Aussies Help Thai Police Battle Sexual Exploitation

[Nawtier]

Cannot you read into his 3 worded replies ....it is all we are worthy of.

As for cup of joes reply.....well, sheesh...i shall need to read that again during daylight hours.

[philw]

no it does not.

sorry

yes, agree 100%

Could you expand on either of these?

no need I think, should be pretty clear.

Agree 100% means I agree with those comments and in my opinion "disagreement + disbelief" does not equal opposition, merely disagreement and disbelief.

[philw]

Cannot you read into his 3 worded replies ....it is all we are worthy of.

As for cup of joes reply.....well, sheesh...i shall need to read that again during daylight hours.

probably correct........

Still working on getting it down to 1.

[Buchholz]

I found this on Lt cambodia Blogspot, Same problem, different country. but it is exactly the sort of situation greyman seems guilty of promoting

She is at least 25 years old, divorced and has a three year old daughter.

Doesn't sound much like a similar situation to the OP

An Australian charity, helping the Thai police fight under-age sexual exploitation, conducted a sting op. Nov16. in Ban Chang, rescuing three 15-year-old females

[SPIKECM]

I agree. I have been coming to Thailand for 20 years and lived here for the last 10 and my personal experience of coming across anyone engaging in child sex is pretty well non existent. That is apart from what I read in the papers and I never assume anyone is guilty of anything in Thailand just because the Thai police have arrested them. If you are found guilty of anything in Thailand, usually you are guilty of one thing and that is not being rich enough.

When my son was younger (he's half Thai) I used to get strange looks from tourists in hotels and one guy even asked me who he was in the elevator. "You can't be too careful" he said. Obviously he saw himself as some one man crusade, but his actions I see it more as an infringement of my right to go about my life with my family. These people really do think Thai people are unabashed if they see foreigners openly procuring children for sex in their country. And that is just pure cultural arrogance.

Edited November 21, 2010 by SPIKECM

[moetownblues]

My comment about peeing in the ocean is because the real Job has not yet started if it is being recognized for the huge task it is. Not enuff just a few girls rescued and Aussies made heroes

If just one child is rescued from the industry and goes on to have a normal productive life wouldn't that squash all the negative posts on here? It is so easy for us to sit on our fat <deleted> and do absolutly nothing apart from moan about the problem. It is even easier to nitpic the humanatarian efforts of some who try. If people can do a better job, then put down that beer get off your arse and make it happen. Don't hang and quarter those that actually care and try to make a difference. I am 100% behind the efforts of the grey and and others who try.

[nameless]

I am very afraid that when all has quitened down after departure of these people, it will all be normal within a day or two.

I just wonder, all those farang organisations trying to weed out sexual exploitation in Thailand, how about their own country?

I do think that most expats heard about, saw it themselves, everything about minors in the bargirl scene.

Try to go to the police!

And just see what happens.

Who says they have departed ?

[nameless]

I would love to think the 'Greyman' Organisation really do not get paid for their work and pay out of their own pocket for the upmarket hotels and airfares.

This I suspect does not happen.

NGO's are the often the dregs of society usually doing little, running around in expensive vehicles pushing their beliefs on a population who are not interested...Usually worse than missionaries.

The organisations reply of funding from the media blinded public and usually afford themselves massive paychecks when they are probably unemployable in the commercial world.

I also wonder if the person from the organisation who has been posting should really be involved as he is doing this work on the back of a guilt trip over a partners death, hardly a detatched voice of reason ?

Yes child exploitation is disgusting but if people think that exposing a few more westerners as travel pedos does anything more than provide you with funds then they are seriously mistaken. The problem is endemic in Thai society and there is no way the Thai government is going to let you stick your nose in that.

Child exploitation is rife but you choose to only pick on the sex exploitation is that because it brings in funding quicker or can you explain why the organisation focuses just on that area ?

A previous poster is correct in saying the Thai's let organisations like yours root out a few western bad apples because it takes the spotlight away from them and the real problem.

I really do get annoyed at NGO's holier than though attitudes. Most are driven by religion, yours is not but seems to be driven by the fact you are washed up ex army trying to find a reason for your existence or from guilt but I may be wrong

Please wipe out child abuse in your backyard before saving the rest of the world though.

To save me searching would the op please inform us of the salary the head of your organisation gets paid for his good works ?

Zero...Get informed before you post dribble.

[OLDAUSSIE]

I would love to think the 'Greyman' Organisation really do not get paid for their work and pay out of their own pocket for the upmarket hotels and airfares.

This I suspect does not happen.

NGO's are the often the dregs of society usually doing little, running around in expensive vehicles pushing their beliefs on a population who are not interested...Usually worse than missionaries.

The organisations reply of funding from the media blinded public and usually afford themselves massive paychecks when they are probably unemployable in the commercial world.

I also wonder if the person from the organisation who has been posting should really be involved as he is doing this work on the back of a guilt trip over a partners death, hardly a detatched voice of reason ?

