Thai Defense Minister Clarifies Crackdown Of Red-Shirt Rally

[mufcsamui]

"He said the government considered applying the extra measures deemed most appropriate at the time, and instructed the authorities to follow such laws strictly to avoid unnecessary losses.For example, security authorities were instructed to exercise coordination and negotiations before using force".

By extension, any losses that happened because the authorities followed the laws strictly under the extra measures granted them were necessary then. Those losses include, Journalists, Medics, innocent bystanders, red shirt supporters, presumably red shirts carrying/using arms and maybe some of the "black shirts" though I haven't seen any evidence of dead blackshirts. That still leaves a lot of innocent people, surely not everyone of the above list of people killed were carrying arms?

( I deliberately have not included any losses from the security forces as nobody has accused them of shooting their own people. Unfortunately one Security official was killedand several others injured in a friendly fire incident on 28th April )

They were unnecessary losses. Unfortunately unavoidable.

100% avoidable

[rixalex]

No, no more than you do I suspect. I have read eyewitness testimonies which imply that Soldiers were involved in shooting from the skytrain track above. I aware of Gen.Anupongs denial of any troops being on the skytrain tracks. I am also aware that when shown photographs and videos of the troops on the tracks (thus ruling out Gen Anupongs claim) the Deputy PM (at the time) Mr.Suthep stated that that they were taken on the day after rally ended as troops could not enter that part of town on May 19th. This was also shown to be a false statement. We shall just have to wait and see what becomes of the Police CSI investigation of the Skytrain tracks.

If it is the pictures i am thinking of, there is nothing conclusive about the identity of the people on the skytrain tracks. They look like they might be soldiers, but then who doesn't wearing a helmet, dark clothes, and holding a rifle?

[Pi Sek]

the 22nd April incident mentioned in the gargantuan attempt at whitewash above, your perspective is not quite right, it was said that the grenades were fired from lumphini park but the resultant investigation by forensics proves they were fired from chulalongkorn Hospital, which then resulted in the reds entering the hospital as they were sure government forces were stationed there, it would appear that these grenades were fired by the security forces as at this point the reds had not entered the hospital as confirmed by the hospital themselves.

Dr. Porntip (Director of the Central Institute of Forensic Science) stated that one of the grenades might have come from Chula hospital...

One grenade fired from an M79 launcher, which fell on the roof of the Sala Daeng skytrain station, was believed to have come from a spot near the King Rama VI monument, which was close to the rally venue of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship.

Khunying Porntip said a second grenade that landed near a Bank of Ayudhya branch, might have been fired from the 7th or 8th floor of the hospital's Phor Por Ror building.

Khunying Porntip, who inspected both floors, said traces of nitrate were found but she had not been able to identify whether this was explosives or fertiliser. Her team also found traces of gunpowder in a woman's lavatory on the 8th floor.

To which Dr. Adisorn, hospital director, said:

The hospital usually uses the 7th and 8th floors for outpatients. Nobody stays there overnight. Their balconies were also too narrow for use to fire grenades, he said.

"The hospital is ready for inspection," he said. "But I personally believe it [Dr. Porntip's assumption] is impossible."

To which we saw some backtracking:

"I only said there's a possibility the grenades were fired from a certain floor of the building or nearby high-rise buildings," Khunying Porntip said. "Dr Adisorn should not jump to conclusions if he didn't listen directly to the speaker."

DSI chief Tharit Pengdit said Khunying Porntip was only offering a "technical opinion". The DSI had still not come to a conclusion on the case and it needed to check all the evidence, he said.

[rixalex]

Here the only good red is a dead red.

The only people who ever had an interest in seeing reds get killed were those running that movement, who were keen to be seen the victim under suppression by the nasty ruthless authorities.

Take a trip around the countryside, visit a few poor villages, or the poor areas of Bangkok, take a day out from your airconned condos, see how most of the Thais live.

You can see how Thais live until you are blue in the face, won't make you understand why the red movement offers a solution to their problems. It does not.

[hanuman1]

Here the only good red is a dead red.

The only people who ever had an interest in seeing reds get killed were those running that movement, who were keen to be seen the victim under suppression by the nasty ruthless authorities.

Take a trip around the countryside, visit a few poor villages, or the poor areas of Bangkok, take a day out from your airconned condos, see how most of the Thais live.

