The Truth About Dining In Chiang Mai

[CMX]

My conclusions come from only one year of eating here. They are posted by one who has developed tastes as a child in the United States and as an adult from reading and using many cookbooks. Also, I lived in France for three years. These influences make me entirely biased. I think that we all are.

I leave Thai foods to last. Initially, I want to mention the popular places, those constantly appearing in our threads because they satisfy the homeland hungers in us. We could almost call them “unhealthy favorites,” unless we were blunt and said “fatty foods.” That's because, fish and chips are deep fried, the former breaded in order to hold more fat in the dish. (In spite of our raves, most chips in this town are pre-cut and frozen in plastic bags, probably from Makro; in any case, Thai potatoes are not much to excite.) Ground meats which we prefer are laden with fats. The trouble is that these foods, common enough, are generally offered at what would be bargain rates at home. Unlike Thai offerings, meats may be given in great portions. We call this good, and marvel in delight. So do I, from time to time.

More sophisticated offerings involve a different customer, or at least a customer in a different mode. Because the owner is aiming at a “higher” culinary standard, he/she must purchase even better western ingredients. Already costly, many in the specialty line must raise prices. Their trick, if there is any hope for a compromise, is to lean on native ingredients. This is hard to do for lamb – well, you can fill in the blanks, scores of them. Still, by now one is easily paying at least 200 baht and upwards.

In neither of the above categories have I found an extraordinary quality at an extraordinary price, though I find one or the other fairly easily. Owners are constrained by reality.

The third category, which I have yet to test, includes the upscale offerings. Given their monstrous prices, they must lead the rest and indeed are listed on the national evaluations. But I have no idea if they would be regarded as reasonably priced compared to restaurants in Europe. Perhaps someone has recent experience of the Mandarin Oriental's offerings and some Michelin one-stars – or Red bibs?

From what I have discovered, following the advice of certain posters whom I have classified as being interested in foods as I am, there are no super bargains in western foods, though there is plenty of room to discuss quality/price agreements. The opposite is true of Thai meals. For one thing, Thais apparently revere vegetables, for they do not murder them; rather, they allow vegetables to contribute. Thais do not cook fish to be dry and tough. Thais know garlic. This is a different experience, to be sure, often soups or stews. Meats and fish come in smaller quantities by far and are often ground or minced. Many of us are troubled by the degree of spices.

Still, there is a restaurant out in the countryside on the new road to St. Kamping (my spelling). Go in a group and order widely; on the weekend go at 11:30. There you will have feasted – very, very well, and cheaply. Don't skip the frog. If you've a friend who speaks the Lanna, take them along!

[caf]

Very interesting and spot-on observations.

Everyone has different tastes in food but I think that for those that are reasonably competent chefs themselves and have eaten some good dishes elsewhere in the world the choices in chiangmai are somewhat disappointing.

[PlanetX]

Thai food in Thailand is good value and western food in Thailand is not as good of value (and a majority of western favorites can be unhealthy)

good observation

[IanForbes]

I have to agree with others here. That is why I stick with Thai food for 95% of my meals. It's mostly healthy and non fattening... even though the cooking fats are not up to good standards.

[lingnoi1977]

Fair observations and I think accurate.

However, I personally think there is a huge gap somewhere between street food and the next level up.

I put myself in the shoes of the importer, the providore, the cafe owner etc. - do they stick to their guns and provide what they believe is quality or do they succumb to the general "eat to live" mentality of the greater eating public? Which comes first - chicken or egg? Is the consumer being guided/educated by the food industry or is the consumer dictating what the industry provides by speaking from the pocket?

It's a complicated topic but I fear the latter is true. Just look at the volume of responses to a 'budget' food post.

I will always admire and support those who provide quality at any level, mentioned above by the OP.

[LivinLOS]

Having just arrived here from Phuket, I am amazed at the price (how cheap) good normal western fare is here.. So perhaps the idea that everything is expensive is just relative. Its quite easy to drop a few 1000 baht a head on a meal (with wine) in Phuket and I eat out pretty often. Phuket has starters costing more than many of the entire meals I eat here.

