Briton Found Naked, Tied To The Bars Of A Cell In Pattaya Police Station

[caf]

What is this I read about me standing to attention!

What a load of rubbish. This thread is becoming stupid now.

There's not much you can do to redeem yourself. You have too much history and people will always remember that.

Having said you will not reply more on this thread it seems that you, and maybe some newly joined "friends" are attempting a damage limitaion exercise.

You may get some respect byu answering some of the obvious questions about why you and the consulate were so inactive in this case

Even an apology would be in order, though I doubt you are up for that.

[Buchholz]

I will no be able to post any more here.

Howard

What a load of rubbish.

Since you are able to post, might you consider answering any of the questions that were raised after you made your post that you would not be able to post here any more?

[backfromouterspace]

I'd have thought that HM the British Consul, who cant intervene personally, could have at least tipped someone off or had a friend contact someone who could help. But apparently not. That's all that was required. Look out for the full story of how Howard almost saved the day in the next issue of Pattaya One Newspaper

[apollo13]

Unfortunately I am not able to get too involved in this thread but I would like to say that the initial story has errors, one of which is the length of time he was at Pattaya Police Station for.

The original piece states "He is reported to have been there for three months...."

He was incarcarated for just under two weeks during which time I visited 4 times, providing food, water and clothes and he was in the condition shown in the photo's when he arrived there.

I like Drummond's current blog entry, "A conspiracy of silence - a comment" which I am sure he issued out of sheer frustration that the story did not earn him any money. Is he trying to pressure me, the Embassy or the Foreign Office into speaking out on the case and revealing what actually happened?

There are more errors in the first two blog entries on this case but they are not worth highlighting.

I will no be able to post any more here.

Howard

Howard's post is on par with a letter you might get from an unqualified builder who's just caused extensive damage to your house. How did he get the job of Hon' Consul ? I bet I could've found a better candidate in 20 minutes on Khao Saan Road.

Edited December 10, 2010 by apollo13

[newtronbom]

The answer to your question is that in all reports we stated that the FCO had known about the man being in Pattaya police station since November 23 2010. Prisoners in the station, Benny Moalfi, said, had claimed he had been there three months. My clarification was unequivocal. No I will not be joining Pattaya One in the near or distant future. What would I get to write? There is no vendetta. Read what I have written. Nothing bad about Howard Miller at all.

I gave you many questions, you haven't answered any of them.

Fact: You did not clarify the situation at all, not one iota. Not good for a journo really!

Please re read my post to you and answer the questions.

I am not really interested in you and Mr Miller, my questions concern the reactions you have elicited against the British Embassy Consular Staff.

I doubt you will be joining Pattaya One whatever that is (I have never had the pleasure of reading it), my invitation for you to interview me was concerning the realities of arrest and incarceration of British nationals in Thailand, but I guess the truth would not sell like your fabricated crap in this story.. In it's truest sense this is utterly diabolical journalism (in fact I do many many people a disservice by calling it journalism), shame on you. Hope it got you a few Singha. Oh by the way, if you were so appalled why didn't you free the guy? Why wait for the lady on the white horse?, maybe because you didn't meet him eh!, just left it to a photographer called Benny, who no doubt makes his living from... shocking photographs!!

Edited to add "What's to check is the fact that it is reported he had been in there for 3 months"

I have just re read your article. it is poor, ill written, with errors. Now the photographer is also an activist ex prisoner, who is lobbying against the Thai prison service. Seems like a "hey john take your shorts of mate, this will get em" photo may have been in order, but as a good research journo you checked the whole thing out right!

And to think the Lady in White may have been persuaded to front up the cash to release this guy by your exaggerated story of 3 months is quite frustrating for her I am sure. if it would have been accurately reported about the length of the mans incarceration and the prognosis you could have saved her a grand or so, but hey, you got a quick buck.

I don't know Andrew D, but I have seen some of his work. When not making an "off the cuff" reply to a post, his English and grammar seem very good - especially when compared to the standard of more than a few on this forum. I have been the victim of reporters/media myself. I have no love for them. They can do a lot of damage and often hurt innocent people. Unfortunately, they are often the only ones with the balls or guts to say what needs to be said, to put some things right. In this age of massive cover ups, spin doctors and in many places 'media suppression' and control, they are essential. I say they do more good than harm, even though I am a victim myself.

Whether or not this poor man in Pattaya would have been saved without Andrew posting this news, I don't know. He could have been there a lot longer. He could have died? Regardless, Andrew did bring it to our attention first. His post did not start the criticism directed at the Brit embassy. The post by 'jayjay0' did that

"Here in Chiang Mia the British consulate is next to useless also. I personally know of two cases where a British citizen needed help and was turned away. Thankfully a Christian organization helped them out." [end quote] Andrew put it like this......

