Non-theravadan Temple?

[Vendue2]

I know that Theravada Buddhism is mostly what's taught in Thailand, but I was wondering if there are any Tibetan or Mahayana or Zen (etc) temples as well. I would like to find one to stay at for a short while. It can be anywhere in Thailand, as I have 6 months to plan my travel. And I don't speak Thai. Thanks for any help.

[camerata]

I'm pretty sure there aren't any Tibetan or Zen temples in Thailand. There are probably some Chinese Pure Land temples, but I doubt you could stay there. If you really want to stay in a Mahayana temple, Japan is the place. I think some Zen temples around Kyoto do meditation courses for foreigners. Otherwise there are temple lodgings for pilgrims in various places.

I have stayed at a Shingon temple on Mount Koya in Wakayama several times. Visitors are invited to join the morning service where prayers are offered for ancestors, but there is no teaching or meditation. It costs about 3,500 baht per night, including vegetarian food. Nice experience, but expensive.

[sabaijai]

There are a few Chinese Mahayana monasteries around Thailand. The only one I've been inside myself is Wat Mangkon Kamalawat (aka Neng Noi Yee) off Charoen Krung Rd in Chinatown, Bangkok, very busy. This particular one also has Tibetan Buddhist connections. Plus the usual assortment of Confucian and Taoist shrines for good measure.

My impression is that it isn't particularly open to foreigners. Not speaking Thai (or at least Chinese) would definitely be a problem, and I'm sure that will apply to any Mahayana temple or monastery in Thailand. There are no Zen or Tibetan monasteries in Thailand.

If you're interested in staying at a Mahayana monastery, Taiwan would be a much better choice than Thailand. Or for Zen, then Japan or Korea.

For Tibetan monasteries in Asia your choices are India and Nepal.

Unlike Theravada monasteries (which almost always free, or if not then nominal in cost), most Mahayana, Zen and Tibetan monasteries charge relatively high daily or monthly fees for residence.

[cdnvic]

Unlike Theravada monasteries (which almost always free, or if not then nominal in cost), most Mahayana, Zen and Tibetan monasteries charge relatively high daily or monthly fees for residence.

You'll probably find Korean Zen monasteries much more reasonable. They also take into account whether you have previous monastic experience when setting fees as otherwise they become a magnat for new age backpackers on a budget.

cv

[Vendue2]

Thanks a lot for the help. I would love to plan a trip to these other countries and visit some different temples. A Theravadan temple will be fine for this trip. One more question though. I've been reading a lot about how Thai Buddhism is more a mixture of Theravada, Hinduism, and Animism. Can anyone reccommend any temple in Thailand that is more strictly Buddhist? (Preferably Vipassana dhura, and again, I don't speak Thai.)

[sabaijai]

Thanks a lot for the help.  I would love to plan a trip to these other countries and visit some different temples.  A Theravadan temple will be fine for this trip.  One more question though.  I've been reading a lot about how Thai Buddhism is more a mixture of Theravada, Hinduism, and Animism.  Can anyone reccommend any temple in Thailand that is more strictly Buddhist?  (Preferably Vipassana dhura, and again, I don't speak Thai.)

All of the monasteries and centres linked to the topic pinned to the top of this forum are pretty strictly Buddhist. Several offer English instruction: Wat Mahathat in Bangkok is an excellent place to start, or in Chiang Mai check Wat Ram Poeng or Wat Phra That Doi Suthep.

Links

[Mr. Farang]

Thanks a lot for the help.  I would love to plan a trip to these other countries and visit some different temples.  A Theravadan temple will be fine for this trip.  One more question though.  I've been reading a lot about how Thai Buddhism is more a mixture of Theravada, Hinduism, and Animism.  Can anyone reccommend any temple in Thailand that is more strictly Buddhist?  (Preferably Vipassana dhura, and again, I don't speak Thai.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not generally true that Thai Buddhism is a mixture of Theravada, Hinduism, and Animism. Most, if not all, senior Sangha in Thailand practice pure Theravada Buddhism. It is true, however, that the majority of Thais practice or believe in some for of animism, spirit worship, etc. However, this practice is not Thai Buddhism, it is Thai culture and tradition and yes, this culture and tradition influences the Thai Sangha.

There is a significant different between Theravada Thai Buddhism and the conditioning and believe systems of most Thai people - not dissimilar to other countries and their ideals and believe systems.

