American Football

[Old Man River]

There is obviously no rule against a team scoring as many points as it can. The reasons for violating the "unwritten code" that normally limits that are, in this case, very obvious. Whether or not people would admit it, I believe that the vast majority of fans, given the competitive nature of most fans, would feel exactly the same way, if it were their favorite team in this situation. Clearly, that's a moot point; so don't bother to post denials. Just look inside yourself, with as much objectivity as you can muster, and face the truth on that point.

Oh, I get it. Make your comments and then add "so don't bother to post denials." Get real. Look inside yourself. Besides running it up on Washington, don't you remember your classes Patriots scoring a one yard TD against the Cowboys with only 19 seconds left in the game? What was that all about? At the time, the score was 41 to 27 and there were seconds left on the clock. It wasn't needed to cover a point spread and the game was already won.

Now, look within yourself. Other than to run up the score, why would the Patriots have done this? The Pats are a great team, but they are cheaters and they are classless.

[Padkapow Guy]

BROWNS @ STEELERS at 1:00 AM

Hey, PKG, did you see the schedule change? The TrueV mag lists the Bengals @ Ravens game as the first game tonight. That game has been switched by the networks to a 4:05 start. So the TrueV website now lists the Browns @ Steelers game for broadcast at 1:00 AM.

This is a real "are you for real" test for Romeo Crennel's Browns. They've surprised nearly everybody this season with their 5-3 record. However, when we look at that more carefully, it may well be a mirage. They were destroyed by the Steelers, 7-34, in the opening game in Cleveland. Their other 2 losses were at the hands of the Raiders, in Oakland, 24-26; and the Patriots, in NE, 17-34. Their 5 wins were against the Bengals, Ravens, Dolphins, Rams, and Seahawks. That's an interesting mix of the hapless (Dolphins and Rams), the hopeless (Bengals), and the disappointing (Ravens and Seahawks).

But they have certainly looked much better, offensively, since Derek Anderson replace Charlie Frye at QB. This could be interesting.

I'm planning another overnighter to watch this one; followed by the Cowboys at the Giants on TrueVisions; then the Colts at the Chargers on the internet. Could be 3 very good games, with the obvious favorites being the Steelers, Cowboys, and Colts; but all 3 underdogs having the potential to make a fight of it. Personally, I'll be rooting for the underdogs in all of these games. Wins by the Browns and Chargers would greatly improve the Patriots situation for HFA. And I hate the Jerry Jones Cowboys.

I didn't get the game but got to see the score on the ticker tape at the bottom of the screen to the Packers game. That's what sucks about not living in the burgh, I don't get to see all the games. My father said it was a real nail biter. The brownies looked like they were going to spank the steelers at first, but Big Ben pulled it out for them. As you said " It could be interesting" and it was.

Favre and the Pack beat the crap out of the vikings. (34 - 0) The pack's D took adrian Peterson out of the game. The pack even had a balanced running game. The first team to rush for over 100 yards against the vikings D this year.

I am currently watching the Chargers spank Indy. But some how I get the feeling that the colts will sqeek this one out.

PKG

[mackayae]

Great Steelers game except True did not show the first quarter. Reminded me of the Heidi Bowl. At the end of the tennis match, which was being shown in lieu of the 1st quarter, the announcer said "great match", I was fit to be tied.

[patsfangr]

There is obviously no rule against a team scoring as many points as it can. The reasons for violating the "unwritten code" that normally limits that are, in this case, very obvious. Whether or not people would admit it, I believe that the vast majority of fans, given the competitive nature of most fans, would feel exactly the same way, if it were their favorite team in this situation. Clearly, that's a moot point; so don't bother to post denials. Just look inside yourself, with as much objectivity as you can muster, and face the truth on that point.

Oh, I get it. Make your comments and then add "so don't bother to post denials." Get real. Look inside yourself. Besides running it up on Washington, don't you remember your classes Patriots scoring a one yard TD against the Cowboys with only 19 seconds left in the game? What was that all about? At the time, the score was 41 to 27 and there were seconds left on the clock. It wasn't needed to cover a point spread and the game was already won.

Now, look within yourself. Other than to run up the score, why would the Patriots have done this? The Pats are a great team, but they are cheaters and they are classless.

Just a couple of points, OMR. First, I notice that you didn't respond at all to my point regarding what I believe to be the fact that the vast majority of fans, players, coaches, and owners, would feel a similar anger, and have a similar reaction to that of the Patriots, were they fortunate enough to have a team that had accomplished what the Pats have; and then had the validity of those accomplishments challenged because they violated a rule regarding the location of a video camera. Do you disagree? Are you going to say that others in this position would NOT be angry, and would not want to shove it the face of the accusers? If you are going to say that, I think you're being extremely naive, or extremely disingenuous. But, is it ALL "running up the score"? No, it isn't.

And the issue of that final TD against the Cowboys is one example of when it wasn't. Please begin by reading the play-by-play account of the situation. With 3:45 on the clock, the Patriots led 41-27. According to my math, that's 2 scores. Have you EVER seen a team score 2 TDs in 3:45 or less? When you think about that for about 5 seconds, you should feel silly for suggesting that the Patriots should have done anything other than keep trying to score. As the 2-minute warning was sounded, the Patriots held that 41-27 lead. And ...

Two-Minute Warning

1-9-DAL 9 (1:54) K.Faulk right tackle to DAL 6 for 3 yards (M.Spears).

Timeout #3 by DAL at 01:48.

2-6-DAL 6 (1:43) K.Eckel up the middle to DAL 5 for 1 yard (C.Canty).

3-5-DAL 5 (1:09) K.Eckel left tackle to DAL 1 for 4 yards (R.Williams).

4-1-DAL 1 (:23) K.Eckel right tackle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. R28

S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-C.Hanson.

NOTE: The Cowboys called a time out following Faulk's run on 1st Down. If THEY had given up, why not let the clock run? Ever heard of a team running back a fumble for a TD; then recovering an onside kick, and scoring on one big play. How long does that take, OMR?

Now, the next 3 running plays were handoffs to Kyle Eckel. Do you know anything about him? He's a26 year-old graduate of the Naval Academy, for which BB has tremendous respect, due his childhood days there when he Dad was an assistant coach for them. Eckel had been activated, for the first time in his football career, on Oct 1. BB gave him his first carries in the NFL in the Cincinatti game that day. Eckel had 3 carries for 11 yards, just before and after the 2-minute warning. He got the Pats a 1st Down at the Bengals 43, and backup QB Cassel took kneel downs to run out the clock for the 34-13 win. (Running up the score there?) The next week, against the Browns, leading 27-17, with 3:09 remaining, BB gave Eckel 5 straight carries in the Red Zone, hoping to get him his first NFL TD. The Pats failed to score. The Browns got the ball back, the Pats caused a fumble, and ran it in for the final TD, and a 34-17 win. (Running up the score there, OMR?) Finally, we get to that Cowboys game. BB still wanted to get an NFL TD for the former Middie. So, following that Dallas time out, he gave the ball to Eckel 3 straight times, and he finally got his TD.

