Arrested Thais Were On Cambodian Territory: Kasit

[yellow1red1]

The concurrent border dispute over the Gulf of Thailand border, in which huge resources of gas and minerals are at stake.

If the French-drawn maps of maritime borders, which were absurdly drawn to benefit Cambodia, are accepted, there is potential for great loss.

I wasn't aware that the 1904/1907 French maps included a maritime boundary, particularly one favouring Cambodia so much. Did the Thais accept that boundary at the time of the treaty? The Cambodian / Thai maritime claims (indicated in your diagram) are 1972 / 1973 claims.

I can understand the confusion with the land border, with the Preah Vihear temple on the Thai side of the watershed line.

This is the supposed underlying issue that everyone is getting their knickers in a twist about. Funnily enough though, it appears that the Thai population is too stupid to be clearly told that this is the REAL issue.

well the Thais on Ko Chang who are losing their land to park and military know 'really'

[yellow1red1]

The Abhisit government may never have come to power were it not for the Yellow shirts. Do those who support this government not have the slightest feeling of a debt of gratitude towards that particular group? If not, why?

When Sondhi greatly helped put Thaksin in powere he was very rewarded by Thaksin, millions of dollares in debt 'forgive', several of Sondhi's men got KEY governmenmt positions. even allowed his banker Viroj to steal millions from Thailand until Pridiyathorn, NOT Thaksin, stood against it.

Is everybody going to so utterly stupid to let Sobdhi and the rinky dink party wrap itself in flag of 'patriotism"???? worked for Thatcher and the Bushes, Hitler, too; but Thailand is smarter than that, eh?

Juts put the traitorous terrorist in jail. make him pay back all the money he stole!

edit

same jail cell with Thaksin would be dream come true

Whilst I don't wish to denigrate or diminish your enjoyment of any anti-Thaksin fantasies you or others may harbor in the small hours of the night, I humbly redirect you to the original question. It wasn't an open question, which means the answer is yes or no. An explanation of that answer will also be most welcome.

anti thaksdin & anti Sondhi ,, abhisit hmmm???

a yes or no question in Thailand politics, kidding right? next christmas if you don't shout or pout...

here goes anyway "no" why not? because instead making and breaking PM's they have decided run their own party,,,

they look rinky dink now, but how many countries have seen Nationalist campaigns grow very quickly,,,

watch for it,,, did we hear it first?

edit

newsmaker of 2011? brownshirt

Edited January 2, 2011 by yellow1red1

[mkawish]

The concurrent border dispute over the Gulf of Thailand border, in which huge resources of gas and minerals are at stake.

If the French-drawn maps of maritime borders, which were absurdly drawn to benefit Cambodia, are accepted, there is potential for great loss.

I wasn't aware that the 1904/1907 French maps included a maritime boundary, particularly one favouring Cambodia so much. Did the Thais accept that boundary at the time of the treaty? The Cambodian / Thai maritime claims (indicated in your diagram) are 1972 / 1973 claims.

I can understand the confusion with the land border, with the Preah Vihear temple on the Thai side of the watershed line.

actually,,, if the Thais can get it to Intl Crt, they will use the watershed line, the intl standard, which is NOT the cliff, 'duh'.

it;s the hilltop ridge a few kms inland, some Thai Generals, NOT Reds are very p oed the yellow dashed the agreement. they HAD a legal opinion for making that agreement,, ie the watershed line. GE, use mouse, look at altitude indicator

also, INTL court would give Ko Chang to Cambodia except for one saving grace. just look at that long thin sliver of Thai of border that runs down into Cambodia 'duh agin'

A past King 'gave' private land to Thais on Ko Chang and that 'would' have been honored by IC... BUT Thai Govt have expropriated the 'private' land for Park and Military,, uh OH --- but wot do I know the man who told me all this might not have been a Thai General, but he was driving a brand new MB

... anyways, this is the side issue, it's more about how the brown shirts,, whoops yellow shirts rinky dink party is looking at the past succeses of Thatcher, Bush, Hitler.. Who is the ONLY Patriotic party in the upcoming election??? NONE OF THE ABOVE! it's the pig trough... it';s ALL about the pig torough!

yellow1red1

Perhaps, there is still too much eggnog inside you from last Thanksgiving that renders

your pose almost unintelligible, to my humble self anyway.

