Tourist Visa - Second Rejection.

[JC07]

Hi All,

This post isn't involving anyone Thai, but I'm really desperate to get some advice on what to do next. I checked with one of the mods (7by7) and was kindly allowed to post this here, so any advice any of you can give would be greatly appreciated.

I'm hoping that you can give me some advice on a tourist visa application which my girlfriend recently had refused. My girlfriend is Iranian, but she's currently living in the Philippines. She applied for a visa back in October, but in hindsight the application was flimsy and she hadn't made her personal circumstances completely clear. So, after getting her first rejection, she applied again, but tried to make her personal circumstances as transparent as she could (she hadn't outlined her future movements in her initial application).

Basically she's been in the Philippines for over three years and now she's returning to Iran (at the start of December). She's due to start a job in the Iranian New Year (April 2011); unfortunately her start date has been put back to the next recruitment intake due to the current requirments of the business. Anyway, this was all explained by the MD of the company in the confirmation of employment letter. I made sure that she got the most senior person that she could to write the letter and to ensure it was written on official company paper. I wanted her to make this particular piece of evidence as robust as possible.

In terms of accomodation, I provided her with my tenancy agreement so this wasn't highlighted as a problem. As for finances, her mother was going to support her trip so provided six months worth of bank statements and also gave my girlfriend £6000 to ensure has enough money to cover her four week trip.

Despite all this, the application was rejected. I have typed out the rejection letter below.

You intend to visit your boyfriend for 4 weeks. This is your second application for the same purpose. Your first application was refused on 20/10/10. I have taken account of the enclosures with your application, however, I am not satisfied that your circumstances have changed since your previous refusal.

You claim to have recently graduated, you are neither employed or enrolled in further studies. You entered the Philippines as a tourist in March 2008 and you have extended your stay in the country and resided here since. Since entering the Philippines you have only submitted evidence of enrolment on a 1 year photography diploma from Sept 2009-2010. There is a letter from (College name edited) dated 4/11/10, however this does not confirm that you have completed the award, it only confirms that you enrolled on the short course. It is unclear how you have spent the remainder of your 2 years 8 months living in the Philippines.

You state that you have future employment arranged in Iran for April 2011 with (Company name edited) and you have provided an employment letter in support of this. There is no evidence of an employment contract or your proposed salary. I consider that in isolation this letter holds little value in confirming your future employment in Iran. You have stated that all of your ties are in Iran, however you have chosen to reside outside Iran since 2008. I have taken into account your personal circumstances, however, I am not satisfied that you genuinely intend to return to reside in Iran as claimed.

You have provided evidence of savings and assets in your mother's name in Iran. This is not direct evidence of your personal circumstances. The funds in your name in an Iranian bank account amount to £6000. It is not clear when these funds were deposited or where they were deposited because the statement only shows a one off balance on 01/11/10. I am therefore not satisfied that you have demonstrated reasonable evidence of your personal circumstances in Iran as claimed.

I note that you have submitted a copy of your mother's passport which also shows that she has spent most of her time with you in the Philippines. I am not satisfied that you have demonstrated sufficient social and economic ties and therefore that you intend to leave the UK following your visit as required by paragraphs 41 (1) and (ii).

Does this look petty to you? Isn't the immigration officer making us his own rules?! She provided an official letter from the MD of her future employers, but the immigration officer said it wasn't sufficient evidence!??! Also, he made a point about her Mum staying with her, but her Mum is now back in Iran. Surely the fact her mother stayed with her shows that they have a very close bond (thus showing a strong emotional tie to Iran).

The £6000 was to show that she has the funds and that her Mum is able and willing to provide her with the funds (plus her Mum provided evidence of her own personal finances to show that she can easily afford the £6000).

Also, I don't understand why the officer felt the need to bring up how she's spent her time in the Philippines. She DID go as a tourist, but she decided to stay there and learn English so she went through all of the official channels to get her visa extended (eventually turning it into a student visa so she could study). Even if she wanted to do the same in the UK after her visit, she would also have to go through the correct channels here. Surely this shows integrity and demonstrates she does things by the book.

I've been to the Philippines to visit her twice. We've also been to Bali and Hong Kong together (she had no problems getting a visa for HK). She's really excited about starting her job as she has been through so much trying to secure employment such as having lengthy telephone interviews and a video/web cam interview. She's also evidently very close to her mother. The immigration officer just obviously didn't see this.

After being rejected twice she really doesn't want to apply again. Will the fact that she's had two refusals affect a future application?

P.S Sorry about the long post.