"They are awaiting on a decision from the British Embassy in Bangkok. But will, or should, the British government cough up for his treatment?" [end quote] A fair statement is it not? My emphasis on "will - or should". Maybe he should also have asked what embassy staff are allowed to do in this situation. I don't know their mandate restrictions, but do know many good people there, that do the best they are allowed to, within that mandate. You seem to have a burr up your butt for Andrew and his like, but is it not possible, that the very hue and cry and bad press resulting from his post, may well help the embassy staff here by bringing public pressure to bare on the FO, who may then be able to justify giving a wider/better mandate and a bigger budget to their embassy staff to better cover situations like this?? If so, Andrew has once again done his job well. I don't think he "sensationalized" this case at all - the case speaks for itself......Finally. The "activist ex prisoner/photographer" is fighting a good cause. Any one who has made visits to prisoners here, knows that the Thai prison system needs all the change and help it can get. If not for people like this Benny, who else here is going to do anything about it, or try and change it? You?

[andrewdrummond]

I see the "joined-today" squad was out in force last night, with intimidating efforts of lawsuit threats and court-ordered ISP tracking as well as obfuscation over items in the article that are actually quite clear when one simply reads the news article (eg. source of the 3 month confinement quote).

It goes a long way in understanding how the British authorities react when it's revealed to the public how they've dropped the ball in a situation. Rather than humbly apologize for their oversight and voicing a sincere effort to endeavor to ensure that it won't be repeated in the future, we get disjointed ramblings, accusatory statements, derogatory characterizations of the civilian that did help the man, followed by blanket denials of any shortcomings they may have had in this case.

This all leads to concern that the very same situation will likely occur in the future. Sad.

Actually the British Embassy have done nothing to obfuscate the situation. They know when a story like this comes up they are going to be hammered on the news forums. It happens every time. For their own reasons there are a loud and vocal voices of protest from dozens maybe hundreds of Britons in Thailand. Often they have a grumble about something else competely and use these times to vent their spleens. What the British Embassy has sensibly not done is get involved in this regular backlash. I know exactly what consular people face. I was in Thailand for the incident that actually resulted in the installation of what appear to be bullet proof screens in the consular section.

However if Howard has enlisted people to write in on his behalf with insults, threats, and a complete dismissal of the courageous action taken by the woman known as 'Tracy' then my guess is they would not be impressed. He has himself come on here to suggest that greed was my motive for writing the story. There is little money in this business. If I had an unsolicited story in the Daily Telegraph five days a week I would have an annual income of 14.400 pounds a year, less than 1/5 of what I would be getting three years ago.

PS: My source insists Howard was standing at attention. But if Howard denies it I am happy to go with that.

[andrewdrummond]

I'd have thought that HM the British Consul, who cant intervene personally, could have at least tipped someone off or had a friend contact someone who could help. But apparently not. That's all that was required. Look out for the full story of how Howard almost saved the day in the next issue of Pattaya One Newspaper

Indeed. Earlier this year we produced a film piece for ITN on a young British lad Tom Moss who was severely injured in a motorcycle accident in Chiang Mai. No insurance unfortunately. As a direct result of that piece over 30,000 was raised in the UK to airlift Tom back home. The Embassy could do nothing, and indeed why should we, the British tax payer (yes I still pay some tax in the UK) foot the bill when people are warned time and time again to get full insurance.

I am glad to report in this case that there have been people willing to help out after reading about this man's plight. Whatever his history it looks like his ticket home has already been taken care of.

[apollo13]

[quote name='hm1973' timestamp='1291942588' post='407788

What a load of rubbish. This thread is becoming stupid now.

Considering the fact that you have become the main topic, one has to presume that that was inevitable, Howard.

Edited December 10, 2010 by apollo13

[andrewdrummond]

I think Tom is really me posting under another name.

Me too

[OLDAUSSIE]

I have not bothered to read the complete thread.

The only thing I have to say is thanks to Andrew Drummond and the other people that were involved in getting this guy to Hospital.

What Im seeing in the pictures of this poor man is like something out of the dark ages.

[Deeral]

Well. after a long long time of simply surfing around the boards on this site, I am compelled to register and post.

I am staggered by the number of venomous posts on here calling the British embassy staff and volunteer workers all the names under the Sun, when it is quite clear that the vast majority of posters on here have absolutely no clue about what goes on and no idea at all of the people they are trashing who work for the British Embassy.

I am not quite sure I know where to start.

I am not an Embassy official, but have done some work with them as I wished to be involved with prison visits, and where better to start than with the Consular staff who at the time offered me 'free training and advice'.

I have never met such a group of diligent, hard working individuals since I arrived in Thailand. Often some of them continue to work through till 7pm every evening (overtime is not paid). They are professional, caring and knowledgeable , and luckily have Rhinoceros skin. In Thailand, they provide a service that far exceeds the legal requirement, and they do it because they care greatly. Sure like anybody in any job, they can cock up, but it is a rare event. Often, (in fact almost always), they give money out of their own pocket when they first visit a prisoner, cash and they buy clothes, books, food, soap etc etc. Now you may consider 'so what', but there are at least 100 Brit prisoners in Bangkok alone, do you have any idea how much that costs.

