Aussies Help Thai Police Battle Sexual Exploitation

[SPIKECM]

The problem is defining an age of consent. There's a massive difference between pre and post pubescence. Culture takes over after pubescence as to what age a child becomes an adult. The trouble is that NGO's in Thailand can't decide themselves as to what age this is and in many cases impose their own cultural idea of what that age should be. There is a certain hypocrisy at work when The Sun newspaper (Britain's favourite) used to have 16 year olds on page 3. 16 is the age for marriage in the UK. It is hardly surprising that another culture uses a one year difference as an age of consent. I really don't think Thailand has any tolerance of pre-pubescent sex, which I would rather think as the true definition of a pedophile. It is just that there is more of a cultural tolerance of paid-for sex and sex with young post-pubescent girls. Not children.

The main NGO's working against sex with minors in the north of Thailand have grabbed 18 as the age limit which may or may not be the legal limit in Thailand. This means though that if anyone has sex with a 17 year old in Thailand this is deemed by them as "sex with a minor" and the men themselves no doubt as pedophiles. That though is surprising as the age of consent in the likes of the UK is 16. It makes it more difficult to control sex with children when you muddy the waters and deem sex with an 18 year old in the same category as a 10 year old.

Sex with children though, I wholeheartedly agree, is an assault on human dignity, which any government has a duty to control. Children need protection from exploitation, but there are two problems with executing the control of under age prostitution. One is that Thailand has a police force and a legal system which is corrupt beyond imagination. The second is what is badly needed is a clearly defined age limit. At present in Thailand there seems to be three: 15, 18 and 20 and that is confusing, especially with a police force which in some places run their own brothels.

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued". All this does is delay the time they engage in the industry. Any girl aged 15 in some bar has inevitably entered the industry already and almost always there will be no U turn in her life. You take away the bar and what has she to offer the world? A pair of hands at 25 baht an hour? There's your problem. Your idea of a "normal productive life" will not be her idea. There is nothing so "productive" as a life in a bar for most low educated Issan girls. It would be nice if you could offer her a job as an air hostess, but these jobs have all been taken by the well connected. All that's left is primarily service work and work in industry which pay about 30 baht an hour if you are lucky.

My comment about peeing in the ocean is because the real Job has not yet started if it is being recognized for the huge task it is. Not enuff just a few girls rescued and Aussies made heroes

If just one child is rescued from the industry and goes on to have a normal productive life wouldn't that squash all the negative posts on here? It is so easy for us to sit on our fat <deleted> and do absolutly nothing apart from moan about the problem. It is even easier to nitpic the humanatarian efforts of some who try. If people can do a better job, then put down that beer get off your arse and make it happen. Don't hang and quarter those that actually care and try to make a difference. I am 100% behind the efforts of the grey and and others who try.

This is not just about 15 yr old girls, it is also young boys some of the children are as young as 10 yrs old. But I guess what the hel_l the grey man should bugger off and leave young thai children in the industry and stop trying to interfer in the lifestyle many pay good money for. I see the point that all those making negative comments are eluding to. Yes the grey man is evil and the enemy of civil liberties.

Edited November 22, 2010 by SPIKECM

[shotover]

FAQ . . . . . . Do you accept volunteers?

Although we appreciate the generousity of people in wanting to donate their time to help The Grey Man we no longer accept volunteers. If you want to help in the fight against child trafficking the best way to do so is to either donate to us or join one of our branches (Newcastle, Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane)and get involved in fundraising. The more funds we have the more children we can rescue and send to school.

But organizations that do not accept volunteers willing to give their time to help, but only want monetary donations, raise my suspicion radar.

That's quite a leap of logic to make there. Maybe there are other possibilities ?

Maybe it takes specific skill sets to do the work ?

Maybe the Charity has more than enough volunteers already ?

Maybe they are otherwise engaged and cannot train new ones at the moment ?

Like I said, you've made quite a leap of logic and landed fuc_k knows where. It could also be because of a hundred other reasons, but you single out one imagined in your head and purport it to be fact.

It is very typical of posters on anonymous forums.

You've taken quite a leap of logic yourself in regards to my post. I never said there could not be any valid reason for asking only for money but not accepting volunteers, nor did I purport anything to be fact.

I simply said organizations who did this raised my suspicions.

I would like to see some facts such as financial disclosures (amounts received, amount of salaries and other administrative costs, percent of donations spent directly to benefit their clients, etc.).

An example of a similar well-known organization devoted to fighing child sex exploitation (a good cause, IMO) is the International Justice Mission.

To their credit, IJM does post their required financial disclosures online. (http://www.ijm.org/resources/financials/2009IRS990.pdf)

To their discredit, their staff salaries total $12.7 million USD, out of about $21.8 million in donations. Their top 10 officers average annual compensation of about $145,000 USD in 2009 . . . nice pay during the recession. The lowest compensation is $128,000, and the highest is about $233,000 annually. A total of 16 individuals in this organization recieved over $100k USD in compensation during 2009.

They did spend $192,000 on victim aftercare expenses in 2009.

[wooty]

"we are not trying to stamp out prostitution"

Is President Mr. John Curtis aware that prositution is actually illegal here in the first place????

This is all just an event for some group to get some press about what a bang up job they are doing to rid Thailand of this horrible crime. Arresting three 15 year old prostitutes is laughable. I could have done that in 15 minutes of walking out of my apartment door. I wonder how long they "investigated" the situation first.

http://thegreyman.org/blog/

Read this before you pass any further judgment on there work.It saddens me no end, to hear comments like this from expatriates living in Thailand.There investigations into underage sex rings in Cambodia,Burma,Laos and Thailand,are ongoing.they have my total support!!!

*************

Is this selfproclaimed charitable organisation here to fight crime, or are they in for the money? That would mean that they simply prey on the exploited children for their own monetary advantage. I would like to see some facts such as financial disclosures (amounts received, amount of salaries and other administrative costs, percent of donations spent directly to benefit their clients, etc.).

