Translate My Name Into Thai (Urgent!)

[allotments]

Please could somebody kindly tell me how to write my name in Thai?

Forename : Paul

Surname : Jones

This is really urgent

Thanks in advance

[mikenyork]

Paul พอล this spelling will give you a rounded, British a as in posh British

"all" (sounds to an American like "awl")

If you wanted a broader, American a for a vowel, you could spell it พาล

Either way, words can't end in an "l" sound in Thai, so the final sound, in Thai pronunciation is going to be an "n" sound. Don't feel bad Michael becomes Miken. And you could be named Wayne, which means something close to terrible fate as a consequence of ones own sins and bad acts.

๋Jones is more straightforward โจนซ์

Hope this helps.

[allotments]

Thanks mikenyork

My baby boy was born today. Need this for documentation.

The baby's name will be Jack

I have a translation already, but would really appreciate your version to double check. I like the detailed explanation you gave me. Really appreciated.

[yoot]

Paul Jones - พอล โจนส์

FYI, don't translate the name as พาล, it means wicked person in Thai language.

[allotments]

Paul Jones - พอล โจนส์

FYI, don't translate the name as พาล, it means wicked person in Thai language.

OK I won't use พาล then!

[onnut]

Cant help you with your name translation but I must say that Jack is a great name for a baby.

I named my boy Jack as well, it must be getting popular.

[SamboVilla]

แจ็ค is the most common used version for Jack. Although with the vowel แ it ends up sounding something like Jaek which is no problem if you're American. My name, Sam, (แซม) always sounds more like Saaem, but I think that's because if you say "Sam" with a flat English accent it's a swear word!

[allotments]

แจ็ค is the most common used version for Jack. Although with the vowel แ it ends up sounding something like Jaek which is no problem if you're American. My name, Sam, (แซม) always sounds more like Saaem, but I think that's because if you say "Sam" with a flat English accent it's a swear word!

Thanks SamboVilla

That's the spelling I expected

[Groongthep]

Paul พอล this spelling will give you a rounded, British a as in posh British

"all" (sounds to an American like "awl")

Either way, words can't end in an "l" sound in Thai, so the final sound, in Thai pronunciation is going to be an "n" sound. Don't feel bad Michael becomes Miken. And you could be named Wayne, which means something close to terrible fate as a consequence of ones own sins and bad acts.

You are right that Thai words can't end with an "l" sound, so in Thai pronunciation the พอล spelling is going to end with an "awn" sound instead of an "all" or "awl" sound. In other words the พอล spelling is going to sound like "Pawn".

I suggest you use the silencing symbol kaaran above the ล and spell it ผอล์. The resulting sound will be similar to "Paw" (which can mean "sufficient" or "enough" when spoken with a mid tone) but in my opinion "Paw" is closer to Paul than "Pawn". The kaaran will also indicate to native Thai readers that the spelling is derived from another language.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Groongthep

[Scottish Thailander]

Paul พอล this spelling will give you a rounded, British a as in posh British

"all" (sounds to an American like "awl")

Either way, words can't end in an "l" sound in Thai, so the final sound, in Thai pronunciation is going to be an "n" sound. Don't feel bad Michael becomes Miken. And you could be named Wayne, which means something close to terrible fate as a consequence of ones own sins and bad acts.

You are right that Thai words can't end with an "l" sound, so in Thai pronunciation the พอล spelling is going to end with an "awn" sound instead of an "all" or "awl" sound. In other words the พอล spelling is going to sound like "Pawn".

I suggest you use the silencing symbol kaaran above the ล and spell it ผอล์. The resulting sound will be similar to "Paw" (which can mean "sufficient" or "enough" when spoken with a mid tone) but in my opinion "Paw" is closer to Paul than "Pawn". The kaaran will also indicate to native Thai readers that the spelling is derived from another language.

Agreed. I have 2 ( ์) gaarans in my name; one in my first and one in my surname. Once people see it and know it is because the name is of foreign origin, some even pronounce the gaarand letter(s) to give the full original pronunciation of the name. Think that is your best option.

ST.

[SimonN]

The kaaran will also indicate to native Thai readers that the spelling is derived from another language.