In other words, OMR, that particular score was not about the Patriots. It was not about the Cowboys. It was about Kyle Eckel. And it had nothing to do with running up the score.

Do you have any idea how many games with huge winning margins there have been in the NFL over the years? How many of them have been by the "poster boy", Peyton Manning, and his "oh so moral and ethical" Colts? Remember the Rams - the "Greatest Show on Turf"? how many games did they win by huge margins? Are you aware that 5 of the Colts first 7 victories were by a margin of 18 point or more? The Patriots had 6 games with winning margins of 18 or more in their first 7 victories. The Patriots greatest winning margin in those first 7 games was 31. The Colts greatest winning margin in their first 7 games was ... well, glory be ... 31!

You, and every other NFL fan who is blinded by jealousy and envy, see only what you want to see. You look for anything you can find to throw out as "proof" that the Patriots are "cheaters", or "classless". Again, take a good, long look at what the Colts have done during the Manning era. How do think he got all those records, OMR? Teams score whenever they can, unless they can literally run out the clock with kneel downs. The Kyle Eckel TD was run on 4th down, with 23 seconds on the clock. A kneel down would have given the Cowboys the ball, with those 23 seconds, and trailing by 2 TDs. "Impossible" to score 2 TDs in 23 seconds. You KNOW that's not true. So the Patriots ran a "real play"; and Kule Eckel got his NFL TD. Good for them. Good for him. Good for the Coach who gave him, rather than the 2 RBs ahead of him, Faulk or Evans, the opportunity!

I know that I'm not going to get you, or any of the commited Patriots haters to acknowledge that you've exaggerated, and, in some cases, fabricated, the "sins" they have, in your perception, commited. So be it. But at least have the "class" that you claim to value so greatly to stop throwing out accusations without checking out the facts first. That Eckel TD against the Cowboys; and that comparison of Colts to Patriots blowouts above should serve to make you recognize that you really are reaching for things in this witch hunt.

Just as an aside, it honestly reminds me of the attitude that we Americans see from all too many Euros and Asians. They resent the success, wealth, and power of the greatest country in the world; and they, too, exaggerate and fabricate reasons to accuse the USA of being some sort of "evil empire". On a much less important level, these attacks on the Patriots are the same thing.

[mauiguy90]

If they are in fact found guilty ... the rest of the member clubs are confident the league will take punitive action against it ... There's no place for it. Everybody clearly understands the rules. The competition committee's responsibility is to protect the integrity of the game. With technology the way it is right now, things could get out of hand in a matter of weeks if we don't protect the integrity of the game."

-- Jeff Fisher, Tennessee Titans

"Can it cross the line? I'm sure it can. It can give you a huge advantage."

-- Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers quarterback

"You look at that situation and go, 'How much did it help, and if it did help, in what situations and what games did it help?' Because that team has won some big games. I'm not saying that stealing signals definitely did it, because they have extremely talented players. But obviously it didn't hurt if they were doing it."

-- Michael Strahan, New York Giants defensive lineman

"Hopefully there's a harsh enough penalty that it's not worth it to try to cheat and try to get any advantage that you're not allowed to get. I hope the commissioner is just as harsh on them as he's been on individual players for making mistakes."

-- Carson Palmer, Cincinnati Bengals quarterback

"When you look back, it's scary. I think highly of their coaching staff and their personnel, but if that's the case, that's not right. I would consider it cheating."

-- Al Harris, Green Bay Packers cornerback

"What the league has to do now is monitor the number of people on the sidelines who operate cameras. I bet a few people disappear this weekend."

-- Carl Banks, former New York Giants linebacker

"I think the Patriots actually live by the saying, 'If you're not cheating, you're not trying.' They live off that statement. Nothing surprises me really. "You keep hearing the different stories about stuff that they do."

-- LaDainian Tomlinson, San Diego Chargers running back

"It's quite obvious that when you're signaling defensively, the other bench is like a guy on second base. If the pitcher or catcher is giving away signals, then he can relay things. But that's part of the game. You're not talking about having a camera set up on the center field fence that you're looking and shooting the catcher's signals and then studying that before you go play that opponent."

-- Jack Del Rio, Jacksonville Jaguars head coach

That Brett Favre, he's a real jerk. So is Carson Palmer. How would they know anything about throwing touchdowns? Jack Del Rio and Jeff Fischer are just jealous coaches who are envious of the Pat's success. So are all the rest! (Its a conspiracy...)

Let's hear from somebody more down to earth like Marcus Spears, from the Dallas Cowboys, quoted below:

So should the Patriots have to give up their Super Bowl trophies? "No, because I didn't know if they were cheating before they won the Super Bowl. They got caught after they won the Super Bowl," Spears said. "It's not cheating if you don't get caught."

Now there's a really responsible attitude...remember next time, just don't get caught!!! (Darn, so that's what the Patriot's did wrong!)

Edited November 12, 2007 by mauiguy90

[mauiguy90]

Here's something from You Tube to keep you singing and smiling:

Shady Brady and Bill Bellicheat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EU1O-hGxgg

Actually I really like Brady. However, the song is really cool!

Edited November 12, 2007 by mauiguy90

[mackayae]

Funny stuff.

[mauiguy90]

Funny stuff.

If you didn't see the Letterman link, its hilarious as well:

You Tube: Letterman on Patriots Cheating

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN0FMGuc1gs

This "Patriots Spying Video Leaked" is funny as well altho' the implications are a bit serious.

Edited November 13, 2007 by mauiguy90

[Old Man River]

There is obviously no rule against a team scoring as many points as it can. The reasons for violating the "unwritten code" that normally limits that are, in this case, very obvious. Whether or not people would admit it, I believe that the vast majority of fans, given the competitive nature of most fans, would feel exactly the same way, if it were their favorite team in this situation. Clearly, that's a moot point; so don't bother to post denials. Just look inside yourself, with as much objectivity as you can muster, and face the truth on that point.

Oh, I get it. Make your comments and then add "so don't bother to post denials." Get real. Look inside yourself. Besides running it up on Washington, don't you remember your classes Patriots scoring a one yard TD against the Cowboys with only 19 seconds left in the game? What was that all about? At the time, the score was 41 to 27 and there were seconds left on the clock. It wasn't needed to cover a point spread and the game was already won.

Now, look within yourself. Other than to run up the score, why would the Patriots have done this? The Pats are a great team, but they are cheaters and they are classless.

Just a couple of points, OMR. First, I notice that you didn't respond at all to my point regarding what I believe to be the fact that the vast majority of fans, players, coaches, and owners, would feel a similar anger, and have a similar reaction to that of the Patriots, were they fortunate enough to have a team that had accomplished what the Pats have; and then had the validity of those accomplishments challenged because they violated a rule regarding the location of a video camera. Do you disagree? Are you going to say that others in this position would NOT be angry, and would not want to shove it the face of the accusers? If you are going to say that, I think you're being extremely naive, or extremely disingenuous. But, is it ALL "running up the score"? No, it isn't.