What do the Grey Men say about this? (http://www.ijm.org/r.../2009IRS990.pdf)

To their discredit, their staff salaries total $12.7 million USD, out of about $21.8 million in donations. Their top 10 officers average annual compensation of about $145,000 USD in 2009. . . nice pay for CHARITY and during the recession. The lowest compensation is $128,000, and the highest is about $233,000 annually. A total of 16 individuals in this organization recieved over $100k USD in compensation during 2009. They spent a meagre $192,000 on victim aftercare expenses in 2009.

So it seems to me a good idea for the Grey Men to hide behind their anonymity and expose supposed culprits by name. Who says that the Grey Men don't sell their info to the press and the highest bidder? What stops them from blackmail and extortion? They can't be taken to court: not in Thailand, because they "work" with the local police (and we all know what that means...), and not in Australia because they hide behind fictitious names. They put themselves outside the law, put on the noble mantle of charity and ride for their own glory and profit. I admire their marketing stunt to get the Aussi TV to make a free commercial - sorry: three part "documentary" - that apparently triggered donators to spend USD 21.8 mio where a meagre USD 192'000 might arrive at the victims level. There is a small line between charity and bravery on the one side, and froaud corruption, blackmail and extortion on the other.

[cup-O-coffee]

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued".

and on and on the enablers go...

You just took a piss on this person's view and don't even have the courtesy to call it a shower. The poster used quotation marks to insinuate sarcasm towards the "viable alternatives" that these girls are provided, That is my take on it anyway.

I suppose that were I to form my views from only 5% of what anyone said, then I too would appear as ignorant as what your comment suggests.

I believe his overall thesis is that the girls naturally choose the path of least resistance, and go with the lesser of two evils. If the alternatives to sex work were so great, the girls would be swarming to form queues at the employment line. I am sure they do not like what they do, but I am willing to bet that they like it a hel_l of a lot less when they are offered a job making cheap, plastic toys in a sweat-shop for 18 hours a day, and only 100 THB to show for it. If I am off on this guess, then point me in the direction of these queues so I can retract my view.

There's nothing ignorant (thanks for the flame, btw) about recognizing the concept that children aren't mature enough to be fully aware of their decision-making options. It's why children don't drive school buses, aren't allowed to buy Johnny Walker, and why statutory rape laws exist.

He also predicates emotions that the poster is completely unaware of, having presumably not ever having been a child prostitute. He knows these children's thoughts how?

If it were you, would you make that option? Take on a sweating, over-weight, foul-smelling customer, but with a 9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra to go with it? You'd really rather accept that than work in a factory?

btw, his "thesis" is just enabling prose.

Cut the eloquent crap! He is right and you are right so there is no point in bickering. These things happen both ways and other ways as well. His point, and I am supporting it, is that there are exponentially more scenarios where things are not as bad (in their view) as you make them out to be. How can I say that? Simple; these people view their sexuality and their version of normal quite differently than yours. What makes them sad and pained emotionally are totally different than what you allude to. There is no mention that a lot of these "rescued" children end up right back in the same norm that they were behaviorally raised into. That is the second of many reasons that drives his points home more.

He is talking reality. You are talking about alternatives that are attempted but have a very low success rate. Furthermore, he has just as much right to empathize with a situation as you do; especially when the issue he is empathizing with illustrates a more realistic scenario that what you propose.

"9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra"? That's priceless! Is that how you empathize? Is that the driving force that keeps you crusaders going; to imagine a 9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra set aside for every child out there? That is pretty awful. If that's the case you all need therapy!

EDIT: Incidentally, the post prior to this, that outlines the salaries of these crusaders, makes it apparently clear to me why they take up the cause. They deceive maudlin supporters into imagining 9 inch schlongs, while they are imagining 9 carat salaries.

Edited November 23, 2010 by cup-O-coffee

[Nawtier]

Is this selfproclaimed charitable organisation here to fight crime, or are they in for the money? That would mean that they simply prey on the exploited children for their own monetary advantage. I would like to see some facts such as financial disclosures (amounts received, amount of salaries and other administrative costs, percent of donations spent directly to benefit their clients, etc.).

What do the Grey Men say about this? (http://www.ijm.org/r.../2009IRS990.pdf)

To their discredit, their staff salaries total $12.7 million USD, out of about $21.8 million in donations. Their top 10 officers average annual compensation of about $145,000 USD in 2009. . . nice pay for CHARITY and during the recession. The lowest compensation is $128,000, and the highest is about $233,000 annually. A total of 16 individuals in this organization recieved over $100k USD in compensation during 2009. They spent a meagre $192,000 on victim aftercare expenses in 2009.

So it seems to me a good idea for the Grey Men to hide behind their anonymity and expose supposed culprits by name. Who says that the Grey Men don't sell their info to the press and the highest bidder? What stops them from blackmail and extortion? They can't be taken to court: not in Thailand, because they "work" with the local police (and we all know what that means...), and not in Australia because they hide behind fictitious names. They put themselves outside the law, put on the noble mantle of charity and ride for their own glory and profit. I admire their marketing stunt to get the Aussi TV to make a free commercial - sorry: three part "documentary" - that apparently triggered donators to spend USD 21.8 mio where a meagre USD 192'000 might arrive at the victims level. There is a small line between charity and bravery on the one side, and froaud corruption, blackmail and extortion on the other.

Wow Wooty....you really don't know how to read do you ??

But you do know how to go off the rails about something unrelated to what you were trying to talk about.....well done.

[Nawtier]

By the imagined futility of the endless sea of victims, most as stated here in their expert opinion, supplied and sold by their own families and the endless supply of perps.....the same logic should be applied to all scenarios then.

Murderers and rapists should not be pursued because they keep breeding and popping up day after day also right ??

Thinking that you are contributing to the continued cycle of the victims by engaging them as adults in prostitution services is giving you wonderous credit of mind reading powers to know this in the first place and trying to place guilt where any normal person would have no idea of that persons past and is a ridiculous call.