The embassy is required to visit anybody held in custody once every 8 weeks until they are committed to prison by a court, after that your rights to consular visits are minimal. In reality the Consular staff visit much more regularly than that and are in the Immigration detention centers and prisons every day of the week.

The consular staff are not 'diplomats'.

They do not go to "Lunches, Dinners and Parties" every day, nor do any of them say "Tally Ho Old Chap".

A few members are career FO workers, who are posted here along with their expertise from the UK. Most are guys like you, who moved out here for a better life, applied for a job and got it, and are paid Thailand salaries.

They are confronted on a day to day basis with the threat of physical and constant verbal abuse, as others seem to wish to make their own misfortunes and wrongdoings the fault of Consular staff.

Imagine being a cashier in Tesco's or working behind a local bar and someone comes up to you and says "oy you, you little f***ing C**t, give me some f***ing money and some food and beer now you peice of sh*te". My question is, would you continue to serve them? The chances are...no! Yet I have sat and heard exactly those words shouted out at two consular representatives, one of whom was a young Thai lady, and after their eyes went down and they took a breath, they continued to offer to help the man. They even gave him 500 baht, to tide him over until they had filled out all the paperwork to get him 1000 baht a month from the charity 'Prisoners Abroad".

The FO cannot pay for your repatriation. Do you have any idea how many people that would be around the world each year???? Go back to the Tesco's analogy. You queue up with a full shopping trolley, get to the checkout and when it comes to payment you say, "sorry I have forgotten my wallet, can I take my shopping home and I will come and pay you tomorrow". If in some moment of lunacy the cashier says yes, then word spreads like wildfire and soon, every person in all 36 checkout queues are saying and demanding the same thing.

They always call your next of kin and relatives, but on many occasions the prisoner declines the offer. They cannot contact anyone without your consent, and when funds arrive they will even buy your tickets for you. There are people today in lengthy terms in the Immigration Detention Center, who have money and tickets arranged to go home by the Embassy, but choose not to do so because..... they know that there are arrest warrants waiting for them when they arrive back in the UK. it is laughable.

People going into the Consular office:-

'I have lost my credit card, I want a new visa card now please"

I have run out of money, cause when I came on holiday I never thought it would be this much. Can I have a loan".

I have lost my air ticket home and I fly tomorrow, and if you don't get me a new one I will break your legs"

"I have found out my wife is sha**ing someone else at home, can you dial 999 in England and have the ba**ard arrested"

"can you tell me where to buy some vinegar for my chips, they don't have vinegar for chips here do they"

I kid you not, you could write a best selling comedy book on what the Consular Office have to put up with.

They have had outsourcing forced upon them, it is not the 'fault' of the Embassy here, and as an extra kick in the slats, that out sourcing means they lose 6 job placements here, so those left are working all the hours God sends, to support a bunch of miserable gits as represented by many on this very thread. I never used to believe the stories the Consular staff told me until I heard them, and now I see the attitudes of the great british public replicated here on this very forum.

The British passport is a means of identification for those that wish to travel. it is not an insurance policy for you for when you <deleted> up. If you are mental and you are returned to the UK, then you get the money and come straight back to Thailand, what do you think can be done for you?

Many detainees 'act' mad as it scares the thai prisoners in the cell and they leave you alone.

I visited one guy who clearly had mental issues and the embassy paid for a full analysis by a BRITISH psychiatrist . They pay for medical tests and examinations. I have also been to see someone whom the Thai authorities had not notified anybody of for a week. This guy had 400K baht in the bank, and his ATM card in prison. I could not go and get the money out for him (15 mins) because in the past the same had been done and then the newly released guy says "he took 30K out to release me, but has taken an extra 10K out for himself as well", I am suing the British Government". The actions of some very bad people (and some of the comments on here display some with similar tendencies) ruin every service for everybody else. This guy spent an extra week in jail because of some a**hole drunk in the past.

FACT: As a Brit, your consular services will visit and do as much for you as they can, even when you call them the worst possible names when you meet them.

FACT: As some have suggested to the contrary on here the US Embassy staff WILL NOT visit, neither will they visit you every 8 weeks as a minimum. You are on your own. Big boys rules.

I hope that the more vorciferous of those amongst the posters here, one day find themselves in the slammer, and find that you actually are humbled by the help that you get from the consular staff, when everyone else in the world doesn't care if you die.

I have no idea of the circumstances surrounding this case, but it may also be that the guy was cuffed to the bars because he was trying to rape, beat or bite the other 20 guys in the cell, and there are no facilities to segregate him.

it is clear from reading this forum that many of you come on here just for a fight, but it is also evidently clear that you know nothing of what goes on.