And the issue of that final TD against the Cowboys is one example of when it wasn't. Please begin by reading the play-by-play account of the situation. With 3:45 on the clock, the Patriots led 41-27. According to my math, that's 2 scores. Have you EVER seen a team score 2 TDs in 3:45 or less? When you think about that for about 5 seconds, you should feel silly for suggesting that the Patriots should have done anything other than keep trying to score. As the 2-minute warning was sounded, the Patriots held that 41-27 lead. And ...

Two-Minute Warning

1-9-DAL 9 (1:54) K.Faulk right tackle to DAL 6 for 3 yards (M.Spears).

Timeout #3 by DAL at 01:48.

2-6-DAL 6 (1:43) K.Eckel up the middle to DAL 5 for 1 yard (C.Canty).

3-5-DAL 5 (1:09) K.Eckel left tackle to DAL 1 for 4 yards (R.Williams).

4-1-DAL 1 (:23) K.Eckel right tackle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. R28

S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-C.Hanson.

NOTE: The Cowboys called a time out following Faulk's run on 1st Down. If THEY had given up, why not let the clock run? Ever heard of a team running back a fumble for a TD; then recovering an onside kick, and scoring on one big play. How long does that take, OMR?

Now, the next 3 running plays were handoffs to Kyle Eckel. Do you know anything about him? He's a26 year-old graduate of the Naval Academy, for which BB has tremendous respect, due his childhood days there when he Dad was an assistant coach for them. Eckel had been activated, for the first time in his football career, on Oct 1. BB gave him his first carries in the NFL in the Cincinatti game that day. Eckel had 3 carries for 11 yards, just before and after the 2-minute warning. He got the Pats a 1st Down at the Bengals 43, and backup QB Cassel took kneel downs to run out the clock for the 34-13 win. (Running up the score there?) The next week, against the Browns, leading 27-17, with 3:09 remaining, BB gave Eckel 5 straight carries in the Red Zone, hoping to get him his first NFL TD. The Pats failed to score. The Browns got the ball back, the Pats caused a fumble, and ran it in for the final TD, and a 34-17 win. (Running up the score there, OMR?) Finally, we get to that Cowboys game. BB still wanted to get an NFL TD for the former Middie. So, following that Dallas time out, he gave the ball to Eckel 3 straight times, and he finally got his TD.

In other words, OMR, that particular score was not about the Patriots. It was not about the Cowboys. It was about Kyle Eckel. And it had nothing to do with running up the score.

Do you have any idea how many games with huge winning margins there have been in the NFL over the years? How many of them have been by the "poster boy", Peyton Manning, and his "oh so moral and ethical" Colts? Remember the Rams - the "Greatest Show on Turf"? how many games did they win by huge margins? Are you aware that 5 of the Colts first 7 victories were by a margin of 18 point or more? The Patriots had 6 games with winning margins of 18 or more in their first 7 victories. The Patriots greatest winning margin in those first 7 games was 31. The Colts greatest winning margin in their first 7 games was ... well, glory be ... 31!

You, and every other NFL fan who is blinded by jealousy and envy, see only what you want to see. You look for anything you can find to throw out as "proof" that the Patriots are "cheaters", or "classless". Again, take a good, long look at what the Colts have done during the Manning era. How do think he got all those records, OMR? Teams score whenever they can, unless they can literally run out the clock with kneel downs. The Kyle Eckel TD was run on 4th down, with 23 seconds on the clock. A kneel down would have given the Cowboys the ball, with those 23 seconds, and trailing by 2 TDs. "Impossible" to score 2 TDs in 23 seconds. You KNOW that's not true. So the Patriots ran a "real play"; and Kule Eckel got his NFL TD. Good for them. Good for him. Good for the Coach who gave him, rather than the 2 RBs ahead of him, Faulk or Evans, the opportunity!

I know that I'm not going to get you, or any of the commited Patriots haters to acknowledge that you've exaggerated, and, in some cases, fabricated, the "sins" they have, in your perception, commited. So be it. But at least have the "class" that you claim to value so greatly to stop throwing out accusations without checking out the facts first. That Eckel TD against the Cowboys; and that comparison of Colts to Patriots blowouts above should serve to make you recognize that you really are reaching for things in this witch hunt.

Just as an aside, it honestly reminds me of the attitude that we Americans see from all too many Euros and Asians. They resent the success, wealth, and power of the greatest country in the world; and they, too, exaggerate and fabricate reasons to accuse the USA of being some sort of "evil empire". On a much less important level, these attacks on the Patriots are the same thing.

Wow, such conclusions on a discussion about some football games! I must have struck a nerve. Sorry I offended you, not meant.

Some quick comments: Yes, of course any team would be mad, I didn't think this was necessary to comment on. However, if accused of cheating go about your business; there was no need to resort to school yard tactics. Did you see Belicheck snub Dungey after the Colt game? Bush league school yard. A pro team's head coach should have more class than this.

On the Cowboy game, Belichick should have had Brady take a knee when the clock was winding down. Most teams do this.

[CalicoConsulting]

"Naked butt and rectum" threw six interceptions. Uh oh, Peyton's turning into Eli...

[Old Man River]

There is obviously no rule against a team scoring as many points as it can. The reasons for violating the "unwritten code" that normally limits that are, in this case, very obvious. Whether or not people would admit it, I believe that the vast majority of fans, given the competitive nature of most fans, would feel exactly the same way, if it were their favorite team in this situation. Clearly, that's a moot point; so don't bother to post denials. Just look inside yourself, with as much objectivity as you can muster, and face the truth on that point.

Oh, I get it. Make your comments and then add "so don't bother to post denials." Get real. Look inside yourself. Besides running it up on Washington, don't you remember your classes Patriots scoring a one yard TD against the Cowboys with only 19 seconds left in the game? What was that all about? At the time, the score was 41 to 27 and there were seconds left on the clock. It wasn't needed to cover a point spread and the game was already won.

Now, look within yourself. Other than to run up the score, why would the Patriots have done this? The Pats are a great team, but they are cheaters and they are classless.

Just a couple of points, OMR. First, I notice that you didn't respond at all to my point regarding what I believe to be the fact that the vast majority of fans, players, coaches, and owners, would feel a similar anger, and have a similar reaction to that of the Patriots, were they fortunate enough to have a team that had accomplished what the Pats have; and then had the validity of those accomplishments challenged because they violated a rule regarding the location of a video camera. Do you disagree? Are you going to say that others in this position would NOT be angry, and would not want to shove it the face of the accusers? If you are going to say that, I think you're being extremely naive, or extremely disingenuous. But, is it ALL "running up the score"? No, it isn't.

And the issue of that final TD against the Cowboys is one example of when it wasn't. Please begin by reading the play-by-play account of the situation. With 3:45 on the clock, the Patriots led 41-27. According to my math, that's 2 scores. Have you EVER seen a team score 2 TDs in 3:45 or less? When you think about that for about 5 seconds, you should feel silly for suggesting that the Patriots should have done anything other than keep trying to score. As the 2-minute warning was sounded, the Patriots held that 41-27 lead. And ...