You can see how Thais live until you are blue in the face, won't make you understand why the red movement offers a solution to their problems. It does not.

Your beef is with the red leaders and those idiots who want to use violence. Fair enough. They are NOT the 'Red Movement'. They are the 'leadership' and the 'militants'.

The people who make up the numbers, those who live in the poor villages. They ARE the 'Red Movement'. They wear red, they go to rallies and then they go home. Without them, you've got maybe a couple of hundred leaders and militants. That's it.

Your sentence:

"You can see how Thais live until you are blue in the face, won't make you understand why the red movement offers a solution to their problems."

does not therefore make sense.

Edited October 22, 2010 by hanuman1

[SergeiY]

...

DSI chief Tharit Pengdit said Khunying Porntip was only offering a "technical opinion". The DSI had still not come to a conclusion on the case and it needed to check all the evidence, he said.

But according to your previous post you knew it all better and have already identified all culprits and those responsible.

[chantorn]

The defense minister also reported that the government has already compensated each of the 25 deaths and 864 injured from the clash that took place on April 10. - TAN

The victims & their family HAS been compensated.

So they have taken the money, AND SHOULD SHUT UP; else return the tax payer money.

[chantorn]

the 22nd April incident mentioned in the gargantuan attempt at whitewash above, your perspective is not quite right, it was said that the grenades were fired from lumphini park but the resultant investigation by forensics proves they were fired from chulalongkorn Hospital, which then resulted in the reds entering the hospital as they were sure government forces were stationed there, it would appear that these grenades were fired by the security forces as at this point the reds had not entered the hospital as confirmed by the hospital themselves.

Dr. Porntip (Director of the Central Institute of Forensic Science) stated that one of the grenades might have come from Chula hospital...

One grenade fired from an M79 launcher, which fell on the roof of the Sala Daeng skytrain station, was believed to have come from a spot near the King Rama VI monument, which was close to the rally venue of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship.

Khunying Porntip said a second grenade that landed near a Bank of Ayudhya branch, might have been fired from the 7th or 8th floor of the hospital's Phor Por Ror building.

Khunying Porntip, who inspected both floors, said traces of nitrate were found but she had not been able to identify whether this was explosives or fertiliser. Her team also found traces of gunpowder in a woman's lavatory on the 8th floor.

To which Dr. Adisorn, hospital director, said:

The hospital usually uses the 7th and 8th floors for outpatients. Nobody stays there overnight. Their balconies were also too narrow for use to fire grenades, he said.

"The hospital is ready for inspection," he said. "But I personally believe it [Dr. Porntip's assumption] is impossible."

To which we saw some backtracking:

"I only said there's a possibility the grenades were fired from a certain floor of the building or nearby high-rise buildings," Khunying Porntip said. "Dr Adisorn should not jump to conclusions if he didn't listen directly to the speaker."

DSI chief Tharit Pengdit said Khunying Porntip was only offering a "technical opinion". The DSI had still not come to a conclusion on the case and it needed to check all the evidence, he said.

Rainbow hair(ier).

[rixalex]

Your beef is with the red leaders and those idiots who want to use violence. Fair enough. They are NOT the 'Red Movement'. They are the 'leadership' and the 'militants'.

Yes, those are the people my beef with is, not with the thousands of followers... but sadly the direction of the movement, the demands the movement makes, the strategies the movement employs, the goals the movements sets to achieve...etc... all this stuff, is not determined by the followers, and never will be. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

[hanuman1]

Your beef is with the red leaders and those idiots who want to use violence. Fair enough. They are NOT the 'Red Movement'. They are the 'leadership' and the 'militants'.

Yes, those are the people my beef with is, not with the thousands of followers... but sadly the direction of the movement, the demands the movement makes, the strategies the movement employs, the goals the movements sets to achieve...etc... all this stuff, is not determined by the followers, and never will be. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

This is a question of semantics. To you, the 'movement' seems to be the leaders. To me, it's the majority of members - the grassroots.

I'm afraid we'll first need to agree on a definition of the 'Red Movement' before we can start throwing our prejudiced opinions at each other with any veneer of justification.

[Buchholz]

You can see how Thais live until you are blue in the face, won't make you understand why the red movement offers a solution to their problems. It does not.

Your beef is with the red leaders and those idiots who want to use violence. Fair enough. They are NOT the 'Red Movement'. They are the 'leadership' and the 'militants'.

