Caught Jamming

[Sunny Valentine]

According to what I heard last night, the jammer in question was interviewed for 30 minutes at the local nick, given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again until he had a WP. They also gave him some guidance on how to go about getting one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So how does one apply for a work permit that allows one to jam, or conduct other unpaid activities Thai law classifies as working? Maybe the guy in question can update us all now?

Sunny

[jayenram]

According to what I heard last night, the jammer in question was interviewed for 30 minutes at the local nick, given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again until he had a WP. They also gave him some guidance on how to go about getting one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So how does one apply for a work permit that allows one to jam, or conduct other unpaid activities Thai law classifies as working? Maybe the guy in question can update us all now?

Sunny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't spoke to the jammer in question personally yet. I would think that describing himself as an "American Deep South Blues Saxophonist" may fit the bill.

[sriracha john]

According to what I heard last night, the jammer in question was interviewed for 30 minutes at the local nick, given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again until he had a WP. They also gave him some guidance on how to go about getting one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So how does one apply for a work permit that allows one to jam, or conduct other unpaid activities Thai law classifies as working? Maybe the guy in question can update us all now?

Sunny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't spoke to the jammer in question personally yet. I would think that describing himself as an "American Deep South Blues Saxophonist" may fit the bill.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good news that he's not been treated worse...

Such an ado over an unpaid musical performance... mind-boggling

Imagine the outcome might have been quite different if he had actually been getting paid for it..

Deep South Blues.... terrific genre...

Edited August 18, 2005 by sriracha john

[HarryHacker]

…I would put money on Mr Jam being caught in the middle of some local argument and grassed up to the Boys in Brown to cause problems to the owners of the beer garden or someone close to him.

[phastmike]

So how does one apply for a work permit that allows one to jam, or conduct other unpaid activities Thai law classifies as working? Maybe the guy in question can update us all now?

Sunny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, even the tsunami aid volunteers had/have to apply for a work permit...

[Sunny Valentine]

Now back to serious: A lot of activities we farang consider as hobbies can (and sometimes, as this thread tells us, are) considered illegal working by Thai authorities.

Would the following theoretical approach work in order to legalise our hobbies:

Create a 2 Million Baht Company, hire 4 Thai Workers (on paper), get an Office, pay yourself 50000 or 60000 Bt a month (on paper), take care of accounting etc .... And apply for a Work Permit, with duties according to your hobby. Pay taxes and Social Security fees, of course!

Estimated costs: 50000 Bt One Time.

20000 bt a month for Taxes and Social Security, Accounting, and rent of a virtual Office.

Now, some of us (not me!!!) might even consider spending this money on their hobby ......

Would that work, especially as the Company will only burn money, never really create any income streams......?

Sunny

[phastmike]

Thai rak baht

[WhiteShiva]

>>> he has turned millions away from Aikido

I trained with experts, they were pretty weak

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree - I frequently beat black belts when I am bored too, and those Aikido masters are no match for me either.........

[Nomad97]

I have a Selmer Super Series 80 Alto and a Boosey and Hawkes Tenor sax at home in Surin. Both make super sounds when played properly. In light of the above I think my playing days are over. Anyone care to buy one or both?

[sadman]

Thanks for posting this, I showed it to my wife, my housecleaning/repair days

are over !! Yippie!!

Thanks!

nam

Don't try this at home. Most accidents happen in the home, and when I suggested nam's course of action, the management had a really unfortunate slip that resulted in me getting a sharp crack in the nads.

Would love to post more, but the washing awaits.

[jrincon17]

Yeah, If it can be shown he was volunteering freely his talents, than niether he nor anyone at the pub should be charged anything. It is not even a minor dismeanor...

However, if he was using any of the establishments equipment than the establishment can get bolloxed. If a mic or an amp or anything like that is "loaned" to a performer it is considered equal to the establishment HIRING the musician.

If he was just there without Equipment than no probs..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WHAT ABOUT THE ELECTRICITY , I FIGURE THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THE HECK THEY DECIDE TO DO TO HIM . I SEE GUYS JAMMIN IN PATONG AT A PLACE ,THAT LETS SEE I FORGOT THE NAME . ITS THAILAND , HE MIGHT HAVE RUBBED SOMEONE THE WRONG WAY

[meelousee]

2 years ago Steven Seagull was having a holiday here and was Jamming with Add Karabow  <<< is the spelling correct ?playing blues in a club for fun  but the boys in brown did not arrest him....infact they are enjoying it too

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, he was here filming a movie, "belly of the beast"...so he would probably have been on a temporary entertainers permit that allows him to work in various locations...so he might have actually been legal !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This makes me kinda angry, when there are 50 or 60 russian whores walking the street and making hits on the sky train and some poor SOB having a good time just because he can make music gets harrassed.