The "ล" at the end of "พอล" already indicates that it derives from another language, no need to add the karan.

[DavidHouston]

Consider that there are two reasons to write a foreign name in Thai orthography: 1. to represent to the Thai reader how the name sounds when pronounced; and, 2. to provide the Thai reader a notion of how the name is spelled if romanized. The process to arrive at the first objective is called "phonetic transcription" while the process to arrive at an approximation of spelling is called "transliteration".

Paul is an interesting study of these two objectives. As has been pointed out above, if you do not wish Thais to pronounce the "n" sound at the end of the word that would come naturally to them, then you might write "พอล์". This spelling also has the effect of indicating that the European spelling does contain a final "l" but that you would not wish the Thai speaker to pronounce that sound.

By way of contrast note how the large industrial company "Shell" spells its name in Thailand: "เชลล์". I suspect that this formulation was created well before the Royal Institute created its transcription rules. However, one should note that the company decided to leave the final "l" in its transcription, despite the fact that Thais might pronounce the word like "Shane". The "karan" over the second ล allows the company to preserve its original spelling, but to keep the reader from saying, "Chae-lon".

I agree with Simon, above, the spelling of พอล is uniquely foreign; if one really wanted to have the Thais say, "Porn" for "Paul, one would write "พร".

Edited October 22, 2010 by DavidHouston

[Groongthep]

A very good analysis as always David but your last sentence threw me a bit. Consider that the commonly accepted spelling of the common English name John is จอห์น. Why would ผอล์ be much different? In both cases I assume the use of the karan is to simply try to approximate the actual sound of the correct English pronunciation. จอหน would also be a uniquely foreign spelling but the karan is used anyway. Besides, why would anyone want Paul to be pronounced Pawn or Porn as in พร when "Paul" sounds nothing like that?

[mikenyork]

Wouldn't จอหน be joh hon(rising tone)? And isn't the garan to show the spelling of the original foreign word rather than to help correctly pronounce that word as it would be pronounced in the original language?

There are names that are perfectly ok in one language which, when taken over into another just don't work well. When my first-born was close to coming out to see the world, I suggested to a friend that if the baby were a boy we planned to name him ไมตรี. My friend looked at me incredulously and said "You plan to name your son 'my tree'????" Time for plan B. "Well," I allowed, "We're also considering สันติพาบ. "Oh!, That's better!", said my friend, "Then he can go through life being known as "Sodapop". OOOOKKKKKKKK, Plan C. (This was before ultrasound. "It" turned out to be a girl.)

[SimonN]

I've always been under the impression that a karan is used when Thai orhography cannot accomadate a foreign loan word.

[DavidHouston]

A very good analysis as always David but your last sentence threw me a bit. Consider that the commonly accepted spelling of the common English name John is จอห์น. Why would ผอล์ be much different? In both cases I assume the use of the karan is to simply try to approximate the actual sound of the correct English pronunciation. จอหน would also be a uniquely foreign spelling but the karan is used anyway. Besides, why would anyone want Paul to be pronounced Pawn or Porn as in พร when "Paul" sounds nothing like that?

Krungthep,

Perhaps I was not clear. There are two reasons to write Western words into Thai: Transcription to reflect sounds and transliteration to reflect spelling. The use of the ล at the end is both to reflect the English spelling and the way most Thais pronounce the word. The Royal Institute indicates that words like "Shell" should be spelled with one ล as the final consonant and one ล with a "karan" to indicate that the second ล is not pronounced.

You are assuming that the purpose of the Thai writing of English is solely for phonetic transcription purposes. The truth is a bit broader. Furthermore, your notion that "'Paul' sounds nothing like that" is true only for your ears. To the Thai ear, Paun may sound much closer to Paul than Paw does.

[Groongthep]

Krungthep,

You are assuming that the purpose of the Thai writing of English is solely for phonetic transcription purposes. The truth is a bit broader. Furthermore, your notion that "'Paul' sounds nothing like that" is true only for your ears. To the Thai ear, Paun may sound much closer to Paul than Paw does.

Perhaps you are right that to the Thai ear Paun may sound much closer to Paul than Paw does. I did not think of that, but I did qualify my statement with "in my opinion".... I was speaking from an English speaker's (and listener's) point of view. I guess I should have been a bit more broad minded.