This is a complex subject and it is easy to understand, how people can confuse the day-to-day rituals and believe systems of Thai people with Thai Buddhism (Theravada Buddhism) - keeping in mind Thailand's tolerance for other schools of thought and proximity to other nations and their belief systems.

Personally speaking, I would not recommend a non-Thai speaker who does not practice Theravada Buddhism to stay overnight in Thai temples. The purpose of these temples are to practice Buddhism and make merit in the tradition of Thailand.

Edited August 22, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Nordlys]

I have stayed at a Shingon temple on Mount Koya in Wakayama several times. Visitors are invited to join the morning service where prayers are offered for ancestors, but there is no teaching or meditation. It costs about 3,500 baht per night, including vegetarian food. Nice experience, but expensive.

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Hi camerata

Is this Kongoubuji temple of Shingon sect where you stayed? My parents (Japanese but BKK resident) are going there in October (for a day trip) and I'm thinking of going with them. I found the temple website in Japanese but no information about lodging there. What's it like staying there? Can you elaborate a little more pelase. What do you do there other than the morning prayer service if there's no meditation course? Is it really recommended and how many days stay is enough in your opinion? I'd appreciate your inputs.

Edited August 30, 2005 by Nordlys

[camerata]

Hi camerata

Is this Kongoubuji temple of Shingon sect where you stayed?  My parents (Japanese but BKK resident) are going there in October (for a day trip) and I'm thinking of going with them.  I found the temple website in Japanese but no information about lodging there.  What's it like staying there?  Can you elaborate a little more pelase.  What do you do there other than the morning prayer service if there's no meditation course?  Is it really recommended and how many days stay is enough in your opinion?  I'd appreciate your inputs.

Kongobuji is the main temple complex. There are about 50 shukubo for pilgrims on the mountain but only 7-8 of them accept foreigners. There's a good overview at http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/article.1287.html. I stayed at Shojoshinin because it is right at the edge of the forest/cemetery and it doesn't look modern. But your parents might have a much greater choice and cheaper price at the Japanese-only temples. I paid 10,000 yen per night last time, including two shojin ryori vegetarian meals. You can't take any food or drink in from outside.

Basically, the temple lodgings are just like a ryokan except the delicious vegetarian meals are served in your room (at Shojoshinin, maybe not other temples) by monks. If there is a morning service, it starts at 6am and lasts about 40 minutes. It's mainly chanting by the monks and you may be invited to burn some incense and say a prayer for your ancestors.

Breakfast is at 7am. Dinner is at 6pm. There is a communal bath. The main gate is closed at 7pm but there is a small side door that can be opened all night. The monks (and apparently everyone else!) sleep at 9pm. In April and October it's freezing cold at night. You get a paraffin heater that switches off automatically after 3 hours. I slept in my clothes with a double quilt on top.

I think you need two days to see everything without rushing. The walk up through the forest to the Okuonin takes about 25 minutes and is very pleasant. There you can pay your respects or pray to Kukai (Kobo Daishi) who is thought to be in deep meditation waiting for Maitreya to arrive.

The other main complexes are in the village. That's Kongobuji, which has a very nice rock garden, and Dai Garan. There's also the niomon about 10 minutes away at the edge of the mountain. And don't miss the Reihokan museum, especially in Autumn and Spring when all the treasures are on show.

Personally, I like the atmosphere of the mountain, the forest and the temple, with all the pilgrims heading up towards Kukai's tomb. It makes a nice change from the frenetic consumerism of Bangkok. But there are more beautiful temples and images to see around Kyoto and Nara.

Oh, by the way, you aren't allowed to stay at the temples if you are a right-wing nationalist or member of the yakuza.

[Nordlys]

Thank you so much for all that inputs.

I found more websites on Mt. Kouya guide and also a Shukubo website where I can make on-line reservations. But now I know it's a very touristic place and I find Yen9,500 ~ 20,000 per night stay at shukubo to be a bit outrageous, I'm having a second thought about staying there but maybe it's not such a bad idea at all if I can take it to be a purely sight seeing trip. I was expecting something of a meditation course or some study sessions but seems like there's absolutely nothing to do there for a lay person other than hiking and sight seeing. There is a sutra transcription course (of course in kanji) but I'm not a great calligrapher so I think I'll pass on that. I didn't know Kukai's tomb is there, seeing that alone must be worth visiting Kouyasan.