Two-Minute Warning

1-9-DAL 9 (1:54) K.Faulk right tackle to DAL 6 for 3 yards (M.Spears).

Timeout #3 by DAL at 01:48.

2-6-DAL 6 (1:43) K.Eckel up the middle to DAL 5 for 1 yard (C.Canty).

3-5-DAL 5 (1:09) K.Eckel left tackle to DAL 1 for 4 yards (R.Williams).

4-1-DAL 1 (:23) K.Eckel right tackle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. R28

S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-C.Hanson.

NOTE: The Cowboys called a time out following Faulk's run on 1st Down. If THEY had given up, why not let the clock run? Ever heard of a team running back a fumble for a TD; then recovering an onside kick, and scoring on one big play. How long does that take, OMR?

Now, the next 3 running plays were handoffs to Kyle Eckel. Do you know anything about him? He's a26 year-old graduate of the Naval Academy, for which BB has tremendous respect, due his childhood days there when he Dad was an assistant coach for them. Eckel had been activated, for the first time in his football career, on Oct 1. BB gave him his first carries in the NFL in the Cincinatti game that day. Eckel had 3 carries for 11 yards, just before and after the 2-minute warning. He got the Pats a 1st Down at the Bengals 43, and backup QB Cassel took kneel downs to run out the clock for the 34-13 win. (Running up the score there?) The next week, against the Browns, leading 27-17, with 3:09 remaining, BB gave Eckel 5 straight carries in the Red Zone, hoping to get him his first NFL TD. The Pats failed to score. The Browns got the ball back, the Pats caused a fumble, and ran it in for the final TD, and a 34-17 win. (Running up the score there, OMR?) Finally, we get to that Cowboys game. BB still wanted to get an NFL TD for the former Middie. So, following that Dallas time out, he gave the ball to Eckel 3 straight times, and he finally got his TD.

In other words, OMR, that particular score was not about the Patriots. It was not about the Cowboys. It was about Kyle Eckel. And it had nothing to do with running up the score.

Do you have any idea how many games with huge winning margins there have been in the NFL over the years? How many of them have been by the "poster boy", Peyton Manning, and his "oh so moral and ethical" Colts? Remember the Rams - the "Greatest Show on Turf"? how many games did they win by huge margins? Are you aware that 5 of the Colts first 7 victories were by a margin of 18 point or more? The Patriots had 6 games with winning margins of 18 or more in their first 7 victories. The Patriots greatest winning margin in those first 7 games was 31. The Colts greatest winning margin in their first 7 games was ... well, glory be ... 31!

You, and every other NFL fan who is blinded by jealousy and envy, see only what you want to see. You look for anything you can find to throw out as "proof" that the Patriots are "cheaters", or "classless". Again, take a good, long look at what the Colts have done during the Manning era. How do think he got all those records, OMR? Teams score whenever they can, unless they can literally run out the clock with kneel downs. The Kyle Eckel TD was run on 4th down, with 23 seconds on the clock. A kneel down would have given the Cowboys the ball, with those 23 seconds, and trailing by 2 TDs. "Impossible" to score 2 TDs in 23 seconds. You KNOW that's not true. So the Patriots ran a "real play"; and Kule Eckel got his NFL TD. Good for them. Good for him. Good for the Coach who gave him, rather than the 2 RBs ahead of him, Faulk or Evans, the opportunity!

I know that I'm not going to get you, or any of the commited Patriots haters to acknowledge that you've exaggerated, and, in some cases, fabricated, the "sins" they have, in your perception, commited. So be it. But at least have the "class" that you claim to value so greatly to stop throwing out accusations without checking out the facts first. That Eckel TD against the Cowboys; and that comparison of Colts to Patriots blowouts above should serve to make you recognize that you really are reaching for things in this witch hunt.

Just as an aside, it honestly reminds me of the attitude that we Americans see from all too many Euros and Asians. They resent the success, wealth, and power of the greatest country in the world; and they, too, exaggerate and fabricate reasons to accuse the USA of being some sort of "evil empire". On a much less important level, these attacks on the Patriots are the same thing.

Wow, such conclusions on a discussion about some football games! I must have struck a nerve. Sorry I offended you, not meant.

Some quick comments: Yes, of course any team would be mad, I didn't think this was necessary to comment on. However, if accused of cheating go about your business; there was no need to resort to school yard tactics. Did you see Belicheck snub Dungey after the Colt game? Bush league school yard. A pro team's head coach should have more class than this.

On the Cowboy game, Belichick should have had Brady take a knee when the clock was winding down. Most teams do this.

Patsfangr, as an addendum to the above, I do want you to understand that from my perspective neither the players nor assistant coaches have done anything wrong. They are employees. However, while Belichick may well be the best coach in the NFL, he did cheat and he does run up the score. These are his decisions alone. Being in such a public position, he should be a better example to those who look up to him.

When Switzer was in Dallas, there were a lot of die hard Cowboy fans (myself included) that were saying roughly the same things that are being said about Belichick. Sometimes it isn't all about winning.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Old Man River

[mauiguy90]

ESPN Poll: Was the NFL's punishment of NE fair?

Take the poll yourself and compare with the overall results below.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation...g?event_id=3147

1) What is your reaction to the Patriots' punishment?

60.1%Too lenient

22.5%Just right

17.4%Too harsh

2) Should the Patriots' draft pick(s) be given to the Jets?

77.0%No

23.0%Yes

3) Would the Patriots have beaten the Jets without the videotape assistance?

58.7%Yes

27.9%Yes, but it would have been closer

13.4%No

4) Did Jets head coach Eric Mangini break an unwritten rule by tattling on his former team?

75.8%No, the Patriots are his competition and he had no allegiances

24.2%Yes, he should not have given up the Patriots' secrets

5) How widespread do you believe in-game videotaping in the NFL to be?

43.0%A few teams do it

24.0%Most teams do it

22.5%Only the Patriots do it

10.5%All teams do it

6) The NFL Competition Committee is considering a resolution that would allow a radio receiver in the helmet of one defensive player. Should teams vote to pass this resolution?

80.0%Yes

20.0%No

7) Considering Goodell's handling of Pacman Jones, Michael Vick, steroids and now the Patriots, how would you grade the job he has done as commissioner?

40.6%B

36.8%A

14.3%C

4.2%F

4.1%D

8) Will the Patriots make the playoffs and thus have to give up a first round draft pick?

88.8%Yes

11.2%No

Total Votes: 66,586

P.S. Highlighted answers are what I thought a true Patriots fan would answer.

Edited November 13, 2007 by mauiguy90

[patsfangr]

Patsfangr, as an addendum to the above, I do want you to understand that from my perspective neither the players nor assistant coaches have done anything wrong. They are employees. However, while Belichick may well be the best coach in the NFL, he did cheat and he does run up the score. These are his decisions alone. Being in such a public position, he should be a better example to those who look up to him.

