and you can not control the FX rate.

Ian, a bit confused here...about the "you can not control the FX rate." (And maybe this is a Uk to TH problem...)

My wire transfers from the States have always received the Telex (TT)

rate -- and all my transfers have been SWIFT encoded. What pipeline they've crossed the pond on (SWIFT, or not), I don't know. But, it's never made any difference -- and I know Bangkok Bank NY has not been the correspondent bank in at least two of the wires.

SWIFT wires from USAA Federal Savings Bank, and SunTrust Bank, have always received the TT rate. And, ACH transfers via BB NY, have also always received the TT rate...

So, not sure why you'd never get the TT rate for any EFT transfer from the West to Thailand... Possibly, as I alluded to earlier, this might be a EU to TH thingy....

And, relatedly, the interbank exchange rate (IER) is always 12-20 satang above the TT rate. And, the IER is referred to as the "base rate." So, we've always got this built-in 'spread' between the IER and TT. Question: Is this spread used to cover costs; pure profit; or both?

Thanx (just trying to get educated in my old age).

[JimGant]

I still think Halifax online to Thailand represents best value and convenience.

Cardholder, per a previous thread (which, I believe, you and I traded info), Halifax online was definitely the cheapest, and easiest, means of transferring GBPs to Thailand. However, the 'kicker' was the prohibition of UK to Thailand transfers. You, by phone, tap-danced around this prohibition -- but, to me, this sounded like it could be problematic for future on-line transfers.

Anyway, Halifax's website says nothing anymore about prohibitions against on-line money transfers to Thailand.

Is this your latest take? If so, Halifax -- at 4.5 GBPs per transfer -- plus the utility of solely keystrokes on the Internet -- is the way to go for Brits.

[ianguygil]

All central bank reporting and other regulations are complied with. So the actual SWIFT network is not used. This allows us to offer a lower price than a normal SWIFT payment, which has charges on both ends and you can not control the FX rate.

Ian, a bit confused here...about the "you can not control the FX rate." (And maybe this is a Uk to TH problem...)

My wire transfers from the States have always received the Telex (TT)

rate -- and all my transfers have been SWIFT encoded. What pipeline they've crossed the pond on (SWIFT, or not), I don't know. But, it's never made any difference -- and I know Bangkok Bank NY has not been the correspondent bank in at least two of the wires.

SWIFT wires from USAA Federal Savings Bank, and SunTrust Bank, have always received the TT rate. And, ACH transfers via BB NY, have also always received the TT rate...

So, not sure why you'd never get the TT rate for any EFT transfer from the West to Thailand... Possibly, as I alluded to earlier, this might be a EU to TH thingy....

And, relatedly, the interbank exchange rate (IER) is always 12-20 satang above the TT rate. And, the IER is referred to as the "base rate." So, we've always got this built-in 'spread' between the IER and TT. Question: Is this spread used to cover costs; pure profit; or both?

Thanx (just trying to get educated in my old age).

Jim,

Thanks for the note.

What I mean is that you can not control which intermediary banks will be used with a normal SWIFT payment. So you can not control who will set the rate.

For example, if the USAA pays through CITI globally (for example, I am not saying they do) you would have the payment sent USAA to CITI Bangkok via SWIFT (or their internal equivalent) and the FX rate would be set by CITI in Bangkok for the USD to THB exchange (this is assuming you are not moving a huge amount and you do not have an FX contract to cover it).

Then CITI in Bangkok would send it to Bangkok Bank via local clearing. So you, like the customer from Australia who had a similar problem with intermediaries, would get hit with an FX rate which is not as good as with one of the largest "market makers" like us, and the costs on both sides of a domestic payment for moving the cash to us in Thailand. And if the chose the most expensive option for that the costs can be high (if they choose the equivalent of FEDWIRE instead of the equivalent of ACH). All these nasties befell our friend from Australia, and to him at first it looked very much like we had given him a crappy FX rate and we had delayed the payment. But we had not. It was the interimediaries who delayed, set the FX rate, and took most of the fees.