Yes child exploitation is disgusting but if people think that exposing a few more westerners as travel pedos does anything more than provide you with funds then they are seriously mistaken. The problem is endemic in Thai society and there is no way the Thai government is going to let you stick your nose in that.

Child exploitation is rife but you choose to only pick on the sex exploitation is that because it brings in funding quicker or can you explain why the organisation focuses just on that area ?

A previous poster is correct in saying the Thai's let organisations like yours root out a few western bad apples because it takes the spotlight away from them and the real problem.

I really do get annoyed at NGO's holier than though attitudes. Most are driven by religion, yours is not but seems to be driven by the fact you are washed up ex army trying to find a reason for your existence or from guilt but I may be wrong

Please wipe out child abuse in your backyard before saving the rest of the world though.

To save me searching would the op please inform us of the salary the head of your organisation gets paid for his good works ?

Zero...Get informed before you post dribble.

AXACT, Please take the time to read their web site and look at the VDO's.

The Grey Man is NOT an NGO it is a registered Charity in Australia.

Please get your information correct before you post negative dribble .

Best Regards and have a nice day.

I am in no way connected to The Grey Man I'm just to old for that kind of stuff but I support them 100% because at least they are trying to do something about the problem not only in Thailand but also in other country's around S.E. Asia.

Human Trafficking has become a major problem in Asia and the money gained from this then also links in Drug Running and arms smuggling these people will stop at nothing to make a quick buck.

[OLDAUSSIE]

. I will however chastise them when they turn their backs on their noble deeds and turn to me, the general population, in an effort to curry financial support for a method I have a right to disagree on.

I have a son. I love him. I take care of him.

So, you being the general population and voice of all can tell the likes of greyman to stop what they do because it is a fruitless saga ?

When were you voted the voice of the general population by the way...I must have missed that broadcast.

If you know of some magical software out there that can preclude you from graymans and any other similar organisation marketing approach, then please let them have it as i am sure they would prefer to direct target people that do want to help, or at least might want to.

It is a fact that these organisations need money to help with what they do....if you do not like that, then it is so much easier for you to ignore them, than it is for them to not market to you.

I actually agree with many of your points, but i do not think that as you do, people should not do anything when it comes to young children.

You have a son...good for you, so do I as well as a daughter and an adopted one to boot.

Now imagine your son as I did recently about mine, I am not sure how old your son is, but simply change the ages here to suit your sons age......recently I watched a video on child sexual abuse....it was not graphic, but the shots it did show were quite emotional to a father with a son of the same age as depicted in the video. The boy, 8yo was tied up, arms, hands to ankles, legs, gagged and blindfolded and lying on a bed. That is all that was to it.....but then place your son in that position, imagine what would be going through your sons mind and wondering where you were and why this is happening. That is a sickening thought and if that child, my child, anyones child tied up on that bed could be rescued by the Greyman....then what you are saying is you think it is a futile effort.

It might be futile in that he is just one, but that one is your or my son say....is it futile then ?....there might be 10 more waiting to replace him...but should he be left there and be number 11 ?

You paint a broad brush in that every child in this position is there because of parental neglect or sold there....what about the ones abducted and their parents are worried sick if they will ever see their child again and what is happening to them right now. If this child was theirs....would it be ok to leave them because it will only be replaced tomorrow ?

Thanks for the comment. I read your post several times and see nothing more than a hysterical and unrealistic reaction to truths you and I have no power over. It is as simple as that. I mean it when I thank you for your sincerity, and I do not mean to be harsh, but I hope you respect what I feel strongly about as you read on.

You have a right to feel responsible for every human being that is conceived. That is a reliable weakness that often falls prey to evil people. Your use of a strawman, by imagining convenient horrors (a small boy gagged and bound upon a bed) is unmoving to say the least simply because you imagined it. I can spend my time all day imagining horrible things, but there is no future in it. There is too much reality to take the place of imagining, but I am aware of my limitations, and I choose what I allow into my mind over the course of my day. I will, however, respond in kind to that further down.

My discussion is not about the children as much as it is about people who feel that their lives are inadequate (watch the movies). These people get it in their head (a vision?) to start a religious crusade. These people then expect everyone to slap them on the back and glad hand them and throw a parade in their honor, and give them VIP seating at every event.

But what is worst of all about crusaders and their acolytes, such as yourself (it would appear) is that you all seem to expect that just because you make a personal decision to choose a "Noble" cause (no matter how stupid and futile) that you are touched by the hand of God and granted some sort of immunity from criticism and scrutiny from normal, everyday people such as myself. Subsequently, you feel that you can tread people's views under foot because you are doing something that no one in their right mind would disagree with, except in whispers. I have had more than my fill of people like this throughout my life, and it is disingenuous to the reasons for existing. It clouds the true purpose of being.