When Switzer was in Dallas, there were a lot of die hard Cowboy fans (myself included) that were saying roughly the same things that are being said about Belichick. Sometimes it isn't all about winning.

Fair enough, OMR. Based upon everything you've posted in this entire NFL thread, it's obvious to me that you are an experienced, knowledgeable NFL fan; with as much objectivity as most fans can muster. I would only note that you should accept the fact that the vast majority of the media outside of New England only prints, reads, or shows things about the Patriots, and Belichick, that are unfavorable toward them. They do so partly because most of them also have a bias toward their own teams, and, therefore a prejudice against the Patriots. They are, after all, fans themselves. In addition, the media everywhere makes its' money on controversy. The more of it there is, or the more of it they can create, the better they like it.

So just keep that in mind when you see or read things about Belichick and his team. There is a great deal about him that isn't public knowledge. And, in fact, the press in New England isn't totally in his corner, because he's not open with most of them. He definitely believes in "secrecy", to the point of paranoia. That, I hope you realize, came from working with Parcells for so many years. Parcells, I know you'll recall, was the master of "secrecy".

Belichick is not evil incarnate. He's a great football strategist, tactitian, and teacher; who also happens to be paranoid about keeping things about his team hidden from everyone outside the team. As a result, he has few friends in the media, and has a negative image to those outside his own team's fan base. Not excuses. Just reality. He does not "cheat". He uses every means at his disposal to give his team an advantage, as have most successful coaches in the history of the game. And many of them, including Parcells, have admitted as much. They lie about injuries between games. They have players fake injuries during games to get a needed time out. They falsely put players on Injured Reserve to "hide" them for the next season. They "steal" signals, in whatever way they can. (Again, admitted by several current and past NFL coaches.) The Denver Broncos have been accused for years of actually teaching dangerous and illegal blocking tactics to their OL. On the field, QBs will intentionally throw the ball away to avoid a sack, and try to lie their way out of it. Offensive and defensive players constantly hold, and try not to get caught. All of these things are "cheating", OMR.

The bottom line remains that the majority of games are decided by the relative coaching and playing skills of the principles on each team. That's what has decided the majority of the Patriots games, including their 3 Super Bowl wins. It is ludicrous for people to question that fact.

[patsfangr]

OK, mauiguy, here are the actual responses of a "true Patriots fan". (I think I fit that description after 47 years as a Patriots fan!) :-)

ESPN Poll: Was the NFL's punishment of NE fair?

Take the poll yourself and compare with the overall results below.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation...g?event_id=3147

1) What is your reaction to the Patriots' punishment?

60.1%Too lenient

22.5%Just right

17.4%Too harsh

*** Too harsh. Why? Because the rule violation was, according to all sources, the sole decision of the Head Coach. The punishment, therefore, should have been solely on the Head Coach. Punishing the team with the loss of a draft pick potentially punishes the team for years to come. The fine on Belichick was appropriate. And I, personally, would not have objected to a suspension of a game or two against him for that rule violoation.

2) Should the Patriots' draft pick(s) be given to the Jets?

77.0%No

23.0%Yes

*** What a ludicrous question. Not even worthy of an answer. The majority clearly agree.

3) Would the Patriots have beaten the Jets without the videotape assistance?

58.7%Yes

27.9%Yes, but it would have been closer

13.4%No

*** Yes. The camera and tape were confiscated during the 1st Quarter. Helloooo!

4) Did Jets head coach Eric Mangini break an unwritten rule by tattling on his former team?

75.8%No, the Patriots are his competition and he had no allegiances

24.2%Yes, he should not have given up the Patriots' secrets

*** Yes. He DID break an "unwritten rule" by ratting out a fellow coach, who also happens to have been his mentor, and the man who gave him the opportunity to become a Head Coach in the NFL. Is that "wrong"? How long is the list of "unwritten rules" in all areas of life that are "wrong"? Cops don't rat on cops. Doctors don't rat on doctors. Etc., etc.. Many current and former coaches and players have acknowledged that various forms of rules violations are, and always have been, common throughout much of the NFL. So are injuries. So is bad weather. So is the "mile high" thin air in Denver. It will be most interesting to see how Mangini's career proceeds, should he ever leave the Jets. ;-)

5) How widespread do you believe in-game videotaping in the NFL to be?

43.0%A few teams do it

24.0%Most teams do it

22.5%Only the Patriots do it

10.5%All teams do it

No answer to this one from me. I don't know. Neither does anyone else who is not in the NFL community. But isn't it interesting to note that 77.5% of the respondents seem to think that the Patriots are NOT the "devil", standing alone in violating rules.

6) The NFL Competition Committee is considering a resolution that would allow a radio receiver in the helmet of one defensive player. Should teams vote to pass this resolution?

80.0%Yes

20.0%No

No. The reason is because it would be too difficult to control. Defenses change the players on the field constantly throughout a game. Offenses, of course, are always directed by the QB on the field. It just wouldn't work.

7) Considering Goodell's handling of Pacman Jones, Michael Vick, steroids and now the Patriots, how would you grade the job he has done as commissioner?

40.6%B

36.8%A

14.3%C

4.2%F

4.1%D

It's an F. The man put himself in a very bad position with this "videogate" thing. Why do you think it's been pushed under the rug by the league office since it happened? As I noted earlier, there are many ways in which teams violate league rules in trying to "gain a competitive advantage". Goodell opened a HUGE can of worms when he raised this issue. They now realize that this is a MUCH different, and potentially more damaging, issue for "the game" than punishing individuals for off field conduct violations.

8) Will the Patriots make the playoffs and thus have to give up a first round draft pick?

88.8%Yes

11.2%No

*** Umm ... Yes. When was this poll conducted? Regardless of one's opinion on "videogate", or Bill Belichick, or any other aspect of the Patriots, it's virtually impossible for the Patriots to fail to make the playoffs this year.

Total Votes: 66,586

P.S. Highlighted answers are what I thought a true Patriots fan would answer.

So, you were 6 for 8 with me, mauiguy. And it's also interesting to note that 3 of the questions (2, 3, and 5) had responses that tend to side with the Patriots. I also have to add that I don't know what question #6 is doing here, since it has nothing to do with this issue; and that question #8 is ridiculous, unless this poll was conducted several weeks ago.

[patsfangr]

I want to add one more significant comment to one of the questions in that poll. Question #4:

4) Did Jets head coach Eric Mangini break an unwritten rule by tattling on his former team?