Also, I was referring specifically about people's given names not the entire way Thais write English derived words. Thais can spell foreign names anyway they like, but from a practical standpoint nobody likes to hear their name terribly mispronounced and if this young boy named Paul grows up being called Paun then I don't think that is what the OP wanted when he asked how he should spell his son's name in Thai. Once again, just my opinion for whatever it is worth.

BTW, I agree that your spelling of my forum name as Krungthep is much more correct than the one I use but five years ago when I originally signed up, a very similar spelling I was going to use was already taken so I used Groongthep not thinking much about it. That was well before I was aware of the great controversy and emotional reactions that the spelling of Thai words in Roman characters can elicit on this forum. If I had it to do all over again I would have chosen a completely non-Thai related moniker, but I've grown used to it now even though it is actually quite bad.

[LazyYogi]

A very good analysis as always David but your last sentence threw me a bit. Consider that the commonly accepted spelling of the common English name John is จอห์น. Why would ผอล์ be much different? In both cases I assume the use of the karan is to simply try to approximate the actual sound of the correct English pronunciation. จอหน would also be a uniquely foreign spelling but the karan is used anyway. Besides, why would anyone want Paul to be pronounced Pawn or Porn as in พร when "Paul" sounds nothing like that?

As someone else said จอหน would be said as 2 syllables: jɔɔ-hǒn

And regardless of the debate about using a garan, I'm not sure why you'd want to spell Paul as ผอล์ with a ผ instead of a พ.

ผอล์ would have to be said with a rising tone because of the initial high-class consonant.

[meadish_sweetball]

Thais can spell foreign names anyway they like

The thing is though, that Thais actually have established ways of spelling names that are common in the English-language world. If you search Thai text corpora of edited texts (i.e. not Google as that will turn up much more variation due to typos and misspellings, deliberate or not, as with any language) you'll see there is relative uniformity.

You can choose to deviate from this, but should be aware that Thais are likely to see your differing spelling as 'off' or perhaps even 'incorrect' because it differs from what they are used to.

[Rikker]

Strongly agree with Meadish here. I'd recommend following Yoot's suggestion and ignoring the rest, even if they are well-meaning.

Just as I can spell Robert 'Rohbbeart' or Harry 'Hairriey', if I so please, it wouldn't make much sense to do. Thai has established conventional spellings for common foreign names, and while of course one doesn't have to follow the convention, there's not much sense in advising people not to.

[Groongthep]

As someone else said จอหน would be said as 2 syllables: jɔɔ-hǒn

Yes, that is why I feel that the garan is helpful in both the Thai spelling of the name John จอห์น and my suggested spelling of Paul.

And regardless of the debate about using a garan, I'm not sure why you'd want to spell Paul as ผอล์ with a ผ instead of a พ.

ผอล์ would have to be said with a rising tone because of the initial high-class consonant.

You are correct. This was another bone headed mispelling on my part. I meant to type พอล์ not ผอล์. Sorry.

Strongly agree with Meadish here. I'd recommend following Yoot's suggestion and ignoring the rest, even if they are well-meaning.

Just as I can spell Robert 'Rohbbeart' or Harry 'Hairriey', if I so please, it wouldn't make much sense to do. Thai has established conventional spellings for common foreign names, and while of course one doesn't have to follow the convention, there's not much sense in advising people not to.

Since Yoot is a native speaker and you Rikker are as close as we get to one in the foreign community here on Thaivisa I would sound pretty foolish to disagree with you. Still, regardless of the established conventional spelling of foreign names in Thai I believe the convention can be rather flawed. The purpose, I believe, should be to duplicate the original sound of the person's name as best as possible regardless of spelling. Your example of you or I spelling Robert as 'Rohbbeart' or Harry as 'Hairriey' does not really apply. We are native English speakers and know how Robert and Harry are supposed to be spelled and pronounced. The ambiguity comes in when English names are rendered in Thai script. Hence, which is the more correct spelling of Richard, ริชาร์ด or ริเชิด? There may be a conventional Thai way of spelling this name, I don't know, but for most North Americans I think ริเชิด sounds closer to how we pronounce it. Someone from Scotland may disagree however. For this reason I think the person to whom the name belongs should be free to spell it as they wish.

