Foreign Manufacturers Ripping Off Thai Brands

[HunkeyDorey]

Som Nam Na

and so say all of us!

[TAWP]

I don't care about the trademark complaint since Trademark and Copyright laws are anti-competition and anti-free market. I do however care if one company tries to pretend to be another company/making a product from another company, as this is consumer fraud. And they can and should be sued by consumers and consumer protection agencies if the fraud is carried out.

Trademarks are here precisely to protect the consumer from frauds - provided the trademark rights an the laws are enforced (which is the big problem in Thailand), because a trademark is sort of a guarantee that the product bearing this trademark comes from the original manufacturer, who owns the trademark.

A competitor, who wants to sell a similar product must use a different trademark, a trademark which cannot be confused with the older trademark.

So if you want competition and a free market, you need trademarks to distinguish products and to protect the consumer.

Copyright is something different. Basically copyright protection protects works of art.

You are incorrect that Trademarks protect the customers. If you really want to dive into the area of TM's, there is several good books on the subject.

However, let me say this: If a person is selling a bag of cloned Prada design, the attached logo on the bag etc, but the sign the seller has says 'Prada copy, 500 baht', then no customer fraud has been carried out. But according to current TM laws the manufacturer, not any customers suffer fraud, is the ones getting reimbursed via a suit.

Thank you so much for your concern. After 30 years of practice in trademark law I am still interested in new books.

But you are correct, of course, the customer who knowingly buys a knock-off, is not deceived. The deception is done when someone affixes a confusingly similar trademark to a similar product and tries to take advantage of the little attention most consumers pay to the details of a product.

A real problem is when pirated products are sold without telling the consumer, such as pharmaceuticals, spare parts etc. Product piracy is a criminal offense precisely because the consumer must be able to rely on the trademark. And in this sense, trademarks do help to protect the consumer.

Ofcourse consumers should be able to trust that the medicine they buy is a genuine, as advertised, but this is a consumer fraud case, which could be both a civil and legal case.

The mistake so many do is to equate Trademark laws to be about consumer safety, it is not. It is a good argument, but lacking since the protection can still exist even without it and the consumers are not the ones that can bring the case today. Under the current trademark laws the companies bring the charges, not the actual consumers that are ripped off.

Instead Trademark laws are used to stifle competition, keeping prices artificially high, which is NOT in the consumers best interest.

Not to mention the bastardization of Trademark laws that now allow car-retailers to prohibit computer game manufacturers from using the likeness of their cars in their games, or gun manufacturers that prohibit toy manufacturers from making toy-guns in their likeness without expensive licensing deals. Customers are protected against thinking the computer game car isn't actually a real car? The 7 year old is protected against detecting that the AR-15 he bought isn't a real one?

Edited December 4, 2010 by TAWP

[jastheace]

This is terrible, It is a disgrace that poor Thais are being cheated by the evil foreigners - that is the Thais role in life. :jap:

agreed agreed and f'in agreed,wake up and smell the som tam.ok onne way not the other unless palms are greased..........who is upset exactly,taste the medicine you hypocites..........

[phetaroi]

Could this be karma?

Why would it be karma? Care to explain?

There are lots of ways to interpret the concept of karmic action. A very loose way of interpreting it is "what goes around, comes around." So now, in Thailand, a nation with one of the worst reputations for pirating the goods from other countries, now it's happening to them.

Now, again, that's a very loose way of interpreting the concept of karma, but perhaps a valid one.

What makes me laugh about the situation is that the police never seem to be able to catch the software pirates. Odd. When I used to walk into Pantip Plaza there was hardly a day pirated software (or pornography) wasn't pushed at me by the escalators on the third floor of Pantip...not to mention when I bought a desk top and laptop in two of the shops. And in reality, there were times police were standing right there watching it happen.

[fasteddie]

Could this be karma?

Why would it be karma? Care to explain?

I think what he/she means is that what goes around comes around. Thais have been pirating things for years and now something of thier own is being pirated. Go to any market and you can buy Guchi for 100 baht or any of the latest DVD's even before they have been released.