75.8%No, the Patriots are his competition and he had no allegiances

24.2%Yes, he should not have given up the Patriots' secrets

*** Yes. He DID break an "unwritten rule" by ratting out a fellow coach, who also happens to have been his mentor, and the man who gave him the opportunity to become a Head Coach in the NFL. Is that "wrong"? How long is the list of "unwritten rules" in all areas of life that are "wrong"? Cops don't rat on cops. Doctors don't rat on doctors. Etc., etc.. Many current and former coaches and players have acknowledged that various forms of rules violations are, and always have been, common throughout much of the NFL. So are injuries. So is bad weather. So is the "mile high" thin air in Denver. It will be most interesting to see how Mangini's career proceeds, should he ever leave the Jets. ;-)

What I want to add is that the question does NOT ask whether or not it was "morally or ethically correct" for Mangini to do what he did. It asks whether or not he broke "an unwritten rule". We each have our own opinions about the morality and ethics involved in this, and other "unwritten rules", such as those I noted earlier. I think that many of the people who responded to the question came at it from that angle, rather than an honest answer to whether or not such an "unwritten rule" exists in the NFL. There's a VERY distinct difference in those two aspects of the issue. I seriously doubt that, if the this had been presented as a general question, rather than specific to "videogate", most fans would say that "unwritten rules of silence" do not exist among NFL coaches, or cops, or doctors, etc. If they wanted to ask whether fans thought Mangini was right in ratting out Belichick, they should have asked that question. The answer to the question they asked is clearly a YES, to anyone with a brain.

[Old Man River]

Patsfangr, as an addendum to the above, I do want you to understand that from my perspective neither the players nor assistant coaches have done anything wrong. They are employees. However, while Belichick may well be the best coach in the NFL, he did cheat and he does run up the score. These are his decisions alone. Being in such a public position, he should be a better example to those who look up to him.

When Switzer was in Dallas, there were a lot of die hard Cowboy fans (myself included) that were saying roughly the same things that are being said about Belichick. Sometimes it isn't all about winning.

Fair enough, OMR. Based upon everything you've posted in this entire NFL thread, it's obvious to me that you are an experienced, knowledgeable NFL fan; with as much objectivity as most fans can muster. I would only note that you should accept the fact that the vast majority of the media outside of New England only prints, reads, or shows things about the Patriots, and Belichick, that are unfavorable toward them. They do so partly because most of them also have a bias toward their own teams, and, therefore a prejudice against the Patriots. They are, after all, fans themselves. In addition, the media everywhere makes its' money on controversy. The more of it there is, or the more of it they can create, the better they like it.

So just keep that in mind when you see or read things about Belichick and his team. There is a great deal about him that isn't public knowledge. And, in fact, the press in New England isn't totally in his corner, because he's not open with most of them. He definitely believes in "secrecy", to the point of paranoia. That, I hope you realize, came from working with Parcells for so many years. Parcells, I know you'll recall, was the master of "secrecy".

Belichick is not evil incarnate. He's a great football strategist, tactitian, and teacher; who also happens to be paranoid about keeping things about his team hidden from everyone outside the team. As a result, he has few friends in the media, and has a negative image to those outside his own team's fan base. Not excuses. Just reality. He does not "cheat". He uses every means at his disposal to give his team an advantage, as have most successful coaches in the history of the game. And many of them, including Parcells, have admitted as much. They lie about injuries between games. They have players fake injuries during games to get a needed time out. They falsely put players on Injured Reserve to "hide" them for the next season. They "steal" signals, in whatever way they can. (Again, admitted by several current and past NFL coaches.) The Denver Broncos have been accused for years of actually teaching dangerous and illegal blocking tactics to their OL. On the field, QBs will intentionally throw the ball away to avoid a sack, and try to lie their way out of it. Offensive and defensive players constantly hold, and try not to get caught. All of these things are "cheating", OMR.

The bottom line remains that the majority of games are decided by the relative coaching and playing skills of the principles on each team. That's what has decided the majority of the Patriots games, including their 3 Super Bowl wins. It is ludicrous for people to question that fact.

I guess the only thing we disagree with is whether Belichick cheated or not. Since he was caught red handed and the league office has adjudged the same, I will go with them and say he cheated.

[mauiguy90]

So, you were 6 for 8 with me, mauiguy. And it's also interesting to note that 3 of the questions (2, 3, and 5) had responses that tend to side with the Patriots. I also have to add that I don't know what question #6 is doing here, since it has nothing to do with this issue; and that question #8 is ridiculous, unless this poll was conducted several weeks ago.

Actually I will count this as 6 out of 7 since you chose not to answer one of the questions. By the way, this poll was conducted by ESPN with over 65,000 people responding. I agree question 8 sounds stupid now, but this poll was probably written in September.

Question #6 regarding the use of using a radio to communicate with the defense, is something that confused me as well, when I first heard about it. It is actually a very relevant question since using such equipment would reduce or totally make the use of defensive coaching signals unnecessary. Issues such as "cheating" by video taping defensive signals would no longer occur. Consequently, cheating in this fashion would be obsolete. The use of equipment to communicate with the defense in this manner was voted on and defeated by two votes last season. Ironically, if such equipment were used this season, this scandal with the Patriots would not have happened. (Of course, cheating by intercepting radio signals could also be done. Then again, if teams/coaches want to to cheat, what can you do? )

Backtracking to question #1, I appreciate that you are open to admitting that Belichick is responsible for the "infraction" and possibly should have received further punishment.

I would also like you to notice that 82.6% of the respondents felt that the punishment was either too lenient or sufficient. Apparently, the respondents believed the Patriots committed a very serious "infraction" (i.e. they cheated).

Edited November 14, 2007 by mauiguy90

[mauiguy90]

I want to add one more significant comment to one of the questions in that poll. Question #4:

4) Did Jets head coach Eric Mangini break an unwritten rule by tattling on his former team?

75.8%No, the Patriots are his competition and he had no allegiances

24.2%Yes, he should not have given up the Patriots' secrets

*** Yes. He DID break an "unwritten rule" by ratting out a fellow coach, who also happens to have been his mentor, and the man who gave him the opportunity to become a Head Coach in the NFL. Is that "wrong"? How long is the list of "unwritten rules" in all areas of life that are "wrong"? ...It will be most interesting to see how Mangini's career proceeds, should he ever leave the Jets. ;-)

... If they wanted to ask whether fans thought Mangini was right in ratting out Belichick, they should have asked that question. The answer to the question they asked is clearly a YES, to anyone with a brain.

Very generous of you to say that Mangini was right in "ratting out Belichick... You and I, and probably thousands of others question why he would want/need to do this against the Jets...

I am including segments from a link about the seizure of the Jets-Patriots tape, which includes information about when the tape was actually confiscated and how it happened...

Eric Mangini exposes Bill Belichick's spy games

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...py.html?ref=rss

Matt Estrella, 26, a Patriots video assistant, was nabbed just before halftime of the Jets' 38-14 loss on opening day. He allegedly videotaped hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline, defying an edict from Goodell, who warned teams before the season that he wouldn't tolerate cheating. Several teams have suspected the Patriots of stealing signs. So did the Jets, thanks to Mangini.

"(The Jets) knew they did it," the person with knowledge of the situation said in an e-mail to the Daily News. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be (ticked) at Eric. He kissed and told."

Mangini, hired last year by the Jets, coached under Belichick from 2000 to 2005 in New England. Their once-close relationship has frayed, and this latest chapter in the Border War has raised the hostility to all-time levels.

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

It's unclear if the Patriots had a chance to review the tape before it was seized, raising the question of whether it helped them in the game. They certainly played like they knew the Jets' strategy. In the second half, Tom Brady completed 10 of 11 passes for 138 yards and a touchdown.