On one hand you claim it is a totally useless and wasteful cause, on the other you say you admire it...which is it....you agree with it or not.... having your cake and eating it !!

As for my own child being taken and this happening to him or her, then yes i would take things into my own hands given the opportunity....but talking about that behind your keyboard and quoting a TV show is very strange. Personaly, I would be able to call the grayman and any other similar or better organisations to help me almost instantly....doubt they would be waiting for approval from someone to act if they were suited to do so. On the other hand....i would not be able to find my secret society as they are ....well...secret and not in the yellow pages.

[Nawtier]

By the way....i believe that in Thailand, the requirements for the formation of a charity or foundation, amongst many requirements, is that no more than 40% of income is to be used for costs to run/support that entity.

The Thai childrens Trust, which is a UK charity I believe spent 36% of their income on expenses in 2009 if i read their report correctly.

It costs money to make money right ??

For sure, the other chairty mentioned above with the income of 21million etc and huge expenses, there certainly seems to be something wrong with it.

[mark45y]

One guy goes to Bangkok and pays 20 cops expenses for a trip to Ban Chang. The foreign guy goes in a Thai owned and managed brothel and picks out the youngest looking girl there. He takes her upstairs and while she is in the shower calls the Thai cops who come in and check everyone's ID. The cops find two 15 year old women. The Thai manager of the brothel spends a couple of days in jail in Bangkok.

OK. This happens in Pattaya every week. What is the big deal.

[moetownblues]

"we are not trying to stamp out prostitution"

Is President Mr. John Curtis aware that prositution is actually illegal here in the first place????

This is all just an event for some group to get some press about what a bang up job they are doing to rid Thailand of this horrible crime. Arresting three 15 year old prostitutes is laughable. I could have done that in 15 minutes of walking out of my apartment door. I wonder how long they "investigated" the situation first.

http://thegreyman.org/blog/

Read this before you pass any further judgment on there work.It saddens me no end, to hear comments like this from expatriates living in Thailand.There investigations into underage sex rings in Cambodia,Burma,Laos and Thailand,are ongoing.they have my total support!!!

*************

Is this selfproclaimed charitable organisation here to fight crime, or are they in for the money? That would mean that they simply prey on the exploited children for their own monetary advantage. I would like to see some facts such as financial disclosures (amounts received, amount of salaries and other administrative costs, percent of donations spent directly to benefit their clients, etc.).

What do the Grey Men say about this? (http://www.ijm.org/r.../2009IRS990.pdf)

To their discredit, their staff salaries total $12.7 million USD, out of about $21.8 million in donations. Their top 10 officers average annual compensation of about $145,000 USD in 2009. . . nice pay for CHARITY and during the recession. The lowest compensation is $128,000, and the highest is about $233,000 annually. A total of 16 individuals in this organization recieved over $100k USD in compensation during 2009. They spent a meagre $192,000 on victim aftercare expenses in 2009.

So it seems to me a good idea for the Grey Men to hide behind their anonymity and expose supposed culprits by name. Who says that the Grey Men don't sell their info to the press and the highest bidder? What stops them from blackmail and extortion? They can't be taken to court: not in Thailand, because they "work" with the local police (and we all know what that means...), and not in Australia because they hide behind fictitious names. They put themselves outside the law, put on the noble mantle of charity and ride for their own glory and profit. I admire their marketing stunt to get the Aussi TV to make a free commercial - sorry: three part "documentary" - that apparently triggered donators to spend USD 21.8 mio where a meagre USD 192'000 might arrive at the victims level. There is a small line between charity and bravery on the one side, and froaud corruption, blackmail and extortion on the other.

I have never heard such ridiculous dribble in all my life. The only person who gets paid is a thai in Bangkok. The other few still work fulltime jobs as public sernants and serving police officers. They give up thier free time for the cause and not financial gain. 12.7 million US dollars for the salaries what absolute poop. They recieve a couple of hundred 1000 Aust dollars per year for the organisation not themselves..

Self proclaimed charity more absolute dribble. They are a registered charity N# CH1673, IA35605

I

The prefix in the organisation number refers to:

• CH - Registered charity: an organisation authorised to fundraise in Queensland whose objects are solely charitable.
• IA - Incorporated Association: an association granted status as a legal entity under the Queensland Associations Incorporation Act

They are registered with the Australian tax office and bound by Australian law. The are audited just like any other organisation if they were found to be in breach of any Australian law then they would be prosecuted.

Established in 2004, The Grey Man is an Australian registered charity (CH1673) and An international organisation dedicated to eradicating the trafficking and exploitation of children. Based in Brisbane, Australia our activities are focused on the countries of South East Asia

I see in your text that you have an extreem hatred of these people and what they do. Why is that? Are they treading on your turf. Your post is full of absolute rubbish and not one single fact.

[mark45y]

I have never heard such ridiculous dribble in all my life. The only person who gets paid is a thai in Bangkok. The other few still work fulltime jobs as public sernants and serving police officers. They give up thier free time for the cause and not financial gain. 12.7 million US dollars for the salaries what absolute poop. They recieve a couple of hundred 1000 Aust dollars per year for the organisation not themselves..

Self proclaimed charity more absolute dribble. They are a registered charity N# CH1673, IA35605

I

The prefix in the organisation number refers to:

• CH - Registered charity: an organisation authorised to fundraise in Queensland whose objects are solely charitable.
• IA - Incorporated Association: an association granted status as a legal entity under the Queensland Associations Incorporation Act

They are registered with the Australian tax office and bound by Australian law. The are audited just like any other organisation if they were found to be in breach of any Australian law then they would be prosecuted.

Established in 2004, The Grey Man is an Australian registered charity (CH1673) and An international organisation dedicated to eradicating the trafficking and exploitation of children. Based in Brisbane, Australia our activities are focused on the countries of South East Asia

I see in your text that you have an extreem hatred of these people and what they do. Why is that? Are they treading on your turf. Your post is full of absolute rubbish and not one single fact.

You seem to know a lot about it moetownblues. Did they raid Champagne a go go in Pattaya too? I think the same Thai Bangkok cops were involved but I may have read the news story wrong.