Lastly, I do not know Howard, but what I will say is this. The guy does not deserve the public (his name is used in the first person, whilst you all hide behind your handles) slagging he is getting, and as a warning to you all, Internet laws are very very strict when it comes to defamation these days, and there are people on here who I am quite sure are guilty of defamation. Should Mr Miller decide to pursue any class action, upon receipt of a court order, this site must provide full details of you, your ISP details etc etc, and they WILL do it. Your ISP will provide your home address. So unless you operate out of a multitude of internet cafes, you really should not be so vicious with your on line attacks.

I would like to finish by wishing the guy in the case all the best, but know that when he is repatriated, he will be back within weeks, and lastly a very great thanks to the Consular Staff for the excellent work they put in on behalf of the most thankless group of people anybody has worked for.

I can comment, I don't do the work anymore, because i got pi**ed off with trying to help a bunch of selfless moronic individuals, most of whom want to blame everyone else for their self inflicted misfortunes, and want everyone else but themselves to take responsibility.

Well said.

"because i got pi**ed off with trying to help a bunch of selfless moronic individuals, most of whom want to blame everyone else for their self inflicted misfortunes, and want everyone else but themselves to take responsibility."so this is how you would describe a mentally ill person chained up in a police cell??

[philw]

"If you want to see dirty go down some of

the backstreets of most major cities in supposed first world countries.

"

you won't see a persom chained to jail bars and neglected and you don't have the same police attitude you get here. Action has now taken place because Drummond has done a "wikileaks" and for no other reason

Thanks CAF and well said.

Credit to Drummond for publicising this and shame, shame, shame to FCO and H.M. Hon. Consul for doing Sweet F.A.

[Deeral]

I think it would be nice if SOMEWHERE - here, Television or better still the Bangkok Post - Mr Howard gave a clear account of his role or lack of it - in this incident.

He seems to be relying on dismissive posts my himself and others claiming not to be him?

He is a very public figure in Pattaya and I think it would be in his own interest to set the record straight, rather than trying to address his critics a stupid.

[Tolley]

It has to be a good thing that stories like this are bought to the attention of the public.

Even if there were some minor inconsistencies in the story it is a salutory reminder to all that we are personally responsible for our own behaviour.

It is also nice to know that there are people out there like the lady who helped out who care enough to make a difference .

However it should not come as a surprise to anyone that the Thai penal and judicial system is primitive and barbaric. There are any number of books on the subject.

As for the consular officials I would not expect them to be able to do too much other than give the basic assistance at the most.

People are living in a dream world if they think that consular officials are going to come riding on white horses to rescue them if they come a cropper in a foreign land.

[Beetlejuice]

"If you want to see dirty go down some of

the backstreets of most major cities in supposed first world countries.

"

you won't see a persom chained to jail bars and neglected and you don't have the same police attitude you get here. Action has now taken place because Drummond has done a "wikileaks" and for no other reason

Well said.

If not for the exposure of this case by Andrew and the publishing of those horrific heart breaking photos, I am sure this poor man would have been left to die. We should all be thankful to this journalist and other persons that have cared.

I accuse the FCO and the Thai prison service of trying to sweep this matter under the carpet hoping that the problem would discretely disappear and no one would notice.

I wonder how many more unfortunates have been in this dilemma or are in the same situation now whose cases have not been brought to light? Extremely worrying that there maybe our nationals forgotten and rotting away behind lock doors in stinking Thai hellholes.

I mean, surely being on overstay is not a crime against humanity, it is? Does running into trouble, ill planning or running out of funds warrant the death penalty? Disgraceful, is this whole episode of bureaucracy at it`s worse.

[Deeral]

"If you want to see dirty go down some of

the backstreets of most major cities in supposed first world countries.

"

you won't see a persom chained to jail bars and neglected and you don't have the same police attitude you get here. Action has now taken place because Drummond has done a "wikileaks" and for no other reason

Well said.

If not for the exposure of this case by Andrew and the publishing of those horrific heart breaking photos, I am sure this poor man would have been left to die. We should all be thankful to this journalist and other persons that have cared.

I accuse the FCO and the Thai prison service of trying to sweep this matter under the carpet hoping that the problem would discretely disappear and no one would notice.

I wonder how many more unfortunates have been in this dilemma or are in the same situation now whose cases have not been brought to light? Extremely worrying that there maybe our nationals forgotten and rotting away behind lock doors in stinking Thai hellholes.

I mean, surely being on overstay is not a crime against humanity, it is? Does running into trouble, ill planning or running out of funds warrant the death penalty? Disgraceful, is this whole episode of bureaucracy at it`s worse.