Well, they do something about and law enforcement working to reduce it.

Except you are some xenophobe racist who stereotype all Thais and blame all for what a few have done there is no reason to say any Thai patent/copyright holder has lost his right to complain because of the other pirates.

People make such silly and thoughtless comments will telling for sure here other stories how and unwelcome foreigners are or that they are always get ripped off. But that is probably only a karma like payback for this ugly mindset.

All this CDs - everyone know that is a copy, but when it comes to food products like drinks and and seasoning products fake products bearing a much greater risk like the health of the costumer.

How dare you play the race card, yours is the ugly mindset. The fact is, Thais have been pirating things for years so listening to them bleat about now being pirated is ironic in the very least!

[phetaroi]

Well, they do something about and law enforcement working to reduce it.

Except you are some xenophobe racist who stereotype all Thais and blame all for what a few have done there is no reason to say any Thai patent/copyright holder has lost his right to complain because of the other pirates.

People make such silly and thoughtless comments will telling for sure here other stories how and unwelcome foreigners are or that they are always get ripped off. But that is probably only a karma like payback for this ugly mindset.

All this CDs - everyone know that is a copy, but when it comes to food products like drinks and and seasoning products fake products bearing a much greater risk like the health of the costumer.

Sergei, are you really that naive? Let's take Pantip Plaza, as I mentioned in another post. Are you telling me that after a decade of these occasional "showcase" raids at Pantip that they literally can't stop the sales of pirated software in one shopping center?

Are you telling me that they can't put a stop to the selling of illegal pornography in one shopping center, when it is done totally out in the open?

You are correct, no matter who's doing it, it's wrong. But for the "people of Thailand" to be complaining about it, now that it is finally happening to them, is laughable. There are few cultures in the world that don't have some version of the "Golden Rule".

And pointing it out is not xenophobic or racist. My Thai ex -- well let's see, what can I say without being too direct -- had an influential position where he was one of the key people negotiating with international (mostly Western) software manufacturers for the purchase of software (and sometimes hardware) for a branch of the Thai government. And he couldn't figure out why Western software companies were suspicious of Thai business deals regarding software. And yes, on his own computer, there wasn't a single legal piece of software. And his response was always, "No Thai person buys legal software." Or, "Why should I pay Microsoft $300 when I can buy it for $3."

[phetaroi]

Is that so difficult to understand? You cannot blame one person or company for the wrongdoings of another person or company just based on the fact that their share the same nationality. If you do that you just come up with stupid stereotypes.

If you don't get this point you cannot be very intelligent and have probably a little arrogant mindset that looks down on others based on their nationality. And that is called xenophobia or racism.

Sergei, I would never say that just because the majority of people say something that that means they are right. But in general, whenever a topic is discussed on ThaiVisa there will be some fairly even split of opinions about said topic.

In this case, you are standing pretty much alone. Perhaps you should walk around the streets of Bangkok with an open mind and see if the selling of pirated goods is

a. common

b. occasional

c. rare

If your answer is anything other than "a", then you're not being honest. And if we can see it happening EVERYTWHERE in Bangkok, why can't the authorities see it?

And while you are correct that not every Thai owns pirated goods, whether it comes to "brand label" t-shirts, or software, or cologne, or a myriad of other products, the vast majority of Thais would not even blink an eye and buy the pirated goods.

Stopping the PUBLIC sale of pirated goods in Thailand would not be in the least bit difficult for the vast forces of the Thai police and military -- if they REALLY wanted to do it.

[supaprik]

Oh Karma for sure....ha ha ha....

[lee808]

Could this be karma?

No, surely not. They've never copied anything in Thailand before !!!

[orang37]

Red Bull is not Thai, it is Austrian. Kating Daeng is Thai.