[Buchholz]

and on and on the enablers go...

You just took a piss on this person's view and don't even have the courtesy to call it a shower. The poster used quotation marks to insinuate sarcasm towards the "viable alternatives" that these girls are provided, That is my take on it anyway.

I suppose that were I to form my views from only 5% of what anyone said, then I too would appear as ignorant as what your comment suggests.

I believe his overall thesis is that the girls naturally choose the path of least resistance, and go with the lesser of two evils. If the alternatives to sex work were so great, the girls would be swarming to form queues at the employment line. I am sure they do not like what they do, but I am willing to bet that they like it a hel_l of a lot less when they are offered a job making cheap, plastic toys in a sweat-shop for 18 hours a day, and only 100 THB to show for it. If I am off on this guess, then point me in the direction of these queues so I can retract my view.

There's nothing ignorant (thanks for the flame, btw) about recognizing the concept that children aren't mature enough to be fully aware of their decision-making options. It's why children don't drive school buses, aren't allowed to buy Johnny Walker, and why statutory rape laws exist.

He also predicates emotions that the poster is completely unaware of, having presumably not ever having been a child prostitute. He knows these children's thoughts how?

If it were you, would you make that option? Take on a sweating, over-weight, foul-smelling customer, but with a 9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra to go with it? You'd really rather accept that than work in a factory?

btw, his "thesis" is just enabling prose.

Cut the eloquent crap! He is right and you are right so there is no point in bickering. These things happen both ways and other ways as well. His point, and I am supporting it, is that there are exponentially more scenarios where things are not as bad (in their view) as you make them out to be. How can I say that? Simple; these people view their sexuality and their version of normal quite differently than yours. What makes them sad and pained emotionally are totally different than what you allude to. There is no mention that a lot of these "rescued" children end up right back in the same norm that they were behaviorally raised into. That is the second of many reasons that drives his points home more.

He is talking reality. You are talking about alternatives that are attempted but have a very low success rate. Furthermore, he has just as much right to empathize with a situation as you do; especially when the issue he is empathizing with illustrates a more realistic scenario that what you propose.

"9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra"? That's priceless! Is that how you empathize? Is that the driving force that keeps you crusaders going; to imagine a 9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra set aside for every child out there? That is pretty awful. If that's the case you all need therapy!

1. I'm not "bickering."

2. Please describe a situation for a child prostitute where it is "not as bad as" I "make it out to be." Are there scenarios in which their lives are deemed good?

3. How does a 9 year-old "view their sexuality"?

4. The point focused repeatedly on by the Greyman is to have the children NOT "end up right back." To that end, the field reports support the accomplishment of that goal, which is continuously improving.

5. His "empathy" seems to be on the side of the perpetrators whose actions he seemingly attempts to justify, whereas my empathy is directed at the victims.

6. I'm not a crusader.

7. I agree that a Viagramatic 9-inch schlong assaulting someone is "awful." I take it then by your non-answer to my hypothetical situation posed to you, that you would decline that work option yourself and instead, prefer to work in a factory. If that's the case, then why do you think a young girl would choose differently?

[moetownblues]

One guy goes to Bangkok and pays 20 cops expenses for a trip to Ban Chang. The foreign guy goes in a Thai owned and managed brothel and picks out the youngest looking girl there. He takes her upstairs and while she is in the shower calls the Thai cops who come in and check everyone's ID. The cops find two 15 year old women. The Thai manager of the brothel spends a couple of days in jail in Bangkok.

OK. This happens in Pattaya every week. What is the big deal.

Some are 10 yr old children and they do not just simply take them upstairs and call the cops. The " CHILDREN" are not in your average thai bar or brothel. They are underground in seady dens that cater solely for the pedophile market. Many sold by families or the result of human traficking. When hired from a pimp they are taken to a safe house and placed into the care of other agencies experienced in dealing with children. They are offered a better life.

[mark45y]

One guy goes to Bangkok and pays 20 cops expenses for a trip to Ban Chang. The foreign guy goes in a Thai owned and managed brothel and picks out the youngest looking girl there. He takes her upstairs and while she is in the shower calls the Thai cops who come in and check everyone's ID. The cops find two 15 year old women. The Thai manager of the brothel spends a couple of days in jail in Bangkok.

OK. This happens in Pattaya every week. What is the big deal.

Some are 10 yr old children and they do not just simply take them upstairs and call the cops. The " CHILDREN" are not in your average thai bar or brothel. They are underground in seady dens that cater solely for the pedophile market. Many sold by families or the result of human traficking. When hired from a pimp they are taken to a safe house and placed into the care of other agencies experienced in dealing with children. They are offered a better life.

Don't know about that. I was talking about the topic of this thread. It was a bar in Ban Chang and they caught two 15 year old women there. Would you address my question and don't lump me in with something else that I never mentioned. Thank you.

[Nawtier]

You guys need to learn to read.....and take it in....not just breeze over it.

[mark45y]

You guys need to learn to read.....and take it in....not just breeze over it.

And you mean what?

[cup-O-coffee]

By the imagined futility of the endless sea of victims, most as stated here in their expert opinion, supplied and sold by their own families and the endless supply of perps.....the same logic should be applied to all scenarios then.

Murderers and rapists should not be pursued because they keep breeding and popping up day after day also right ??

Thinking that you are contributing to the continued cycle of the victims by engaging them as adults in prostitution services is giving you wonderous credit of mind reading powers to know this in the first place and trying to place guilt where any normal person would have no idea of that persons past and is a ridiculous call.

On one hand you claim it is a totally useless and wasteful cause, on the other you say you admire it...which is it....you agree with it or not.... having your cake and eating it !!

As for my own child being taken and this happening to him or her, then yes i would take things into my own hands given the opportunity....but talking about that behind your keyboard and quoting a TV show is very strange. Personaly, I would be able to call the grayman and any other similar or better organisations to help me almost instantly....doubt they would be waiting for approval from someone to act if they were suited to do so. On the other hand....i would not be able to find my secret society as they are ....well...secret and not in the yellow pages.