The people who make up the numbers, those who live in the poor villages. They ARE the 'Red Movement'. They wear red, they go to rallies and then they go home. Without them, you've got maybe a couple of hundred leaders and militants. That's it.

You can sing and dance around it, but the Reds ARE Thaksin, the Reds ARE the Red Leaders. If the Red membership don't like that, then DUMP them.

Nothing has changed in the last 3 weeks from:

I think the stumbling block is that a lot of the posters cannot seem to separate the average poor upcountry person from the red shirts and PTP.

To overcome that stumbling block requires the non-violent Red supporters to remove themselves from the Red leadership and PTP. Until that occurs, the bond that labels them together as one will remain inextricable. I think nothing short of scrapping the Red Shirt movement and starting afresh without those Red leaders and PTP will achieve that.

It can be done as was occurred with the multi-colored shirts removing themselves from the leadership of the Yellows, when there was a differing of opinions with how that movement should move on.

As long as the Thaksin/Red Shirt/PTP connections remain, the labeling is rather justified. When Red Shirts continue to hold Thaksin aloft and the PTP calls him their "policy maker", how can it not be justified? If they wish to divorce themselves from those labels, they need to divorce themselves from the Red leaders and Thaksin.

I find very few posts that don't support the labor class and their legitimate problems. What I see more commonly is suggestions that they find another avenue with which to pursue relief from their admittedly heavy burden. That change will necessarily have to come from them, but for now, too many seem to continue to pursue Thaksin and the Red leaders as their messiah, which is unfortunate, because I don't see them accomplishing their goals while wearing that yoke. It's not going to be an easy task for them, but their worthwhile cause will hopefully be achieved once they strip themselves of those radicals. As for the anti-monarchy claims, I have no doubt that the majority of Reds don't share those views. However, until the Reds come out and completely disown the likes of Giles and Jakrapob, that label, too, will remain. The Reds need to be clear and forthright and loudly proclaim that that aspect of their movement doesn't represent them. Until now, that's not occurred.

[rixalex]

To overcome that stumbling block requires the non-violent Red supporters to remove themselves from the Red leadership and PTP. Until that occurs, the bond that labels them together as one will remain inextricable. I think nothing short of scrapping the Red Shirt movement and starting afresh without those Red leaders and PTP will achieve that.

It can be done as was occurred with the multi-colored shirts removing themselves from the leadership of the Yellows, when there was a differing of opinions with how that movement should move on.

As long as the Thaksin/Red Shirt/PTP connections remain, the labeling is rather justified. When Red Shirts continue to hold Thaksin aloft and the PTP calls him their "policy maker", how can it not be justified? If they wish to divorce themselves from those labels, they need to divorce themselves from the Red leaders and Thaksin.

I find very few posts that don't support the labor class and their legitimate problems. What I see more commonly is suggestions that they find another avenue with which to pursue relief from their admittedly heavy burden. That change will necessarily have to come from them, but for now, too many seem to continue to pursue Thaksin and the Red leaders as their messiah, which is unfortunate, because I don't see them accomplishing their goals while wearing that yoke. It's not going to be an easy task for them, but their worthwhile cause will hopefully be achieved once they strip themselves of those radicals. As for the anti-monarchy claims, I have no doubt that the majority of Reds don't share those views. However, until the Reds come out and completely disown the likes of Giles and Jakrapob, that label, too, will remain. The Reds need to be clear and forthright and loudly proclaim that that aspect of their movement doesn't represent them. Until now, that's not occurred.

Says it all perfectly. The red sympathisers had no answer to the points raised in the above three weeks ago, and nothing will have changed.

[rubl]

Removed, something wrong, wait for update

Edited October 22, 2010 by rubl

[Pi Sek]

...

DSI chief Tharit Pengdit said Khunying Porntip was only offering a "technical opinion". The DSI had still not come to a conclusion on the case and it needed to check all the evidence, he said.

But according to your previous post you knew it all better and have already identified all culprits and those responsible.

Really? Where?

[Pi Sek]

Your beef is with the red leaders and those idiots who want to use violence. Fair enough. They are NOT the 'Red Movement'. They are the 'leadership' and the 'militants'.