Greyman is a feel-good thing. It is like a ship on the ocean. The ocean is the Thai system. Greyman floats upon the Thai system and sometimes the Thai system will give up a few fish; but at the end of the day Greyman is at the mercy of the ocean, and so are all of the fish in that ocean, whom Greyman would like to catch. What began as a pure idea has now become corrupted by compromise. Greyman compromises their mission by not going after the people they can stop. If Mr. Curtis is indeed into intelligence and counter-intelligence as he says, I am sure he knows who the real culprits are, yet he draws the line at the few scrawny fish the ocean gives up to him. As former top-notch soldiers, this compounds their insincerity more and more, each time they compromise further. These men are set up to do a little vigilante work, aren't they?

You describe what an angry father would do were his boy gagged and bound to a bed, then I ask you, if you have the means to do a little mop-up, and do not do it, but instead dance with the devil; well... that is why I am a non-believer in this crusade. If these kids were kidnapped Australian citizens being held hostage by the Thai system, I gather the reaction would be different? IMHO people who deal in child slavery and abuse deserve a few ounces of lead in their noggin', no more, no less, and absolutely zero discussion.

If every human trafficker and politician and businessman connected to human trafficking knew that they were a human target with an invisible number on it, they would think twice. They would live everyday knowing that this could be their last day on earth, because there is someone out there who feels that strongly about what they do to children.

You ask me about wanting Mr. Curtis to save my child? No! Absolutely not. My child would be gone and dead before Mr. Curtis waited around for the green light from his corrupt Thai buddies. I would rather fund a secret organization that found these people and put a bullet in their heads, instead of compromising. I would like to fund something like this because I could not do it myself due to lack of ability and intelligence. That is why I referred to the movie "Taken". The way the father dealt with the politician in the elevator exactly describes how I feel this issue should be dealt with. Start from the bottom and clean up as you go all the way to the top. If you do not feel this way, and the means and methods are there to do it, then you are talking out of the side of your mouth. What makes the rescue schedule time line any faster or slower regarding the kidnapping of a politician's fat, spoiled brat, or a neighbor selling a malnutritioned urchin in a mountain village?

I don't know who you are.

I don't know what you want.

If you are looking for ransom,

I can tell you I don't have money.

But what I do have are a very particular set of skills;

skills I have acquired over a very long career.

Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.

If you let my daughter go now, that'll be the end of it.

I will not look for you,

I will not pursue you.

But if you don't, I will look for you,

I will find you,

and I will kill you.

-------------------------

The stench of insincerity pervades my senses regarding what could really be done for all children, but is only done at random, and only for wealthy people. They call it a war. Well, they tried that crap with Vietnam, and we all know about the Senator's sons. It is not a war against human trafficking; it is a police action, designed to treat the symptoms and create a cottage industry with acceptable losses as collateral damage. If it were a war, there would be reports every day about well known and little known people dying from bullet holes to their heads, and discoveries of huge sweat shops in run-down buildings.

Don't deny me the right to say it like it is, according to my interpretation, and please dispense with the strawman if you wish to criticize. People are always the cannon fodder for rich people's greed. Children are no exception, and neither are goody two-shoes crusaders who allow a leash to be placed upon their neck by the villains.

You failed to read all these posts, or you would have read somewhere that I do admire noble deeds, no matter how futile, however, there is no requirement for me to feel compelled to support these deeds that are futile. Nor is there any altruistic law that forbids me from exposing the simple truths that a lot of these crusaders are in it for the personal glory and satisfaction. I have very little tolerance for people who create their own personal agenda and make a religion out of it. It is easy to see these people, because invariably they always start holding their hands out because they see their vision dying for lack of funds (important note: THEIR vision).

I also have a very low tolerance for acolytes of these sprouting, religious crusades, who think people like me are fair game for the "You are either with us, or against us!" campaign. I am not with you or against you, so please do not try to label me and find a place for me in your feel-good crusade.

You watch far too many movies & perhaps drink far too much Coffee.

[moetownblues]

. I will however chastise them when they turn their backs on their noble deeds and turn to me, the general population, in an effort to curry financial support for a method I have a right to disagree on.

I have a son. I love him. I take care of him.

So, you being the general population and voice of all can tell the likes of greyman to stop what they do because it is a fruitless saga ?

When were you voted the voice of the general population by the way...I must have missed that broadcast.

If you know of some magical software out there that can preclude you from graymans and any other similar organisation marketing approach, then please let them have it as i am sure they would prefer to direct target people that do want to help, or at least might want to.

It is a fact that these organisations need money to help with what they do....if you do not like that, then it is so much easier for you to ignore them, than it is for them to not market to you.

I actually agree with many of your points, but i do not think that as you do, people should not do anything when it comes to young children.

You have a son...good for you, so do I as well as a daughter and an adopted one to boot.