I guess we generally agree on some points and on others we do not agree. That is okay.

[Nawtier]

I guess we generally agree on some points and on others we do not agree. That is okay.

Agreed.....nice post by the way....finally.

[shotover]

I have never heard such ridiculous dribble in all my life. The only person who gets paid is a thai in Bangkok. The other few still work fulltime jobs as public sernants and serving police officers. They give up thier free time for the cause and not financial gain. 12.7 million US dollars for the salaries what absolute poop. They recieve a couple of hundred 1000 Aust dollars per year for the organisation not themselves..

Self proclaimed charity more absolute dribble. They are a registered charity N# CH1673, IA35605

I

The prefix in the organisation number refers to:

• CH - Registered charity: an organisation authorised to fundraise in Queensland whose objects are solely charitable.
• IA - Incorporated Association: an association granted status as a legal entity under the Queensland Associations Incorporation Act

They are registered with the Australian tax office and bound by Australian law. The are audited just like any other organisation if they were found to be in breach of any Australian law then they would be prosecuted.

Established in 2004, The Grey Man is an Australian registered charity (CH1673) and An international organisation dedicated to eradicating the trafficking and exploitation of children. Based in Brisbane, Australia our activities are focused on the countries of South East Asia

I see in your text that you have an extreem hatred of these people and what they do. Why is that? Are they treading on your turf. Your post is full of absolute rubbish and not one single fact.

If the Grey Man investigators are working without salary, than I commend them for this. Much more noble than organizations such as the IJM who pay themselves 6-figure salaries while investigating crimes where the victims are impovershed.

Do they post their required financial disclosures and staff salaries online?

I searched online, but have not found anything yet.

Edited November 23, 2010 by shotover

[KhunAussie52]

I have never heard such ridiculous dribble in all my life. The only person who gets paid is a thai in Bangkok. The other few still work fulltime jobs as public sernants and serving police officers. They give up thier free time for the cause and not financial gain. 12.7 million US dollars for the salaries what absolute poop. They recieve a couple of hundred 1000 Aust dollars per year for the organisation not themselves..

Self proclaimed charity more absolute dribble. They are a registered charity N# CH1673, IA35605

I

The prefix in the organisation number refers to:

• CH - Registered charity: an organisation authorised to fundraise in Queensland whose objects are solely charitable.
• IA - Incorporated Association: an association granted status as a legal entity under the Queensland Associations Incorporation Act

They are registered with the Australian tax office and bound by Australian law. The are audited just like any other organisation if they were found to be in breach of any Australian law then they would be prosecuted.

Established in 2004, The Grey Man is an Australian registered charity (CH1673) and An international organisation dedicated to eradicating the trafficking and exploitation of children. Based in Brisbane, Australia our activities are focused on the countries of South East Asia

I see in your text that you have an extreem hatred of these people and what they do. Why is that? Are they treading on your turf. Your post is full of absolute rubbish and not one single fact.

If the Grey Man investigators are working without salary, than I commend them for this. Much more noble than organizations such as the IJM who pay themselves 6-figure salaries while investigating crimes where the victims are impovershed.

Do they post their required financial disclosures and staff salaries online?

I searched online, but have not found anything yet.

Then try this site!

http://www.thegreyma...id=10&Itemid=36

http://www.thegreyma...id=10&Itemid=36

Then check out FAQ

Was'nt to hard to find!!!

All positions are voluntary. In the villages at various times we occasionally need builders, plumbers, teachers, health workers, counselors, administrators, computer people, and others. However, anyone who wants to help is welcome. These volunteers are co-ordinated through our partner agency 'Kid's Ark Foundation' and generally we require a month of your time as a minimum.There are also roles in covert teams which are co-ordinated through our Director of Operations in Thailand and we can utilise you for a few days to a few weeks. However, it can be a long process to become involved in a covert team (6 months or more) and we prefer people with some experience though this is not always necessary, depending on the individual. We also prefer people who are willing to get involved in other aspects of our work. Bear in mind that we are increasingly utilizing local personnel in Thailand so the requirement for Caucasian personnel is diminishing.

Note: All Grey Man volunteers who work in Thailand are required to have a national police check and have completed the Grey Man basic course.

How do I know you are a genuine organization?

We are an incorporated non-profit organization under Australian law and a registered charity (No. CH1673). This can be checked through the Office of Fair Trading in Brisbane. Our books are audited annually.

http://www.fairtradi.../contact-us.htm

This is for an application under the right to information act Queensland

http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/right-to-information.htm

Edited November 23, 2010 by KhunAussie52

[farang008]

I am quoting a few entries from this blog from people who do not blindly believe the Grey Men's marketing material on their homepage.

"Child sexual exploitation is the hottest ticket in town now and a sure-fire way to get in on the money action if you can drum up enough allegations, or even fabricate a sting operation and lure unsuspecting people into your web. I would love to think the 'Greyman' Organisation really do not get paid for their work. This, I suspect, does not happen."

"The organisations reply of funding from the media blinded public and usually afford themselves massive paychecks when they are probably unemployable in the commercial world."

"Grey Men is like a ship on the ocean. The ocean is the Thai system and Greyman floats upon it. Sometimes the Thai system will give up a few farang fish. What began as a pure idea has now become corrupted by compromise. Greymen compromises their mission by not going after the people they can stop. If Mr. Curtis is indeed into intelligence and counter-intelligence as he says, I am sure he knows who the real culprits are, yet he draws the line at the few scrawny farang fish the ocean gives up to him. As self-acclaimed former top-notch soldiers, this compounds their insincerity more and more, each time they compromise further. These men are set up to do a little vigilante work, aren't they?"