Please let me know if this is clear. I am in an all day Saturday meeting so I have time to respond for once. Thanks

Ian

[cardholder]

I still think Halifax online to Thailand represents best value and convenience.

Cardholder, per a previous thread (which, I believe, you and I traded info), Halifax online was definitely the cheapest, and easiest, means of transferring GBPs to Thailand. However, the 'kicker' was the prohibition of UK to Thailand transfers. You, by phone, tap-danced around this prohibition -- but, to me, this sounded like it could be problematic for future on-line transfers.

Anyway, Halifax's website says nothing anymore about prohibitions against on-line money transfers to Thailand.

Is this your latest take? If so, Halifax -- at 4.5 GBPs per transfer -- plus the utility of solely keystrokes on the Internet -- is the way to go for Brits.

Hi Jim,

It looks like the Halifax have 'softened' their approach:-

The following 3 lines appear on the 'sign on' page for Online Banking - the 'Important Message' follows.

If you receive an email asking for your log on details, please don’t reply as it will be fraudulent but forward it to [email protected].

If you are not a UK resident, or are trying to access this site from outside the UK, please read this important message.

Halifax is a division of Bank of Scotland plc. Registered in Scotland No. SC327000. Registered Office: The Mound, Edinburgh, EH1 1YZ.

Important Message

Please note that information and material published on this website is intended for use by UK residents only. Be aware it is your responsibility to ensure that by viewing this website, you are not breaking any laws or regulations of the country that you are in.

The products available on this website are offered only to customers accessing the site in the UK, and the information contained within should not be seen as an offer or invitation to sell any products outside the UK.

This website must not be used to make online applications to open new accounts whilst you are outside the UK. We will not accept applications for products made from outside the UK.

You may be interested in the services offered by Halifax International Ltd a subsidiary of Lloyds Banking Group which offers accounts specifically designed for British nationals living overseas.

The information contained in this site is only intended for use by or distribution to any person, company or other body in any jurisdiction or country where such use or distribution would not break local laws or regulations.

The above highlighted section previously included a comment about 'transfers'.

On their Online conditions I found:-

10 General

• Our online service is available to UK residents only. If you are outside the UK you can only use our online service to view information or perform transactions on your accounts but not to open new accounts. If you want to use the service outside the UK you must check local regulations to make sure it is legal to do.
  

We strongly recommend that you print a copy of these conditions for your reference.

This now seems to contradict earlier statements.

Good news all round.

I still think a word of caution is necessary because 'random security measures' will inevitably mean that you will occasionally be suspended (rather like foreign ATM card users).

[JimGant]

you would have the payment sent USAA to CITI Bangkok via SWIFT (or their internal equivalent)

If, on my wire instruction sheet, I only put BB's SWIFT address, wouldn't this preclude CITI Bangkok from being in the loop? I.e., even if USAA uses CITI as a correspondent bank to get my money to Thailand, this process is concluded in New York, then sent directly to BB Thailand? (For CITI Bangkok to get involved, wouldn't their SWIFT code have to appear in the intermediary block on my wire instruction sheet?)

[ianguygil]

you would have the payment sent USAA to CITI Bangkok via SWIFT (or their internal equivalent)

If, on my wire instruction sheet, I only put BB's SWIFT address, wouldn't this preclude CITI Bangkok from being in the loop? I.e., even if USAA uses CITI as a correspondent bank to get my money to Thailand, this process is concluded in New York, then sent directly to BB Thailand? (For CITI Bangkok to get involved, wouldn't their SWIFT code have to appear in the intermediary block on my wire instruction sheet?)

Jim,

No. There is a term you can use in SWIFT (I will need to look it up) to say do not use intermediaries. But one bank can pay another via SWIFT without the use of Intermediaries only if they have a correspondent relationship. So that means the banks have accounts with each other. And that requires a commercial relationship. Most banks try to keep the number of such relationships to a minimum in each country; Luckily, being the largest bank in Thailand we are the most likely for your bank to have a relationship with. But many regional banks (& USAA fits there) use a global player like Citi to clear funds around the world.

