Thai PM Abhisit To Discuss Ban On Goods With His Image

[rixalex]

By-elections are rarely an indication - and depends where they are. Anyway we will not really know until IT happens - which the current government are trying to stall as long as possible.

If a government reached the end of its term and started giving excuses for why elections couldn't be held, that would be stalling.

A government that has yet to reach the end of its term has no obligation to call early elections and if it chooses not to, that is not stalling, that is serving out its term - something which people claiming to be pro-democracy lovers should welcome.

I am not particularly in favour of a 'red' government but I am against the rich, elitist 'yellows' - if you see what I mean.

No i don't see what you mean. The people at the top of both the yellow and the red movements are all rich elitists who only have their own interests at heart, and it's the people at the top who will ultimately benefit from any success their group manages to achieve.

[jdinasia]

Ah .. that is a great answer CMF! It not only lets you off the hook for answering any of my questions but also includes an attack on the poster himself

Again ... there is no paradigm shift occurring since there is no change in the thought process occurring. The redshirt movement might be mistakenly labeled as leading to a paradigm shift, but since it is still relying on the patronage system to exist, the label would be erroneous.

[geriatrickid]

Where does anyone get off claiming they have a right to exploit the image of someone else? Did these vendors have Abhisit's permission to use his image? Are they paying him for the right to use his image? <deleted> the vendors. They are making a quick baht off someone else's propietary asset. It's theft plain and simple. Oh sure some will giggle at the Thaksin toilet tissue, but that is still an infringement on someone else's rights. Thailand will get it's knickers in a knot over images used to promote "disunity" but not a peep when it comes to knockoffs, ripoffs and intellectual property theft.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Ah .. that is a great answer CMF! It not only lets you off the hook for answering any of my questions but also includes an attack on the poster himself

Again ... there is no paradigm shift occurring since there is no change in the thought process occurring. The redshirt movement might be mistakenly labeled as leading to a paradigm shift, but since it is still relying on the patronage system to exist, the label would be erroneous.

No attack intended - but if you can't be open to the idea of a cultural shift (as has happened in ALL other societies in the world) then how can we discuss sensibly? I am not trying to ‘score points’ at all – or try and make anyone look stupid or, indeed, make myself look ‘clever’. I just outline my approach and point out that your approach is very much micro mine is macro and you keep asking detailed questions which are irrelevant within the cultural shift context. Saying ‘what about this politician, or that situation’ is irrelevant in the broad stroke context. To say 'there is no paradigm shift occuring' is absurd - ina micro context I hear Thais all the time questioning things they would never have dared question before - including 'you know what' - a typical sign of thinking changing.

[ChiangMaiFun]

By-elections are rarely an indication - and depends where they are. Anyway we will not really know until IT happens - which the current government are trying to stall as long as possible.

If a government reached the end of its term and started giving excuses for why elections couldn't be held, that would be stalling.

A government that has yet to reach the end of its term has no obligation to call early elections and if it chooses not to, that is not stalling, that is serving out its term - something which people claiming to be pro-democracy lovers should welcome.

I am not particularly in favour of a 'red' government but I am against the rich, elitist 'yellows' - if you see what I mean.

No i don't see what you mean. The people at the top of both the yellow and the red movements are all rich elitists who only have their own interests at heart, and it's the people at the top who will ultimately benefit from any success their group manages to achieve.

well that is true there are 'elitist' elements in both and I am against them in either camp - people love to put others into a 'box' (he's a red etc.) and if that's the case he loves Thaksin - none of this is fair nor true - I am for the poor and down-trodden and against the 'controllers' at the top. If only we had a aung sung suu kyi - but we don't.

[jdinasia]

By-elections are rarely an indication - and depends where they are. Anyway we will not really know until IT happens - which the current government are trying to stall as long as possible.

If a government reached the end of its term and started giving excuses for why elections couldn't be held, that would be stalling.

A government that has yet to reach the end of its term has no obligation to call early elections and if it chooses not to, that is not stalling, that is serving out its term - something which people claiming to be pro-democracy lovers should welcome.

I am not particularly in favour of a 'red' government but I am against the rich, elitist 'yellows' - if you see what I mean.

No i don't see what you mean. The people at the top of both the yellow and the red movements are all rich elitists who only have their own interests at heart, and it's the people at the top who will ultimately benefit from any success their group manages to achieve.

good post rix

[rixalex]

people love to put others into a 'box' (he's a red etc.) and if that's the case he loves Thaksin - none of this is fair nor true -

All the time the red movement continues to fight on Thaksin's behalf and very little else, people who support the group will naturally be assumed to be fans of his, because to support the reds implicitly means supporting Thaksin. Why? Well because if the reds political arm (the PTP) wins they will set about bringing him back, returning his money, and whitewashing him of any crimes he may have committed. Anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves in my opinion.