"What happens if some Thai Police own some those bars? The Grey Men can't really raid those bars. This story is just stirring up shit for someone's purpose, not helping any children. This is a Thai problem, so let the Thais handle it. Those of us who have lived here for a long time know the real story about who profits from these children and how powerful and unstoppable they are. If you want to do something for the poor children, raise funds to build a small school. This won't make the headlines or give you a medal, but it will make a difference. Just like the last "politically correct" movement to rescue the underage children who were working in the factories for 50B per day, those women returned to their spoiled lives in the west, and the children returned to the factories, wondering who those crazy farang women were."

"When I first arrived in Thailand I was given good advice by a Thai: "You will live happily here if you don't interfere with our laws and our politics." Later when I worked for the Thai police as a volunteer medical adviser and was involved in a pedophile case, I was warned by a Thai policemen to cease and desist in my investigation if I wanted to stay alive. The only reason I can fathom that the Thai police have put up with these "good samaritans' is that they would lose face on an international level if they killed or arrested them. It's probably easier just to let them grab a few kids and write about how they were assisted by the Thai police."

"It is a fact that such organisations need money to help with their own paychecks. So what happens if anyone asks for transparency on the Grey Men's financing? Their top-paid guard dogs start a blog-campaign against those who ask the question here. How about the fact that in 2009, they managed to get their commercial aired on Aussi tv labeled as "documentary"? Well, it supposedly brought in over USD 21 mio in donations! Of which over USD 12 mio go for Grey Men's pay checks (see postings above that refer to their supposed financial disclosures). And of the USD 12 mio, the top 10 Grey Men cash in between 125'000 to over 200'000 EACH per annum! And a meager 192'000 out of 21 mio go to the "rescued" supposed victim's care. And what about the rest? The Grey Men prefer to stay hidden in the shades of anonymity."

"So the sad suspicion remains that the Grey Men cash in on the child exploitation by using drummed up cases for their own fund raising purposes. Australia is riddled with charities that have NGOs living the good life on others donations in the world. Full disclosure and accountability goe a long way to alleviate this type of concern which many have."

"Child sexual exploitation is the hottest ticket in town now and a sure-fire way to get in on the money action."

[moetownblues]

I am quoting a few entries from this blog from people who do not blindly believe the Grey Men's marketing material on their homepage.

"Child sexual exploitation is the hottest ticket in town now and a sure-fire way to get in on the money action if you can drum up enough allegations, or even fabricate a sting operation and lure unsuspecting people into your web. I would love to think the 'Greyman' Organisation really do not get paid for their work. This, I suspect, does not happen."

"The organisations reply of funding from the media blinded public and usually afford themselves massive paychecks when they are probably unemployable in the commercial world."

"Grey Men is like a ship on the ocean. The ocean is the Thai system and Greyman floats upon it. Sometimes the Thai system will give up a few farang fish. What began as a pure idea has now become corrupted by compromise. Greymen compromises their mission by not going after the people they can stop. If Mr. Curtis is indeed into intelligence and counter-intelligence as he says, I am sure he knows who the real culprits are, yet he draws the line at the few scrawny farang fish the ocean gives up to him. As self-acclaimed former top-notch soldiers, this compounds their insincerity more and more, each time they compromise further. These men are set up to do a little vigilante work, aren't they?"

"What happens if some Thai Police own some those bars? The Grey Men can't really raid those bars. This story is just stirring up shit for someone's purpose, not helping any children. This is a Thai problem, so let the Thais handle it. Those of us who have lived here for a long time know the real story about who profits from these children and how powerful and unstoppable they are. If you want to do something for the poor children, raise funds to build a small school. This won't make the headlines or give you a medal, but it will make a difference. Just like the last "politically correct" movement to rescue the underage children who were working in the factories for 50B per day, those women returned to their spoiled lives in the west, and the children returned to the factories, wondering who those crazy farang women were."

"When I first arrived in Thailand I was given good advice by a Thai: "You will live happily here if you don't interfere with our laws and our politics." Later when I worked for the Thai police as a volunteer medical adviser and was involved in a pedophile case, I was warned by a Thai policemen to cease and desist in my investigation if I wanted to stay alive. The only reason I can fathom that the Thai police have put up with these "good samaritans' is that they would lose face on an international level if they killed or arrested them. It's probably easier just to let them grab a few kids and write about how they were assisted by the Thai police."

"It is a fact that such organisations need money to help with their own paychecks. So what happens if anyone asks for transparency on the Grey Men's financing? Their top-paid guard dogs start a blog-campaign against those who ask the question here. How about the fact that in 2009, they managed to get their commercial aired on Aussi tv labeled as "documentary"? Well, it supposedly brought in over USD 21 mio in donations! Of which over USD 12 mio go for Grey Men's pay checks (see postings above that refer to their supposed financial disclosures). And of the USD 12 mio, the top 10 Grey Men cash in between 125'000 to over 200'000 EACH per annum! And a meager 192'000 out of 21 mio go to the "rescued" supposed victim's care. And what about the rest? The Grey Men prefer to stay hidden in the shades of anonymity."

"So the sad suspicion remains that the Grey Men cash in on the child exploitation by using drummed up cases for their own fund raising purposes. Australia is riddled with charities that have NGOs living the good life on others donations in the world. Full disclosure and accountability goe a long way to alleviate this type of concern which many have."

"Child sexual exploitation is the hottest ticket in town now and a sure-fire way to get in on the money action."

So many people on here scared of the greyman and thier lifestyle being disrupted and plea for the kids to be left in the industry.

[cup-O-coffee]

I guess we generally agree on some points and on others we do not agree. That is okay.

Agreed.....nice post by the way....finally.

[aussiejosh]

Shock! Horror! the world must be ending/

Who cares? Do gooders save 3 girls, partaaay.... now only 1,299,998 to go, not a constantly growing number nope nope

Honestly, who cares?

[OLDAUSSIE]

I am quoting a few entries from this blog from people who do not blindly believe the Grey Men's marketing material on their homepage.

"Child sexual exploitation is the hottest ticket in town now and a sure-fire way to get in on the money action if you can drum up enough allegations, or even fabricate a sting operation and lure unsuspecting people into your web. I would love to think the 'Greyman' Organisation really do not get paid for their work. This, I suspect, does not happen."