Yes, those are the people my beef with is, not with the thousands of followers... but sadly the direction of the movement, the demands the movement makes, the strategies the movement employs, the goals the movements sets to achieve...etc... all this stuff, is not determined by the followers, and never will be. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

This is a question of semantics. To you, the 'movement' seems to be the leaders. To me, it's the majority of members - the grassroots.

I'm afraid we'll first need to agree on a definition of the 'Red Movement' before we can start throwing our prejudiced opinions at each other with any veneer of justification.

Another intelligent post from hanuman1, who is in my honest opinion both intelligent and a red shirt sympathiser. They do exist... some evil like Ji Ungpakorn, some very astute like our friend here. One symbolises the struggle to tackle the monarchy, one symbolises the struggle for equality in society.

I think we all agree that the Red Shirt leaders are proper wa... well, I don't want a ban, but I'm sure you get my point.

I think we all agree that the interests of the Red Shirt rank-and-file are completely different to those of their 'leaders'.

hanuman1, I think the main difference between your understanding of "the movement" and rubl's (another clearly clever and reasonable person) is your interpretations of why they continue to follow their leaders whether the protesters agree with the leaders or not.

I think I've said before on many an occasion that there are many more than 2 groups (i.e. reds & yellows) here - there's also the red leaders, the yellow leaders, army, govt, PTP, etc.

[rubl]

the 22nd April incident mentioned in the gargantuan attempt at whitewash above, your perspective is not quite right, it was said that the grenades were fired from lumphini park but the resultant investigation by forensics proves they were fired from chulalongkorn Hospital, which then resulted in the reds entering the hospital as they were sure government forces were stationed there, it would appear that these grenades were fired by the security forces as at this point the reds had not entered the hospital as confirmed by the hospital themselves.

Whitewash. You assume 'might be' = 'proven'. What is proven is that of the 60+ grenade attacks during March - May a few were executed by UDD / red-shirts. Most attacks still under investigations. Only non-reds killed, maimed, injured by grenade attacks.

You really have to be a member of the 'government conspiracy theory group' to believe the government did this.

(PS Khunying MD Pornthip reasoned that all CCTVs inside King Bhumibol Building inside the hospital were damaged, and therefore no traces of the unrest perpetrators could be tracked. Who finds me clips of any color shirts smashing CCTV cameras?)

(edit: Note to self: USE the f.. dictionary )

Edited October 22, 2010 by rubl

[Buchholz]

Raiding the Chulalongkorn Hospital was one of the biggest debacles in Red history and cost them tons of support amongst the Reds themselves. To see it attempted to be justified nearly six months later is an affront to sensibility that only the most strident of Reds would attempt.

One of the reasons for the across the board condemnation of it was dislodging His Holiness Somdet Phra Nyanasamvara, the Supreme Patriarch of the whole Buddhist faith in Thailand. To the millions of Buddhists in this country, the wanton disregard that could easily jeopardize the health of 96 year-old His Holiness in such a reckless manner was just too dam_n much:

BANGKOK: -- Chulalongkorn Hospital yesterday transferred the Supreme Patriarch to Siriraj Hospital and now has only its emergency unit still in service. Chulalongkorn Hospital director Dr Adisorn Patradul said all inpatients have already been transferred to other hospitals. And the emergency unit would now provide service only from morning until 4pm each day. "We haven't closed down the hospital. It is still open but we have to adjust according to the situation for the safety of the patients and our staff," Adisorn said.

On Thursday night, about 200 red shirts marched from the rally site at Rajprasong to the hospital, which is located nearby, claiming they had to search the building because military officers were hiding inside. However, a subsequent highly controversial search found no troops in the building.

HRH Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn visited the Supreme Patriarch at Chulalongkorn Hospital yesterday afternoon. Adisorn said the Princess requested the Supreme Patriarch be transferred to Siriraj Hospital.

The Nation - May 2, 2010

Edited October 22, 2010 by Buchholz

[Ricardo]

It's hard to be peaceful, to people who roll burning-tyres towards you, or use grenades & guns against you. But, to give them credit, the authorities tried to remain calm & peaceful, for some two months of 'peaceful' protest.

[whybother]

I can't actually see how 3 grenades could be fired from the hospital OVER a higher building and down onto the BTS roof landing in a straight line perpendicular (or moving across) from the direction that they were supposedly fired.