"

Edited December 10, 2010 by Deeral

[Deeral]

My God Fathers, I didnt realise so many folkl really believe everything they read from a hack.? do they swallow every word in the sun, the mail and, God Forbid, the Sport as gospel?

this might be a bit long but please bear with me, I am getting old Let me first qualify my post here and also be very open so that there is no questionas to my intent. i am a friend of Howard miller. I work with him on the radio project and enjoy his company. he is a decent chap, despite the easily formed opinions of those who have never met him and above all he is honourable as a person. i am not asking to debate these matters, they are facts.

Whilst I am not employed by HM Government nor privy to his daily dealings, nor the facts of this case, i do consider myself as well informed as Drummond in his sensationalised story, which as usual is aimed at a sale to support him and his tribe and their life over here. he is after all an unemployed hack who "freelances" which I assure you is in no way dis-similar a method of employment to those lovely ladies who call to me from the beach on my way to the bank, they too embelish the truth to achive remuneration. Unless of course I really am a sexy hansum man.

HM cannot reply in detail to you. Nor can he even confide detail to me or any of his friends. the code of conduct is laid out by the Home Office, ( or what ever they call it today) and these matters are confidential. were they not then he would be allowed to confide in us all, the intimate details of any Brit who is in need of consular or embassy services which you, and i would then complain as an invasion of privacy.

He, and all his collegues report to the big boys on any information supplied to them regarding Brits in distress or need here. The course of action is then determined and sent back to them for them to action. That is a simple fact and is available to us all, along with the Home Office guidelines, rules and modus operandi, in fact you can google it. just as in any postion of responsibility, the operative, in this case Howard, would be required by his masters to act in a pre-described manner and no other. he would then also be required to report back.

Neither you, I or Lord Drummond of the tin hut know the inside story on this matter. How it was being dealt with, how long it had been in hand and how difficult it had or had not been to make arrangements to suit the thai authorities (and this of course is Thai soil, thai law and not the UK). We are not privy to the conversations held between the gentleman and Howard, nor to his wants or needs. So ALL of that section of this sensationalised story is guesswork and 3rd hand info.

So a lady comes along on her white horse and saves the day.

And whether or not the UK Offices would have handled the matter similarly or had the matter in hand, the outcome of the woman's actions is that the distressed gentleman is now, hopefully, more comfortable and getting help. I am sure she meant well and should be applauded for her endevours. She is lucky that she doesnt have to work within any perameters, I am sure that our Home Office boys wish that they to could act similarly and perhaps if they were not working on hundreds of cases a week, many of similar misfortune, they would be able to do so. The Royal Thai police, however, are, I am sure, equally adapt at running their laws and prisons according to their law, and this is their country. ( again i refer you to the procedures outlined by the home office for interaction with foreign national police on non UK soil.

In response to the "When you visited him, did he display the sort of very overt psychotic behavior that was readily apparent to the woman who did rescue him?" as far as i am aware, neither person, the lady or Hm are qualified to answer that question.

WHAT I DO KNOW: is that this chap was photgraphed in some local rag a month or so back, living on the beach. he was a a known homeless person in Pattaya. ( we have many here). We have failedd businessmen, failed husbands, broke drunks, broke druggies, visa overstayers, hippies, weirdos and nut-cases. they are all a part of the city. You only need to wander around at 3 in the morning to see them sleeping, or 9 in the morning having their first pick me up of the day. trust me, we have a lot of rejects in our midst.

In a thai nick at mid-day, if I were the least bit unshy, I too would strip off. You may not be aware of the fact that it gets quite hot in there, many to a small cell, no a/c or fan.

As an aside to the HM story, which is obviously designed to feed the piranhas, I have a few questions.

Isnt charity only charity when its done without the seeking of publicity and recognition? after that doesnt it become more of a good deed? I dont really understand the relationship between saving this chap from his distress and calling a local hack with the story. I really dont. but maybe thats just me. I think she was wonderful and as i have said I applaud her actions.

Couldnt Drummond have made a credible story without slagging of Howard, here and on his three running posts on his fred? Is there a potential to increase the story value by adding unproven, sourceless attacks? of course there is... in the hack eat hack world of media prostitution.. its all about the money.. and just like the ladies I wave to on beach road.... the more BS they fire at us, the more chance they have of us believing it

Good on ya Tom

TEll it like it is.

I have replied to a similar letter written by Tom here:.

http://www.andrew-dr...ence-a-comment/

However for the sake of readers of this particular thread I will say the following. Nowhere in two stories and one comment blog have I slagged off Howard Miller. In fact I have only written about him in my comment piece.Someone is therefore very paranoic. I myself find him a personable guy. That is not the point.

At best I have stated that because of his experience as a police volunteer he is unlikely to carry much authority against colleaues of his former bosses and indeed yesterday he was reported to have stood to attention while talking to police there.

