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[kaosoi]

Hello,

Wondering if any of you have been able to use the Labour Court i spite of not having a WP or contract?

Thanks.

[Mario2008]

Best place to start is the labour office, they can take things to court on your behalf.

It is not smart to work without a work permit but the labour office seem not to make a big issue out of it in case of conflicts with an employer.

[kaosoi]

Best place to start is the labour office, they can take things to court on your behalf.

It is not smart to work without a work permit but the labour office seem not to make a big issue out of it in case of conflicts with an employer.

May I ask - do you know this form experience or is it something you have read?

I have spoken to some lawyers (who are too expensive to use) and there seem to be lots of grey areas...some say they could report me to the M of Labour, some say I cannot use them as I had no contract and would not be considered an employee , some say I can.

Thanks.

PS, just sent you a PM

Edited January 12, 2011 by kaosoi

[Soutpeel]

Best place to start is the labour office, they can take things to court on your behalf.

It is not smart to work without a work permit but the labour office seem not to make a big issue out of it in case of conflicts with an employer.

May I ask - do you know this form experience or is it something you have read?

I have spoken to some lawyers (who are too expensive to use) and there seem to be lots of grey areas...some say they could report me to the M of Labour, some say I cannot use them as I had no contract and would not be considered an employee , some say I can.

Thanks.

PS, just sent you a PM

Whether you have a contract or not is somewhat irrelevant, as if there is no written contract in place, the standard conditions of employment apply per Thai labour law anyway

As regards a WP, there have been cases, one of which is detailed on TV, where the individual concerned took the company to the labour dept/court and won the case even though they had no work permit.

Generally lawyers are not much good in Thailand when it comes to labour disputes, you are better going directly to the department of labour closest to you and lodge the compliant via them, if the case is viable they will investigate and persue the case....costs you nothing...actually a pretty good set up in Thailand

[kaosoi]

Best place to start is the labour office, they can take things to court on your behalf.

It is not smart to work without a work permit but the labour office seem not to make a big issue out of it in case of conflicts with an employer.

May I ask - do you know this form experience or is it something you have read?

I have spoken to some lawyers (who are too expensive to use) and there seem to be lots of grey areas...some say they could report me to the M of Labour, some say I cannot use them as I had no contract and would not be considered an employee , some say I can.

Thanks.

PS, just sent you a PM

Whether you have a contract or not is somewhat irrelevant, as if there is no written contract in place, the standard conditions of employment apply per Thai labour law anyway

As regards a WP, there have been cases, one of which is detailed on TV, where the individual concerned took the company to the labour dept/court and won the case even though they had no work permit.

Generally lawyers are not much good in Thailand when it comes to labour disputes, you are better going directly to the department of labour closest to you and lodge the compliant via them, if the case is viable they will investigate and persue the case....costs you nothing...actually a pretty good set up in Thailand

Thanks..that sounds promising as the lawyer i am using I do not trust much (weak, fuzzy).

As for the thread about a similar case all i can find is the following but it has no conclusion - ttp://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/322885-employed-55mo-no-salary-work-permit-contract/page__p__3212250__hl__labor+court__fromsearch__1#entry3212250

Was this the one?

[Soutpeel]

Best place to start is the labour office, they can take things to court on your behalf.

It is not smart to work without a work permit but the labour office seem not to make a big issue out of it in case of conflicts with an employer.

May I ask - do you know this form experience or is it something you have read?

I have spoken to some lawyers (who are too expensive to use) and there seem to be lots of grey areas...some say they could report me to the M of Labour, some say I cannot use them as I had no contract and would not be considered an employee , some say I can.

Thanks.

PS, just sent you a PM

Whether you have a contract or not is somewhat irrelevant, as if there is no written contract in place, the standard conditions of employment apply per Thai labour law anyway

As regards a WP, there have been cases, one of which is detailed on TV, where the individual concerned took the company to the labour dept/court and won the case even though they had no work permit.

Generally lawyers are not much good in Thailand when it comes to labour disputes, you are better going directly to the department of labour closest to you and lodge the compliant via them, if the case is viable they will investigate and persue the case....costs you nothing...actually a pretty good set up in Thailand

Thanks..that sounds promising as the lawyer i am using I do not trust much (weak, fuzzy).

As for the thread about a similar case all i can find is the following but it has no conclusion - ttp://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/322885-employed-55mo-no-salary-work-permit-contract/page__p__3212250__hl__labor+court__fromsearch__1#entry3212250

Was this the one?

The case related to someone working for a hotel/resort with no WP or contract and they were let go, the person concerned took them to the labour court and won the case, it was brought to conclusion

Edited January 12, 2011 by Soutpeel

[jdinasia]

It was Donna

[kaosoi]

It was Donna

http://www.thaivisa...._1#entry1719560

Thanks...though reading through she appears to at least have had a contract.

Edited January 12, 2011 by kaosoi

[jdinasia]

It was Donna

http://www.thaivisa...._1#entry1719560

Thanks...though reading through she appears to at least have had a contract.

It shouldn't much matter. The MoL is decidedly pro-labor. No contract means very little to them. The issue will be do you have a right to compensation under Thai labor law or not? If you were fired for cause, or the expected length of employment was over etc etc will be the points they look at.

[Soutpeel]

It was Donna

http://www.thaivisa...._1#entry1719560

Thanks...though reading through she appears to at least have had a contract.