Wanna try to retype what you said and exactly what you meant, again.

I really like to know what you really say and what you really mean what you say, ok? :jap:

[Prapoj]

Honest mistake? - nah - arrogance in the extreme! Cambodia's reaction has to set an example and thus theyr'e jailed in Phnom Penh. They may take a week or a month or more but they will get out. There will be some humble pie on Abhisit's side and there will be more protests by the Yellows to try to keep their plight alive and retain headlines - all so predictable. Back to the coffee....

If you are convicted of a criminal offence overseas does that disqualify you from sitting in Thai Parliament?

Some might argue that committing an offence in Thailand doesn't seem to disqualify people from sitting in Thai parliament, but you get my point.

From what appears on this thread, it seems that none of you, and may I repeat, none of you watched the televised excursion at the point of arrest and during the arrest by the Cambodian soldiers!

I did watch the televised scene as it developed. This is what I heard and saw on Thai news as it was televised....

1--The senator was on handphone to someone telling the person on the other end that they were on Thai farm land surrounded by Thai houses....

2--The group was not yet approaching the borderline....

3--The farmers on those parcels of land were also following them and pointing out their own farms that have been confiscated by the Cambodian soldiers.

4--The farmers there already wrote many complaint letters to the govt unit and Apisit but there has been not even one response yet.

5--The farmers also showed the Thai Cha-Note issued some fifty years back by the Thai govt with the Thai govt stamp and Thai govt insignia of Kruit.

6--The farmers also showed receipts proving that they have had been paying taxes on their parcels of land to the Thai revenue dept.

7--The senator and group were videoed standing with their back turning toward the Cambodian border which is about some kilometers away yet.

8--Farmers were asked, why do you and your villagers allow the Cambodians to settle in your land? The Thai farmers replied the Cambodians mostly were refugees encroaching on our land but we took pity on them because if they were to return to Cambodia at that time some thirty years ago, during the civil war, they would be killed by the ruling govt.

Last year, I also personally watched a public video showing Her Royal Majesty, the Queen and the Princess accompanied by the Red Cross personnel, visiting the Cambodian refugees which was recorded sometimes during 1980.

The Cambodian refugees were on Thai soil when Her Royal Majesty et al visited them and took extreme pity on them and their extremely poor health conditions. She at the time announced that the Thai govt should show mercy and should help those poor refugees.

Later on, when she realized that it was not possible for those refugees to return to Cambodia because of political persecution among other reasons, she asked that they be allowed to settle there until they were able to return to their own country safely.

Now some 30+ years later, many have had already forgotten who are the original owners of those pieces of land.

Even the minister of defense of Thailand himself, publicly announced during the govt interview chaired by PM Apisit himself that those areas belonged to the Cambodians. He himself lived in those eastern territories and worked there since childhood, he remembered well the Cambodians have been there for more than 20 years, living and working there. He confirmed publicly that those were Cambodian soil.

A news lady brought up the question--What about the ChaNote of the Thai farmers with the Thai govt seal issued by the Thai govt for those lands occupied by the Cambodians?

The minister retorted--What ChaNote, do you have that ChaNote to show me? I have never seen one. Such extreme incompetent and ignorant from a top govt official who is supposed to rule and protect Thailand and her citizen.

Then came the minister of security, SuThep, who was asked how did he surmise twenty-four hours earlier that the senator and his group were encroaching on Cambodian soil and therefore they were rightfully arrested by the Cambodian soldiers?

Mr. SuThep also retorted that he overheard the summary of events from his close aides incorrectly, that the senator and group were in fact arrested on Thai soil.

It is utterly incomprehensible to have conflicting reports on Where or where not is the Thai territory?

It appears to me that the current govt is ready to give all the surrounding lands around PraVeHarn temple to the Cambodians for some unknown reasons!!!!