[SGD]

Perhaps the moot point is that she went to the Philippines as a tourist and never left ! There seems to be no documentary evidence as to how she sustained herself for those near 3 years. She has no close ties to Iran as even her mother has spent most of the intervening time outside Iran. Iran must also be one place high up on the list of destinations from where political asylum is claimed once in the UK.

She lives in the Philippines, has not gone back to Iran for years and yet she wants to use her close ties to Iran, of which there are none, as evidence that she will indeed leave the UK. I think you she is on a hiding to nothing and to an unconnected person, poses a high risk of non departure, especially as her history shows that very same trait in the Philippines.

[VisasPlus]

There is a lot to consider here. Anything I might say here should be taken as constructive criticism. The ECO does not know your girlfriend, nor has he, as far as we know, even spoken with her. He has made a judgement on the papers submitted by your girlfriend.

The ECO sees an applicant who entered the Philippines some three years ago as a visitor. She may even have submitted an application for a visa for the Philippines in which she stated that she would leave after her short visit. Instead, she is still there. She has not, as far as we know, even returned to Iran during those three years to see her family. Now, instead of returning to Iran, on completion of her "studies", she wants to travel on to another country. The ECO is aware, although he will not say so, that many young Iranians, once outside of Iran, do not wish to return, for a variety of reasons.

She has submitted " evidence" of studies in Philippines which amount, basically, to one enrolment letter. No evidence of attendance on a course, no evidence of any qualification from the course. Furthermore, no evidence of having done anything at all for three years.

She has submitted evidence of funds, but the ECO has no evidence that the funds were not deposited ( for his benefit ) on one single day. For all he knows the funds have since been withdrawn. There is no evidence at all of an inflow and outflow of funds over a period of time.

If, as the ECO says, the circumstances of this second refusal are the same as the first, then your friend should have addressed all of these points when submitting the second application. Perhaps it is not possible to provide the required documentation ?

The ECO is faced with an applicant who is seeking a four week visit. Why four weeks ? She has nothing to go to in Iran at this time. She has produced a letter to say that she has a job in April next year. It looks like the ECO thinks she has nothing to make her leave the UK in any hurry. I'm sure that the ECO also thinks that the job offer may have been provided only to show an incentive for your friend to return to Iran, and that he is really not convinced that the job actually exists. I know he hasn't said that, but you can be sure he is thinking it. It doesn't make any difference that your friend has done everything by the book in the Philippines with regard to getting extensions of stay, etc. The ECO sees someone who entered the Philippines as a short term visitor and is still there three years later.

Unless you can address the above, and any points the ECO has made in the refusal letter, then I think your friend has a big hurdle to overcome before being granted a visa.

[JC07]

Perhaps the moot point is that she went to the Philippines as a tourist and never left ! There seems to be no documentary evidence as to how she sustained herself for those near 3 years. She has no close ties to Iran as even her mother has spent most of the intervening time outside Iran. Iran must also be one place high up on the list of destinations from where political asylum is claimed once in the UK.

She lives in the Philippines, has not gone back to Iran for years and yet she wants to use her close ties to Iran, of which there are none, as evidence that she will indeed leave the UK. I think you she is on a hiding to nothing and to an unconnected person, poses a high risk of non departure, especially as her history shows that very same trait in the Philippines.

Thanks for your reply, SGD. It's helpful having another unconnected person give an opinion on this.

The thing is, previously she never really had any ties in Iran. Her brother was also in the Philippines and her mother was able to stay with her for a considerable amount of time as they're fortunate to have a family business which was looked after by other family members.

Now, however, her Mum has had to go back to Iran to take up the running of the business again. Also, my girlfriend has been fortunate enough to have secured employment. I did think about getting her to re-apply and this time providing them with the contract of employment and making it entirely clear that her mother is now back in Iran (perhaps by providing them with a copy of the page that contains the exit stamp on her passport).

Do you think it will be better for her to return to Iran, start work, get settled there again, and then reapply? Also, how do rejection affect your chances of getting a visa in the future?

Long term, if the relationship develops and we're still together, then I'd like her to come here permanently.

[JC07]

There is a lot to consider here. Anything I might say here should be taken as constructive criticism. The ECO does not know your girlfriend, nor has he, as far as we know, even spoken with her. He has made a judgement on the papers submitted by your girlfriend.

The ECO sees an applicant who entered the Philippines some three years ago as a visitor. She may even have submitted an application for a visa for the Philippines in which she stated that she would leave after her short visit. Instead, she is still there. She has not, as far as we know, even returned to Iran during those three years to see her family. Now, instead of returning to Iran, on completion of her "studies", she wants to travel on to another country. The ECO is aware, although he will not say so, that many young Iranians, once outside of Iran, do not wish to return, for a variety of reasons.