I am gona go look for him I know a few Imm. cops they will help me out, I am out the door at 8AM wish me luck.

[phastmike]

It must be said: Thais are pathetic.

Total slease-ball bullies

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not all thais, mainly those who have the power

[drummer]

Lets see - to lightly paraphrase, work is defined as "work, whether you are getting money or something else, and whether or not you know it"

hmmmmm.

Not just cooking and cleaning, but even driving a car qualifies. Just wait till some poor sod gets deported by the traffic police ....

[penelope]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

[lampard10]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, you are a Doctor on holiday and driving in a remote area of Thailand. You come across a road accident with all the victims lying comatose or worse with blood pouring from them. So, if you are not lazy or stupid, you will ignore it and drive on, because of course, as proven by the Tsunami relief workers, it is a crime against Thailand to stop and help them. Do me a favour. Or according to your fantastic remedy, tell them not to die till you nip off for a work permit. Why do so many posters, post crap on this site?

The plain and simple truth is the law HAS to be changed to allow scenarios like the one above. It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness or stupidity. I know of a case, around seven or eight years ago, when a guy was apprehended while changing a light bulb in a bar. This helpful action was construed as WORK. If you take the law to it's word, then helping an old lady across the street is work as well. No Penelope, you've got it all wrong there.

Edited August 20, 2005 by lampard10

[chonabot]

Agree Lamps . in a country that seems so attractive because of the Free spirit displayed here , it is the most control freak-like paradox of all time.

Sad sad sad......

[LivinLOS]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The laws relating to work are outdated and confused with no basis for application.

Your here retired, you have to have an income equivalent to 800k per year, you have stocks and shares to provide that income. So one stock starts to tank or fly.. now you go online or call your broker to buy or sell.. Your working no ??

If you think thats not working then extrapolate that to trading them weekly or daily or hourly.. where does working start ???

Investing v working with the communications structure now makes a mockery of some of these laws you say are all available to read.. If its so clear an consise please get an answer to the above.. Or find out why options trading is legal but spread betting an exchange is not ?? Its essentially the same financial trade both are gambles (as is any share purchase or even investment) but gambling is illegal.. Define gamble in thailand (the laws are there for all to read) I would say investing in any business or development ever is a gamble is it not ??

I love it here but the laws are badly written and ineffective... I often wonder if this is done on purpose to ensure work and income for those that enforce them.

[raro]

very interesting post...we used to have an all Farang band in Pattaya, playing in various bars - usually hi-jacking the place and playing for about an hour. We checked that with a lawyer and the immigration beforehand...answer was it is working strict by the books, but since we do it for free, occasionally and in various places, it wouldn't really matter. We didn't get that in writing, though. All of us had regular jobs.

Nowadays, in some of those bars i get instantly handed a guitar when I show up whether I want to play or not. The musicians take this as a welcomed break - after all they're playing 4 to 5 or even more hours in a row each night..

btw: If there is a capable lead guitarist out there, living in the vicinity of Pattaya, PM me!

[penelope]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, you are a Doctor on holiday and driving in a remote area of Thailand. You come across a road accident with all the victims lying comatose or worse with blood pouring from them. So, if you are not lazy or stupid, you will ignore it and drive on, because of course, as proven by the Tsunami relief workers, it is a crime against Thailand to stop and help them. Do me a favour. Or according to your fantastic remedy, tell them not to die till you nip off for a work permit. Why do so many posters, post crap on this site?

The plain and simple truth is the law HAS to be changed to allow scenarios like the one above. It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness or stupidity. I know of a case, around seven or eight years ago, when a guy was apprehended while changing a light bulb in a bar. This helpful action was construed as WORK. If you take the law to it's word, then helping an old lady across the street is work as well. No Penelope, you've got it all wrong there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i didn't create the laws. what the heck do you mean by I've got it all wrong.haha.

i see winging as pointless, and always look for solutions.what are your solutions ?my solution is to observe the laws because i cant see them changing.

your analogy is related to a spontaneous act of life saving or an on the spot decision, a little different to a jam or people conducting activities where a degree of preparedness or premeditation is involved.

[Jockstar]

Being an Aikido guy myself (ex now), I think he actually helped the art. Ole Steve is the real deal BTW - he Trained in Japan for quite a few years. If it wasnt for his ex girlfriend (woman in weird science?), he would still be doing security.

Kelly Le Brockely

Kelly Le Brock!

Her grandmother is actually Scottish and lives in Coatbridge about 2 miles from where i come from. Just some useless info for you.