In spite of the fact that it was decreed that only the PraVeHarn temple and the soil under it belongs to the Cambodian, and the territorial around the temple belongs to Thailand. At that date and time, General Marshall--SeeRit ThaNarRudd angrily decried to the nation that brothers and sisters, one day, one day in our life time, we shall take back the PraVeHarn temple which rightfully belongs to our ancestors and to us. The Thai people will not rest until we can take back what rightfully belongs to us.

We shall see if the Yellow shirts can bring out the truth concerning why Apisit's govt is so determined not to push or force this issue but on the contrary, is so eager to give away those surrounding areas and the enormous natural resources including minerals and crude under water to the Cambodian????

What is really behind all this madness? What are the secret govt deals between and among themselves and other govt?

And more importantly, which many not yet been made aware of, which French, U.S. and/or European companies have already been granted rights to mine in those disputed areas, if and when the Cambodian are granted those lands and their resources underneath?

Even though this enormous dispute does not concern many farang per se, but it is immensely interesting to watch WHAT IS REALLY BEHIND ALL THIS POLITICAL DEALING?

My personal opinion is, I would go with the evidence of the video taken some thirty years ago, when Her Royal Majesty, Her Royal Highness Princess Pra-Tape and the Red Cross personnel visiting and handling out articles to the Cambodian refugees.... that the land surrounding those areas rightfully belong to Thailand beyond any human reasonable doubt. And as it became clearer recently, the events were also personally recorded in Her Royal Highness Princess Pra-Tape's own handwriting, some 30+ years ago, in Her own personal journal that they all were utterly devastated witnessing human sufferings in such degree.

Well, we'll see, how all this will turn out at the end--Why is the current Thai govt so eager to give away Thai soil so readily and sheepishly to a tiny nation as Cambodia? Why is the current Thai govt so blindly not being concerned at all that during the past 3 years or so that the Cambodian have been building roads, houses and temples on Thai soil but the govt and military could not even careless about all these intruding and encroaching developments?

What hope does Thailand have to maintain the ownership of lands surrounding PraVeHarn, when Thai govt high ranking officials the like of minister of defense and the minister of security are so very ill informed of what does or does not rightfully belong to Thailand and all her people?

Very very sad indeed, I very humbly submit.

Wow, you are so typical yellow shirt PAD. Your news report must be from ASTV. Even better, if you also claim Angkor Wat as Thai.

[Pi Sek]

The Abhisit government may never have come to power were it not for the Yellow shirts. Do those who support this government not have the slightest feeling of a debt of gratitude towards that particular group? If not, why?

Very good question, and to answer it shows the main flaw with the Thai protest mentality. I don't think there is much of a "feeling of a debt of gratitude"... here's why:

Many people, including General Seh Daeng's daughter, went to and supported the PAD protests even though they did not agree with some of the leaders' demands. Most of them wanted Thaksin's proxies out on the grounds that they were no more than Thaksin's proxies - they didn't actually have any other policies than the ones Thaksin pushed for. The main one, of course, was to throw out the coup-installed Constitution and go back to the 1997 one. The 70% autocratic vote was something very few PAD supporters wanted, but they weren't going to start in-fighting until PPP were gone. PPP went, and then the PAD sort of faded away... the agenda of the various factions (e.g. the big one who hate Thaksin, the small one who don't want a popular mandate as the populace are too thick) were no longer as linked as they were during 2008. In other words, the "Yellow Shirts" was an umbrella group for the PAD, the NPP and the anti-Thaksin public. I think that is why there is no "feeling of a debt of gratitude" by the incumbent government towards the PAD - because the PAD is one extreme faction of the Yellow Shirt movement. (Particularly fitting for me today because, being Monday, I am wearing HRH The King's royal yellow shirt - and I have not approved of the PAD's actions since they invaded NBT in August 2008).