Now imagine your son as I did recently about mine, I am not sure how old your son is, but simply change the ages here to suit your sons age......recently I watched a video on child sexual abuse....it was not graphic, but the shots it did show were quite emotional to a father with a son of the same age as depicted in the video. The boy, 8yo was tied up, arms, hands to ankles, legs, gagged and blindfolded and lying on a bed. That is all that was to it.....but then place your son in that position, imagine what would be going through your sons mind and wondering where you were and why this is happening. That is a sickening thought and if that child, my child, anyones child tied up on that bed could be rescued by the Greyman....then what you are saying is you think it is a futile effort.

It might be futile in that he is just one, but that one is your or my son say....is it futile then ?....there might be 10 more waiting to replace him...but should he be left there and be number 11 ?

You paint a broad brush in that every child in this position is there because of parental neglect or sold there....what about the ones abducted and their parents are worried sick if they will ever see their child again and what is happening to them right now. If this child was theirs....would it be ok to leave them because it will only be replaced tomorrow ?

Thanks for the comment. I read your post several times and see nothing more than a hysterical and unrealistic reaction to truths you and I have no power over. It is as simple as that. I mean it when I thank you for your sincerity, and I do not mean to be harsh, but I hope you respect what I feel strongly about as you read on.

You have a right to feel responsible for every human being that is conceived. That is a reliable weakness that often falls prey to evil people. Your use of a strawman, by imagining convenient horrors (a small boy gagged and bound upon a bed) is unmoving to say the least simply because you imagined it. I can spend my time all day imagining horrible things, but there is no future in it. There is too much reality to take the place of imagining, but I am aware of my limitations, and I choose what I allow into my mind over the course of my day. I will, however, respond in kind to that further down.

My discussion is not about the children as much as it is about people who feel that their lives are inadequate (watch the movies). These people get it in their head (a vision?) to start a religious crusade. These people then expect everyone to slap them on the back and glad hand them and throw a parade in their honor, and give them VIP seating at every event.

But what is worst of all about crusaders and their acolytes, such as yourself (it would appear) is that you all seem to expect that just because you make a personal decision to choose a "Noble" cause (no matter how stupid and futile) that you are touched by the hand of God and granted some sort of immunity from criticism and scrutiny from normal, everyday people such as myself. Subsequently, you feel that you can tread people's views under foot because you are doing something that no one in their right mind would disagree with, except in whispers. I have had more than my fill of people like this throughout my life, and it is disingenuous to the reasons for existing. It clouds the true purpose of being.

Greyman is a feel-good thing. It is like a ship on the ocean. The ocean is the Thai system. Greyman floats upon the Thai system and sometimes the Thai system will give up a few fish; but at the end of the day Greyman is at the mercy of the ocean, and so are all of the fish in that ocean, whom Greyman would like to catch. What began as a pure idea has now become corrupted by compromise. Greyman compromises their mission by not going after the people they can stop. If Mr. Curtis is indeed into intelligence and counter-intelligence as he says, I am sure he knows who the real culprits are, yet he draws the line at the few scrawny fish the ocean gives up to him. As former top-notch soldiers, this compounds their insincerity more and more, each time they compromise further. These men are set up to do a little vigilante work, aren't they?

You describe what an angry father would do were his boy gagged and bound to a bed, then I ask you, if you have the means to do a little mop-up, and do not do it, but instead dance with the devil; well... that is why I am a non-believer in this crusade. If these kids were kidnapped Australian citizens being held hostage by the Thai system, I gather the reaction would be different? IMHO people who deal in child slavery and abuse deserve a few ounces of lead in their noggin', no more, no less, and absolutely zero discussion.

If every human trafficker and politician and businessman connected to human trafficking knew that they were a human target with an invisible number on it, they would think twice. They would live everyday knowing that this could be their last day on earth, because there is someone out there who feels that strongly about what they do to children.

You ask me about wanting Mr. Curtis to save my child? No! Absolutely not. My child would be gone and dead before Mr. Curtis waited around for the green light from his corrupt Thai buddies. I would rather fund a secret organization that found these people and put a bullet in their heads, instead of compromising. I would like to fund something like this because I could not do it myself due to lack of ability and intelligence. That is why I referred to the movie "Taken". The way the father dealt with the politician in the elevator exactly describes how I feel this issue should be dealt with. Start from the bottom and clean up as you go all the way to the top. If you do not feel this way, and the means and methods are there to do it, then you are talking out of the side of your mouth. What makes the rescue schedule time line any faster or slower regarding the kidnapping of a politician's fat, spoiled brat, or a neighbor selling a malnutritioned urchin in a mountain village?

I don't know who you are.

I don't know what you want.

If you are looking for ransom,

I can tell you I don't have money.

But what I do have are a very particular set of skills;

skills I have acquired over a very long career.

Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.

If you let my daughter go now, that'll be the end of it.

I will not look for you,

I will not pursue you.

But if you don't, I will look for you,

I will find you,

and I will kill you.