[jdinasia]

people love to put others into a 'box' (he's a red etc.) and if that's the case he loves Thaksin - none of this is fair nor true -

All the time the red movement continues to fight on Thaksin's behalf and very little else, people who support the group will naturally be assumed to be fans of his, because to support the reds implicitly means supporting Thaksin. Why? Well because if the reds political arm (the PTP) wins they will set about bringing him back, returning his money, and whitewashing him of any crimes he may have committed. Anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves in my opinion.

Agreed.

Regarding a "paradigm shift" --- the patronage system is both the micro and the macro --- and no real shift is occurring at all. Every generation has it's outspoken people in Thailand and yet year after year the patronage system stays in place. The reds are NOT moving away from that so any paradigm shift that people think they are seeing is just an illusion.

[animatic]

By-elections are rarely an indication - and depends where they are. Anyway we will not really know until IT happens - which the current government are trying to stall as long as possible.

If a government reached the end of its term and started giving excuses for why elections couldn't be held, that would be stalling.

A government that has yet to reach the end of its term has no obligation to call early elections and if it chooses not to, that is not stalling, that is serving out its term - something which people claiming to be pro-democracy lovers should welcome.

I am not particularly in favour of a 'red' government but I am against the rich, elitist 'yellows' - if you see what I mean.

No i don't see what you mean. The people at the top of both the yellow and the red movements are all rich elitists who only have their own interests at heart, and it's the people at the top who will ultimately benefit from any success their group manages to achieve.

good post rix

Agreed. It's not about a peoples revolution from the ground up,

but a changing of the elites at the top through the people,

as a tool of power politics..

Which elite is the least harmful? Which elite is the most harmful?

Which does the most good, even if it still acts in the traditional manner?

These are the real questions of the day.

The bottom line is NO NATION IS WITHOUT AN ELITE AT THE TOP running things. Even the most egalitarian and communist/socialist nations had elites running the show. The non-elite are, as proven by history, not prepared or trained to get the job done, if suddenly thrust at the levers of power. One might philosophically wish it differently, but it has always been so. The actual training to have the mental tools to govern, is part and parcel of being elite. They can not be separated, but better to have the trained and competent in control, than the untrained and philosophically narrow of focus, or purely self-serving in charge.

Edited November 21, 2010 by animatic

[givenall]

This is very Thai. I saw a roll of toilet paper with Thaksin face printed on it and had a good laugh. Having someones face under feet? Who cares?

May be he started to think he is a prophet

[animatic]

This is very Thai. I saw a roll of toilet paper with Thaksin face printed on it and had a good laugh. Having someones face under feet? Who cares?

May be he started to think he is a prophet

The Thais care,

not sure if showing the foot is better or worse than wiping your rear on someones picture, but I understand that they are not so far apart in the local consciousness.

You can 'moon' someone here and they will laugh, but show them the bottom of your foot and that's fighting words. People have died because they aimed a foot sole at another Thai.

Edited November 21, 2010 by animatic

[philw]

In many countries governments would stand or fall following an investigation of civilian deaths on this scale.In Thailand zip, nothing, zero.

And before someone mentions the drug war killings, doesn't the complete absence of follow up and accountability prove my point?

I agree with you. I think even more than the drug killings, the events at Tak Bai illustrate your point. Thaksin's also been given an incredibly easy ride from western commentators considering what happened there and his subsequent comments.

I know the 'double standards' mantra has pretty much been copyrighted by the Reds now; but to be calling for the current PM to stand trial as a murderer while waving pictures of the man whose government oversaw Tak Bai and made sure no one was held accountable has got to be a prime candidate for the 'double standards' label.

Good point and it would be excellent if Tak Bai, the drug war murders, Rohingyas pushed back out to sea and all the other human rights abuses were fully and carefully investigated and any wrong doers punished.

From any side.