On the other hand, if they were fired from the statue area next to Lumpini Park, it is a direct line along Silom and the BTS station, and all that would need to happen is for a slight change in elevation at the firing point for them to fall in a straight line along the BTS station roof.

[SergeiY]

...

DSI chief Tharit Pengdit said Khunying Porntip was only offering a "technical opinion". The DSI had still not come to a conclusion on the case and it needed to check all the evidence, he said.

But according to your previous post you knew it all better and have already identified all culprits and those responsible.

Really? Where?

is that going now in circles?

read you own words here:

... Below is a collection of some events that were clear (for me, anyway) cases of the UDD's implicit guilt in civilian deaths:

...

22 April

Tensions again came to a head when there were M79 grenade attacks seemingly from Lumpini Park where some Red Shirt partisans were been “stationed”. The grenades were fired directly at the Multi-coloured Shirt protesters, at Saladaeng skytrain station and at Bangkok Bank HQ on Silom Road. A Res Shirt retired soldier and four others were arrested.

...

But better look at the OP, even the defense minister had found nobody so far he could put all the blame on and speaks of ongoing investigations.

[whybother]

quote name='SergeiY' timestamp='1287740979' post='3972547']

quote name='Pi Sek' timestamp='1287740328' post='3972526']

...

DSI chief Tharit Pengdit said Khunying Porntip was only offering a "technical opinion". The DSI had still not come to a conclusion on the case and it needed to check all the evidence, he said.

/quote]

But according to your previous post you knew it all better and have already identified all culprits and those responsible.

/quote]

Really? Where?

is that going now in circles?

read you own words here:

... Below is a collection of some events that were clear (for me, anyway) cases of the UDD's implicit guilt in civilian deaths:

...

22 April

Tensions again came to a head when there were M79 grenade attacks seemingly from Lumpini Park where some Red Shirt partisans were been "stationed". The grenades were fired directly at the Multi-coloured Shirt protesters, at Saladaeng skytrain station and at Bangkok Bank HQ on Silom Road. A Res Shirt retired soldier and four others were arrested.

...

But better look at the OP, even the defense minister had found nobody so far he could put all the blame on and speaks of ongoing investigations.

Weren't they two different incidents?

One was where the coloured shirts were attacked in front of the Dusit Thani, and the other was an attack an Sala Daeng BTS where an innocent bystander was killed while waiting for a train.

Edited October 22, 2010 by whybother

[rubl]

I saw this guy in Home Pro earlier buying up all the whitewash

As an ex-police officer I had expected some more sympathy from you:

8 May

Two police officers were killed and more police and civilians injured not far from the rally site by drive-by shootings and M79 grenade attacks.

[phiphidon]

I fully expect that the public will be told why deaths were necessary.

Still no word after 5 months.

And I expect we will see that the UDD are NO WAY NEAR as innocent as you proport and that they were responsible for the larger part of the civilian deaths.

I'm not purporting that all of the red shirts were innocent. Did you not read my post before replying?

The 28th April friendly fire incident?

Google it, there are plenty of references. A group of troops carrying guns on motorcycles approached an Army Barricade where they were shot at by the Army. There is video footage of the incident broadcast by Spring News on You Tube. It is not the incident you are referring to below.

This policy of non-officials conducting searches on privatepeople has been condemned by both the National Human Rights Commission and the government, who stated that anyone operating further checkpoints would be arrested immediately and the Red Shirts should stay within the boundsof their protest site. Arrests of 14 Red Shirt protesters followed when they were caught operating a checkpoint in Pathum Thani, just north of Bangkok.

Kwanchai Praiphana led some 2,000 Red Shirts to rally in PathumThani in support of their arrested comrades. This was countered by the Queen's Special Air Force unit, who were stationed at Don Muang in northern Bangkok, who told the protesters to return to their rally site or risk beingdispersed forcefully. Violence ensued when the protesters started firing on the army in what CNN reported as a "major gun battle". One soldier was killed by a high-velocity rifle shot to the head; it was confirmedby autopsy that this was not a case of friendly fire and many protesters were arrested. Initial reports claimed Kwanchai was arrested, but then it transpired that he had fled after a telephone warningfrom Peua Thai Party chairman Police Captain Chalerm Yoobamrung (himself with various ties to the Bangkok mafia, including two sons who were acquitted on murder charges after key witnesses refused to testify), stopping fora photo opportunity at McDonald's on the way. Chalerm denied ever calling Kwanchai.