"The organisations reply of funding from the media blinded public and usually afford themselves massive paychecks when they are probably unemployable in the commercial world."

"Grey Men is like a ship on the ocean. The ocean is the Thai system and Greyman floats upon it. Sometimes the Thai system will give up a few farang fish. What began as a pure idea has now become corrupted by compromise. Greymen compromises their mission by not going after the people they can stop. If Mr. Curtis is indeed into intelligence and counter-intelligence as he says, I am sure he knows who the real culprits are, yet he draws the line at the few scrawny farang fish the ocean gives up to him. As self-acclaimed former top-notch soldiers, this compounds their insincerity more and more, each time they compromise further. These men are set up to do a little vigilante work, aren't they?"

"What happens if some Thai Police own some those bars? The Grey Men can't really raid those bars. This story is just stirring up shit for someone's purpose, not helping any children. This is a Thai problem, so let the Thais handle it. Those of us who have lived here for a long time know the real story about who profits from these children and how powerful and unstoppable they are. If you want to do something for the poor children, raise funds to build a small school. This won't make the headlines or give you a medal, but it will make a difference. Just like the last "politically correct" movement to rescue the underage children who were working in the factories for 50B per day, those women returned to their spoiled lives in the west, and the children returned to the factories, wondering who those crazy farang women were."

"When I first arrived in Thailand I was given good advice by a Thai: "You will live happily here if you don't interfere with our laws and our politics." Later when I worked for the Thai police as a volunteer medical adviser and was involved in a pedophile case, I was warned by a Thai policemen to cease and desist in my investigation if I wanted to stay alive. The only reason I can fathom that the Thai police have put up with these "good samaritans' is that they would lose face on an international level if they killed or arrested them. It's probably easier just to let them grab a few kids and write about how they were assisted by the Thai police."

"It is a fact that such organisations need money to help with their own paychecks. So what happens if anyone asks for transparency on the Grey Men's financing? Their top-paid guard dogs start a blog-campaign against those who ask the question here. How about the fact that in 2009, they managed to get their commercial aired on Aussi tv labeled as "documentary"? Well, it supposedly brought in over USD 21 mio in donations! Of which over USD 12 mio go for Grey Men's pay checks (see postings above that refer to their supposed financial disclosures). And of the USD 12 mio, the top 10 Grey Men cash in between 125'000 to over 200'000 EACH per annum! And a meager 192'000 out of 21 mio go to the "rescued" supposed victim's care. And what about the rest? The Grey Men prefer to stay hidden in the shades of anonymity."

"So the sad suspicion remains that the Grey Men cash in on the child exploitation by using drummed up cases for their own fund raising purposes. Australia is riddled with charities that have NGOs living the good life on others donations in the world. Full disclosure and accountability goe a long way to alleviate this type of concern which many have."

"Child sexual exploitation is the hottest ticket in town now and a sure-fire way to get in on the money action."

You are totally wrong!!

The Numbers that you are quoting are from the Web Site of I. J. M. Not The Grey Man.

Please get your facts straight before you post such dribble.

If you can read >>>> There is only ONE person paid by Grey Man and that is a Thai in Bangkok.

But try and have a nice day.

[Nawtier]

Honestly, who cares?

Probably the 3 girls that were rescued....possibly the parents if they were unaware of what they were into.......possibly...

[cup-O-coffee]

I am quoting a few entries from this blog from people who do not blindly believe the Grey Men's marketing material on their homepage.

"Child sexual exploitation is the hottest ticket in town now and a sure-fire way to get in on the money action if you can drum up enough allegations, or even fabricate a sting operation and lure unsuspecting people into your web. I would love to think the 'Greyman' Organisation really do not get paid for their work. This, I suspect, does not happen."

"The organisations reply of funding from the media blinded public and usually afford themselves massive paychecks when they are probably unemployable in the commercial world."

"Grey Men is like a ship on the ocean. The ocean is the Thai system and Greyman floats upon it. Sometimes the Thai system will give up a few farang fish. What began as a pure idea has now become corrupted by compromise. Greymen compromises their mission by not going after the people they can stop. If Mr. Curtis is indeed into intelligence and counter-intelligence as he says, I am sure he knows who the real culprits are, yet he draws the line at the few scrawny farang fish the ocean gives up to him. As self-acclaimed former top-notch soldiers, this compounds their insincerity more and more, each time they compromise further. These men are set up to do a little vigilante work, aren't they?"

"What happens if some Thai Police own some those bars? The Grey Men can't really raid those bars. This story is just stirring up shit for someone's purpose, not helping any children. This is a Thai problem, so let the Thais handle it. Those of us who have lived here for a long time know the real story about who profits from these children and how powerful and unstoppable they are. If you want to do something for the poor children, raise funds to build a small school. This won't make the headlines or give you a medal, but it will make a difference. Just like the last "politically correct" movement to rescue the underage children who were working in the factories for 50B per day, those women returned to their spoiled lives in the west, and the children returned to the factories, wondering who those crazy farang women were."

"When I first arrived in Thailand I was given good advice by a Thai: "You will live happily here if you don't interfere with our laws and our politics." Later when I worked for the Thai police as a volunteer medical adviser and was involved in a pedophile case, I was warned by a Thai policemen to cease and desist in my investigation if I wanted to stay alive. The only reason I can fathom that the Thai police have put up with these "good samaritans' is that they would lose face on an international level if they killed or arrested them. It's probably easier just to let them grab a few kids and write about how they were assisted by the Thai police."

"It is a fact that such organisations need money to help with their own paychecks. So what happens if anyone asks for transparency on the Grey Men's financing? Their top-paid guard dogs start a blog-campaign against those who ask the question here. How about the fact that in 2009, they managed to get their commercial aired on Aussi tv labeled as "documentary"? Well, it supposedly brought in over USD 21 mio in donations! Of which over USD 12 mio go for Grey Men's pay checks (see postings above that refer to their supposed financial disclosures). And of the USD 12 mio, the top 10 Grey Men cash in between 125'000 to over 200'000 EACH per annum! And a meager 192'000 out of 21 mio go to the "rescued" supposed victim's care. And what about the rest? The Grey Men prefer to stay hidden in the shades of anonymity."