She has submitted " evidence" of studies in Philippines which amount, basically, to one enrolment letter. No evidence of attendance on a course, no evidence of any qualification from the course. Furthermore, no evidence of having done anything at all for three years.

She has submitted evidence of funds, but the ECO has no evidence that the funds were not deposited ( for his benefit ) on one single day. For all he knows the funds have since been withdrawn. There is no evidence at all of an inflow and outflow of funds over a period of time.

If, as the ECO says, the circumstances of this second refusal are the same as the first, then your friend should have addressed all of these points when submitting the second application. Perhaps it is not possible to provide the required documentation ?

The ECO is faced with an applicant who is seeking a four week visit. Why four weeks ? She has nothing to go to in Iran at this time. She has produced a letter to say that she has a job in April next year. It looks like the ECO thinks she has nothing to make her leave the UK in any hurry. I'm sure that the ECO also thinks that the job offer may have been provided only to show an incentive for your friend to return to Iran, and that he is really not convinced that the job actually exists. I know he hasn't said that, but you can be sure he is thinking it. It doesn't make any difference that your friend has done everything by the book in the Philippines with regard to getting extensions of stay, etc. The ECO sees someone who entered the Philippines as a short term visitor and is still there three years later.

Unless you can address the above, and any points the ECO has made in the refusal letter, then I think your friend has a big hurdle to overcome before being granted a visa.

Absolutely. Constructive criticism is appreciated.

She's been back and forth to Iran. I think could certainly provide evidence of this. Her trips to Iran slowed down though once her mother was able to stay with her. She can easily supply evidence of graduation and completion of studies (this was something she didn't ensure was robust).

With regards to the funds, her mother also wrote her a letter explaining that she was willing to support her trip. She also provided evidence of her own incomings/outgoings. I guess depositing the amount she was willing to give her for the trip was a bad move.

The first refusal was because the ECO wasn't convinced she would return to the Philippines as he couldn't see any social, economic and personal ties there. Initially she didn't explain that she has no intention of going back to the Philippines now that she has completed her study. She wants to be back in Iran. She only decided to stay in PH to A) learn English and then study for a diploma in photography. Once she grasped English she then enrolled on the college course.

The four weeks is just an amount of time we both decided would be sufficient enough for a decent visit (for sightseeing etc). It has no real relevance.

She was worried about them thinking the job didn't exist which is why she had the MD of the company personally sign off the conifmation letter. The border agency website states (I think) that a letter is sufficient. I guess we should have supplied them with a copy of the contract of employment instead? (although we weren't to know this).

In the initial application there was no concern about how she's spent her three years in the Philippines. It was only on the second letter that this became an issue.

[RAZZELL]

Great advice above.

Not going to comment too much more as my mate's an ECO in Manila!

RAZZ

[JC07]

Great advice above.

Not going to comment too much more as my mate's an ECO in Manila!

RAZZ

He might have been one of the ECOs who did the rejecting.

[VisasPlus]

Okay. I think you are now seeing what you need to do to make a successful application. There are many threads on here that deal with the sort of documentation, and the background, you need to provide. You must remember that the ECO is dealing with paper. He does not know your girlfriend, nor can he believe anything you might say or write about her, for instance in a sponsorship letter, without corroborating evidence.

In any sponsorship letter that you might provide you should cover such things as the job your girlfriend is going to take up in April AND explain why she is not going into the family business. No real reason for doing this, but it provides background and gives substance to her story. It answers a question that the ECO may not even ask, but if he does then it is already there in black and white.

This whole process is about providing a history for your girlfriend, a history which can be substantiated, and a future which is mapped out. It's fine to say that sometime in the future you may marry, and may even settle eventually in the UK, but you must make it very clear, by providing as much evidence as you can, that this time it is a visit only. Your ideas are good regarding the job, documented funds, evidence of return trips to Iran. You might, however, think about how you would explain that her brother is also outside Iran with, apparently, no reason, or intention, to return there.

It's up to you whether you want to apply again now. It would indeed be better for her to get settled and employed in Iran, but the choice is yours. Good luck, whatever you decide, and if you need more advice, just shout.

[RAZZELL]

I think the OP can probably see that there are a lot of "holes" in the application that need "filling in".

Good luck with the next one!

RAZZ

[VisasPlus]

Great advice above.

Not going to comment too much more as my mate's an ECO in Manila!

RAZZ

That's a coincidence. One of my mates has just left Manila as ECO.