-------------------------

The stench of insincerity pervades my senses regarding what could really be done for all children, but is only done at random, and only for wealthy people. They call it a war. Well, they tried that crap with Vietnam, and we all know about the Senator's sons. It is not a war against human trafficking; it is a police action, designed to treat the symptoms and create a cottage industry with acceptable losses as collateral damage. If it were a war, there would be reports every day about well known and little known people dying from bullet holes to their heads, and discoveries of huge sweat shops in run-down buildings.

Don't deny me the right to say it like it is, according to my interpretation, and please dispense with the strawman if you wish to criticize. People are always the cannon fodder for rich people's greed. Children are no exception, and neither are goody two-shoes crusaders who allow a leash to be placed upon their neck by the villains.

You failed to read all these posts, or you would have read somewhere that I do admire noble deeds, no matter how futile, however, there is no requirement for me to feel compelled to support these deeds that are futile. Nor is there any altruistic law that forbids me from exposing the simple truths that a lot of these crusaders are in it for the personal glory and satisfaction. I have very little tolerance for people who create their own personal agenda and make a religion out of it. It is easy to see these people, because invariably they always start holding their hands out because they see their vision dying for lack of funds (important note: THEIR vision).

I also have a very low tolerance for acolytes of these sprouting, religious crusades, who think people like me are fair game for the "You are either with us, or against us!" campaign. I am not with you or against you, so please do not try to label me and find a place for me in your feel-good crusade.

You watch far too many movies & perhaps drink far too much Coffee.

[cup-O-coffee]

My comment about peeing in the ocean is because the real Job has not yet started if it is being recognized for the huge task it is. Not enuff just a few girls rescued and Aussies made heroes

If just one child is rescued from the industry and goes on to have a normal productive life wouldn't that squash all the negative posts on here? It is so easy for us to sit on our fat <deleted> and do absolutly nothing apart from moan about the problem. It is even easier to nitpic the humanatarian efforts of some who try. If people can do a better job, then put down that beer get off your arse and make it happen. Don't hang and quarter those that actually care and try to make a difference. I am 100% behind the efforts of the grey and and others who try.

That is a mention of a noble thing that stands alone, and does not do anything but assuage your own conscience. That is an unacceptable statistic compared to the many more undocumented / "unsaved" children, who rise from abuse on their own (no thanks to people who compromise with the enemy) and make a life that they would probably consider good enough for living, and they would absolutely not understand what you are on about.

No documentaries there; or have you ever knowingly or unknowingly slept with a prostitute who was formerly an underage sex slave. Perhaps she mentioned it over the course of the drinks that you bought her, and were subjected to her life story. Were that the case, and she told you she is a former underage sex slave, and you went on with the intention of taking her, then aren't you then simply perpetuating the crime that you are against? No? I am wrong? Then what good does it do to be a crusader for these girls if they will be sleeping with their saviors, the preachers and the choir in a few years? That really cheapens the noble picture about the crusade, doesn't it? Do the wealthy female farangs who donate to your cause know about this? Is it simply a statement that when kids grow up to be bar girls and prostitutes, the "crusade-O-meter" drops a few notches below the red-line and then its okay to "rescue" them for 1000 THB?

Let me put this another way. If victims of underage sex are truly classified as damaged (and I have read a lot of crusader's posts agreeing with this diagnosis), then anyone who sleeps with them after they are of legal age, is sleeping with a girl who is still damaged, right? She never got a chance to "get it right" before she could make the decision on her own to be a prostitute, at an appropriate age, to start with a level playing field, right?

Just doing this once, whether knowingly or unknowingly gets you booted out of the the crusade, in my opinion.

You watch far too many movies & perhaps drink far too much Coffee.

No! you are wrong. There is nothing wrong with me saying that I would do every thing within my limitations to end any person that did that to my son. You apparently think that is funny, and make what I consider a thoughtless and smart-ass comment about it. That is one more reason why I would never enlist the likes of you to do a job that a loving father would do, and you do not have the nerve to do, or try.

Furthermore, how many "underage" girls has a "crusader for kids" saved before, that could now possibly be the very prostitutes that this "crusader for kids" happens to P4P with? If you did or do this sort of thing (and I am not saying that you did or do), but if you did; then did you ever bother to ask the girl you wish to take with you if she was abused as a child? That way, as a "crusader for kids", you can have a clear conscience, and only take home girls who began to prostitute themselves at the age of 18, and under their own conscience, right? I mean, you are not handling the damaged goods that you could not save at an earlier date, and they never got rescued and put in their right mind because you didn't get to them, but there you are now enabling their damaged thinking.

If you do not ask, or they tell you, and you knowingly P4P with them, then you are a hypocrite, because you are enabling a link in the chain of an industry that you not only abhor, but stand at the podium and take applause for.

Maybe you need a cup of coffee to wake up and smell the roses, and have a little respect for people who do not choose to follow your path, but would become a nightmare to anyone who hurt their child. Just because you choose to play Roger Ramjet and consort with the enemy, and accept the fishes they toss to you, does not allow you the right to trample my decision to live my own life and be responsible for my own actions and decisions.