The SWIFT address just identifies the Bank (the Beneficiary Bank) to send the instruction to, not now the funds will be cleared.

I really do not know about USAA, so you should ask them yourself directly. And tell them you want to pay directly to Bangkok Bank in Thailand and ask if they have a correspondent relationship to support this.

Or......................

Just pay via our New York branch as I would always recommend to Americans.

Edited October 10, 2010 by ianguygil

[JimGant]

I really do not know about USAA, so you should ask them yourself directly. And tell them you want to pay directly to Bangkok Bank in Thailand and ask if they have a correspondent relationship to support this.

USAA's SWIFT wire transfers have always taken one business day -- and have received the advertised TT rate at BB. So too with SunTrust -- several years back when I was with them. Haven't the foggiest who their correspondent bank(s) are -- but since I had no problems, I really wasn't concerned.

I was just curious about the OZ chap who apparently got ripped-off because of too many SWIFT wickets to go through -- and your awareness that such wickets can -- and do -- exist. Curious, because of all the years perusing this forum, I have never seen any SWIFT wires from the States criticized for FX gouging, except when baht was mistakingly sent, vice dollars. But, then, I may have missed something.......

Anyway, just curious about how such things can occur.

[ianguygil]

I really do not know about USAA, so you should ask them yourself directly. And tell them you want to pay directly to Bangkok Bank in Thailand and ask if they have a correspondent relationship to support this.

USAA's SWIFT wire transfers have always taken one business day -- and have received the advertised TT rate at BB. So too with SunTrust -- several years back when I was with them. Haven't the foggiest who their correspondent bank(s) are -- but since I had no problems, I really wasn't concerned.

I was just curious about the OZ chap who apparently got ripped-off because of too many SWIFT wickets to go through -- and your awareness that such wickets can -- and do -- exist. Curious, because of all the years perusing this forum, I have never seen any SWIFT wires from the States criticized for FX gouging, except when baht was mistakingly sent, vice dollars. But, then, I may have missed something.......

Anyway, just curious about how such things can occur.

Jim

I will try to go back to the post and send you a link.

What it is (why it can happen) is that some large global banks sell themselves as the global clearing agent for many regional banks so as to simplify their lives, give discounts on volume, just like in any business. Seems you have just been lucky. But that is why having an account with us is advantageous as you are much more likely to find your bank has a correspondent relationship with us compared to smaller rivals. We have a large percentage of our business on the International side compared to all Thai competitors.

[ianguygil]

I really do not know about USAA, so you should ask them yourself directly. And tell them you want to pay directly to Bangkok Bank in Thailand and ask if they have a correspondent relationship to support this.

USAA's SWIFT wire transfers have always taken one business day -- and have received the advertised TT rate at BB. So too with SunTrust -- several years back when I was with them. Haven't the foggiest who their correspondent bank(s) are -- but since I had no problems, I really wasn't concerned.

I was just curious about the OZ chap who apparently got ripped-off because of too many SWIFT wickets to go through -- and your awareness that such wickets can -- and do -- exist. Curious, because of all the years perusing this forum, I have never seen any SWIFT wires from the States criticized for FX gouging, except when baht was mistakingly sent, vice dollars. But, then, I may have missed something.......

Anyway, just curious about how such things can occur.

Jim

I will try to go back to the post and send you a link.

What it is (why it can happen) is that some large global banks sell themselves as the global clearing agent for many regional banks so as to simplify their lives, give discounts on volume, just like in any business. Seems you have just been lucky. But that is why having an account with us is advantageous as you are much more likely to find your bank has a correspondent relationship with us compared to smaller rivals. We have a large percentage of our business on the International side compared to all Thai competitors.

Jim,

This is the term you need to use to tell your local bank to pay directly and not to go through a Thai intermediary. As I said before this only works if your bank has a correspondent relationship with us. I got this from our Global Payments people when the prior guy from OZ had a problem and his payment was cleared via Citi in Bangkok.

"please advise the remitter to state "Do Not Convert" in the payment message field of the telegraphic transfer form. The funds should then be remitted directly to Bangkok Bank."