"He seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said.

No video recording devices of any kind are permitted on the field, in the locker room or in the coaches' booth during a game, according to league rules.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft said yesterday it would be inappropriate to comment directly on the accusations, but he hinted that the Jets' actions may have stemmed from being envious of his team's success.

Edited November 14, 2007 by mauiguy90

[patsfangr]

I want to add one more significant comment to one of the questions in that poll. Question #4:

4) Did Jets head coach Eric Mangini break an unwritten rule by tattling on his former team?

75.8%No, the Patriots are his competition and he had no allegiances

24.2%Yes, he should not have given up the Patriots' secrets

*** Yes. He DID break an "unwritten rule" by ratting out a fellow coach, who also happens to have been his mentor, and the man who gave him the opportunity to become a Head Coach in the NFL. Is that "wrong"? How long is the list of "unwritten rules" in all areas of life that are "wrong"? ...It will be most interesting to see how Mangini's career proceeds, should he ever leave the Jets. ;-)

... If they wanted to ask whether fans thought Mangini was right in ratting out Belichick, they should have asked that question. The answer to the question they asked is clearly a YES, to anyone with a brain.

Very generous of you to say that Mangini was right in "ratting out Belichick... You and I, and probably thousands of others question why he would want/need to do this against the Jets...

I am including segments from a link about the seizure of the Jets-Patriots tape, which includes information about when the tape was actually confiscated and how it happened...

Eric Mangini exposes Bill Belichick's spy games

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...py.html?ref=rss

Matt Estrella, 26, a Patriots video assistant, was nabbed just before halftime of the Jets' 38-14 loss on opening day. He allegedly videotaped hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline, defying an edict from Goodell, who warned teams before the season that he wouldn't tolerate cheating. Several teams have suspected the Patriots of stealing signs. So did the Jets, thanks to Mangini.

"(The Jets) knew they did it," the person with knowledge of the situation said in an e-mail to the Daily News. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be (ticked) at Eric. He kissed and told."

Mangini, hired last year by the Jets, coached under Belichick from 2000 to 2005 in New England. Their once-close relationship has frayed, and this latest chapter in the Border War has raised the hostility to all-time levels.

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

It's unclear if the Patriots had a chance to review the tape before it was seized, raising the question of whether it helped them in the game. They certainly played like they knew the Jets' strategy. In the second half, Tom Brady completed 10 of 11 passes for 138 yards and a touchdown.

"He seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said.

No video recording devices of any kind are permitted on the field, in the locker room or in the coaches' booth during a game, according to league rules.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft said yesterday it would be inappropriate to comment directly on the accusations, but he hinted that the Jets' actions may have stemmed from being envious of his team's success.

Every detail must be true. It was in the New York Daily News. Just as reliable as the Wall Street Journal, aren't they?

It is REALLY difficult to keep from falling off my chair laughing at this stuff. Have you SEEN the New York Jets this year? They are 1-8, for crissake! They be lucky to beat Columbia on a good day! I guess, perhaps with invisible men stealing signals, those other 7 teams "knew what you were doing" too, huh, Kerry? It's too bad the Jets don't know what they're doing!

The Patriots beat the Jets because the Jets suck, and the Patriots are very, very good. Jets 1-8. Patriots 9-0. End of story!! To suggest that anything other than those two, indisputable facts contributed to the ultimate result of this game is utterly ridiculous.

[mauiguy90]

Very generous of you to say that Mangini was right in "ratting out Belichick... You and I, and probably thousands of others question why he would want/need to do this against the Jets...

It is REALLY difficult to keep from falling off my chair laughing at this stuff. Have you SEEN the New York Jets this year? They are 1-8, for crissake!

You must have fallen off your chair and hit your head when you laughing since you failed to answer the question: Why did Belichick want/need to cheat against the Jets? Why?

Edited November 15, 2007 by mauiguy90

[mauiguy90]

Of course, you have a history of not answering my questions...

"A. The Patriots accomplishments are "tainted" by the videotaping of signals from an restricted area of the stadium .....and very little is actually gained by it in a game. "

"...Bill Belichick, for reasons known only to him, defied the NFL rule against taping defensive signals from the field. "

My point is, so why do it then?...

To win maybe???

B. It is a natural human, or at least, American, instinct to want to see the top guy brought down, unless you're personally attached, in some way.

My point is, you are personally attached, in a large way. I don't think that anyone could convince you that what they did was wrong, was cheating and gave them an unfair advantage over other teams.

My question is, what would it take?

Somehow, after this post, you decided to switch the subject... Guess its okay to avoid my questions...After all, its something he (Belicheat) would do!

P.S. Its ok to switch the subject again like you did the last time!

You should watch what your comments about NY. You've already said enough about the Jets, now you dis' their newspapers...What next?

Edited November 15, 2007 by mauiguy90

[patsfangr]

SIGH! Mauiguy, I went over the issue of Belichick's "technique" for stealing signals many times, since this thing happened. It has been alleged by just about as many people as have damned Belichick for it, that other teams have done the same thing; and/or, that other teams use other techniques to accomplish the same thinge.

Now, why did he do it? I have no idea why he considered this a valuable tool in his process. Only he can answer that question. Every coach in the league has certain things he does to prepare for games, or to prepare for specific teams. You'd have to ask them why they do so. Why do coaches use different drills, and different teaching techniques in training camp and practice? I don't know. They all have their own methods for preparing their teams for games.

Trying to identify signals used by the opposing team, whether from the bench to the defense, or from the QB to his offense, is always - I repeat - ALWAYS a part of that preparation. It is no different from the techiques used in baseball for teams to identify certain motions that a pitcher makes that will tip off his next pitch; or the signals given by managers and coaches to order an attempt to steal a base, or bunt, etc. etc. In any sport you can name: from water polo and lacrosse, to boxing, (real) wrestling, soccer, baseball, basketball, hockey, and football; coaches and players study the opponent as part of their preparation for the game. They try to anticipate what the opponent may do, AND how the opponent may tip off their next move. It is part of the preparation for any competition, both in and out of the sports world, from poker to war.

How many times have you seen or heard discussion of teams picking up a certain motion by a QB, such as positioning his foot a certain way, or how he holds his hands under Center, or where he looks just before the snap; to predict the upcoming play? Teams attempt to steal signals all the time. The league does nothing about it. Belichick was doing it in a manner specifically prohibitted by the league. That is a clear rule violation, and he was properly punished for doing so. (The team, as I noted earlier, was, IMO, excessively punished for an act that has been acknowledged as his decision alone.)

I said before, and I say again, that I do not consider what he did to be "cheating". I consider it to have been a rule violation, since he was using a prohibitted method to gather information that every team in the NFL attempts to gather and use, in one way or another, the most common method being a coach in the press box with binoculars on the opponents bench, who is relaying those signals to his bench in "real time". It is NOT a big deal; as has been said by countless number of people who know the game much better than you, me, or the bonehead reporters who keep playing this "story" for all it's worth.

