An Open Letter To The Red Shirts

[Buchholz]

I think you will find that the "red" movement is somewhat bigger than Thaksin. Talk to them up here, many are "red" but now feel that Thaksin is more of a hinderance than a help to their objectives.

I have said this before, but for the "reds",PT, to be a viable opposition to the incumbents they badly need a leader that has charisma and appeal and can distance themselves from Thaksin.

As for the use of draconian laws to reach objectives. Laws are laws until they are not.

Reds who truly don't wish to be affiliated with Thaksin, don't need to distance themselves from him - something more drastic is needed - first renounce membership of the movement they are a part, the movement that Thaksin created and that remains set on aiding his return to power, and doing little else. Then, start their own movement, with their own set of ideals and goals. A fresh start. It's what i think anyone who genuinely did oppose Thaksin would have done a long time ago. Why haven't they? Probably because they aren't genuinely opposed to Thaksin, they simply accept that fighting from his corner has become too tough - much like Thaksin's supporters on Thaivisa who have also gradually moved away from defending him to defending the "broad red aims", as they would have us believe them to be. One only has to search posts of the board's current red sympathisers a year or so back to notice the shift in standpoint.

From the thread heralding Thida's arrival as Red President...

Still waiting for movement on all these points, as well as waiting for the Lavender Shirts to form up.

Incidentally, interesting, given the OP, about her acceptance of anti-monarchists within the Red Shirts.

She's distancing herself from Taksin. She's threatening withdrawal of support for the PTP if they don't effectively champion the needs of the red shirt grassroots movement (ie rural poor).

Will the habitual Taksin/red shirt bashers who claim they sympathize with the plight of the rural poor join me in wishing Ms.Thida good luck in furthering their cause?

Or if this stance still fails to meet with their lofty requirements, perhaps they can admit this is at least a step in the right direction for the rural poor and suggest what else should happen before they will give this movement an even break?

She'll get my support with:

A stronger denunciation of Thaksin (btw, it's most often transliterated as Thaksin and not Taksin, which is spelled differently and pronounced differently in Thai, and most often refers to someone else).

A stronger disassociation with the anti-monarchists (she accepts that 3% of Reds are).

Fuller elaboration on their goals and ideals. Remove "to seek the release of jailed red shirts" as one of their goals.

Non-adherence to Communist beliefs and goals.

A stronger statement that they will hold Pheu Thai Party to the same standards as they impose on the Democrat Party.

Complete disassociation and denouncement of Jatuporn, Arisaman, Issan Rambo, Sae Daeng, Kwanchai, and all other violent Red Leaders.

Other than those things, it is a step in the right direction, but the walk is so far, she'd be better to completely sever her relationship with the Reds and begin with something else, the Lavender Shirts, perhaps.

[AZBill]

Uhhh the vast majority don't speak or read English well enough to understand what you are saying and most never look at this site or even have internet access. Who is your audience here?

[cdnvic]

One inflammatory post removed.

[gatorsoft]

The problem is as follows: A large portion of Thai society feels oppressed and disenfranchised. The current regime has no qualms about volating human rights, civil rights and most principles of democracy in order to maintain their grip on power. Since they currently hold the power and control and are not afraid to use it to suppress the opposition, the red shirts (with charismatic Thaksin as poster child) have little choice but to consolidate under whatever leader they can.

Recent history has given the opposition good reason to doubt the electoral process as unbiased and reasonable. Until a government can operate without the need to suppress basic freedom of expression and at least attempt to perform honestly and with transparency, there will be protests and demonstrations that endanger other's personal liberties.

Unfortunately, there is no reason to believe a "red" government would necessarily be significantly different. I wonder if PT dominated in the next general election if Thailand would become another Ivory Coast, or if the colors would simply swap back to yellow and the lawless mob would be the PAD until the courts found an excuse to oust the sitting government.

And as usual, members on both sides of the spectrum continue to express their opinions as verified facts, with a few exceptions (Scooter: your kind of reasonable, well considered discourse clearly has no place here).