I havent yet found high end fine dining, but I admit to not yet looking (suggestions on a quality steakhouse ??) as I am still learning the spots around town. But 'pub grub' and above (I would say Dukes is higher than average in that western fare simple style) seems very inexpensive to this new arrival.

I do eat maybe 80% Thai, but I like to have variety.. Be it street food, 'quality Thai', or western.

[LJW]

I have to agree with others here. That is why I stick with Thai food for 95% of my meals. It's mostly healthy and non fattening... even though the cooking fats are not up to good standards.

Most Thai foods are VERY FATTENING. Like desserts, rice, noodles, curries, etc.

If you travel in any small Thai community, you will see many many fat people, mostly just sitting somewhere trying not to be noticed.

Sad, but true.

[Ulysses G.]

Maybe, I am eating the wrong Thai dishes, but I do not see many tasty vegetables in most dishes unless it is a "J" vegetarian restaurant (which is where I usually eat Thai food).

In fact, if I want good healthy vegetables with a meat dish , I usually have to go to a Western-oriented restaurant that serves Thai food to get them.

There are notable exeptions - like som tham or stir fried pumpkin - but in general, I do not think that commonly available Thai food is all that healthy.

[richard10365]

The food in Chiang Mai, Thai and Farang taste excellent to me. I'm also happy with the variety of choices as well as the variety of prices.

When I first came here 4 years ago most of my meals were prepared at home. Now I prefer to eat out or buy cooked and eat at home.

Thai markets in Chiang Mai usually have excellent taste and the lowest priced food in the city. My favorite market is the Sansainoi market (Sam Yak)on the way to Chiang Rai just past the ring road. I shop there three to four times a week.

[CMX]

I offer no brief for the oils used in cooking here. But judicious tasting leads to places which are sparing in the oils and fats. I am not one who accepts that carbohydrates, particularly complex carbs, are responsible for fat Thais.

Problem here nowadays is sugar. Sugar, sugar, sugar. In everything.

To make matters worse, McDonald's opened today at Rimping. It's a Monday with the usual fair-like atmosphere. What a jam-up. And Thais by the hundreds getting take-away. Lots of French fries, I bet. Great gobs of ground meats.

The country restaurant I favor offers bowls of fresh raw green vegetables from their own garden. Green vegetables I get in a number of dishes, quite a bit. But yes, the V restaurants are best.

Edited December 20, 2010 by CMX

[neilrob]

I'm amazed at some of the comments above. Fortunately other posters have found out that CM is blessed with an extraordinarily wide range of good food at remarkably reasonable prices (which does not mean there isn't some bad food around, particularly in tourist haunts). The excellent range includes (of course) very good Thai cuisine. But also, for example, remarkably good Western and Japanese food at prices well below those you'd pay in Japan or a Western country. I'm not talking about places like McDonalds or Dukes. If, like some posters above, you think that CM does not have some excellent value Western cooking, not loaded with fat, then you just haven't been looking. Let me suggest just a few (among many) examples, all very reasonably priced: Oregano (Italian & Thai), La Terrasse (French), Nine Lives (Japanese) and Noi's Cuisine (for really cheap good Italian food---including for example a tender and tasty steak for less than 100B).

[jayjay0]

Well I really can't say myself. There are places I am quite satisfied with. And some I am not satisfied with.I how ever can understand others not being so satisfied.

The main reason I am so easily satisfied is I never took the time to train my senses to like some thing I didn't like or to dislike some thing I liked.

I have a friend who did that and now he cooks a lot for himself. Fortunately for him he really enjoys cooking. He has some great recipes.

Pretty hard to judge prices. To do that you need some kind of a starting point. If it is a mountain village Dukes would be a fortune. If it was down town Los Angeles Dukes would be a real bargain. Or you could be like one poster that loved the pizza at this one place he said it was fantastic but he wont buy any more because they won't give him a discount. obviusly cost is all that matters. (I have eaten the fabulous pizza and will only buy it if the wife wants it not what i would rave about.)