Saswasdee Khrup, Khun Piengrudee,

Yes, "Red Bull" was Austrian, and it is a little known fact that World War One was started by the assassination of the Arch-Duke Ferdinand in Sarajevo: not over politics but because the Arch-Duke owned the Red Bull, and refused to allow the Red Bull to inseminate cows from the Slav parts of the Empire: Bosnia, Serbia, Slovakia, etc. for apparently racist reasons.

best, ~o:37;

[LaoPo]

How amusing that the thread has generated into an argument over a nasty beverage that makes bogus claims. All about marketing hype, much like the need to own a "gucci". Thailand isn't in a position to claim victim status with its widescale pharmaceutical counterfeiting business. Oh to be a fly on the wall when a Thai complains to another asian nation about illegal copying. I note that the foreigners referenced do not include the evil Americans, or colonial British or henious Huns or dastardly Dutch etc., etc. It's just the region's loveable friendly purveyors of international friendship, the Chinese and the good ole Malaysians, who I'm sure are affiliated with the Chinese wheelers and dealers. I don't seem to have received the memo about shedding a tear. I'll make a note to shed one next week. In the meantime, I'll leave you to Sergei and his special opinions. Wherever there is an argument, you're sure to find him.

Make sure you bring your bucket (without leaking holes) with you at all times

Love your sarcasm once in a while.

LaoPo

[Hawaiian]

Phetaroi, agree with you. Even Thais know about pirated goods. Just ask any Thai woman why she brought home cosmetics or other items from abroad when they are available in Thailand for much less.

[LaoPo]

You are missing something here. One of the big reasons why a company like say Nike, sells there product for so much more than what a copy can sell for, is the copy is not paying for all the marketing and adverting but is reaping the rewards of this. You fail to realize the amount of money these large companies spend on prompting their brands. Paying sports figures millions of dollars a year to promote and wear their products. This is one of the reasons for the big brands having to sell their products at such a high price. Im not saying they aren't making nice profits, but just looking at the manufacturing cost is not being realist.

Also most of the retail stores have a mark up of anywhere between 30-60%. I sell my products to Tesco for 100 baht they are selling it for 150 baht. So selling a copy on the street they already reduced the price by a good margin and then only have the actual production cost and not all of the overhead.

Rule number one is: WITHOUT DESIGNER LABELS...NO FAKE INDUSTRY.

Most Designers feel very flattered once their products are copied; after they became famous, the companies, who own the brands, are protesting and screaming from the roofs, as loud as possible that they "suffer" from the fake industry.

Nonsense, since it's free advertising and the buyers of fake products are not able to afford the real product.

I could give you thousands of examples of the real products, ie Armani, Gucci, Valentino, Louis Vuitton and the like where single products run into the thousands of Dollars/Euros....per piece!

Ladies bags of 5K, 10K or more are no exception.

The designers/companies actual gain from the spreading of their brand name on fake products and the once "poor" fake-buyer will once, if she/he has the money for it, buy the original.

Both can't live without the other.

And, in Nike's case, and other sportswear companies, they are not obligated to pay sports stars so many millions....they invented that product (read: paying sports star) themselves...the star didn't knock on their door himself, he was asked because he/she was extremely good in his sports.

The millions paid to stars is something out of the last 2 or 3 decades. Nobody paid good sports stars before that time.

PS: about mark-up in retail stores: in fashion the mark-up is x 2.2 of buying price, excl VAT.

In large department stores selling hardware household products for instance, the mark-up can be from +150% up to + 500% and more, depending on the product if they buy the products from their own buying offices in Asia.

LaoPo

[bristolgeoff]

what comes around goes around with fake goods in thailand

[MAJIC]

Of course China does the most copying ,but who imports pirate goods and sells them? Oh and Thailands own copies of course,<BR><BR>IMO if it was a trade off,with China stopping copying Thai goods,and Thailand stopping selling their copies,<BR><BR>Then Thailand would be a Big time loser.<BR><BR>Talk about the Pot calling Pan smutty! it defies belief!

The P*** off in all this is:China is flooding the World with Cheap Copies,strangling Countries Consumer IndustrIes to death,and not even America will stand up to them,just pick up any article,and read the base,if made in China is not on it,its probably an Industry about to go bust!