That is the reality that I view when I read your posts.

By the way, if you really believe that you are doing good, then you really shouldn't be on here arguing with people who have a different opinion. Simply let it go, and continue to do what you think is good, and do the footwork for donations, and accept differing opinions without defending what is right. Hold fast and press in and ignore idiots like me who distract you from your vision.

Oddly enough, I truly do admire what you do, but this consistent defense of what you do really cheapens your vision in my eyes; as well as removes you from my list of being good if you sleep with girls who are former sex slaves, instead of just giving them the money, your business card, and a big fatherly hug, and walking away.

Regarding "cheap"; It seems odd for a soldier, who willingly marches into a battle that they, their self, began, to turn around and cry for help when the odds are stacked against them; or belittle the ones who constructively criticize the method and choice of battle.

EDIT: You posted before I posted this, so I am aware that you are only an armchair crusader. The figurative scenario still fits, though.

Edited November 21, 2010 by cup-O-coffee

[Buchholz]

This is all just an event for some group to get some press about what a bang up job they are doing to rid Thailand of this horrible crime. Arresting three 15 year old prostitutes is laughable. I could have done that in 15 minutes of walking out of my apartment door. I wonder how long they "investigated" the situation first.

Exactly, the word 'rescue' is used to make it an impressive story, but seems total shullbit as there's nothing about the girls being held prison, chained in a cellar and raped, so this is a complete nonsense story made for the international media machine.[/font]

The (probably christian, what else) 'humanitarian organization' are a bunch of whiners who need attention but choose the easy way and don't help anybody with this 'rescue'. The girls will hate loosing their job this way !

Read my last post.No religious affiliation.

If you read there blog site,maybe,just maybe you might form an opinion based on facts and evidence obtained.After extensive investigations.

With trying to counter a notable number of apologizing and enabling and detracting posts, it seems you have an uphill battle, KhunAussie.

It would appear even more so now after the last few posts.

[cdnvic]

Two posts that were potentially libellous were removed.

[Richard W]

Such as improvement to the education system in the country, so that peasants from Isaan would not have to sell or shame their daughters into prostitution.

Things have been getting better. The educational level of bargirls has been dropping (or has it started rising, now?). Also, the under-age prostitutes in brothels seem less likely to be ethnic Thais than they used to be.

[farang008]

The Grey Man home page, the Aussie TV "documentary" or the youtube-vids are nothing but touting self-marketing material of the Grey Man and worth as much as any mediocre tv commercial. As long as the Grey Men are meddling with other countries affairs, taking the law into their own hands and insist on staying anonymous, they lose any credibility. John Curtis and his action heroes don't have the guts to stand up for the abused Aborigines in their own home country, but rather decide to parttake in the heroic saving of some angelic virgins deep in the jungle of vice from the fangs of some evil farangs, and to get as much publicity about this as possible. How pathetic can you get? I just wonder how the Grey Men can work independently in a supposedly highly corrupted system, how they deal with sensitive material (remember, they take pictures!), and what or who is preventing them from selling out to the highest bidder? John Curtis seems an honourable man; so are they all; all honourable men...O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts, and men have lost their reason. Bear with me; my heart is in the bar there with the children, and I must pause till it come back to me.

[shotover]

FAQ . . . . . . Do you accept volunteers?

Although we appreciate the generousity of people in wanting to donate their time to help The Grey Man we no longer accept volunteers. If you want to help in the fight against child trafficking the best way to do so is to either donate to us or join one of our branches (Newcastle, Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane)and get involved in fundraising. The more funds we have the more children we can rescue and send to school.

I can't speak to this specific organization; But organizations that do not accept volunteers willing to give their time to help, but only want monetary donations, raise my suspicion radar. Does this organization have its financial statements posted on the internet to give potential donors some assurance that their contributions are being used effectively?

Are Aussie and Thai law enforcement so corrupt or inept that they cannot conduct their own investigations? Hmmm, maybe they are.

You seem to be quite obsessed with the subject of child sex exploitation, given the enormous amount of time you spend researching this topic. Are you affiliated with the Grey Men organization? If not, you should be.

I've looked, but not yet found, the nationality of the 'western' owners of the bar raided in Ban Chang. Any idea?

[jayjay0]

I would love to think the 'Greyman' Organisation really do not get paid for their work and pay out of their own pocket for the upmarket hotels and airfares.

This I suspect does not happen.

NGO's are the often the dregs of society usually doing little, running around in expensive vehicles pushing their beliefs on a population who are not interested...Usually worse than missionaries.

The organisations reply of funding from the media blinded public and usually afford themselves massive paychecks when they are probably unemployable in the commercial world.

I also wonder if the person from the organisation who has been posting should really be involved as he is doing this work on the back of a guilt trip over a partners death, hardly a detatched voice of reason ?