Secondly I am a journalist and in this instance was the conduit for this story and the pictures which were taken by Benny Moalfi. I have no particular financial interest but I serve most of the newspapers in the UK. Tom is unaware of the role of freelance journalists. They are in the main journalists who do not want to suffer the constraints of working for particular newspapers. In actual fact most British journalists in Thailand are freelance. Most of the full time foreign correspondents disappeared years ago. Probably 70 per cent of the content of newspapers in the UK come from 'freelance journalists' or agency. But Secret Tom would not know that.

Secondly the woman Tracy who Tom sarcastically refers to as coming in on her white horse has never sought publicity and she asked me not to name her. She allowed me to use her first name only after I told her that her full name in connection with the story was already up on Facebook. Secret Tiom's comment are tacky and ill researched.

The fact is she did in two hours what Howard could not do in two weeks. If Howard actually supports secret-tom's letter then he is a bigger fool than I think he is.

I do not need a lecture on how the FCO works. I have been dealing with them for 35 years. I write positive stories about them when they come to me. The FCO would certainly not put in Secret Tom as a defence witness.

Howard cannot speak for himself. Well he has here already with the similar crass suggestion that this story is just about a journalist making money! I mean what is is that he does with Pattaya One News? Well not obviously revealing the appalling conditions this man underwent. Secret Tom refers to the man as a 'nutter'. He also provides info which I know, and which incidentally the foreign office asked me not to reveal!

So yes. He has done it before. Yes he has been deported before, but he was never in this condition.

So is this also Howard talking. Certainly has the sound of an Essex DJ. Leave the nutter where he is? Why dig a hole for Howard when there is not one there?

Lord Drummnd, et al..

there was one error in my post, ( unlike you i am happy to admit), i called them the Home Office, when in fact they are the foreign office, that is or was due to the fact that I have no dealings with them.

"the white horse" I am surprised at the ignorance of both you and your footsoldiers here. the white horse.. refers to the old English nursery song, I suggest you google it. the "lady on the white horse" was Godiva or Elizabeth the 1st, and people were travelling for miles out of RESPECT to see her, as she was seen as a saviour in many ways. you are mistaking such a phrase for the ones often used of a "knight in shining armour" because it either suits you or you dont know the difference. wheras you leapt upon it as an intimation of sarcasm which it wasnt. i also went on to say that she did a dam_n fine job. You conveniently left that out of the reference. I have actually met the lady, on several occasions. I am fully aware of her chrity, named I thinka fter her daughter, and its activity within the city and have attended several functions which raise funds for her.

I don' t come from Essex, ( God Forbid) although i did date an Essex girl once, and very nice she was too as long she didnt speak

I am not howard Miller in any guise. 1.. I have plenty of hair, 2.. I am not fat and 3..I am hansum, ( ask any of your freelance collegues)

you HAVE slagged miller off, conveniently you limit your denial to certain parts of your writing and not the whole which i suppose in your eyes exonorates you

I am fully aware of how freelancers work thank you, as i wrote in your delightful site, I meet them every day. We have quite a few in pattaya

I will give you one modicum of respect and that is that you did not delete my response in your own blog. I was, to be honest, impressed with that.

You have the writing skills that many of us would envy, and the ability to source and report that could do you credit. My arguement never was that you are incompetant, it was that you prostitute your skills in such a way as to generate a 50% factful and 50% fiction story which, I suppose, leads you to beleive that the UK rags will be more eager to buy, at the expense of others who do not have the ability to respond.

and I have never referred to this chap as a nutter.

"" don' t come from Essex, ( God Forbid) although i did date an Essex girl once, and very nice she was too as long she didnt speak"

and you expect to be taken seriously???

BTW - 5 posts?

Where did you spring from

Not so much a "White horse" as a "stalking horse"?"

[healthcaretaker]

Do you suppose that a Thai in similar circumstances in the UK illegally would be stripped naked and chained to the bars?

Of course not, if you are a poor Thai, you will not allowed entry at the UK immigration.

[Deeral]

Do you suppose that a Thai in similar circumstances in the UK illegally would be stripped naked and chained to the bars?

Of course not, if you are a poor Thai, you will not allowed entry at the UK immigration.

I suppose you work for UK immigration?

[Deeral]

Whatever his obligations as Honorary Consul - this incident raises a lot of issues concerning Mr Howard.

He is a public figure and a volunteer policeman.

This raises serious questions about My H's conduct as a policeman as well.Does he consider the chaining of ANYBODY in this way as appropriate?

One has to ask how suitable he is to represent UK interests in any form in THailand.

THe public also need to know about this man as they may require his services at some time - whatever they may be.

I think perhaps it might be an idea to get a comment from the British Embassy on this.

[theoldgit]

Do you suppose that a Thai in similar circumstances in the UK illegally would be stripped naked and chained to the bars?

Of course not, if you are a poor Thai, you will not allowed entry at the UK immigration.

I suppose you work for UK immigration?

With a sweeping, inaccurate comment like that, I doubt it.

[Deeral]

Do you suppose that a Thai in similar circumstances in the UK illegally would be stripped naked and chained to the bars?