When Thais spell their names in English they can do so however they like so why not vice-versa? In the Northwestern State from which both you and I hail a Thai woman who goes by พร really wouldn't want to spell it Porn because of the not so wholesome meaning that Porn, as in pornography, has in the US. Likewise, I have a Thai-American friend in Seattle whose nickname is บอย. He spells and pronounces it Boyd in English because of the negative racial implications being called "boy" has in America.

I don't know for sure of course, but if our own Yoot is trying to render his name ยุทธ as in ยงยุทธ (if his name is of course ยุทธ) then shouldn't by convention it not be spelled Yut?

[inmysights]

Paul Jones - พอล โจนส์

FYI, don't translate the name as พาล, it means wicked person in Thai language.

It means 'bully', which I suppose is wicked. What's the term for sociopath?

[yoot]

I don't know for sure of course, but if our own Yoot is trying to render his name ยุทธ as in ยงยุทธ (if his name is of course ยุทธ) then shouldn't by convention it not be spelled Yut?

Yeah, you are right. My name is supposed to spell as Yut in English. But let me tell you one of my experiences about Thai name in English. Someone I know spell her name as Nunta(นันทา), but her teacher, a foreigner, pronounced it as นุนทา. So, I think spelling my name as Yoot should be able to avoid some misunderstand like this.

As to the name Paul, the reason why we don't put silent mark on 'l' because 'l' is pronounced in English. You don't pronounce "Paw", then why "พอล์". If you use "พอล", then most people would know how it's written and spell in English. You would get a chance people can pronounce your name correctly. But if you choose "พอล์", you would confuse them and now you would get your name pronounced as "Paw" for sure, no chance for "Paul".

[yoot]

Paul Jones - พอล โจนส์

FYI, don't translate the name as พาล, it means wicked person in Thai language.

It means 'bully', which I suppose is wicked. What's the term for sociopath?

Thanks for correction.

sociopath - พวกต่อต้านสังคม

[Rikker]

Since Yoot is a native speaker and you Rikker are as close as we get to one in the foreign community here on Thaivisa I would sound pretty foolish to disagree with you. Still, regardless of the established conventional spelling of foreign names in Thai I believe the convention can be rather flawed. The purpose, I believe, should be to duplicate the original sound of the person's name as best as possible regardless of spelling. Your example of you or I spelling Robert as 'Rohbbeart' or Harry as 'Hairriey' does not really apply. We are native English speakers and know how Robert and Harry are supposed to be spelled and pronounced. The ambiguity comes in when English names are rendered in Thai script. Hence, which is the more correct spelling of Richard, ริชาร์ด or ริเชิด? There may be a conventional Thai way of spelling this name, I don't know, but for most North Americans I think ริเชิด sounds closer to how we pronounce it. Someone from Scotland may disagree however. For this reason I think the person to whom the name belongs should be free to spell it as they wish.

When Thais spell their names in English they can do so however they like so why not vice-versa? In the Northwestern State from which both you and I hail a Thai woman who goes by พร really wouldn't want to spell it Porn because of the not so wholesome meaning that Porn, as in pornography, has in the US. Likewise, I have a Thai-American friend in Seattle whose nickname is บอย. He spells and pronounces it Boyd in English because of the negative racial implications being called "boy" has in America.

I don't know for sure of course, but if our own Yoot is trying to render his name ยุทธ as in ยงยุทธ (if his name is of course ยุทธ) then shouldn't by convention it not be spelled Yut?

You raise good points -- all the ones I would expect you to raise. I'm glad my name isn't one of those common names like Richard or Robert, because I wouldn't want to have to get used to being called Ree-chard or Row-bert.

The problem with the point about Thais being able to spell their names however they want in English is exactly this issue of convention. Since there are few well-known Thais in the global community, there aren't really any conventional English spellings for Thai names. So it is not surprising that the way Thais spell their names in English tends to be very idiosyncratic. And again, I'm not arguing that those who strongly feels otherwise must follow the convention. Just that it makes sense to follow convention when there is no strong reason not to, and advising people with little to no knowledge of the language how to spell their names in Thai seems like a classic scenario for when following convention makes good sense.