Please, please, please - get your head out the sand and recognise this protest was in no way "peaceful" towards journalists,medics, civilians, etc... you can go on all you like about "not all red shirts were armed" - but, as long as they were intentionally obscuring visibility (burned tyres, firecrackers, etc) and harbouring an armedelement shooting at soldiers (!), you cannot possibly be serious in criticising the army's actions. Below is a collection of some events that were clear (for me, anyway) cases of the UDD's implicit guilt in civilian deaths:

10 April

An M79 grenade was fired from an elevated position at the tent of the army colonel directing the dispersal, killing him and another soldier, and then several black-shirted masked men appeared within the protests armed with M16 assault weapons and M79 grenades launchers. 20 civilians and 5 soldiers died and there were over 800 injuries – although autopsy reports show many of the 25 were killed by high-velocity sniper rifle headshots and other protesters were shot from behind, so many of the deaths were seemingly not caused by the army. Reports and investigations later showed that a third element, widely believed to be these Black Shirt warriors, infiltrated the Red Shirts and caused major bloodshed on both sides; the Red Shirt leaders insist that all deaths were caused by the army.

No Army Sniper Teams? That's the implication I get from your comment "although autopsy reports show many of the 25 were killed by high-velocity sniper rifle headshots and other protesters were shot from behind, so many of the deaths were seemingly not caused by the army".

22 April

Tensions again came to a head when there were M79 grenade attacks seemingly from Lumpini Park where some Red Shirt partisans were been "stationed". The grenades were fired directly at the Multi-coloured Shirt protesters, at Saladaeng skytrain station and at Bangkok Bank HQ on Silom Road. A Res Shirt retired soldier and four others were arrested.

There is still some dispute about where the M79 grenades were fired from.(apart from of course the Deputy P.M who stated that it came from behind the Rama 6 monument)

"when reporters asked where they were shot from, the Bangkok Governor stated that they were shot from a tall place"

ASTV Manager (not known for its Pro-Red stance) quotes a witness as stating that the M79 was fired from the fifth floor of Chulalongkorn Hospital which is not wherethe red shirts are located - the red shirts are on the other side of the road.

Meanwhile DSI DG Tharit Pendgit having interrogated one Mr. Surachai determines that he (Mr Surachai) has confessed to being one of the "men in black" and wasresponsible for 8 seperate grenade/shooting incidents. Busy Man.

One of the incidents being the above grenade attacks. He does not say where he fired the grenades from, in fact he denies being involved with 7 of the 8 incidents(see Dusit Hotel attack)

29 April

A group of armed Red Shirt protesters led by Payap Panket (one of the banned Thai Rak Thai party executives) forcefully entered Chulalongkorn Hospitalnear to the Rajprasong rally site, claiming that the hospital was not neutral and were housing soldiers in preparation for a violent dispersal of the protest. Patients and hospital staff were evacuated immediately after intimidationby the protesters and the hospital was closed down by its directors. Four patients died from the evacuation.

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

8 May

Two police officers were killed and more police and civilians injured not far from the rally site by drive-by shootings and M79 grenade attacks.

See Mr.Supachai (according to DSI)

15th May

Local news showed gun battles between Red Shirtsand soldiers and a group of Red Shirts hijacking a civilian aid truck (suspecting it was military), with one of the workers being mobbed and shot at pointblank range.

Can't comment on this as I can't find any references

16th May

The night saw RPG attacks on the Dusit Thani hotel where foreign journalists were staying; the staff and guests took shelter in the basement until the army clearedthe area of the attackers.

The one incident that Mr.Supachai admits to. Apparently he fired one RPG at the hotel as he was certain that the shot that killed Sae-Daeng was fired from the hotel?

18th May

Black Shirt snipers were caught on camera for the first time, supporting the CRES' claims that it was not the army's snipers who were shooting civilians randomly.

Ah, so there are Army Snipers.

18th May

The CRES also arrested a Black Shirt guard, Pichet Sukjiddathong (aka Phumkitti), who was General Seh Daeng's closest aide and right-handman. He was accused of terrorism; during interrogation, he stated that Natthawut was the primarily person responsible for ordering violence.