Edited August 20, 2005 by Jockstar

[lampard10]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, you are a Doctor on holiday and driving in a remote area of Thailand. You come across a road accident with all the victims lying comatose or worse with blood pouring from them. So, if you are not lazy or stupid, you will ignore it and drive on, because of course, as proven by the Tsunami relief workers, it is a crime against Thailand to stop and help them. Do me a favour. Or according to your fantastic remedy, tell them not to die till you nip off for a work permit. Why do so many posters, post crap on this site?

The plain and simple truth is the law HAS to be changed to allow scenarios like the one above. It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness or stupidity. I know of a case, around seven or eight years ago, when a guy was apprehended while changing a light bulb in a bar. This helpful action was construed as WORK. If you take the law to it's word, then helping an old lady across the street is work as well. No Penelope, you've got it all wrong there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i didn't create the laws. what the heck do you mean by I've got it all wrong.haha.

i see winging as pointless, and always look for solutions.what are your solutions ?my solution is to observe the laws because i cant see them changing.

your analogy is related to a spontaneous act of life saving or an on the spot decision, a little different to a jam or people conducting activities where a degree of preparedness or premeditation is involved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok agreed. Spontaneous. But if the guy was not a doctor but his friend back at the Hotel was, and he phoned him to come out and help, that would definately fall into your catergory.

[Sunny Valentine]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agree, that the law is the law, how stupid and outdated it may be.

Where i don't agree with you, is that you seem to make us believe there are avenues for some of these activities (in my eyes wrongly) considered illegal work.

Please update me on: How can a farang (tourist or retired, or even with a work permit allowing him specific type of work in a specific location) prepare himself legally so that he is allowed to partake in a music jam, without payment or gratification, just as a hobby? Show me this avenue, please!

And believe me, there are lots of farang tourists or residents in Thailand who have hobbies like this, always on the edge of the law.

Sunny

[MyNameIsFarang]

Agree, that the law is the law, how stupid and outdated it may be.

Where i don't agree with you, is that you seem to make us believe there are avenues for some of these activities (in my eyes wrongly) considered illegal work.

Please update me on: How can a farang (tourist or retired, or even with a work permit allowing him specific type of work in a specific location) prepare himself legally so that he is allowed to partake in a music jam, without payment or gratification, just as a hobby? Show me this avenue, please!

And believe me, there are lots of farang tourists or residents in Thailand who have hobbies like this, always on the edge of the law.

Sunny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The answer seems to be pretty simple: play at home and invite your friends whether as fellow musicians or as a captive audience. Or rent a practice hall.

The essential point which seems to keep getting shoved aside is that one foreigner without permits providing entertainment causes one Thai or one legally permitted foreigner to go without employment. The circumstances are really irrelevant. There's a benefit being conveyed to the audience and those who provide that benefit need to be in compliance with the law.

And comparing a trifle like playing music with a doctor's response to a life-threatening emergency is a desperate ad absurdum argument.

[chuchok]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You sound like a Headmaster penelope.

[jackr]

Agree, that the law is the law, how stupid and outdated it may be.

Where i don't agree with you, is that you seem to make us believe there are avenues for some of these activities (in my eyes wrongly) considered illegal work.

Please update me on: How can a farang (tourist or retired, or even with a work permit allowing him specific type of work in a specific location) prepare himself legally so that he is allowed to partake in a music jam, without payment or gratification, just as a hobby? Show me this avenue, please!

And believe me, there are lots of farang tourists or residents in Thailand who have hobbies like this, always on the edge of the law.

Sunny

The answer seems to be pretty simple: play at home and invite your friends whether as fellow musicians or as a captive audience. Or rent a practice hall.

The essential point which seems to keep getting shoved aside is that one foreigner without permits providing entertainment causes one Thai or one legally permitted foreigner to go without employment. The circumstances are really irrelevant. There's a benefit being conveyed to the audience and those who provide that benefit need to be in compliance with the law.

And comparing a trifle like playing music with a doctor's response to a life-threatening emergency is a desperate ad absurdum argument.

Spot on!

[sriracha john]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, you are a Doctor on holiday and driving in a remote area of Thailand. You come across a road accident with all the victims lying comatose or worse with blood pouring from them. So, if you are not lazy or stupid, you will ignore it and drive on, because of course, as proven by the Tsunami relief workers, it is a crime against Thailand to stop and help them. Do me a favour. Or according to your fantastic remedy, tell them not to die till you nip off for a work permit. Why do so many posters, post crap on this site?