How crowded was the shukubo and the mountain when you stayed in October? It's not easy avoiding crowd in Japan even in the mountains and yes like you said Kyoto can be very nice especially in October when the autumn leaves are changing colors but way overcrowded with tourists (experienced the same at famous Toshouguu shrine in Nikko also in the mountain) and if that's what I'm going to see in Mt.Kouya I think I'll just pass. And for that reason I much prefer walking Kamakura (which is in close proximity of Tokyo that you can go visit there on a day trip) than Kyoto. Did you see autumn leaves in the mountain when you went there in October? BTW you must have liked the experience so much that you have stayed there more than once.

Also, is it OK to bring a backpack, photographic equipments and a sleeping bag (if it's that freezing in Oct like you said it is) to shukubo? Any locker there?

Oh, by the way, you aren't allowed to stay at the temples if you are a right-wing nationalist or member of the yakuza. 

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None of which we are so we should be welcomed.

Can't think of why right-wingers and yakuzas want to go there anyway, believe they tend to be shintoist if they have any faith.

Edited August 31, 2005 by Nordlys

[camerata]

I was expecting something of a meditation course or some study sessions but seems like there's absolutely nothing to do there for a lay person other than hiking and sight seeing.  There is a sutra transcription course (of course in kanji) but I'm not a great calligrapher so I think I'll pass on that.

Perhaps with esoteric Buddhism there isn't much that can be taught easily to beginners. Anyway, copying sutras was the traditional way of making merit in early Japan.

I didn't know Kukai's tomb is there, seeing that alone must be worth visiting Kouyasan. 

It's nothing special to look at and you can't go inside. It's just a small building and people pray at a fence outside. The main activities are in the building next to it, which I think is called the Hall of Candles, or something.

How crowded was the shukubo and the mountain when you stayed in October? 

My shukobo is always almost empty. Maybe 2 or 3 other people staying there even in cherry blossom season. The mountain isn't very crowded at all. You can walk the 25 minutes through the cemetery and see only a handful of people or you can come across tour groups of pilgrims led by someone bellowing through a megaphone. It depends on luck and the time of day. The only place that has a busy atmosphere is the Okuonin building where all the candles are. But I have never been there at the weekend.

And for that reason I much prefer walking Kamakura (which is in close proximity of Tokyo that you can go visit there on a day trip) than Kyoto.

Well, yeah, but narrow streets clogged with traffic and fumes at some times.

Did you see autumn leaves in the mountain when you went there in October?  BTW you must have liked the experience so much that you have stayed there more than once. 

I haven't been in October (I just assumed in my previous post that the weather was the same in October as April), I've been twice in April and once in mid-September. September was perfect at night. I don't recall seeing many maple trees, so I'm not sure what the momiji is like there.

Also, is it OK to bring a backpack, photographic equipments and a sleeping bag (if it's that freezing in Oct like you said it is) to shukubo?  Any locker there? 

No lockers where I was. I think you can bring anything you want. Actually, I'm sure they have extra quilts but by the time I realized how cold it would be, the monks had gone to bed. You may be able to leave valuables with the reception office. The first room they gave me looked out onto the garden and had no lock or catch of any kind on the sliding doors. I thought this would bother me, but it didn't.

BTW, you have to pay cash.

This place might not be typical of all the shukubo. I've read that in some they serve alcohol and students have rowdy parties there. There is one where the abbot speaks English and provides a video about Shingon and is willing to talk about it with visitors.

[Nordlys]

Thanks again for all that infos, camerata.

My mother has bought a guide book so I'll take a look at that and decide if it's really worth visiting taking a leave from work in October. You went there three times? And each time from Bangkok? That good eh?

Well, yeah, but narrow streets clogged with traffic and fumes at some times.

That's Kamakura?

[camerata]

You went there three times?  And each time from Bangkok?  That good eh? 

Yes, from Bangkok. I like Lord-of-the-Rings-grade forests and Koya-san is the only accessible place I know that has one, other than Kurama.

When I first went to Japan I was impressed by the cameraderie and sincerity of the pilgrims, particularly since most were over 60 years old and very active. So I got interested in pilgrimages. But these days a lot of the experience is a tour bus and a stampede to the nokyo to get your book stamped, and off again 30 minutes later.