Edited November 21, 2010 by philw

[ChiangMaiFun]

people love to put others into a 'box' (he's a red etc.) and if that's the case he loves Thaksin - none of this is fair nor true -

All the time the red movement continues to fight on Thaksin's behalf and very little else, people who support the group will naturally be assumed to be fans of his, because to support the reds implicitly means supporting Thaksin. Why? Well because if the reds political arm (the PTP) wins they will set about bringing him back, returning his money, and whitewashing him of any crimes he may have committed. Anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves in my opinion.

yes,yes but it's not just about the 'reds' - Thailand irrevocably is moving forwards and that's the thing I am referring to - anyway enough already! I see all movements (Burma etc.) as a shift in conciousness and i see it here - slow but sure.

[Tokay]

You can buy ANYTHING in Thailand from enslaved children to fake Rolex watches and everything in-between. But goods with Abhisit's image.... FORGET IT.

Makes sense.

[Buchholz]

You can buy ANYTHING in Thailand from enslaved children to fake Rolex watches and everything in-between. But goods with Abhisit's image.... FORGET IT.

Makes sense.

What makes sense is Abhisit's stance.

[jayboy]

In many countries governments would stand or fall following an investigation of civilian deaths on this scale.In Thailand zip, nothing, zero.

And before someone mentions the drug war killings, doesn't the complete absence of follow up and accountability prove my point?

I agree with you. I think even more than the drug killings, the events at Tak Bai illustrate your point. Thaksin's also been given an incredibly easy ride from western commentators considering what happened there and his subsequent comments.

I know the 'double standards' mantra has pretty much been copyrighted by the Reds now; but to be calling for the current PM to stand trial as a murderer while waving pictures of the man whose government oversaw Tak Bai and made sure no one was held accountable has got to be a prime candidate for the 'double standards' label.

I would have thought the drug killings had far more of Thaksin's stamp on them (he was directly responsible for the strategy) than the Tak Bai massacre where he would have known nothing until after the event.Even his enemies never maintained Thaksin gave the orders for the latter.However as to Tak Bai he is I think still culpable on two counts, firstly the responsibility he has to take as PM at the time and secondly for the negative and unhelpful position he took on Southern problems (though one should note that few elite Thais would take a different view, say on some form of local autonomy).

[jucel]

I tend to agree that the domestic situation must be the main reason, and by a considerable factor.The human rights aspect was however mentioned in the press reports, but again I agree this is hardly likely to have been a major consideration.

Still there are some odd aspects to the local perception of the deaths earlier this year.Almost no discussion, investigations going nowhere and within seconds of me mentioning it, posts made about red propaganda.In many countries governments would stand or fall following an investigation of civilian deaths on this scale.In Thailand zip, nothing, zero.

And before someone mentions the drug war killings, doesn't the complete absence of follow up and accountability prove my point?

The only mystery is in your head. A group of terrorists tried to take over the government unwilling to negotiate. Put thousands of honest citizens out of work. Indiscriminate bombing invasion of hospitals. Illegally seized a portion of down town Bangkok and when they like little babies couldn't get there way they tried to burn it down. How do you see a mystery in the death of some of them in the freeing up of down town Bangkok.

Nonsense - get your facts right - anyway roll on elections coz they will be voted in!

I agree (somewhat). The government did "negotiate" and offered them elections that would of been and gone by now.

you seem to forget that the 'elections' were offered with significant caveats!

[SergeiY]

Abhisit scores another very good point. And all governments will have noted the glaring "Since I am not in CRES, I do not know details about the ban". This guy is clever, he keeps going further up in my estimation.

Yes, Abhisit didn't do anything as he always do nothing and can continue to keep his face "clean". Meanwhile the other guy will be still blamed for everything.

[Insight]

you seem to forget that the 'elections' were offered with significant caveats!

Care to remind us what they were and why the red shirts had problems with them?

[jdinasia]

you seem to forget that the 'elections' were offered with significant caveats!

Care to remind us what they were and why the red shirts had problems with them?

ummm there were no caveats on the first offer other than the date would be "before the end of the year." --- The reds entertained the idea until that fateful SMS (this was televised and during the 3:3 government and redshirt meetings)

The second time was after more redshirt violence and threats of even more redshirt violence. That offer came with several caveats ---- like stop the violence and go home

[TAWP]

Today the GF was flipping through the channels and we came upon one that I right away guessed was pro-Thaksin, so I asked the GF and she confirmed it by re-telling what was being said.

The 'reporter' was 'interviewing' 'normal people' about how during the tsunami Thaksin traveled around and helped people but now during the flooding Abhisit isn't doing 'anything' for the people in duress.

It all seemed very rehearsed to me, but I am sure the propaganda works.

Edited November 21, 2010 by TAWP

[Buchholz]

It's worked very well for him for a decade, starting with the line, "he's too rich to ever be corrupt."