Now we are seeing many Red Shirts say that they are not interested in what Thaksin wants. Same same - they attended and supported the protests, which were ALL about Thaksin, even if many protesters (and even leaders) say they don't like or support him. The Red Shirt movement is an umbrella group for the UDD, the DAAD, TRT, PPP, PTP, some communist and Maoist revolutionaries and the disillusioned "anti-elite" public. Some of them think that the 1997 Constitution is flawed, but they want it back just because they feel "higher powers" imposed the 2007 one on them. It's not the new Constitution that bothers them, it was the fact that the new one was imposed on them without their approval. If PTP ever get back into power, I think we will see a similar divorce between the UDD and PTP after the former realises the latter's prior support was just PR, even if they were one and the same for quite some time.

[mkawish]

The last I heard,

the gathering is scheduled for January something,

about the third week or so, you are interested or something? LOL

Who is this 'academic' Wanwipa Charoonroj ? Burning effigies of people is unbefitting of an academic person and I feel he should be reminded of this. In my opinion the whole yellow shirt movement lose a lot of support through these base and uncouth displays.

The report isn't clear as to where the coffins and images were burnt - outside Government House or the Cambodian Embassy (where ML Wanwipa was protesting) or at both locations.

There doesn't seem to be a "whole yellow shirt movement" any more. That was a phenomenon of the Lumpini Park rallies and the sit-ins at Government House and the airports. Since then the yellows have split over the formation of the NPP and action to take on the border issues. The yellows were completely ineffectual during the red protests in March-May 2010. Some of them now want to finish themselves off altogether by taking their main aim at the PM and his government.

There has always been a yahoo element in the PAD, exemplified by the invasion of the NBT offices in 2008 and the squabbling with villagers on the border a year or so ago, and the leadership group seems to have drifted apart. A yahoo element is to be expected in a broad movement, whether it be the PAD or UDD, antiwar movements or environmentalist ones.

[Xangsamhua]

The last I heard,

the gathering is scheduled for January something,

about the third week or so, you are interested or something? LOL

Who is this 'academic' Wanwipa Charoonroj ? Burning effigies of people is unbefitting of an academic person and I feel he should be reminded of this. In my opinion the whole yellow shirt movement lose a lot of support through these base and uncouth displays.

The report isn't clear as to where the coffins and images were burnt - outside Government House or the Cambodian Embassy (where ML Wanwipa was protesting) or at both locations.

There doesn't seem to be a "whole yellow shirt movement" any more. That was a phenomenon of the Lumpini Park rallies and the sit-ins at Government House and the airports. Since then the yellows have split over the formation of the NPP and action to take on the border issues. The yellows were completely ineffectual during the red protests in March-May 2010. Some of them now want to finish themselves off altogether by taking their main aim at the PM and his government.

There has always been a yahoo element in the PAD, exemplified by the invasion of the NBT offices in 2008 and the squabbling with villagers on the border a year or so ago, and the leadership group seems to have drifted apart. A yahoo element is to be expected in a broad movement, whether it be the PAD or UDD, antiwar movements or environmentalist ones.

There's much more to this than I thought, as some posters, e.g. mkawish, have pointed out. The implications go well beyond a squabble over land around Phra Viharn. It will be very interesting to see how it pans out, and whether this is another instance of the PM lacking control over powerful elements whose primary interest is not that of the nation's integrity or welfare.

[yellow1red1]

The concurrent border dispute over the Gulf of Thailand border, in which huge resources of gas and minerals are at stake.

If the French-drawn maps of maritime borders, which were absurdly drawn to benefit Cambodia, are accepted, there is potential for great loss.

I wasn't aware that the 1904/1907 French maps included a maritime boundary, particularly one favouring Cambodia so much. Did the Thais accept that boundary at the time of the treaty? The Cambodian / Thai maritime claims (indicated in your diagram) are 1972 / 1973 claims.