[SomTumTiger]

Even the dozen or so Thai families I used to know here in the States always said something along the lines of, "We had no idea what America was like before we got here. We want to go back to Thailand"...although nothing was stopping them from doing so, and they never did. For a long time, Thais I would meet in Thailand, when I would say my mother lived in Florida would say either, "Oh, Disneyworld", or "Oh, space shuttle." I also had different Thai people at different times ask me: "Are the streets in America paved with gold?", "Doesn't everyone in America have AIDs?", and "Don't all people in America own guns?" So I reject your premise that very many Thais are going to debate with you or me the concepts of democracy, representative government, egalitarian societies, the balance between personal liberty and personal responsibility, or even the word sacrosanct. We're more likely to get back the response, "You tink too mutt." I doubt that even 5% of the Thai Red Shirts I watched driving around Bangkok in their caravans in the weeks leading up to May 19 could have discussed any of those topics. Nor could those Red Shirts who committed arson to 31 buildings. About all they could tell me -- and I did talk with a few -- was that their lives were unfair and that they loved Thaksin.

This statement reflects more on than it does on Thais, unfortunately...

[Emptyset]

And as usual, members on both sides of the spectrum continue to express their opinions as verified facts, with a few exceptions (Scooter: your kind of reasonable, well considered discourse clearly has no place here).

Wasn't Scooter the guy that accused Pravit of being a dimwitted lackey of Thaksin? He also uses a difference font. Highly suspicious. Obviously thinks he makes the rules about what fonts are appropriate or not. He also beats you out of the argument by sheer volume of words. I don't consider that reasonable. Haha, just joking. I actually don't mind the verbosity and the font use but he is completely wrong about Pravit. I haven't seen many here express pro-red views at all, and most people that do express them apologetically. I'm one of the few to defend them here and I don't consider myself particularly pro-red at all. I've got more reservations than certainly.

Other than that, I think you were broadly right in your assessment.

[rixalex]

The problem is as follows: A large portion of Thai society feels oppressed and disenfranchised.The current regime has no qualms about volating human rights, civil rights and most principles of democracy in order to maintain their grip on power.

The current regime? What about the regimes that came before it. If this is all about violated human rights, civil rights and principles of democracy, why are these people only now standing up against it, and why did so many of them happily vote in favour of it in 2005? Why? Perhaps because when your "side" is in power, suddenly these issues become of little importance.

[gatorsoft]

The problem is as follows: A large portion of Thai society feels oppressed and disenfranchised.The current regime has no qualms about volating human rights, civil rights and most principles of democracy in order to maintain their grip on power.

The current regime? What about the regimes that came before it. If this is all about violated human rights, civil rights and principles of democracy, why are these people only now standing up against it, and why did so many of them happily vote in favour of it in 2005? Why? Perhaps because when your "side" is in power, suddenly these issues become of little importance.

The fact remains that the current regime is totalitarian and draconian. Until this is decreased by whatever regime is in power, there will be endless strife. The "he did it first" argument doesn't serve to solve anything. Whether it is Thaksin or Abhisit or the hidden power brokers that do it, it is contrary to any move to "democracy" and will continue to create problems. I didn't see Samak or Somchai shutting down radio or TV broadcasts and blocking an extraordinary amount of websites. Whether they chose to arrest, detain and toture their opponents we will probably never know for sure.

[rixalex]

The fact remains that the current regime is totalitarian and draconian.

That's not a fact, that is your opinion.

Until this is decreased by whatever regime is in power, there will be endless strife.

The endless strife continues all the while those who are bankrolling continue to do so. Naive to think otherwise.

The "he did it first" argument doesn't serve to solve anything.

No it doesn't, but it does put perspective on where protesters' real grievances lie, when they accept abuses in one regime but not in another.

I didn't see Samak or Somchai shutting down radio or TV broadcasts and blocking an extraordinary amount of websites.

If true, perhaps that's because they had their hands full, working round the clock, trying to bring their master back.

[Buchholz]

I didn't see Samak or Somchai shutting down radio or TV broadcasts and blocking an extraordinary amount of websites.

If true, perhaps that's because they had their hands full, working round the clock, trying to bring their master back.

He wasn't looking very much apparently. Their constant battles with ASTV as well as website blocking are easy to find. Samak, in particular, was busy manipulating radio and television shows. His intimidating and threatening manner extended even to international media with his infamous Al-Jazeera interview a classic.