Yes child exploitation is disgusting but if people think that exposing a few more westerners as travel pedos does anything more than provide you with funds then they are seriously mistaken. The problem is endemic in Thai society and there is no way the Thai government is going to let you stick your nose in that.

Child exploitation is rife but you choose to only pick on the sex exploitation is that because it brings in funding quicker or can you explain why the organisation focuses just on that area ?

A previous poster is correct in saying the Thai's let organisations like yours root out a few western bad apples because it takes the spotlight away from them and the real problem.

I really do get annoyed at NGO's holier than though attitudes. Most are driven by religion, yours is not but seems to be driven by the fact you are washed up ex army trying to find a reason for your existence or from guilt but I may be wrong

Please wipe out child abuse in your backyard before saving the rest of the world though.

To save me searching would the op please inform us of the salary the head of your organisation gets paid for his good works ?

Zero...Get informed before you post dribble.

There resources are limited and to take on any other problems that come with child exploitation would further hamper there ability to do any thing. It would just mean that they needed more money.

Shoe maker stick to thy lath. (heard that some place)

[SPIKECM]

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued". All this does is delay the time they engage in the industry. Any girl aged 15 in some bar has inevitably entered the industry already and almost always there will be no U turn in her life. You take away the bar and what has she to offer the world? A pair of hands at 25 baht an hour? There's your problem. Your idea of a "normal productive life" will not be her idea. There is nothing so "productive" as a life in a bar for most low educated Issan girls. It would be nice if you could offer her a job, the likes of an air hostess, but these jobs have all been taken by the well connected. All that's left is primarily service work and work in industry which pays about 30 baht an hour if you are lucky.

My comment about peeing in the ocean is because the real Job has not yet started if it is being recognized for the huge task it is. Not enuff just a few girls rescued and Aussies made heroes

If just one child is rescued from the industry and goes on to have a normal productive life wouldn't that squash all the negative posts on here? It is so easy for us to sit on our fat <deleted> and do absolutly nothing apart from moan about the problem. It is even easier to nitpic the humanatarian efforts of some who try. If people can do a better job, then put down that beer get off your arse and make it happen. Don't hang and quarter those that actually care and try to make a difference. I am 100% behind the efforts of the grey and and others who try.

Edited November 22, 2010 by SPIKECM

[SPIKECM]

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued". All this does is delay the time they engage in the industry. Any girl aged 15 in some bar has inevitably entered the industry already and almost always there will be no U turn in her life. You take away the bar and what has she to offer the world? A pair of hands at 25 baht an hour? There's your problem. Your idea of a "normal productive life" will not be her idea. There is nothing so "productive" as a life in a bar for most low educated Issan girls. It would be nice if you could offer her a job as an air hostess, but these jobs have all been taken by the well connected. All that's left is primarily service work and work in industry which pay about 30 baht an hour if you are lucky.

My comment about peeing in the ocean is because the real Job has not yet started if it is being recognized for the huge task it is. Not enuff just a few girls rescued and Aussies made heroes

If just one child is rescued from the industry and goes on to have a normal productive life wouldn't that squash all the negative posts on here? It is so easy for us to sit on our fat <deleted> and do absolutly nothing apart from moan about the problem. It is even easier to nitpic the humanatarian efforts of some who try. If people can do a better job, then put down that beer get off your arse and make it happen. Don't hang and quarter those that actually care and try to make a difference. I am 100% behind the efforts of the grey and and others who try.

[Buchholz]

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued".

and on and on the enablers go...

[cup-O-coffee]

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued".

and on and on the enablers go...

You just took a piss on this person's view and don't even have the courtesy to call it a shower. The poster used quotation marks to insinuate sarcasm towards the "viable alternatives" that these girls are provided, That is my take on it anyway.

I suppose that were I to form my views from only 5% of what anyone said, then I too would appear as ignorant as what your comment suggests.

I believe his overall thesis is that the girls naturally choose the path of least resistance, and go with the lesser of two evils. If the alternatives to sex work were so great, the girls would be swarming to form queues at the employment line. I am sure they do not like what they do, but I am willing to bet that they like it a hel_l of a lot less when they are offered a job making cheap, plastic toys in a sweat-shop for 18 hours a day, and only 100 THB to show for it. If I am off on this guess, then point me in the direction of these queues so I can retract my view.

Edited November 22, 2010 by cup-O-coffee

[moetownblues]

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued". All this does is delay the time they engage in the industry. Any girl aged 15 in some bar has inevitably entered the industry already and almost always there will be no U turn in her life. You take away the bar and what has she to offer the world? A pair of hands at 25 baht an hour? There's your problem. Your idea of a "normal productive life" will not be her idea. There is nothing so "productive" as a life in a bar for most low educated Issan girls. It would be nice if you could offer her a job as an air hostess, but these jobs have all been taken by the well connected. All that's left is primarily service work and work in industry which pay about 30 baht an hour if you are lucky.

