German Arrested + Deported

[monitorlizard]

When they start going to language schools and busting teachers then I would really start to worry.

I think that if they did this then it would be a drastic improvement on the quality of education in Thailand. I think busting the overextended-stay backpackers masquerading as English teachers should be on the top of the list. Anyway, I think they are thining out as it is getting more difficult to renew their 30 day tourist visa for the 20th time. Also,I hear the visa running agencies are now out of business.

Is it wrong to ask for experienced and qualified teachers to work in the Thai schools? Would this be acceptable in the west? I think not.

Reminds me of the time I met a non-Englsih speaking European woman with the thickest accent I ever heard. Her sentence structure and vocabulary wasn't that impressive either. Anyway, she was on her way to teach English in Cambodia, Vietnam, or possibly Laos.

[monitorlizard]

Well here is a sketchy update from my friend. The German in question was a good friend of his business partner. I called my friend today and he was very sick (again) and he could only tell me the following as his partner was out of the office.

The man did not have a WP

The man was on a tourist visa

The man ran a computer repair business (fixing computers)

The man did business for restaurants, etc.

The police came to his house to arrest him

The man was given a fine

The man was deported from Thailand

The Thai immigration stamped "something" in his passport

The above was all the information I managed to get without any speculation made by my friend.

My friend "guesses"and I emphasize guesses that he did some work for a business. The customer was not happy and it resulted in a dispute. The customer informed the authorities and some agency came to his house to arrest him.

That's all I managed to get folks. My friend will be in bed recovering from his illness all this weekend. He didn't appear to be in the mood to quiz his partner for all the details.

Anyway, all I am saying is to be careful. Have a nice weekend.

[fat_bald_farang]

"and the privledge you have of being there..." (thailand)

and what are those exactly?

fatty

[Indo-Siam]

Hi ML -

OK, this sounds reasonable. My guess: Immigration violation - entry permit overstay, maybe coupled with a phony visa stamp. Any guy who "has a house" but is here "on a tourist visa" and runs a computer business that has commercial businesses as regular clientele - without a work permit - is certainly operating in dodgy territory.

I would expect that such a character would probably be a habitual user of dodgy visa services (bad stamps), and - when a crackdown on fake stamps was announced - would probably defer a visa run until "things cooled down" - figuring he could just pay an overstay fine later (max 20,000 baht).

Then - he got in a dispute with the wrong customer (restuarant owners will tend to know the Thai bureaucracy better than most - as a licensing necessity). So, someone tipped immigration off, to teach the guy a lesson. Which it did.

So - this is not a case that applies to work permit holders doing something a shade of gray other than stated in work permit. This is about a compounded visa violation, and blatant (lack of) work permit violation, coupled with poor judgement in allowing a controversey to grow while you are in a vulnerable status.

The scenario I propose is - I admit - wild conjecture - but based on my recognition of typical patterns of dodgy farangs in Bangkok. "Som nam nah"

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[morphic]

re monitorlizard's post on English teachers

You say the quality of education would be improved without the visa running backpackers masquerading as teachers. Well, these people may not, on the whole, be qualified teachers, and a few may be little better than conmen, but, they do speak and write English, and come very cheap. The choice is really either them or nothing, and nothing would definitely be a lot worse! Can you really imagine any degree educated professional agreeing to work for 20,000 baht a month (or less, even nothing)? Maybe one or two, but no where near enough. I think if the authorities do crackdown on these people, and they certainly have a legal right to do so, they will in effect be cutting off their nose to spite their face. A 'real' teacher would cost atleast 60,000 baht a month and unless the Thai's and whinging falangs put up, I really think they should shutup.

[fat_bald_farang]

well i'm a university lecturer and the level of english that is being touted around by some micky mouse teachers is alarming. no wonder the thai's don't speak very good english. perhaps if these people gave it up then thailand might pay decent money for teaching. 40,000 seems a reasonable figure to me?

fatty

[morphic]

fatty

oh, come on fatty, surely your powers of analysis are better than that. the reason for thai's poor english is their schools don't devote enough teaching time to the subject, especially in spoken form. it isn't that they are picking up bad habits from falangs!

as for 40,000 baht a month, i doubt you'd attract good teachers for that. perhaps a fresh grad who wanted a year abroad, or some desperate person, with no other options, intent on staying in thailand. but large quantities of professionals, NO.