Summarized well on September 15, 2008 by The Nation -

These were but a few typical exchanges out of hundreds since February that have shown the scope of Samak's ability to meddle with and spin the media. No other leader in Thai political history has engaged and divided the media in such a manic way as Samak has done, not even Thaksin Shinawatra, who was considered the country's foremost spin-doctor.

.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Buchholz

[rubl]

The fact remains that the current regime is totalitarian and draconian. Until this is decreased by whatever regime is in power, there will be endless strife. The "he did it first" argument doesn't serve to solve anything. Whether it is Thaksin or Abhisit or the hidden power brokers that do it, it is contrary to any move to "democracy" and will continue to create problems. I didn't see Samak or Somchai shutting down radio or TV broadcasts and blocking an extraordinary amount of websites. Whether they chose to arrest, detain and toture their opponents we will probably never know for sure.

The fact remains that this government is so totalitarian and draconian, that even the Ratchaprasong business people complain about the anti-government red-shirt protests which the government in it's authoritarian attitude allows to proceed.

'arrest, detain, torture' whichever side it refers to is an insinuation without grounds. Rumour spreading, or hate-mongering is against forum rules methinks ?

[gatorsoft]

I didn't see Samak or Somchai shutting down radio or TV broadcasts and blocking an extraordinary amount of websites.

If true, perhaps that's because they had their hands full, working round the clock, trying to bring their master back.

He wasn't looking very much apparently. Their constant battles with ASTV as well as website blocking are easy to find. Samak, in particular, was busy manipulating radio and television shows. His intimidating and threatening manner extended even to international media with his infamous Al-Jazeera interview a classic.

Summarized well on September 15, 2008 by The Nation -

These were but a few typical exchanges out of hundreds since February that have shown the scope of Samak's ability to meddle with and spin the media. No other leader in Thai political history has engaged and divided the media in such a manic way as Samak has done, not even Thaksin Shinawatra, who was considered the country's foremost spin-doctor.

.

Spinning the media and giving questionable information in interviews is hardly equivalent to shutting down broadcasts and blocking websites.

[gatorsoft]

The fact remains that the current regime is totalitarian and draconian. Until this is decreased by whatever regime is in power, there will be endless strife. The "he did it first" argument doesn't serve to solve anything. Whether it is Thaksin or Abhisit or the hidden power brokers that do it, it is contrary to any move to "democracy" and will continue to create problems. I didn't see Samak or Somchai shutting down radio or TV broadcasts and blocking an extraordinary amount of websites. Whether they chose to arrest, detain and toture their opponents we will probably never know for sure.

The fact remains that this government is so totalitarian and draconian, that even the Ratchaprasong business people complain about the anti-government red-shirt protests which the government in it's authoritarian attitude allows to proceed.

'arrest, detain, torture' whichever side it refers to is an insinuation without grounds. Rumour spreading, or hate-mongering is against forum rules methinks ?

The National Human Rights Commission subcommittee on civil and political rights apparently is guilty of rumour spreading and hate-mongering. I'm sure you would like any criticism of the current government to be against forum rules. I'm sure that the subcommittee was paid off by Thaksin to make such a damning report. And the story was very well publicized, wasn't it. It will probably be removed from the BP site soon.

Edited January 14, 2011 by cdnvic
Removed Bangkok Post link as requested by the Bangkok Post

[rubl]

The truth may hurt, but sets you free.

Following some link on this controversial issue:

http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/nhrc-partisan-or-hopeless/

http://nhrcthai.wordpress.com/

Nothing to be found on http://www.nhrc.or.th/index.php?lang=EN

(edit: add: instead of 'if' we're now on 'what and how much' regarding 'arrest, detain, torture')

Edited January 14, 2011 by rubl

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I have to disagree with you on several counts, although you are correct that our democracies are not picturesque example of representative, egalitarian societies where personal liberty is held sacrosanct. Where I begin to disagree, however, is that it's a "ludicrous lie". I'd say it's an unfulfilled promise that is long overdue. I'd say are western democracies are highly imperfect, but I don't see a governmental alternative out there that is better.

Now, as far as "trying to sell that nonsense to Thais", a couple of points. First, before we could try to sell those concepts to Thais, they'd have to able to grasp the concepts.