To each there own. Thanks for the OP always nice to see what others think.

[Ulysses G.]

I can remember when Chiang Mai did not even have one decent Western restaurant and everyone used to pray for McDonald's and Pizza Hut.

Now we are blessed with plenty of decent Japanese, acceptable Indian, good French, good American and English restaurants and other types as well.

Chiang Mai is not Paris, London, Melbourne or San Francisco, but, I am not complaining.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[CMX]

Perspective is all. Yep.

All I have suggested is that western offerings here are generally less expensive than in the West and that I have yet to find spectacularly good food as a particular bargain. Or that bargain food is particularly good. And that given the cost of ingredients that suit farang tastes, this is no surprise.

Bargain excellence, to tell the truth was, when and where I grew up, usually discovered in "ethnic restaurants" in the United States. What with all the chains today, it is rare, and generally such places upgrade overnight if successful.

I would argue that in France, with so many independent restaurants, the opportunities are many for those working within the Euro economy. As is the case here with native food for us all.

[Ulysses G.]

Perspective is all. Yep.

All I have suggested is that western offerings here are generally less expensive than in the West and that I have yet to find spectacularly good food as a particular bargain. Or that bargain food is particularly good. And that given the cost of ingredients that suit farang tastes, this is no surprise.

I agree with much of this, but things are so much better food-wise than when I made the decision to live here, that I am grateful for what we do have. However, believe me, I am all for quality to keep on improving.

[Mapguy]

Perspective is all. Yep.

All I have suggested is that western offerings here are generally less expensive than in the West and that I have yet to find spectacularly good food as a particular bargain. Or that bargain food is particularly good. And that given the cost of ingredients that suit farang tastes, this is no surprise.

I agree with much of this, but things are so much better food-wise than when I made the decision to live here, that I am grateful for what we do have. However, believe me, I am all for quality to keep on improving.

Yep! Yep! Chiang Mai is a very unusual provincial town with an extraordinary number of decent eateries of various sorts. Most, unless you really want to get silly with the five-star bit, are very, very reasonable.

Thai restaurants are fascinating. Some are rotten; others great. My nominatio nfor the most curious and apparently popular street side (Choke! Choke!) place is the guy who sets up evenings on Huey Kaew at Sirimangkalajan. Anyway, it astonishes me that so many are able to stay in business. That is a very tough business. I just wish some restauranteurs would take criticism better with less self-promotion! Anyway, cha·cun à son goût

And, of course, Bon Appétit!!

[LJW]

I have to agree with others here. That is why I stick with Thai food for 95% of my meals. It's mostly healthy and non fattening... even though the cooking fats are not up to good standards.

As I mentioned in a previous post you made, Thai foods can be very fattening. Only eating vegetables is your only choice for 'healthy'. Desserts are very fattening, as are the curries and anything else with Coconut Milk. Rice and noodles are considered to be very dangerous for diabetics. Thais like sugar and anything sweet. If you think Thai people are very healthy, go to any village and look around. The number of fat people you encounter will wake you up!

Sorry, I did not realized until now that 'my previous post' was in this thread

Edited January 12, 2011 by LJW

[ChangMaiSausage]

My daughter just returned from CM after two weeks of eating rice and noodles the ammount of weight she has put on is scary (she's only eleven) the airoplane scales said she had gained more than two kilo.

[Contractor]

I can remember when Chiang Mai did not even have one decent Western restaurant and everyone used to pray for McDonald's and Pizza Hut.

Not true. You might desire such "restaurants". You are not everyone.

[Ulysses G.]

used for talking about people in general

[WinnieTheKhwai]

"People in general" who visited Chiang Mai craved for a Mc Donalds?! Come on.

Even America Restaurant, de Bierstube, Dara Steak House, Ban Rai Steak house, JJ's, The Pub, The Irish Pub, the Hofbrauhaus, The Riverside and even $#(*&$ Daret Guesthouse way back then were better than Mc Donalds is today or will be in my lifetime!!