"So the sad suspicion remains that the Grey Men cash in on the child exploitation by using drummed up cases for their own fund raising purposes. Australia is riddled with charities that have NGOs living the good life on others donations in the world. Full disclosure and accountability goe a long way to alleviate this type of concern which many have."

"Child sexual exploitation is the hottest ticket in town now and a sure-fire way to get in on the money action."

So many people on here scared of the greyman and thier lifestyle being disrupted and plea for the kids to be left in the industry.

MTB you simply can't let it go without a parting shot at what I consider to be well thought out and legitimate concerns of people who describe Greyman much the same as if we were trying to describe the NSA or CIA or FBI.

The facts of the matter is that these Grey Men claim to be covert, and they can not release a lot of their information, and so we can never know the full extent of what they do and don't do.

The percentage of good that they do, and the percentage of evil that they do can never be known. Giving them an article in the newspaper is about as stupid as doing the same for the NSA or CIA or FBI. A lot of what Greyman does is condemned not by the results of what they do, but by the kinds of people they consort with!

Another area where law and custom dramatically diverge is in the well-known penchant of Thais for gambling in all its myriad forms. In addition to the underground lottery noted above, illegal gambling casinos and gambling in soccer, boxing and other sports are multibillion-dollar enterprises. Recent studies under the aegis of the Political Economy Research Center, Chulalongkorn University, estimated that casinos, underground lotteries and soccer gambling accounted for as much as Baht 900 billion in circulation or almost 20% of the GNP for 1995. The research indicated that these illegal businesses thrived with the support and protection of policemen, politicians and bu(s)iness elites. Other elements of this illegal underground black economy include narcotics trafficking; human trafficking, including prostitutes and labor; illicit arms trade; and oil smuggling.

So the point is: Yes, they do save some, and considering the amount of cash they spend, and the numbers of crooked people they glad hand, you would think that they would at least come forward with an article that describes a lot more than three 15 year olds.

Defending this organization with comments like, "If they save even one child, blah blah blah..." is about as stupid as throwing a rock at an M1 Abrams tank and exulting in shouts of joy because you chipped its paint. "Well, at least he got up off his ass and threw a rock at the M1 Abrams tank and chipped its paint! If they can even make one chip of paint fall on the ground, then they are doing something!". It's funny, because the person throwing the rock has a loaded Anti Tank Rocket launcher right next to him, and won't use it, because he is afraid he would miss and the M! Abrams tank would fry his skin.

Greyman is going through the motions, and nothing more. They decide when to wake up in the morning and go to bed at night. They set their "rescue" time line. They set their quota. They decide their raids, and they target their perps and victims... or do they? If you believe they have absolute control of their decisions here, then you are more gullible than I gave you credit for. Again, I do not need to know anything about Greyman; but once I know that they deal with known criminals and corrupt minds, then that connects the missing pieces.

MTB, it is insulting to read your otherwise intelligent posts, but suffer your childish, baiting, one-liners towards legitimate truths that you don't want to acknowledge. Don't slag people because they know this, and it is true. Birds of a feather! Manipulating and hiding behind a truth - that saving a child is a good thing - is cowardly whenever any half intelligent individual knows it could be a lot more, but the method that they choose spares a penny but spites a pound, just so they can get their quota and justify their existence with a fund-raiser.

I am happy for the children saved, but feel repugnant towards the (fixed) selection process and the ones who control it, and it is sort of a sick and twisted lottery, isn't it?

Edited November 24, 2010 by cup-O-coffee

[garyh]

Shock! Horror! the world must be ending/

Who cares? Do gooders save 3 girls, partaaay.... now only 1,299,998 to go, not a constantly growing number nope nope

Honestly, who cares?

You probably had a nice middle class Australian childhood, did you ever stop to think what your childhood would have been like if you where taken for others to what they want with you sexually?

[Buchholz]

Shock! Horror! the world must be ending/

Who cares? Do gooders save 3 girls, partaaay.... now only 1,299,998 to go, not a constantly growing number nope nope

Honestly, who cares?

Any one who cares enough to hope that this:

four Cambodian girls aged between 14 and 15 were rescued from padlocked rooms with bars on the windows.

doesn't get forced into meeting this:

Take on a sweating, over-weight, foul-smelling customer, but with a 9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra to go with it

[moetownblues]

Shock! Horror! the world must be ending/

Who cares? Do gooders save 3 girls, partaaay.... now only 1,299,998 to go, not a constantly growing number nope nope

Honestly, who cares?

WHO CARES? Well obviously not you. Actually "A LOT" of people do actually care about children being sexually used and abused. I know that comes as a great shock to you. I have dealt with children who have been the victims of pedophilles (Rock Spiders) You are definately not a parent. If you were what would you do if you found someone sexually abusing your 8,9 or 10 yr old daughter or son? Oh I know you would say who cares the kids will get over it.

[Nawtier]

"It is a fact that such organisations need money to help with their own paychecks. So what happens if anyone asks for transparency on the Grey Men's financing? Their top-paid guard dogs start a blog-campaign against those who ask the question here. How about the fact that in 2009, they managed to get their commercial aired on Aussi tv labeled as "documentary"? Well, it supposedly brought in over USD 21 mio in donations! Of which over USD 12 mio go for Grey Men's pay checks (see postings above that refer to their supposed financial disclosures). And of the USD 12 mio, the top 10 Grey Men cash in between 125'000 to over 200'000 EACH per annum! And a meager 192'000 out of 21 mio go to the "rescued" supposed victim's care. And what about the rest? The Grey Men prefer to stay hidden in the shades of anonymity."

You are a bit of a retard 008 when you quote something like this and obviously have not absorbd one thing you have claimed to read....go forth and read it again....then come back here and apologise if you have the gonads.