I can understand the confusion with the land border, with the Preah Vihear temple on the Thai side of the watershed line.

actually,,, if the Thais can get it to Intl Crt, they will use the watershed line, the intl standard, which is NOT the cliff, 'duh'.

it;s the hilltop ridge a few kms inland, some Thai Generals, NOT Reds are very p oed the yellow dashed the agreement. they HAD a legal opinion for making that agreement,, ie the watershed line. GE, use mouse, look at altitude indicator

also, INTL court would give Ko Chang to Cambodia except for one saving grace. just look at that long thin sliver of Thai of border that runs down into Cambodia 'duh agin'

A past King 'gave' private land to Thais on Ko Chang and that 'would' have been honored by IC... BUT Thai Govt have expropriated the 'private' land for Park and Military,, uh OH --- but wot do I know the man who told me all this might not have been a Thai General, but he was driving a brand new MB

... anyways, this is the side issue, it's more about how the brown shirts,, whoops yellow shirts rinky dink party is looking at the past succeses of Thatcher, Bush, Hitler.. Who is the ONLY Patriotic party in the upcoming election??? NONE OF THE ABOVE! it's the pig trough... it';s ALL about the pig torough!

yellow1red1

Perhaps, there is still too much eggnog inside you from last Thanksgiving that renders

your pose almost unintelligible, to my humble self anyway.

Wanna try to retype what you said and exactly what you meant, again.

I really like to know what you really say and what you really mean what you say, ok? :jap:

sawy you not spake too gewd Engrish...

WB said the cliff is the watershed. The cliff is NOT the watershed. DUH < again

sometimes people get what they ask for! guess where the Intl Crt would rule? the watershed, - how say u understand?

The right wing PADS, imho, use this for election platform. This is a prediction, I could be wrong, we will see. Please, DO tell me I'm wrong.

Waxing patriotic has worked in several other political campaigns the World has seen, heil!

Add ban on foreign imports and workers, might as well die those yellow shirts, brown, seig.

Let's just see if Thailand can scrape through 2011 without the rise of the Nationalists plague.

Let's just see if Sondhi had a plan, or not, for forming a politcal party in 2009.

Was it a joke or will it be a nightmare?

Do you STILL need a translation, eh?

[whybother]

sawy you not spake too gewd Engrish...

WB said the cliff is the watershed. The cliff is NOT the watershed. DUH < again

sometimes people get what they ask for! guess where the Intl Crt would rule? the watershed, - how say u understand?

The right wing PADS, imho, use this for election platform. This is a prediction, I could be wrong, we will see. Please, DO tell me I'm wrong.

Waxing patriotic has worked in several other political campaigns the World has seen, heil!

Add ban on foreign imports and workers, might as well die those yellow shirts, brown, seig.

Let's just see if Thailand can scrape through 2011 without the rise of the Nationalists plague.

Let's just see if Sondhi had a plan, or not, for forming a politcal party in 2009.

Was it a joke or will it be a nightmare?

Do you STILL need a translation, eh?

Where did I say that the cliff IS the watershed?

Everything that I have read puts the temple on the Thai side of the watershed. The cliff *could be* the watershed, but the watershed may be between the cliff and the temple.

I have seen many places where the land angles up before dropping away at the cliff edge. And I have also seen places where the land angles down from a high point before dropping away at the cliff edge.

The cliff is irrelevant. The line of the watershed, whether it is at the line of the cliff or not, is what is relevant.

And that has nothing to do with politics. It's just geography.

Edited January 5, 2011 by whybother

[kiwiaussie]

The concurrent border dispute over the Gulf of Thailand border, in which huge resources of gas and minerals are at stake.

If the French-drawn maps of maritime borders, which were absurdly drawn to benefit Cambodia, are accepted, there is potential for great loss.

I wasn't aware that the 1904/1907 French maps included a maritime boundary, particularly one favouring Cambodia so much. Did the Thais accept that boundary at the time of the treaty? The Cambodian / Thai maritime claims (indicated in your diagram) are 1972 / 1973 claims.

I can understand the confusion with the land border, with the Preah Vihear temple on the Thai side of the watershed line.

A good recent article on the disputed maritime border can be found here:

http://www.clc-asia.com/analysis/the-struggle-between-thailand-and-cambodia-over-oil-and-gas-resources/

[Buchholz]

The concurrent border dispute over the Gulf of Thailand border, in which huge resources of gas and minerals are at stake.

If the French-drawn maps of maritime borders, which were absurdly drawn to benefit Cambodia, are accepted, there is potential for great loss.