Oh I completely agree with you on your last point, but I actually had an entire different group of people in mind.

The group I had in mind are definitely bright enough to grasp the concepts. Coincidentally, they are the group who should be educating the group you had in mind.

But of course, they're not. And during my hiatus, I have decided that Thailand's biggest problems are not Thaksin-related. The problems in Thailand are basically all the fault of the media (in my opinion). I used to believe they were merely caught between a Rock and a Hard Place, and deserved a great deal of slack. I now believe I was wrong.

The Thai media is the rock. And the Hard Place as well.

I was referring to the Thai media above (specifically, Thailand's ubiquitous opinionated columnists - including Pravit, of course). And I actually had one, specific OpEd writer in mind; Voranai Vanijaka, who I thought did actually get it for half of last year. But then one day the devastating blow hit. He didn't get it. Nup, the bravest and brightest journalist in Thailand was as clueless as the rest about the nature of democratic ideals. That was a sad day. Reading his column "What Makes The World Go Round" is fascinating stuff in my opinion, and I think it's almost eerily representative of Thailand's ongoing cultural handicap which will ensure they languish far longer than is acceptable in the darkness. Self-criticism in Thailand is as rare as a post of mine < 500 words.

Voranai nails (quite correctly) the Western hypocrisies with 'democracy' - he's 100% right, of course. I won't get into why your "unfulfilled promise" won't ever be fulfilled (unfortunately) - but you only need to look around and you'd realise democracy is failing all over the globe. It failed Argentina. Is failing the US. Is failing Europe. Has probably already ensured Israel's Knesset is doomed as a result of changing demographics (of a hilarious, state-killing, cancerous kind). The UK is probably one of the most corrupt nations on the planet. And so on...

Do I have a solution? No. Do I care? Nah. But that's an essay for another day. Back to Voranai ripping apart Western hypocrisies...

And this is why we need to ''fool the West'' - it's because we want to be a part of the global community, which of course is dominated by Western power and money. To have allies. To trade. To do business. It's what makes the world go round. And they love that word ''democracy'' over there.

But then again, on the flip side, if the Western world is truly sincere about democracy, then no one from the West would be trading with or investing in China.

Really, Thailand is no more hypocritical than anyone else, are we? In truth, we aren't fooling them, nor are they fooling us.

So let's all pretend. To masquerade as a democracy is easy. All we need to have are elections. So just have them. Lots of countries do.

Money doesn't need democracy. Money needs stability.

All that said, my cup is always half full. After all, such is the nature of the idealistic fool. Others may shed tears over the more than 100,000 websites blocked in Thailand. And perhaps many do deserve to be blocked for abusing freedoms rather than exercising them.

But in my half-full cup, I see more than 100,000 websites, even if I strongly disagree with their content, standing up for freedom. And that's more than ever before, isn't it? That is progress. The bans are simply the obstacles. Obstacles to progress are simply the natural order of things. Freedoms aren't served up on a silver platter.

Some may say, ''Voranai, you traitor, you! How can you write so badly about Thailand, saying we are only pretending and masquerading!'' To which I reply: You are very welcome to prove me wrong by putting a stop to the suppression of freedoms.

He nails the Western hypocrisy angle. The Western world is almost nauseous with their rhetoric about democracy and sanctions for various undemocratic states, yet China is our biggest trading partner and we invade sovereign nations on fabricated INTEL purely for their oil; whilst talking about Freedom™ whilst we ignore millions being slaughtered in genocides (sans oil so who cares).

If you tried to sell people like Voranai on the idea that our democracies are shining examples of freedom, they'd (quite rightfully, in my opinion) consider anyone who did so a right twit. But Voranai and Pravit and anyone who might actually want a positive future for Thailand needs to understand that whilst the West's hypocrisies are outrageous, we still do some democratic ideals incredibly well. One of these is found in the fact that whilst we are hypocritical, we are not in denial about it.

And nowhere is that more evident than in the Western press, who have far less freedoms than the Thai media (which is only restricted from fully dissecting one issue; although Pravit has fooled me a few times).