[JC07]

Thanks your thoughts and advice VP.

I didn't know these applications need to be so in-depth. You really do need to paint the whole picture and provide as much evidence of possible, even if you don't think it's required.

[JC07]

I think the OP can probably see that there are a lot of "holes" in the application that need "filling in".

Good luck with the next one!

RAZZ

Thanks Razz.

I've got a mountain to climb trying to convince her to apply again. She's also leaving the Philippines to return to Iran in a week, so she'd have to apply from Tehran, but I think the waiting list just for an appointment is over three months. She probably won't be able to fit in a trip before the commencement of her employment now.

[RAZZELL]

Great advice above.

Not going to comment too much more as my mate's an ECO in Manila!

RAZZ

That's a coincidence. One of my mates has just left Manila as ECO.

What's his name, does it begin with "M"? Has he gone to China?

RAZZ

[VisasPlus]

Great advice above.

Not going to comment too much more as my mate's an ECO in Manila!

RAZZ

That's a coincidence. One of my mates has just left Manila as ECO.

What's his name, does it begin with "M"? Has he gone to China?

RAZZ

And surname starts with D. I'm not sure if he has moved on to China or not.

[theoldgit]

Does anybody know for sure where MD was posted to?

[SGD]

Does anybody know for sure where MD was posted to?

He's the one been writing letters offering employment to Iranian women in the Philippines (MD = Managing Director - sorry, couldn't resist that one).

I think the situation would have been better received had the original application been lodged after she went back to Iran, but she does not show any desire to go back to Iran and even now, this supposed job has been arranged without any meeting of the prospective employer and candidate. I know she does not necessarily have to go back to Iran after a visit to the UK but she does have to leave the UK and I presume she does not have residency in the Philippines. No other country would take her and yet there seems a specific and long term show of disinterest in going back to Iran or she would simply have gone back after finishing her education in the Philippines.

You are right that you need to fill out your case but as advised, you need to address the points which were raised by the ECO in the two rejections.

At worst, you've established a timeline with the ECO that you know this woman. I don't think you have a cat in hel_l's chance of getting a visa in the current circumstances though a very full application addressing all points might be considered. I think she has to go back to Iran and re-establish links there. Perhaps one she has done so, there may be a window of opportunity just before she starts work to apply again but my guess is that until she starts this job, is firmly planted back on Iranian soil, all application will be refused.

[JC07]

Does anybody know for sure where MD was posted to?

He's the one been writing letters offering employment to Iranian women in the Philippines (MD = Managing Director - sorry, couldn't resist that one).

I think the situation would have been better received had the original application been lodged after she went back to Iran, but she does not show any desire to go back to Iran and even now, this supposed job has been arranged without any meeting of the prospective employer and candidate. I know she does not necessarily have to go back to Iran after a visit to the UK but she does have to leave the UK and I presume she does not have residency in the Philippines. No other country would take her and yet there seems a specific and long term show of disinterest in going back to Iran or she would simply have gone back after finishing her education in the Philippines.

You are right that you need to fill out your case but as advised, you need to address the points which were raised by the ECO in the two rejections.

At worst, you've established a timeline with the ECO that you know this woman. I don't think you have a cat in hel_l's chance of getting a visa in the current circumstances though a very full application addressing all points might be considered. I think she has to go back to Iran and re-establish links there. Perhaps one she has done so, there may be a window of opportunity just before she starts work to apply again but my guess is that until she starts this job, is firmly planted back on Iranian soil, all application will be refused.

That was below the belt.

Thanks for the reply again SGD.

She's recently finished her education in the Philippines. She had to learn English first before she could take on the course; once she had, she started the diploma in approximately September/October 2009 and now she's finished she's going straight back to Iran.

I appreciate all the points raised because it's shown me that you really do need to explain everything in succint detail, otherwise, in the application, the ECO has no choice but to fill in the gaps.

It's good practice for the next application (if only I could convince her to do the dam_n thing!!!)

[paully]

She's recently finished her education in the Philippines. She had to learn English first before she could take on the course; once she had, she started the diploma in approximately September/October 2009 and now she's finished she's going straight back to Iran.

One issue the ECO in Manila had was that she did not, apparently, include evidence of completing her course in the Philippines in her last visa application:

"Since entering the Philippines you have only submitted evidence of enrolment on a 1 year photography diploma from Sept 2009-2010. There is a letter from (College name edited) dated 4/11/10, however this does not confirm that you have completed the award, it only confirms that you enrolled on the short course."

Do remind her that she needs to include full details and full supporting evidence for a future visa application.