So I've been looking for elements of the pilgrimage as it used to be: the preparation, the fasting, the long, arduous journey on foot through the forest, and a stay at a temple. I don't know if you can recreate that experience now (perhaps on Shikoku if you speak Japanese) but Koya-san at least has the temple lodgings. The closest I ever came to the "arduous journey" was the 1-hour climb up to Kami Daigo-ji near Kyoto, but the temple isn't much to look at and it has no lodgings. It's a buzz when you reach the top, though.

The one time I went to Kamakura, around 4pm I couldn't find a taxi and ended up walking for over 30 minutes to an obscure temple through narrow streets with slow-moving traffic and it really affected my lungs. Otherwise, the place is quite picturesque. I should have allowed myself more time but I was on a day-trip from Kyoto!

[Nordlys]

So I've been looking for elements of the pilgrimage as it used to be: the preparation, the fasting, the long, arduous journey on foot through the forest, and a stay at a temple. I don't know if you can recreate that experience now (perhaps on Shikoku if you speak Japanese) but Koya-san at least has the temple lodgings.

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You can still find it in Shikoku today. You probably already know well about the famous Shikoku 88 temples pilgrimage but I just read an article in Nihon Keizai Shimbun this week (Japanese wall street journal) that the number of pilgrims is on the rise these days (triple the number 5 years ago) with some 150,000 pilgrims (Ohenro as it's called in Japanese for Shikoku pilgrimage) who actually make 88 temples pilgrimage annually amongst which 3,000 of them make the 1,400km long arduous journey on their foot. Most of them are retired Japanese "salary-man" if not laid-off white-collar workers in corporate restructuring and more are expected to join when there'll be a mass retirement of Japanese baby boomers in 2007 and in the years to come. But I've seen quite a few young ones too when I was in Shikoku.

Three years ago I stayed in Matsuyama (Ehime prefec.) for 4 months during which time I was under training at one of the factories belonging to my friend whose company we were going joint-venture with in Thailand, and I've spotted Ohenro on pilgrimage in the mountain many times in the morning on my commute to the factory in the highland (where I assembled iMac built-in CD-RW drive). And like you, I was quite touched to see those pilgrims in white walking in the morning mist on the mountain road.

I've envied them for their free-spirited journey on their foot and actually gave some thought about doing it myself, but not seriously enough as it is some 1,400km walk which can take two months or more and by the time my training was over, I was eager to come back to Thailand to be with my soon-to-be-married-with Thai GF. I can understand communication is problematic if you can't speak Japanese, but people of Shikoku are quite used to hosting Henro and they know what your intention and needs are when you are in the white pilgrims outfit with a stick and white hat (but I've seen pilgrims in Gore-Tex jacket and Levi's too) and I've read a report of farang gaijin who has done 88 temples pilgrimage many years ago when I was in Japan (and as I just briefly googled there appears to be English guidebooks on Shikoku pilgrimage available), I wouldn't worry so much about the lingo being much of a problem if I were you. Better yet, I believe there are many pilgrims out there in Shikoku that when you are in the white Ohenro outfit, it's quite easy to break the ice in getting to know other Henro and creating a bond, maybe I'm too optimistic but I'd imagine it won't be too difficult for you to find a nice and friendly Japanese pilgrim whom you'd find to be helpful.

Besides, you've already made a pilgrimage to Koya-san, the very first (if not the last) stop for the serious pilgrims who follow the footsteps of Kukai the Kobou Daishi. I know it's not realistic taking two months leave from work working in Thailand and I don't know how many more years you have till your retirement but why not the Shikoku 88 temples pilgrimage for your post-retirement goal? I'd be more keen on doing that myself than taking the Caribbean cruise.

Not all of the temples are in mountains, I've seen some of the 88 temples in the city of Matsuyama and some of them only about ten minutes walk from each other. I believe you will walk most of the route on paved road (and sidewalks) in mountains and flat terrains but not so much in mountain trails, although I know at least one temple that takes some climbing to reach but no technical climbing or climbing gear required. Not every temples have shukubo for pilgrims but I've seen signs of cheap accommodations (Yen 1,000 and up) along the roads of Shikoku specifically for Ohenro to lodge. Talking of mountains, I've done a lot of driving in the mountains of Ehime and Kochi, and while I haven't bothered seeing Lord of the Rings (yet), I can rate the mountains of Shikoku to be something of a Mononoke-hime-grade (famous Hayao Miyazaki anime on early Shinto animism). Awesome deep forest in deep mountains (well most of Japan is like that actually).