[fat_bald_farang]

sure it would have to depend on the terms and conditions on a sliding scale but i think if the conditions were right then you would get retired teachers coming out of the wood work. yes, 40,000 thai money is ok if they don't work you to death. i think what really goes against getting good teachers is the 'boot camp' long hours/no time off etc. rather than the poor pay. teacher's need short contact hours or they burn out... and i know in many thai schools they have no concept of 'recharging' the battery. also just because someone can speak some english and write a sentence doesn't make them a good teacher. what i have seen of the tefl out here? you can't get 5 years teaching experience in 6 weeks and when the starting material is so poor. i think we have to think in terms of quality rather than quantity!

yes i agree with you about the contact english hours in thai schools and i know some 'thai' english teachers.. oh dear.. well never mind.

fatty

[nitro]

The Boiler room boy several years back, were fined 5,000 Baht and deported. They were put on the Persona Non Grata list.

Is this typical for not working without a permit or simply they were in the headlines?

As far as I know, the standard fine for working without a work permit is still 5,000 baht. The violator is deported in many cases, but unless it was something serious, the person isn't put on the persona non grata list.

[monitorlizard]

well i'm a university lecturer and the level of english that is being touted around by some micky mouse teachers is alarming. no wonder the thai's don't speak very good english.

Well said Fatty! I agree with you 100% I am sure you take enormous offense when a backpacker with no university degree is referred to as "ajarn". I imagine you are very well qualified and have an advanced degree. I would imagine that you find it insulting to be be classified in the same profession as the backpacker teacher?

sure it would have to depend on the terms and conditions on a sliding scale but i think if the conditions were right then you would get retired teachers coming out of the wood work.

Fatty, you are on a roll! Another excellent point! I think they would indeed come out of the wood work. Also, I think Thailand would be a wonderful destination for young university TEACHING graduates to come and work for a year or two.

Here is a scene taken about 7 years ago. I was drinking a beer and minding my own buiness but I could not help myself over hearing a conversation bewtween 2 backpackers.

Backpacker #1 Yeah man, I'm a teacher.

Backpacker #2 Cool. Is it hard work?

Backpacker #1 No way, like man I just sit on top of my desk and teach 'em slang. The dudes really like it. Man, the chicks are so beautiful.

Backpacker #2 Man, you got it made. Me, my money is almost out man. I got to go home, my folks won't send me any more money. They said to finish university or get a job. What a bummer.

Backpacker #1 No way! Hey, my parents said the same thing. Get a job as a teacher. I think the dude from Sweden quit at my place man. Come with me tomorrow the Thai owner is not so bad. I'm sure you can get a job.

Backpacker #2 Way cool man. Hey, can I get another beer for my friend man. How much is a small one? OK just checking. Cool.

Backpacker #1 Oh one more thing. You have to trim your hair a little and the owner doesn't like the teachers to wear ear rings. Man I don't miss it that much but I always put it back in when I go partying man. And you can't wear sandels. No worry man, I know a place where this old Thai man sells used shoes on the street. What size are you man? What? Me too! This is way cool man. Hey let's go to the old man now. His shop is set up now.......

I am sure this is still happening today.

[Guest IT Manager]

well I'm a university lecturer and the level of English that is being touted around by some Micky mouse teachers is alarming. no wonder the Thais don't speak very good English. perhaps if these people gave it up then Thailand might pay decent money for teaching. 40,000 seems a reasonable figure to me?

fatty

The level of English being touted by Mickey Mouse Schools has nothing to do with the level of English spoken by Thai people per se.

English is taught in Thai schools, by Thai teachers, who don't speak it themselves. Ergo, children don't "hear" English, they see it written on the board, and copied into their books.

The generational change required, is that Rajjabhat teach Language Teachers (Thai people who will be teaching language), in the language they will be teaching, be it French German, Japanese or English. If that means using Native English speakers, so be it.

If as a University Lecturer, you have not come across a mindset of "fill in the gaps" learning, then what Uni are you at? It's exactly why so many employers prefer an overseas qualification from a University. The students have been learning, not being taught. I know I will not need to re-iterate this for you, due to your position.

The Science of Education as practiced everywhere else, is centred on "learning", not teaching. Here the limitation imposed on the learning, is what the teachers knows and can impart, instead of being a process of encouraging, supporting, nurturing and driving forward the need to know, the thirst to learn more, and to do it unassisted.

[easymoney]

The sad fact is that you get what you pay for and in Thailand they want cheap. In countries in this region far below Thailand on the economic ladder (ie Vietnam) teachers are paid 60 to 80k baht a month.