Of course not, if you are a poor Thai, you will not allowed entry at the UK immigration.

I suppose you work for UK immigration?

With a sweeping, inaccurate comment like that, I doubt it.

It's a shame that that poster seems to consider that the comment is both witty and contributes to the debate. I suppose they just felt left out.

[NALAK]

i have sent this to most national tv station and newspapers also various mental health organisations.

HM you have to dance to a differnt tune now, you left this man in this state, i for one have put a complaint into the FCO about the guys treatment. One compalint about the Consular in Samui and that was it. maybe you were to busy at one of your many other business interests.

PLEASE can you put pressure on the British goverment to get this man home. he

is mentally ill and chained naked in a Thai Jail. Mr howard miller british

consular has visited him 4 times and done nothing. He is after all a British

citezen.

DET please pass onto national papers, somebody has to help this guy get

home.

Edited December 10, 2010 by bonobo
changed font size

[theoldgit]

It's a shame that that poster seems to consider that the comment is both witty and contributes to the debate. I suppose they just felt left out.

[theoldgit]

i have sent this to most national tv station and newspapers also various mental health organisations.

HM you have to dance to a differnt tune now, you left this man in this state, i for one have put a complaint into the FCO about the guys treatment. One compalint about the Consular in Samui and that was it. maybe you were to busy at one of your many other business interests.

PLEASE can you put pressure on the British goverment to get this man home. he

is mentally ill and chained naked in a Thai Jail. Mr howard miller british

consular has visited him 4 times and done nothing. He is after all a British

citezen.

DET please pass onto national papers, somebody has to help this guy get

home.

Whilst I admire your objectives, with the greatest of respect, a poorly written note like this is going to get nowhere.

[spidermike007]

Can you imagine the uproar from Thai people if this happened to a Thai national in the U.K. ?

You are absolutely correct about that presumption. They would be screaming bloody murder! It is a fact of life that the Thai

people are scared to death of farengs. It manifests itself in many, many peculiar ways. But an outward disdain for foreigners,

and an omnipresent belief in our inferiority is something that all foreigners who live here have to contend with. Though I realize

it is an unpopular, and fabulously incorrect thing to say, the Thai people may have been better off, had they been colonized. I

am convinced they would be far more cosmopolitan, far more tolerant, less xenophobic, more open minded, and perhaps far

more progressive as a result. Just look at the neighboring countries that suffered that fate.

You mean open minded like you :lol:

Stunning insight - shouldn't you be on the Daily Mail board ??

Oh and just noticed your last statement - must have missed it due to the tears of laughter. Neighboring countries ?? Burma, Laos, Cambodia are shining examples of the good colonization can do......

You fail to see what Malaysia, Indonesia, India, and Vietnam have accomplished. You mention only the failures, without looking for the root causes of the failures. Laos is a very complicated issue, and Burma may have done quite well had it not been for Than Shwe. Look a little deeper. Superficial anaylsis never reveals much.

[Deeral]

I believe Mr Howard is a common site in Pattaya; may I suggest that all you Pattaya residents go up him and ask him for an explanation?

[NALAK]

Mr Drummond

As you are around, and I see on line now, I would like to thank you for clarifying that nobody knew of this mans incarceration until the 23rd. Now I would like to ask you to comment on the content of the posts that your article has generated. The utter slagging off of the Consular Staff. Was this your intention?? Are you happy as a journalist with the reaction that your article has generated? Whilst the situation of this man was most dreadful, are you truly aware of what really goes on in the penal system here and how much beyond the control of the dedicated hard working Ladies and Gents at the Embassy it is? Your views on this are, to me at least, both important and appropriate, as regardless of your intent, some very fine people who have completed another year of hard work on behalf of a mostly ignorant, selfless British public in Thailand, have had their professionalism brought in to question, and I for one know for a fact, this is not their fault'.

Care to interview me?

i seem to remember a hard working Bitish Embassey member staff doing his hard work in Soi Cowboy last year i think it was, reported on here anyway. harworking what a joke, they messed up my visa application for wife just because the lazy so and so behind the counter would not turn the page in her passport and see visa extension in her passport. even though i told him. got full apology but shows what a bunch of useless uper class twits they are. a representative of my goverment saw this man in this state for 4 times and did nothing. so people who do not agree with you are ignorant and selfess. those dedicated harworking staff have jobs to die for ,over paid and a full pension at 50 index linked and usually a pay off at the tax payers expense. the idiots who took drugs at full moon party were treated far better than this, but that was a differnt Hounary Consular. conflict of interest or not Honary council privvy to private information with a newspaper and tv station.!!!!!!!!!!! beggars beleif .

why was this not reported on Pattaya one at the time? might have helped get the guy out.