My comment about peeing in the ocean is because the real Job has not yet started if it is being recognized for the huge task it is. Not enuff just a few girls rescued and Aussies made heroes

If just one child is rescued from the industry and goes on to have a normal productive life wouldn't that squash all the negative posts on here? It is so easy for us to sit on our fat <deleted> and do absolutly nothing apart from moan about the problem. It is even easier to nitpic the humanatarian efforts of some who try. If people can do a better job, then put down that beer get off your arse and make it happen. Don't hang and quarter those that actually care and try to make a difference. I am 100% behind the efforts of the grey and and others who try.

This is not just about 15 yr old girls, it is also young boys some of the children are as young as 10 yrs old. But I guess what the hel_l the grey man should bugger off and leave young thai children in the industry and stop trying to interfer in the lifestyle many pay good money for. I see the point that all those making negative comments are eluding to. Yes the grey man is evil and the enemy of civil liberties.

[nameless]

The Grey Man home page, the Aussie TV "documentary" or the youtube-vids are nothing but touting self-marketing material of the Grey Man and worth as much as any mediocre tv commercial. As long as the Grey Men are meddling with other countries affairs, taking the law into their own hands and insist on staying anonymous, they lose any credibility. John Curtis and his action heroes don't have the guts to stand up for the abused Aborigines in their own home country, but rather decide to parttake in the heroic saving of some angelic virgins deep in the jungle of vice from the fangs of some evil farangs, and to get as much publicity about this as possible. How pathetic can you get? I just wonder how the Grey Men can work independently in a supposedly highly corrupted system, how they deal with sensitive material (remember, they take pictures!), and what or who is preventing them from selling out to the highest bidder? John Curtis seems an honourable man; so are they all; all honourable men...O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts, and men have lost their reason. Bear with me; my heart is in the bar there with the children, and I must pause till it come back to me.

<deleted> ?? I want whatever you are taking !

[nameless]

FAQ . . . . . . Do you accept volunteers?

Although we appreciate the generousity of people in wanting to donate their time to help The Grey Man we no longer accept volunteers. If you want to help in the fight against child trafficking the best way to do so is to either donate to us or join one of our branches (Newcastle, Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane)and get involved in fundraising. The more funds we have the more children we can rescue and send to school.

But organizations that do not accept volunteers willing to give their time to help, but only want monetary donations, raise my suspicion radar.

That's quite a leap of logic to make there. Maybe there are other possibilities ?

Maybe it takes specific skill sets to do the work ?

Maybe the Charity has more than enough volunteers already ?

Maybe they are otherwise engaged and cannot train new ones at the moment ?

Like I said, you've made quite a leap of logic and landed fuc_k knows where. It could also be because of a hundred other reasons, but you single out one imagined in your head and purport it to be fact.

It is very typical of posters on anonymous forums.

[nameless]

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued".

You need help mate and have obviously no exprience in this field whatsoever

[Buchholz]

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued".

and on and on the enablers go...

You just took a piss on this person's view and don't even have the courtesy to call it a shower. The poster used quotation marks to insinuate sarcasm towards the "viable alternatives" that these girls are provided, That is my take on it anyway.

I suppose that were I to form my views from only 5% of what anyone said, then I too would appear as ignorant as what your comment suggests.

I believe his overall thesis is that the girls naturally choose the path of least resistance, and go with the lesser of two evils. If the alternatives to sex work were so great, the girls would be swarming to form queues at the employment line. I am sure they do not like what they do, but I am willing to bet that they like it a hel_l of a lot less when they are offered a job making cheap, plastic toys in a sweat-shop for 18 hours a day, and only 100 THB to show for it. If I am off on this guess, then point me in the direction of these queues so I can retract my view.

There's nothing ignorant (thanks for the flame, btw) about recognizing the concept that children aren't mature enough to be fully aware of their decision-making options. It's why children don't drive school buses, aren't allowed to buy Johnny Walker, and why statutory rape laws exist.

He also predicates emotions that the poster is completely unaware of, having presumably not ever having been a child prostitute. He knows these children's thoughts how?

If it were you, would you make that option? Take on a sweating, over-weight, foul-smelling customer, but with a 9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra to go with it? You'd really rather accept that than work in a factory?

btw, his "thesis" is just enabling prose.

.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Buchholz

[Nawtier]

Take on a sweating, over-weight, foul-smelling customer, but with a 9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra to go with it? You'd really rather accept that than work in a factory?

Not all their customers are German...

[Nawtier]

Take on a sweating, over-weight, foul-smelling customer, but with a 9 inch schlong and a case of Viagra to go with it? You'd really rather accept that than work in a factory?

Not all their customers are German...

[SPIKECM]

Good comprehensive argument. You obviously know what you are talking about. These girls in Bahn Chang are just desperate for some farang to come and send them back to Nakhorn Nowhere.

The problem is that the girls themselves don't want "rescued".

You need help mate and have obviously no exprience in this field whatsoever

Edited November 22, 2010 by SPIKECM