The plain and simple truth is the law HAS to be changed to allow scenarios like the one above. It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness or stupidity. I know of a case, around seven or eight years ago, when a guy was apprehended while changing a light bulb in a bar. This helpful action was construed as WORK. If you take the law to it's word, then helping an old lady across the street is work as well. No Penelope, you've got it all wrong there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i didn't create the laws. what the heck do you mean by I've got it all wrong.haha.

i see winging as pointless, and always look for solutions.what are your solutions ?my solution is to observe the laws because i cant see them changing.

your analogy is related to a spontaneous act of life saving or an on the spot decision, a little different to a jam or people conducting activities where a degree of preparedness or premeditation is involved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh ok... I wasn't aware they had re-written the law... and have added "spontaneous"... So it's alright to work without a permit, as long as it's spontaneous.

For someone who says... "the law is the law" ... you then provide exceptions to your own statement.... which is fine, because it points out the absurdity of the law the way it IS written.

[sriracha john]

Agree, that the law is the law, how stupid and outdated it may be.

Where i don't agree with you, is that you seem to make us believe there are avenues for some of these activities (in my eyes wrongly) considered illegal work.

Please update me on: How can a farang (tourist or retired, or even with a work permit allowing him specific type of work in a specific location) prepare himself legally so that he is allowed to partake in a music jam, without payment or gratification, just as a hobby? Show me this avenue, please!

And believe me, there are lots of farang tourists or residents in Thailand who have hobbies like this, always on the edge of the law.

Sunny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The answer seems to be pretty simple: play at home and invite your friends whether as fellow musicians or as a captive audience. Or rent a practice hall.

The essential point which seems to keep getting shoved aside is that one foreigner without permits providing entertainment causes one Thai or one legally permitted foreigner to go without employment. The circumstances are really irrelevant. There's a benefit being conveyed to the audience and those who provide that benefit need to be in compliance with the law.

And comparing a trifle like playing music with a doctor's response to a life-threatening emergency is a desperate ad absurdum argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

refer to previous post... if the law is the law... you are unable to differentiate either situation... as they are BOTH illegal "under the law". It's not Lamp's created scenario that is desperate and absurd, it's the law that is.

[drummer]

An argument, ad absurdum, about a law with a circular definition?

Letter of the law, if anyone wants to be completely legal - DON'T DRIVE YOURSELF. you can hire people for that, and some poor cabbie is unemployed because you have your own car. You can also hire cooks and maids. Letter of the law, and all. Changing a lightbulb?

Who was making an absurd argument?

Incedentally, quite a lot of jamming that goes on is indeed spontaneous and inolves no premeditation.

The law is the law - as much for window dressing as anything else. The bit about the musicians is not for farang so much as it is for Philipino musicians. Farang musicians will never put Thai musicians out of work. Its a different catagory all together. Most situations th hire farang, or want to, do so because that is exactly what they want - mostly becuse the farang sing English without an accent. The fellow jamming on the saxophone is not putting some poor Thai saxophone player out of work. This is likely to be true even if he was getting pid. Most certainly there are some exceptions to theis, but not very many. (This was NOT true with the numbers of Philipino musicians coming over, it should be noted, which is why the rule is written the way it is)

But writing a very nationalistic law is a very popular thing to do, even if it doesn't make practical sense or if you have no intention of actually enforcing it. This is the case, from what i can see, about farang musicians. Most of the time they are pretty well tolerated. They never have and never will be a problem for Thai musicians, who generally work cheaper and are quite capable. There are a lot of truly outstanding Thai musicians. There really are.

Theoretically, its not really legal for farang to get work permits to be msuicians for more than a very short time, anyway.

Of course, the law is the law, and what can you do about it? You can say I'm *****ing and moaning about the law - I really don't mean to be. The law is for Thais to write. I'm not Thai, this is THEIR country, not mine. However, talking about something, bringing problems into public debate, airing points of view can be quite helpful. Just because something is the law, and you don't think you can do anything about it doesn't always translate directly to "Bend over."

In other words, there is some value to the discussion we are having, even if it is to hear other points of view and persepctives. Thai law is for the Thais to make. But its a reasonably free country, and last I checked, I can at least give my opinion on what I think about it. (which really isn't as bad as I probably sound)

The law is written so generally that I doubt that many foreigners who aren't on hort vacations, and fair percentage of the ones who are, are not technically legal.

Jamming is a recreation that a LOT of people have. I know a LOT of people who are here for various reasons, completely legitimately, and who bring a lot of money into Thailand, who like to play music. These people don't get paid for it, aren't putting Thai musicians out of work, and in some cases, are gladly welcomed by the Thai musicians they are supposedly "competing" with.

You can make a stronger argument that you are hurting the Thai economy more if you cook your own food.

Argument ad absurdum? Thats precisely the point, my friend.

[lampard10]

  It's not Lamp's created scenario that is desperate and absurd, it's the law that is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly the point I was trying to make John