I am always amazed at the wages they pay the Thai teachers . in some areas of the country teachers are not required to have a University degree.

Till the politicans and goverment officials wakeup Thais will suffer.

Too the farangs that come here make good or big money with legal WP, stop justifing not paying a deceint wage or at least providing on going education and self improvement for their employees or collegues the situtation will not change. Lead by example.

Sure the low life backpacker/forever 30 day tourist types are much worst than the parasites that come to Thailand for the most part the same reason as the aforemention. Ask yourselfs how much do I pay my housegirl/maid, driver etc. When and if I leave Thailand have I provided more ,than the pittance I paid them, prepared for a better life .

[tracer0]

Hi ML -

I'd be very interested to learn the details - the really fine details. Particularly:

Exactly what sort of police arrested him? In what jurisdiction?

What sort of visa and entry permit did he have? How many days validity were still remaining on his entry permit?

Did he have a valid work permit for other work?

What sort of computers in what sort of a business? (No surprise if he was fixing computers for an illegal outbound VOIP calling card operation that got busted, or similar).

I would be totally amazed if an otherwise fully legal guy doing nothing but helping a neighbor replace a hard drive for 500 baht was arrested and deported just for that.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

I have a computer business and am 100% legal with workpermit.

Germans are a special headache case as many here donot speak proper English and many are very very stingy.

Like happened a few days ago when a guy blew his motherboard and wanted a cheap replacement. 3000 baht for second hand board under waranty/processor, same as he had, an hour later he was back in business. Alternative a lot more expensive. Next day he complaining about his friend saying you get new motherboards for 1500 baht... His friends KNOWS computers. Also seemingly knows me and was so friendly to tell him to be careful.

As customer knows nill about computers that makes him an expert...

I donot know HIS friend who knows all but want to bet he works illegally??

Talk to labour office and you will hear its not the Thais complaining about farangs. Its farangs complaining about farangs. And YES, you fix computer and get paid with a beer, not just 500 baht, you work without workpermit.

I personally would be very happy, not moneywise, if they cleaned all these e xperts out. One of them, hasnt even got a passport, is here on his brothers, a known conman, but they like him. Setup a farang on loxinfo, dialing to BKK long distance... costs 15000 baht to customer.

if you cannot get any decent computer expert here to work as they can make much more money staying at home and just taking many vacations here, why should you expect to find them locally????

Only reason I ended up here was that girlfriend didnt want to goto europe.. and neither did I to be honest..

[beerlao]

Hi there,

I am doing business over the internet. I am selling garments to Germany (private customers only). Do I need a Thai work permit for that? Even i am collecting the money in Germany? I suppose I need one as I am staying in Thailand( Non-Immigrant visa). It would be nice to have a reply to my question.

Cheers Beerlao

[Indo-Siam]

Beerlao -

Technically, you do need a work permit. But to get that work permit, you first need a registered Thai company to work for- a company with at least two million baht paid-in capital and at least four Thai employees. With a registered business address in a building where the building owner has certified that the company is a registered tenant.

So - it is a BIG step from your informal set-up to being fully legal.

Realistically, if your only work-related activities inside Thailand are shopping for goods, interacting on the internet, and mailing out packages - you probably have little to worry about. But - you will not be in a position to do anything if a Thai supplier cheats you, or any other situatiuon arises where you need legal "standing".

Your non-immigrant class B entry permit protects you from being treated as an immigration violator, but it does not authorize you to work. Only a work permit authorizes you to work (hence its name: work permit). Many people on this board mistakenly believe that a Class B entry permit allows employment - all it does is mean that you won't go to IDC if caught - you have not committed an immigration violation, you have committed an illegal employment violation - so you go to a different jail.

As long as you jkeep a low profile, and make no vengeful enemies here, you should be OK - 'just gotta make visa runs every 90 days.

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[beerlao]

Indo Siam,

Thanks so much for your reply. I feel much better now. If my activities will grow bigger and bigger I will have to think about setting up a company myself, but I am not that far yet. Anyway, will let you know if I reach this point.

Greets Beerlao

[Guest IT Manager]

Unfortunately you don't need to be rippin off your customers for one of them to take a disliking to you and then turn you in to the authorities.

Boy isn't that the truth. All you need is a drunk and he doesn't need to be a customer. Never trust a scotch person in Hash Pub I reckon.