19th May

At the new protest stages at Klong Toey and Bon Kai, which hadseen the most violence, the Red Shirt leaders were playing marching music and telling the protesters to stay where they were and get ready to fight as there was nowhere to run to anymore. Very aggressive Black Shirts were in abundance, not allowing reporters to take any photography. At Din Daeng intersection, protesters had set several buildings on fire; a French journalist had his camera destroyed after he captured images of Red Shirts committingarson.

19th May

The Din Daeng protest stage announced their independence from the rest of the rally and announced they would 'hunt down members of thepress' before torching a police kiosk.

19th May

CentralWorld, Asia's second-largest shopping centre burnt down in the early evening as firefighters were being shot at by the Red Shirts.

[SergeiY]

Weren't they two different incidents?

One was where the coloured shirts were attacked in front of the Dusit Thani, and the other was an attack an Sala Daeng BTS where an innocent bystander was killed while waiting for a train.

No, just go the entries back where the quotes come from and you will see it is a run in circles.

[jackr]

And I look forward to the time when the Red Shirt Leaders and Supporters of the Red Shirt violence, looting, arson

and killing of innocents admit there crimes and their lack of concern for their fellow countrymen, be they men

women, government, civilians, Red Shirts, Yellow Shirts, Multi Colored Shirts. How they can sleep at night with a

clear conscience in beyond me.

Because one requires brains, thoughtfulness, compassion to experience anything otherwise. I bet 99% of Reds profess to be Buddhist.

[hanuman1]

To overcome that stumbling block requires the non-violent Red supporters to remove themselves from the Red leadership and PTP. Until that occurs, the bond that labels them together as one will remain inextricable. I think nothing short of scrapping the Red Shirt movement and starting afresh without those Red leaders and PTP will achieve that.

It can be done as was occurred with the multi-colored shirts removing themselves from the leadership of the Yellows, when there was a differing of opinions with how that movement should move on.

As long as the Thaksin/Red Shirt/PTP connections remain, the labeling is rather justified. When Red Shirts continue to hold Thaksin aloft and the PTP calls him their "policy maker", how can it not be justified? If they wish to divorce themselves from those labels, they need to divorce themselves from the Red leaders and Thaksin.

I find very few posts that don't support the labor class and their legitimate problems. What I see more commonly is suggestions that they find another avenue with which to pursue relief from their admittedly heavy burden. That change will necessarily have to come from them, but for now, too many seem to continue to pursue Thaksin and the Red leaders as their messiah, which is unfortunate, because I don't see them accomplishing their goals while wearing that yoke. It's not going to be an easy task for them, but their worthwhile cause will hopefully be achieved once they strip themselves of those radicals. As for the anti-monarchy claims, I have no doubt that the majority of Reds don't share those views. However, until the Reds come out and completely disown the likes of Giles and Jakrapob, that label, too, will remain. The Reds need to be clear and forthright and loudly proclaim that that aspect of their movement doesn't represent them. Until now, that's not occurred.

Says it all perfectly. The red sympathisers had no answer to the points raised in the above three weeks ago, and nothing will have changed.

It's easy for an individual to say they don't want this or that leader. When it comes to an umbrella group containing several factions like the red shirts it becomes more difficult.

How do you envisage those red shirts who aren't that interested in Taksin and who abhor violence to show it? Do you think they should organize a rally and carry banners saying 'We don't like Taksin' and 'We hate violence'? Not even anti-reds do that, but people do in other countries (e.g. Spanish public rallies against ETA violence, Mexican public rallies against cartel violence etc). And who should organize such a rally for the redshirts? The same leaders most of us have already agreed are unsuitable for their roles?

There have been painfully few political leaders who ever held their own constituents' interests above their own personal ones, on any side. And now suddenly you expect some kind of messianic figure to emerge from the red shirt ranks and make it a key policy to allay your fears. Well, I wish that would happen too, but I'm surprised you think this could ever be possible in a country with a political environment like Thailand's.

And by pinning your disdain for the entire red shirt movement on the impossibility of what you demand you are very clearly, very consciously ensuring you will never have to contemplate supporting any of their demands.

Edited October 22, 2010 by hanuman1

[Buchholz]

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters’ intrusion of the compound last week.

[hanuman1]

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters’ intrusion of the compound last week.

Can we find a snippet that states that the evacuation was the cause of death in all four cases? Unfortunately, I hear people die in hospitals quite frequently.