A good recent article on the disputed maritime border can be found here:

http://www.clc-asia.com/analysis/the-struggle-between-thailand-and-cambodia-over-oil-and-gas-resources/

^ A good review of the real gem at stake.

The Cambodians pushing the envelope for quite some time in these 2009 reports that turned up on a search:

Govt urged to oppose French oil deal

The People's Assembly of Thailand on Thursday submitted a letter to Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, calling for the government to act against the oil drilling agreement being made between the Cambodian government and the French oil company Total covering a disputed area of the Gulf of Thailand.

It said Cambodia and France had reached an agreement over an oil and gas drilling concession in the overlapping Thai and Cambodian territorial waters in the Gulf of Thailand, but the government and armed forces had not done anything to protect Thai territorial sovereignty.

Officials reject Thai group's claims over French oil deal

CAMBODIAN officials have dismissed Thai protesters' claims that a recent oil exploration agreement between Cambodia and French oil giant Total is a violation of Thai sovereignty, saying Cambodia has the right to award exploration rights inside the Gulf of Thailand's 27,000-square-kilometre overlapping claims area (OCA).

During Prime Minister Hun Sen's visit to France last month, officials announced an agreement offering Total the exploration rights to a 2,430-square-kilometre block - known as Area III - that sits inside the OCA.

Har Kimhong, Cambodia's top border negotiator, said that Cambodia had the right to award exploration rights as it saw fit.

"The Thai authorities have nothing to do with the block we have given to Total," he said. "It is under Cambodian sovereignty."

Edited January 5, 2011 by Buchholz

[mkawish]

An excellent source of info on the squabble between Thai and Camb

regarding where is the agreeable line of territorial and what about the enormous profit potentialities?

Much thx.

The concurrent border dispute over the Gulf of Thailand border, in which huge resources of gas and minerals are at stake.

If the French-drawn maps of maritime borders, which were absurdly drawn to benefit Cambodia, are accepted, there is potential for great loss.

I wasn't aware that the 1904/1907 French maps included a maritime boundary, particularly one favouring Cambodia so much. Did the Thais accept that boundary at the time of the treaty? The Cambodian / Thai maritime claims (indicated in your diagram) are 1972 / 1973 claims.

I can understand the confusion with the land border, with the Preah Vihear temple on the Thai side of the watershed line.

A good recent article on the disputed maritime border can be found here:

http://www.clc-asia....-gas-resources/

[CLCAsia]

An excellent source of info on the squabble between Thai and Cambodia

regarding where is the agreeable line of territorial and what about the enormous profit potentialities?

Much thx.

<<Apologies in advance to the moderators of this site....I noted from google analytics that I was getting hits from Thai Visa and wondered what the fuss was about!>>

Thanks for the compliment on the article - I am the author of that piece.

In terms of agreeable lines, well it is too hard to tell at the moment, most likely there will be no 'agreed' line, and that the two countries at some point will have to sit down and work out simply how to share the resources in the common area - and gloss over the need for a final agreement on the maritime border . One this is certain though, the Cambodia claim actually goes straight through Ko.Chang, which would be totally unacceptable to Thailand in any form.

The problem with any compromise is that geologically, most of the economic resources are likely to be towards the Thai side of the claim, with the cambodian side tricker to exploit. But none of this is certain as there has been little proper exploration in the disputed area, so quantifying in dollar terms what is there is difficult. Different proposals on how this is shared can be found in my article.

Some people had claimed to me that Thailand and Cambodia were actually talking recently and secret regarding the JDA...if was ever happening seriously (which I doubt) events such as this will continually be an irritant in the side of good Thailand and Cambodia relations. Also what will hold things up is that the head of the Thai border commission recently resigned - a man who was known to be fairly impartial - perhaps too impartial for Thai nationalists (on both sides of politics). Building up trust therefore at a working level to get around settling the maritime border at least, will take years.

Oil companies who hire me to find out this stuff get annoyed when I tell them all this, but it is the truth as far as I can discern.

Regards

Chris Larkin

MD - CLC Asia

www.clc-asia.com

Edited January 7, 2011 by CLCAsia