In Voranai's butchered conclusion, after asserting Thailand's hypocrisy was ~= to Western hypocrisy, Voranai immediately sets about disproving his own claim. Thailand's media yells, sulks, spits the dummy and cries for more freedoms endlessly. Never once, have I seen a Thai journalist point out the fact that they simply do not deserve the freedoms they're already enjoying. I have never once seen a single example of the Thai English-language print media self-regulating their industry. I don't think I've ever once seen an example of (much-needed) peer-criticism. Keeping a check and balance on themselves is required to ensure (at least a level of) accountability. The government cannot do it for them - everyone knows how that's gonna play out.

But on the flipside, I have never seen a nation's media so desperately in need of regulation.

I understand that there was a time when Prachatai was world-class, and a genuine alternative media portal. I can only go off what they are now, and what they are now is a ludicrous parody which makes British tabloids seem like Anderson Cooper. It's ridiculous that the entire mainstream press in Thailand is supporting a vendetta-pursuing propaganda tabloid like Prachatai in a rally cry for the right to abuse even more freedoms even more unacceptably. What Prachatai gets away with is outrageous and has nothing to do with the democratic tenet of a free press. Sure, in our democracies there are slants and editorial leanings (some more horizontal than others, FOX News ahem)...but there are always a healthy number of colleagues in the media more than willing to disembowel any which get way out of line.

I don't think I have ever seen a Thai media article criticising another Thai media article. Or a Thai journalist criticising anything about his or her own industry.

To Voranai, I'd say (in far more succinct manner if I was actually hoping he'd read it):

-------------------------------------------

Voranai, you've missed the point. Of course the entire world is pretending and masquerading, to varying degrees. Why would anyone expect anything else? But no one does hypocrisy quite like Thailand.

In delightful, pure, pleasant and polite Thailand...where almost everyone is living in delusion or denial, happily grasping onto a culture that restricts or even precludes introspection...it's all but impossible to find an objectively honest soul who is capable of accurately assessing their own behaviour, performance, competence levels and/or whether they lived up to their personal responsibilities in any given situation.

You're brave Voranai - braver than I will ever be, and yet...you cannot hope to achieve anything with your bravery until you are brave enough to criticise yourself, and your out-of-control colleagues in your out-of-control industry. You cannot have unbridled freedoms without sanctions, or they will simply be abused. To wit.

Freedom of the press isn't the right to post sheer propaganda with violent undertones. Freedom of the press isn't the right to post ludicrous OpEds like Avudh's in The Nation earlier this month (probably the worst I've yet seen, as far as irresponsible 'point-scoring' goes). Freedom of the press isn't the right to launch stunningly irresponsible attacks with insane ultimatums bordering on outright threats to the high court in a clear attempts to prejudice an imminent verdict (Avudh again, but in truth, the vast majority of the OpEd writers in the Thai media were clearly guilty of contempt of court around that time). Freedom of the press isn't the right of (the hopefully 180 degree'd) Pravit to publish idiotic propaganda copy, breaking almost every ethical journalism tenet in the process.

Voranai, how can you write so truthfully about Thailand, saying the nation is pretending and masquerading, whilst you simultaneously pretend and masquerade along? Pretending that your industry isn't the joke you surely know it is, pretending that Prachatai's content is acceptable, pretending that the Thai media needs more freedoms when they irresponsibly abuse the many they already have.

You see, Voranai, democracy is ludicrously flawed. We both know that. But what you failed to realise is that everyone gets out of line. Corrupt politicians, dirty cops, Joe Citizen cutting corners, spoiled rich kids believing they're above the law, wealthy tycoon bribing his way out of trouble or even a PM with a reputation for probity seemingly willing to rationalise away a great deal of evil in the pursuit of a greater good. Heck, even champions of idealism and ethics like you and I are liable to wander away from the path of righteousness on occasion. We're humans. It's in our nature to push the boundaries of acceptability on occasion.

But where our Western democracies excel; and where Thailand's democracy is shattered; is the reaction when someone gets way out of line. There is almost always a host of their peers who will immediately shower them with righteous, indignant (and very healthy) criticism. There is no industry in our democracies where this is more evident than in the print media.

The difference between a functional democracy and a dysfunctional masquerade is that, whilst both are going to be endlessly flawed and hypocritical, a functional democracy has those who are willing to endlessly police those who breach the boundaries of acceptability. And this is how the boundaries are protected from mass breaching.