Edited December 4, 2010 by MAJIC

[virtualtraveller]

Do the math: I million is 0.1% of 1 billion in sales. I'd consider that an acceptable loss for the gain in publicity from all these fake bottles of Red Bull knocking about.

[Tatsujin]

What goes around, comes around . . .

[selftaopath]

Could this be karma?

My thoughts exactly. GOOD. I hope all of Thailand - a "buddhist" country - learns what they give out might return.

[KKK]

what's next charging Thais twice the price for said goods!

Hopefully...a little of their own medicine might do them good.

[KKK]

Now I would like to see western governments applying the same land ownership, visa, and citizenship rules for Thais that we have to put up with in Thailand. "Oh! Aren't they awful! Look how badly they are treating us poor Thai citizens!"

Not necessary for western governments to do anything. It is up to the Thai government to rule over the Thais as they do us farang. I.E. if it is deemed NOT RIGHT (illegal) for a farang to own land HERE then it should be equally NOT RIGHT and illegal for a Thai to own land outside of Thailand. Any Thai found owning land outside of Thailand should be prosecuted HERE with loss of citizenship the highest penalty. Anything less would be a double-standard which of course the Thais are famous for.

[KKK]

They should clean up there own back yard before complaining.

Tue and it applies to all countries. It is all too easy for a country to turn its populations attention (through publicity) to another country before looking at its own problems. Solving one's own problems may be hard but talking about others is cheap and easy.

[KKK]

Marmite is disgusting

Depends on version...British or NZ ... they use different recipies.

[asiawatcher]

What a priceless stupid article.

[manta]

Could this be karma?

som num na

[dominique355]

"Not to mention the bastardization of Trademark laws that now allow car-retailers to prohibit computer game manufacturers from using the likeness of their cars in their games, or gun manufacturers that prohibit toy manufacturers from making toy-guns in their likeness without expensive licensing deals. Customers are protected against thinking the computer game car isn't actually a real car? The 7 year old is protected against detecting that the AR-15 he bought isn't a real one? "

This is a case of extended protection of so-called famous trademarks, which enjoy protection beyond the immediate range of products they are used for usually. The reason for this is that a third party should not unduly take advantage of the goodwill, fame and reputation of another's products.

The game manufacturer e.g. uses the shape and name created by another to sell his products. He doesn't create his own forms and names of game cars and figures but takes advantage of the hard work others have done to create a product and make it famous to make profit for his own. That's no fair and without permission from the owner of the original products the toy or game manufacturer should not be allowed to do that. Here Trademark Law helps to maintain fair competition and fair competition is always in the consumer's interest.

Moreover, today you see many big manufacturers extending their range of products to all kind of unrelated products. (E.g. Pierre Cardin now sells hand-held GPS navigation devices.) For this reason too the consumer might be deceived about the true origin of a product if third parties are allowed to use the famous trademark for their own products.

So "bastardization" may be a bit harsh, it's rather a natural development in a free market system with competition as the motor of development.

[ajarnmark]

Could this be karma?

Why would it be karma? Care to explain?

I think what he/she means is that what goes around comes around. Thais have been pirating things for years and now something of thier own is being pirated. Go to any market and you can buy Guchi for 100 baht or any of the latest DVD's even before they have been released.

I think everyone is losing the point. Two wrongs can never be right. If you were owner of any product which has been copied, how would you feel? So dont paint everyone with the same brush.

For the OP, pirating things is nothing new and is being going in in EACH AND EVERY country.

[Chunky1]

Thais do not deserve this treatment from foreigners. It is horrible and despicable.

[KKK]

Thais do not deserve this treatment from foreigners. It is horrible and despicable.

You now know how we foreigners feel. "A taste of your own medicine"

[Thaddeus]

Thais do not deserve this treatment from foreigners. It is horrible and despicable.

You now know how we foreigners feel. "A taste of your own medicine"

And as far as I am concerned, it's only a fraction of the recommended daily dose.

[AZBill]

I couldn't stop laughing at this hypocrisy as the Thais are now outraged over pirating of their stuff!!!! In the words of Forrest Gump, "stupid is as stupid does!"