Edited December 10, 2010 by NALAK

[geriatrickid]

[Good penultimate paragraph but nowhere has it been assumed he did not want help. And don't automatically accept anything Miller says. His latest post is an embarrassment to the UK foreign office. Diplomatic he is not. He should concentrate on his business interests and not use his tourist police and embassy "job" to further his own interests.

Fair enough criticism, but it doesn't recognize one of the major obstacles when trying to help: The mentally ill either refuse the help or are unwilling to recognize that they are ill. Mr.Miller is not a social worker nor trained in the delivery of mental health services. That's not an excuse, but I'm trying to be fair here. I did my rotation on a psych ward and didn't last long. It's a job that requires a special kind of person and special skills. In this case, I think one of the reasons the person was released so quickly is because of Mr. Drummond's article. Not to be too dramatic, he made the difference. The question is what now? This guy is reported to have AIDS and to be mentally ill. I do not think the lady that took him out is going to be able to handle him and it would be interesting to see an update on this in a week.

Ok, now that there has been a clarification of some facts, the 4 visits, the bringing of food and water, can people stop blaming the embassy/consul for a situation it cannot control? The detention and manner of detention is entirely under the control of the Thais. The consul/embassy cannot wave a magic wand and have him released.

Yes, for that you need to be a civilian volunteer with a humanitarian foundation and a few hours to spend.

Must be her magic wand is much more powerful.

Point two, these posted "facts" are certainly without corroboration, and, besides, seem woefully inadequate in the first place. Someone in the deplorable state of health that was obviously in couldn't even warrant an every other day visit? The "fact" post actually just generated more questions as to whether the actions taken by the embassy/consul were appropriate and timely, but will those questions be answered? Without them, we can't know if the situation was something "it cannot control".

We may not learn what happened as instead, we get stonewalled.

Again, I think Mr. Drummond had the magic wand. Your concerns are valid. However, a consul cannot be expected to make daily visits to one person. There are a number of equally serious cases that pop up on a daily basis. If a consul focused on one case, he or she would be forced to let other cases slip, right? It's a rationing of resources. However, you raise a sidepoint: The strategy employed by all of the embassies and consuls in these cases. On Phuket we had cases in the last year of :crazy" Sewdes and Germans wandering about getting into trouble. There wasn't much the respective consuls or embassies could or perhaps would do.

"The UK taxpayers have made clear their views on the provision of services in foreign countries: They want the services cut back. " - this is of course utter nonsense.Furthermore if it is intended seriously as some kind of justification or even mitigation then the poster is sadly wide of the mark.

No it is not. The situation will only worsen between now and 2015 as the budget cut takes hold. The FCO will see a 24% real terms reduction in the resource budget, and a 55% real terms reduction in capital spending. The Department's Administration budget will be reduced by 33%.

Oct. 6, Reuters; "former diplomats and opposition politicians say the already lean Foreign Office budget will face further cuts, possibly spelling the closure of some overseas missions. Jeremy Greenstock, a former British ambassador to the UN, said cuts to the Foreign Office budget, dating back to the early 1990s, had gone too far"

It's not just the budget cuts, but also the FX impact on the UK pound. Just as expats are feeling the impact of FX cganges so too have the FCO budgets. All of the budget cuts have been magnified several times by this factor.

In respect to my comment about UK taxpayers not wanting to support FCO activity, sorry but its true. look at the opinion surveys. FCO services outside of the EU are not seen as a priority. Why would they be when the majority of the population doesn't leave the EU territory? Look at the stories that run in the Daily Mail and readers comments. Or read some of the comments in Andrew Sparrows blog over at the Guardian or at the Spectator. http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5705688/cutting-the-foreign-office.thtml

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to see what the opinion of someone with a social work background is on this subject. Isn't Mario the mod a social worker or a former social worker?

Edited December 10, 2010 by geriatrickid

[softgeorge]

"If you want to see dirty go down some of

the backstreets of most major cities in supposed first world countries.

"

you won't see a persom chained to jail bars and neglected and you don't have the same police attitude you get here. Action has now taken place because Drummond has done a "wikileaks" and for no other reason

Well said.

If not for the exposure of this case by Andrew and the publishing of those horrific heart breaking photos, I am sure this poor man would have been left to die. We should all be thankful to this journalist and other persons that have cared.

I accuse the FCO and the Thai prison service of trying to sweep this matter under the carpet hoping that the problem would discretely disappear and no one would notice.

I wonder how many more unfortunates have been in this dilemma or are in the same situation now whose cases have not been brought to light? Extremely worrying that there maybe our nationals forgotten and rotting away behind lock doors in stinking Thai hellholes.

I mean, surely being on overstay is not a crime against humanity, it is? Does running into trouble, ill planning or running out of funds warrant the death penalty? Disgraceful, is this whole episode of bureaucracy at it`s worse.

The photo is really quite disturbing. Reminder of the POW's who worked on the death railway and thire captors were eventually charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity. This guy looks in even worse condition than some of the prisoners.