Here's some guide I found in English.

Edited September 2, 2005 by Nordlys

[camerata]

Besides, you've already made a pilgrimage to Koya-san, the very first (if not the last) stop for the serious pilgrims who follow the footsteps of Kukai the Kobou Daishi.  I know it's not realistic taking two months leave from work working in Thailand and I don't know how many more years you have till your retirement but why not the Shikoku 88 temples pilgrimage for your post-retirement goal?  I'd be more keen on doing that myself than taking the Caribbean cruise.   

At the rate my body is falling apart now, I doubt I'll be in any shape to walk 1,400km in the rain when I retire. I think that's a bit too arduous, particularly since I'm not a follower of Kannon or Kukai. I think I'll stick to the Saigoku pilgrimage, since I only have about 10 temples left to visit. At the rate I'm going, that will take another 5 years and the ones remaining are the most remote.

Talking of mountains, I've done a lot of driving in the mountains of Ehime and Kochi, and while I haven't bothered seeing Lord of the Rings (yet), I can rate the mountains of Shikoku to be something of a Mononoke-hime-grade (famous Hayao Miyazaki anime on early Shinto animism).  Awesome deep forest in deep mountains (well most of Japan is like that actually). 

That's interesting. I've never been to those areas, but they don't sound very accessible unless you have a car.

Yes, the forests in Princess Mononoke are similar the one in Lord of the Rings. Great movie, too.

Here's some guide I found in English.

Thanks. This is a useful site. I have The Traveler's Guide to Japanese Pilgrimages, which covers Shikoku, Saigoku and Mount Hiei.

[phibunmike]

Besides, you've already made a pilgrimage to Koya-san, the very first (if not the last) stop for the serious pilgrims who follow the footsteps of Kukai the Kobou Daishi.  I know it's not realistic taking two months leave from work working in Thailand and I don't know how many more years you have till your retirement but why not the Shikoku 88 temples pilgrimage for your post-retirement goal?  I'd be more keen on doing that myself than taking the Caribbean cruise.   

At the rate my body is falling apart now, I doubt I'll be in any shape to walk 1,400km in the rain when I retire. I think that's a bit too arduous, particularly since I'm not a follower of Kannon or Kukai. I think I'll stick to the Saigoku pilgrimage, since I only have about 10 temples left to visit. At the rate I'm going, that will take another 5 years and the ones remaining are the most remote.

Very interesting to read your experiences in Japan, thanks for sharing. I have (somehow) not yet visited Japan, but my son is at university there and is at this very moment plodding his way round the 88 temples !

[Nordlys]

Very interesting to read your experiences in Japan, thanks for sharing. I have (somehow) not yet visited Japan, but my son is at university there and is at this very moment plodding his way round the 88 temples !

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Interesting. Another gaijin on Shikoku 88 temples pilgrimage. Please keep us posted how it went for your son.

[sabaijai]

Just an update:

Tamnak Phramae Kuan-Im, founded by Ajahn Geong Seang in 1981, is a Mahayana Buddhist Community. There are 2.240 square maters (560 square wa) in the Bang Kapi district of Bangkok, Thailand. On this site are located one large, 3 storey for residence and religious ceremony; one rectangular building housing auspicious artifacts; one vertical, high, stylistic Chinese-style pagoda displaying Mahayana Bhodhisattavas and other Mahayana icons and images, and a sanitary facility building is currently under construction. Therefore, these buildings are established to support the main activities of the Tamnak Phramae Kuan-Im on spiritual development and social welfare service. It is also a place of Thailand's main centres of Mahayana Buddhism that takes a leading role in the promotion of Buddhist teachings and in the ordination of women.

Tamnak Phramae Kuan-Im Chock Chai 4

4/37 Chock Chai 4, Ladphroa Soi 39, Bangkok, Thailand, 10230.

Telephone (66) 09-789-5954, Fax: (66) 0-2538-9368, (66) 0-2931-6709

from the World Buddhist University website

[pinksquid]

I know that this topic is quite old, but my family (husband, son, and myself) completed the 88 temple pilgrimage last year and I plan on doing it many times more.