Those boundaries in Thailand have never been patrolled. And the result is people like Thaksin, who was so corrupt it's almost farcical...being considered by the majority of Thailand to merely be a victim of his own excellence...at corruption! It's madness. The result is journalists like Pravit writing ludicrous propaganda copy. I do not doubt for one second that Pravit truly and fervently believes in the overall nobility of his agenda. He just forgot that you cannot commit unlimited wrongs in order to correct one. It's madness. The result is a mob of Red Shirts willing to die over legitimate concerns involving the judiciary and double standards....in an illegitimate manner, for a man who represents literally every double standard they ostensibly are furious about. It's madness.

These contradictions are everywhere in Thailand. Girls who will scream at you when they mistake you for another person, who was kissing another girl in front of them....and only weeks later, sincerely inform you that your raised voice is an over-reaction (after having discovered dozens of far worse indiscretions than kissing... indiscretions of theirs conducted over a long period of time).

This is Thailand. The real Thailand. Almost no one takes responsibility for their actions, because no one believes they have any. Responsibility, ethics, fidelity, honesty, probity, sincerity, dignity – these are traits others should have, when they interact with you.

Thailand's OpEd writers love criticising politicians and telling them how to do their jobs. All the while oblivious to the fact that you've been promoting (via facilitation if not direct enabling) the very outrages which you all then wax lyrical against. Why are Thailand's mainstream dailies allowing their papers to be used to broadcast calls for the slaughtering of innocents by criminal terrorists, or used to publish death threats against Electoral Commission members and their families, or used to publish threats of suicide bombings and terror, or used to broadcast endless pathetically-veiled 'warnings' of deaths should X or Y party not lean in Sae Daeng's (or some other terror-employing, violent identity's) favour?

Why Voranai, do you stay silent? There are very few - if any - journalists in Thailand with your courage and your intelligence. We have read your columns criticising violent Army generals, corrupt Army generals, powerful and dangerous politicians, and much more of course. And you usually manage to do it all with that enviable finesse and wit. And yet...all your efforts are largely meaningless because you cannot clean up Thailand's politics and educate the tens of millions of compulsory voters all by yourself. And not only are you not doing that, you're actually making things worse; when you hand endless free passes to those who are supposed to be helping you.

The true test of courage is not measured by one's willingness to criticise their enemies. It's measured by one's willingness to criticise their friends. Thailand needs you (and every copy writer, journalist, sub-editor and editor) to stand up and show some genuine courage.

--------------------------

Sorry Voranai, but no one does hypocrisy quite like Thailand. Failing to clean your own house is the definition of hypocrisy. You cannot wax lyrical about idealistic sentiments, whilst simultaneously tolerating (or even sanctioning!) breaches of those sentiments if or when the breaches are awkwardly committed by your colleagues. In your industry. By your friends?

You are very welcome to prove me wrong by ignoring the trivial goings-on around you for a spell, and cleaning up your own house first. Call your colleagues to the higher standard you all demand of the public servants you all criticise. Demand those who have sacrificed ethics in the pursuit of various agendas to re-establish their moral legitimacy. Stop ignoring the ethical breaches of those who invent sources, knowingly misrepresent facts and ignore inconvenient truths in order to exploit situations for the perceived benefit of their various agendas. Those who refuse, whether shameless, ignorant or corrupted, must be muzzled by editors who must be criticised if they fail to do so.

There are double standards littered all throughout Thai society and culture; and the outrage at those found in the judicial process, whilst valid, is almost shockingly misappropriated. The double standard you, then your industry, then the nation should be addressing first...is the disparity between the standards of conduct one demands from others....and the absence of any imposed upon oneself. .

----------------

The Thai media must clean house first.

Then it must present a united front against violence as a means to an end. It must set standards for what is acceptable and what is not. It must regulate itself and prove itself worthy of the freedoms it so petulantly demands.

Then it must commence it's responsibilities as a Free Press; and this means educating readers about democracy. About corruption. About rule of law. About ethical standards of behaviour. About due process. Respect for judicial verdicts even when one disagrees with the decision, especially when one disagrees with the decision. Teach them about probity, integrity and personal responsibility. Teach them about the importance of their vote and why selling it for trinkets sacrifices their children's future. Teach them about their responsibilities in a democracy, in a marriage, in a society and in life. Teach them why an addiction to 'gifts' instead of long-term welfare projects is selling their children's future down the river. Teach them about the shame of their perpetuating the cycle.