The Patriots have not done it since that game. They are 8-0 since that game, having defeated at least 6 teams that are much, much better than the Jets. Drop it, will you please. Let's try to focus on the game of football, and stop this idiotic witch hunt of the "evil" Bill Belichick.

[Old Man River]

Game time switches (to accommodate FOX) for games on Sunday Nov. 18th are:

Steelers - Jets will now begin at 4:15 AM (Bangkok time)

Cowboys - Redskins will now began at 4:15 AM (Bangkok time), and

Giants - Lions will now began at 1AM (Bangkok time).

Based on these new starting times, does anyone know what games will be televised via True on Monday AM?

[mauiguy90]

Now, why did he do it? I have no idea... I don't know...

...Drop it, will you please. Let's try to focus on the game of football, and stop this idiotic witch hunt of the "evil" Bill Belichick.

Now, now, now, ....let's not get so sensitive about this. If you don't know, don't get all bent out of shape. After all, its just a game! I'm just putting information that's available out there on the net so that people can judge for themselves whether the Pats "cheated" or not. I'm also responding to some angry retorts from some posters (you), which are at times, quite obnoxious. (I will continue to respond to such retorts with information on the net rather than justifications made out of thin air.)

Sadly, just a couple posts ago, I thought we were getting to a point of agreement regarding Belichick.

Here's a link that may truly express your feelings about Belichick:

You Tube: Leave Bill Belichick alone

Since he's such a great guy I've included a couple other links as well:

Belichick Shoves Photographer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwDJ_7L8zi0

Belichick F-bomb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUSH8X5Be8o

P.S. I will drop it as long as you stop your incessant bragging about your New England Patriots. Just tone it down a bit. Its annoying to read about the "great" New England Patriots when question marks about the team and their coaching remain unanswered. Let's leave it at that!

Edited November 15, 2007 by mauiguy90

[CalicoConsulting]

Bring back Jim Druckenmiller!

[el jefe]

I said before, and I say again, that I do not consider what he did to be "cheating". I consider it to have been a rule violation, since he was using a prohibitted method to .....

How do you define "cheating"?

[mackayae]

Now, why did he do it? I have no idea... I don't know...

...Drop it, will you please. Let's try to focus on the game of football, and stop this idiotic witch hunt of the "evil" Bill Belichick.

Now, now, now, ....let's not get so sensitive about this. If you don't know, don't get all bent out of shape. After all, its just a game! I'm just putting information that's available out there on the net so that people can judge for themselves whether the Pats "cheated" or not. I'm also responding to some angry retorts from some posters (you), which are at times, quite obnoxious. (I will continue to respond to such retorts with information on the net rather than justifications made out of thin air.)

P.S. I will drop it as long as you stop your incessant bragging about your New England Patriots. Just tone it down a bit. Its annoying to read about the "great" New England Patriots when question marks about the team and their coaching remain unanswered. Let's leave it at that!

Touche!

[mackayae]

Bring back Jim Druckenmiller!

Or Sonny Sixkiller.

[patsfangr]

Now, why did he do it? I have no idea... I don't know...

...Drop it, will you please. Let's try to focus on the game of football, and stop this idiotic witch hunt of the "evil" Bill Belichick.

Now, now, now, ....let's not get so sensitive about this. If you don't know, don't get all bent out of shape. After all, its just a game! I'm just putting information that's available out there on the net so that people can judge for themselves whether the Pats "cheated" or not. I'm also responding to some angry retorts from some posters (you), which are at times, quite obnoxious. (I will continue to respond to such retorts with information on the net rather than justifications made out of thin air.)

P.S. I will drop it as long as you stop your incessant bragging about your New England Patriots. Just tone it down a bit. Its annoying to read about the "great" New England Patriots when question marks about the team and their coaching remain unanswered. Let's leave it at that!

Touche!

My "incessant bragging" has been about the 2007 New England Patriots, who are undefeated, with no insinuations of any "cheating", or other questionable activities, since the confiscation of the video camera, before its' recording could be viewed, during the Jets game. This team has not had a single question raised about the reasons for its success by any informed, intelligent football analyst, or fan, for that matter. They are winning because they possess superior skills in player acquisition, coaching, and player performance. And those skills deserve recognition and high praise (or "bragging") by every knowledgeable, objective fan of NFL football. The same level of recognition and high praise that I have given, over the years, to the other great NFL teams that I identified in earlier notes in this thread.

As long as they continue to play at this level, I'll continue to praise them. And, if that bothers you, you'd better stop reading and watching the commentators and analysts in the media; because, in case you haven't noticed, they're doing the same thing. This team - the 2007 New England Patriots - has, thus far, performed better than any team in the history of the NFL. That, fellas, is not bragging. It's fact. (Unlike the unsupported accusations, blatant speculation, and assumptions presented by your "internet sources" like the New York Daily News! What, no National Enquirer articles?) ;-)

It could come to an end in "any given week" in the NFL. Then, without question, the cheering and rolling in the aisles with deafening laughter, from Pats haters will very definitely be "incessant". And it won't matter if that happens because the entire starting lineup is killed in a bus accident! The Pats haters will still revel in the downfall of the team that has been as good as they can only wish theirs could be. The cries of: "The cheaters got what they deserved!" "Justice has been served!" etc., etc.; will ring out like Osama Bin Laden had just been hung!

So, while they keep winning, either ignore the NFL; or be man enough to acknowledge a great team without your "incessant" whining and repetition of unproven speculation, assumptions, and accusations about all the "cheating" you want to believe Belichick did in the past, and how much it contributed to the Patriots success. That past, every element of it, has as many people from the NFL community (past and present coaches and players) on one side of the arguement as there are on the other. I'll say it one more time. Stealing signals is part of the game. It's done on the field, on the sidelines, from the press box. Everybody does it, one way or another. Everybody tries to use the information they gather "to gain a competitive advantage". Using a video camera from a position on the field is one method of doing so that is prohibitted by the league. Belichick violated that rule, because he obviously believed that to be a more effective way of doing what everybody else does in some way (and some in that SAME way, according to some people IN the NFL).

Do you remember the old joke about the guy asking a woman if she'll have sex with him for million dollars? She thinks for just a moment, and says "Yes, I will." He says; "OK. Will you have sex with me for $10?" She stiffens, and shouts back; "Of course not! What do you think I am?" To which he replies; "We've already established that, Madam. We're just haggling about the price."

That's what this videotape thing amounts to. We are "haggling over the method". Teams have used things like opening and closing doors to affect wind conditions; piping in artificially amplified noise; growing grass longer to minimize opponents "speed" advantage; and a long list of other structural and/or mechanical "adjustments" within their facility to "gain a competitive advantage." If you've never heard of any of this, you've been living in a bubble until now. This issue has been exaggerated far, far beyond both its' affect on the game, and its' degree of so-called violation of ethics. Why can't you just appreciate a great team, playing a great game, at an incredibly high level?

[mackayae]

You Tube: Leave Bill Belichick alone

I wondered what he looked like.