You mention the ambiguity created by rendering English names into Thai script. But that's the reason conventional spellings arise -- to create consistency. Don't forget that many common Western names are cross-cultural, too. Different languages that share the Latin script often pronounce names with the same spelling quite differently. So again it makes some sense that the Thai convention is usually to use a strict rendering of the name's spelling in Thai script (o = โ, a = า, etc), even if the pronunciation isn't exactly right. Because of these spelling conventions, most every Thai would recognize ริชาร์ด โรเบิร์ต แฮร์รี่ พอล and dozens (if not hundreds) of others as common Western names because they've seen those spellings hundreds or thousands of times, in books, the news, movie credits, you name it. So it seems to me that really it's the flouting of these conventions that has the greater potential to create ambiguity or confusion.

But ultimately I do respect the individual's right to spell his name in Thai as he pleases.

[Groongthep]

Yeah, you are right. My name is supposed to spell as Yut in English. But let me tell you one of my experiences about Thai name in English. Someone I know spell her name as Nunta(นันทา), but her teacher, a foreigner, pronounced it as นุนทา. So, I think spelling my name as Yoot should be able to avoid some misunderstand like this.

For the very same reason I used my second choice of spelling for my forum name "Groongthep" when Grungthep was unavailable. I figured most people would recognise the oo as similar enough to sara ุ to accept that I was referring to กรุงเทพฯ. Boy was I wrong; and let's not even bring up the g vs k for the ก ไก่ issue.

As to the name Paul, the reason why we don't put silent mark on 'l' because 'l' is pronounced in English. You don't pronounce "Paw", then why "พอล์". If you use "พอล", then most people would know how it's written and spell in English. You would get a chance people can pronounce your name correctly. But if you choose "พอล์", you would confuse them and now you would get your name pronounced as "Paw" for sure, no chance for "Paul".

This is a good point which makes sense. The only problem is that the only Thais that I have met who can produce a reasonable L sound at the end of a word are those who 1.) Attended an International School in Thailand 2.) Grew up or studied outside Thailand or 3.) Had an English speaking parent. Everyone else, who represent the vast majority of the overall Thai population cannot reproduce an L at the end of a word so without the garan you're going to get an N sound 95% of the time anyway.

The problem with the point about Thais being able to spell their names however they want in English is exactly this issue of convention.....the ambiguity created by rendering English names into Thai script. But that's the reason conventional spellings arise -- to create consistency......So it seems to me that really it's the flouting of these conventions that has the greater potential to create ambiguity or confusion.

OK, I'm convinced that you are right on this point. I only wish that those responsible for coming up with the original conventional spellings would have paid a bit more attention to detail. My given name has a V in the middle of it. I would have prefered that the conventional Thai spelling used an ฟ instead of a ว because I think it would sound closer to the way I say it. Things could be worse though, in the Philippines they change the V sound to a B which really makes it sound strange.

Thanks to everyone for considering my thoughts and replying in such an even handed way.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Groongthep

[Rikker]

Heheh, I know how you feel. Even though they're not my name, odd-sounding spellings like ดาวิด or อดัม still bug me.

Note that I intentionally use the word "convention" instead of "standard" since there are still a lot of inconsistencies. Look at how 7-Eleven officially spells its name: เซเว่น อีเลฟเว่น. They managed to make two words that rhyme in English not rhyme in Thai. The ฟ+ว combination is particularly strange, as neither ฟ nor ว is the same as 'v', but putting them both together seems more wrong than either one by itself. And on top of that, the name Steven is often written สตีเฟน, so in fact there are three ways that 'v' is rendered in Thai! Bizarre indeed.

[niklota]

Hi,

I am currently in Thailiand and I got my surname done in thai script in Henna.

I want to get it permanent cause it looks amazing.

I need to know if my surname was done correctly.

My surname is Lotter.

Please help urgently.

[coma]

there is only 1 way you can spell it. พอล โจนส์

[coma]

Hi,

I am currently in Thailiand and I got my surname done in thai script in Henna.

I want to get it permanent cause it looks amazing.

I need to know if my surname was done correctly.

My surname is Lotter.

Please help urgently.

Lotter would translate to : ลทเตอร์