The only thing people in general may have been truly waiting for was reasonable Mexican, Mediterranean/Middle Eastern and Greek food.

(Come to think of it, we're still waiting for reasonable Greek food, and some more Middle Eastern options wouldn't go amiss either.)

Edited January 13, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry, but very few of those restaurants were even open back then and the Western food in the ones that were was far worse than the same places now.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Not sure how far back you were talking, but yes, during the reign of King Taksin the Great I bet people were craving American fastfood, from the moment they drew up the declaration of independence onwards.

( Also, the Rincome hotel was there.)

Edited January 13, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[LivinLOS]

(Come to think of it, we're still waiting for reasonable Greek food, and some more Middle Eastern options wouldn't go amiss either.)

What middle eastern options do we have ?? Dont suppose theres a Lebanese is there ??

[WinnieTheKhwai]

(Come to think of it, we're still waiting for reasonable Greek food, and some more Middle Eastern options wouldn't go amiss either.)

What middle eastern options do we have ?? Dont suppose theres a Lebanese is there ??

We have Jerusalem, Chabad House, and the kebab stand in front of Zoe in Yellow. I wish I was joking.

[Ulysses G.]

Not sure how far back you were talking

Way back when pretentious fast food bashers were still a rare species.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Not sure how far back you were talking

Way back when pretentious fast food bashers were still a rare species.

Were they ever?

I remember people complaining about Westernization because Chiang Mai had like three 7-Elevens, one at Kad Luang, one opposite Yupparat College and one on Nimmanhaemin. They had burgers, Dutch Mill yogurt and other anti-Thai things.

And when there wasn't Western food to complain about, then dishes like Yellow Curry or Sweet & Sour were totally not as Thai as sticky rice with green chili dip.

Come to think of it, I think the complainers never had it this good, with all this fancy stuff to complain about! In the old days, even finding something to whine about took effort!

(Cue: Someone digging up the Yorkshiremen Python clip)

Edited January 13, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[LivinLOS]

(Come to think of it, we're still waiting for reasonable Greek food, and some more Middle Eastern options wouldn't go amiss either.)

What middle eastern options do we have ?? Dont suppose theres a Lebanese is there ??

We have Jerusalem, Chabad House, and the kebab stand in front of Zoe in Yellow. I wish I was joking.

Sorry.. New to town.. Are either of the first 2 in any way decent. If so where would I find them ?

On Phuket I used to go to a 'dubai' restaurant and while it had a bit of an odd range, from almost greek to almost indian really, all in one place, it made a nice change of non Thai but not so plain 'western' also even if not connoisseur authentic.

Big fan of Mediterranean foods, Greek / Leb / some arabian dishes etc.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

We have Jerusalem, Chabad House, and the kebab stand in front of Zoe in Yellow. I wish I was joking.

Sorry.. New to town.. Are either of the first 2 in any way decent. If so where would I find them ?

Jerusalem Falafel is on Moon Muang Road, just before you get to Thapae Gate.

(It must have gone downhill though because Ulysses stopped praising it at least weekly. )

Chabad House is on Chang Klan road. (there's a map indication when you Google)

Big fan of Mediterranean foods, Greek / Leb / some arabian dishes etc.

I do have high hopes.. It seems Thaialnd gets far less American tourists and far more Middle Eastern ones. Eventually those should trickle up to Chiang Mai and when they do, that might lead to more food options!

[Sao Jiang Mai]

New Middle Eastern restaurant, Sahara, on Nimman road, opposite Warmup. For such a location and nice setting it is extraordinarily cheap...119 for a chicken kebab and rice which is a huge dish, I think it is 60 for a babaganoush or hummous with pita. Thai and euro food too...not bad and they are opening a bar upstairs next month, so should be interesting.

I think the dining choices here are great, Chez Marco is a lovely restaurant, Cote Jardin, Ginger...many many yummy places.