[Buchholz]

To overcome that stumbling block requires the non-violent Red supporters to remove themselves from the Red leadership and PTP. Until that occurs, the bond that labels them together as one will remain inextricable. I think nothing short of scrapping the Red Shirt movement and starting afresh without those Red leaders and PTP will achieve that.

It can be done as was occurred with the multi-colored shirts removing themselves from the leadership of the Yellows, when there was a differing of opinions with how that movement should move on.

As long as the Thaksin/Red Shirt/PTP connections remain, the labeling is rather justified. When Red Shirts continue to hold Thaksin aloft and the PTP calls him their "policy maker", how can it not be justified? If they wish to divorce themselves from those labels, they need to divorce themselves from the Red leaders and Thaksin.

I find very few posts that don't support the labor class and their legitimate problems. What I see more commonly is suggestions that they find another avenue with which to pursue relief from their admittedly heavy burden. That change will necessarily have to come from them, but for now, too many seem to continue to pursue Thaksin and the Red leaders as their messiah, which is unfortunate, because I don't see them accomplishing their goals while wearing that yoke. It's not going to be an easy task for them, but their worthwhile cause will hopefully be achieved once they strip themselves of those radicals. As for the anti-monarchy claims, I have no doubt that the majority of Reds don't share those views. However, until the Reds come out and completely disown the likes of Giles and Jakrapob, that label, too, will remain. The Reds need to be clear and forthright and loudly proclaim that that aspect of their movement doesn't represent them. Until now, that's not occurred.

Says it all perfectly. The red sympathisers had no answer to the points raised in the above three weeks ago, and nothing will have changed.

It's easy for an individual to say they don't want this or that leader. When it comes to an umbrella group containing several factions like the red shirts it becomes more difficult.

How do you envisage those red shirts who aren't that interested in Taksin and who abhor violence to show it? Do you think they should organize a rally and carry banners saying 'We don't like Taksin' and 'We hate violence'? Not even anti-reds do that, but people do in other countries (e.g. Spanish public rallies against ETA violence, Mexican public rallies against cartel violence etc). And who should organize such a rally for the redshirts? The same leaders most of us have already agreed are unsuitable for their roles?

There have been painfully few political leaders who ever held their own constituents' interests above their own personal ones, on any side. And now suddenly you expect some kind of messianic figure to emerge from the red shirt ranks and make it a key policy to allay your fears. Well, I wish that would happen too, but I'm surprised you think this could ever be possible in a country with a political environment like Thailand's.

And by pinning your disdain for the entire red shirt movement on the impossibility of what you demand you are very clearly, very consciously ensuring you will never have to contemplate supporting any of their demands.

Several of the things that you said, apparently facetiously, are exactly some of the things they DO need to do if they ever hope to have even the slightest bit of credibility, eg. carry banners that both denounce any association with Thaksin and the anti-royals.

They do need someone new to lead. Until they do, it's Thaksin. If they are serious about forging ahead out of his shadow, it's mandatory. They and you might not like that and produce a list of excuses of why they can't, but at this point there has not even been a meager attempt to separate PTP=Thaksin=Reds.

The opposite has been occurring as it has been reinforced on a daily basis. Nearly every news headline, issue, speech, lawsuit, etc. for several weeks has all been about connecting the three.

I do agree, it ain't easy to separate and drop Thaksin, but life isn't easy and this is one of those times.

I sincerely wish them well in their endeavors to air their legitimate concerns, but they have to drop the bastard like the SOB he is first and foremost.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Buchholz

[rubl]

I fully expect that the public will be told why deaths were necessary.

Still no word after 5 months.

'why deaths are necessary' is suggesting it was on purpose, premeditated which is nonsense. The government has explained, indicated, etc. a few times that these deaths seemed to be unavoidable. I don't see how this could have been avoided after unknowns started firing almost indiscriminately on the 10th of April and lopped grenades on a colonel and staff. 60+ grenades in three months, only non-red casualties.

Your so-called counter details on various incidents also serves to obfuscate a already confusion situation. Doesn't really have much value.

For instance the quote of 'saw grenate fired from 5th fl. of Chula hospital'. Dr. Pornthip found traces on the 7/8th fl., but can't say for sure the grenades were fired from there. I was lucky on the 22nd, I walked from U Chu Liang, RamaIV to BTS Saladaeng a few hours before the attack. I saw the ugliness of the red barricade and heard them shout.