--------

The difference between Western democracies and fledging democracies like Thailand's is not evident in our respective criticisms of others. Everyone loves to tell other people what they should do, including me. The reason Western democracies are more or less 'stable' (for now), whilst Thailand's will surely never be....is really a function of the Western media mostly not demanding from other others standards of behaviour which they aren't willing to abide by themselves.

Thailand must - as a nation - look inwards, individually and collectively, and take one long hard look at themselves. They must assess their cultural hangups. They must address the horrific issues being swept under the rug of denial. Thai society's addiction to double standards must end.

And perhaps one day, when the nation has taken an entire cultural step away from the childish and prattish immaturity and failure to empathise and inability to see the world from the position of one's opponent....then - and only then - would there be any point lecturing Prime Ministers and public servants and judges and the masses, on what your esteemed industry believes they should do. Because until you establish a position of legitimacy, no one will listen. And why should they?

But...If the Thai media continues to deny the reality (that they are not worthy of the freedoms they're currently abusing), then the most immature society in the world will continue on in suffering, frustration and pain. Stunned that there would be double standards in justice, when they themselves are prepared to overlook Thaksin's corruption, whilst they scream for the blood of a 16 year old child who made a driving mistake. Stunned that there would be double standards in morality, when they themselves are prepared to send their daughters into the sex industry, whilst screaming for public servants to act with probity. Stunned that they risk becoming the laughingstock of the globe, when violent protesters with children in tow, hijack the property of private citizens, and proceed to wage bloody war in the middle of the capital against their brothers and fellow man; demanding a democratic government surrender it's legitimacy to violent hijackers screaming and waving banners of freedom and democracy.

It's time to grow up Thailand. Children are only precocious for a short period of time. Then they get annoying. Then they get exploited.

Oh I can quite easily foresee the foreign exploitation being conducted under the flags of freedom / democracy (pure cover for the looting and pilfering of this almost-great nation).

And then you can whine all over again about Western hypocrisies. And question all over again whether or not you're really more hypocritical than the West, conveniently deciding that you're not then immediately proving that you are.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

And as usual, members on both sides of the spectrum continue to express their opinions as verified facts, with a few exceptions (Scooter: your kind of reasonable, well considered discourse clearly has no place here).

I thank you Sir, but I assure you the mods will confirm I am not fibbing when I say that I do not always - strictly - wear that particular brand of rhetoric. It's just so much more fun to indulge in hyperbole though....sigh.

Wasn't Scooter the guy that accused Pravit of being a dimwitted lackey of Thaksin? He also uses a difference font. Highly suspicious. Obviously thinks he makes the rules about what fonts are appropriate or not. He also beats you out of the argument by sheer volume of words. I don't consider that reasonable. Haha, just joking. I actually don't mind the verbosity and the font use but he is completely wrong about Pravit.

I don't think I called Pravit that. I admit I have thought along those lines, at times, but I'm gonna plead Not Guilty until some evidence is presented. Burden of proof and all that...

But no, my biggest problem with Pravit (and everyone who believes they are fighting for an ideal) is their apparent willingness to sacrifice idealism at some point (usually early) along the way.

The font thing was merely some dandy nonsense. I have been ordered back into uniformity.

You're right about my verbosity being terrible writing. I only hope you're equally as right about Pravit. We shall see, I guess....

[Siripon]

Apart from the desire to cause as much disruption as possible,and hence remain in the news, there's another reason the red shirts always go back to Rachaprasong, and that's the royal names of the streets.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Apart from the desire to cause as much disruption as possible,and hence remain in the news, there's another reason the red shirts always go back to Rachaprasong, and that's the royal names of the streets.

The anti-monarchists are merely hijacking / piggy-backing onto the back of the Thaksin Movement.

You can believe there is more than a negligible amount of republicans in the Thaksin Movement rank and file when they actually peacefully protest at the palace.

Do they think they'll get mowed down? lol, they just know that 90% of their supporters still respect / have pride in their King.