Contract or not....your standard terms and conditions during employment are governed by Thai labour regulations, so you are covered by them, generally employment contracts are not worth the paper they are written on

Maybe if you give an overview of your situation you may be some better advice...if its to do with serverance pay...yes you are entitled to it under certain conditions same as a Thai national

Edited January 12, 2011 by Soutpeel

[kaosoi]

It was Donna

http://www.thaivisa...._1#entry1719560

Thanks...though reading through she appears to at least have had a contract.

Contract or not....your standard terms and conditions during employment are governed by Thai labour regulations, so you are covered by them, generally employment contracts are not worth the paper they are written on

Maybe if you give an overview of your situation you may be some better advice...if its to do with serverance pay...yes you are entitled to it under certain conditions same as a Thai national

Thanks - it is to do with unpaid salary (715k) and I worked almost a year. However the work was a kind of consulting work and commission based so it may count as "project work" which was a key part of Donna's story.

After joining the firm I found the guy (an Englishman) had done this to farangs in the past, was sued in 2009 by one, the turnover was vast, I have an email where he set out T&C with the indication that a WP would come soon, he has avoided paying tax, lied to clients (in serious ways), bullied Thai staff mercilessly et al. Even as i was leaving the office he tried to hire another farang and spin her the "WP soon" bull

I told him I was quitting months ago but had to wait for my payment/commission to be paid by clients. One sad thing is that clients do not see what a scheister he is (one lawyer said he set me up) and he is a member of all the chambers and presents himself as a professional guy - he is not.

One example is a major firm wanted to use the companies services and to use one consultant in particular to do the job. The owner pretended that that consultant was still working for the company and was doing the work for them when in fact he had quit and had started a new job already.

Key Labour Court point that comes up seems to be "Hire for Work" versus "Hire for Service" - that LC is only for Hire for Service and you need a contract for that to be legally considered an employee and protected by Thai law- so said some lawyers I had a consultation with...but others have disagreed..hence I have been looking for concrete examples here.

Edited January 12, 2011 by kaosoi

[kaosoi]

It was Donna

http://www.thaivisa...._1#entry1719560

Thanks...though reading through she appears to at least have had a contract.

Contract or not....your standard terms and conditions during employment are governed by Thai labour regulations, so you are covered by them, generally employment contracts are not worth the paper they are written on

Maybe if you give an overview of your situation you may be some better advice...if its to do with serverance pay...yes you are entitled to it under certain conditions same as a Thai national

Thanks - it is to do with unpaid salary (715k) and I worked almost a year. However the work was a kind of consulting work and commission based so it may count as "project work" which was a key part of Donna's story.

After joining the firm I found the guy (an Englishman) had done this to farangs in the past, was sued in 2009 by one, the turnover was vast, I have an email where he set out T&C with the indication that a WP would come soon, he has avoided paying tax, lied to clients (in serious ways), bullied Thai staff mercilessly et al. Even as i was leaving the office he tried to hire another farang and spin her the "WP soon" bull

I told him I was quitting months ago but had to wait for my payment/commission to be paid by clients. One sad thing is that clients do not see what a scheister he is (one lawyer said he set me up) and he is a member of all the chambers and presents himself as a professional guy - he is not.

One example is a major firm wanted to use the companies services and to use one consultant in particular to do the job. The owner pretended that that consultant was still working for the company and was doing the work for them when in fact he had quit and had started a new job already.

Key Labour Court point that comes up seems to be "Hire for Work" versus "Hire for Service" - that LC is only for Hire for Service and you need a contract for that to be legally considered an employee and protected by Thai law- so said some lawyers I had a consultation with...but others have disagreed..hence I have been looking for concrete examples here.

will add..

It came to a head when he found a couple of email exchanges in the computer of someone who had just quit where we both questioned his business ethics....he spat the dummy...but he had also told the office manager the week before to hide a payment that had been made from me and also asked the only other worker left in the office to lie and say she had done work I had in fact done...she called me to tell me that.

[Soutpeel]

Thanks - it is to do with unpaid salary (715k) and I worked almost a year. However the work was a kind of consulting work and commission based so it may count as "project work" which was a key part of Donna's story.

After joining the firm I found the guy (an Englishman) had done this to farangs in the past, was sued in 2009 by one, the turnover was vast, I have an email where he set out T&C with the indication that a WP would come soon, he has avoided paying tax, lied to clients (in serious ways), bullied Thai staff mercilessly et al. Even as i was leaving the office he tried to hire another farang and spin her the "WP soon" bull

I told him I was quitting months ago but had to wait for my payment/commission to be paid by clients. One sad thing is that clients do not see what a scheister he is (one lawyer said he set me up) and he is a member of all the chambers and presents himself as a professional guy - he is not.

One example is a major firm wanted to use the companies services and to use one consultant in particular to do the job. The owner pretended that that consultant was still working for the company and was doing the work for them when in fact he had quit and had started a new job already.

Key Labour Court point that comes up seems to be "Hire for Work" versus "Hire for Service" - that LC is only for Hire for Service and you need a contract for that to be legally considered an employee and protected by Thai law- so said some lawyers I had a consultation with...but others have disagreed..hence I have been looking for concrete examples here.

I think you are getting too deep into the "legal definitions" of hire for work vs Hire for service, you have provided time to the company as an indivdual, and you have not been paid, you have emails proving the companies intention of providing a WP and T&C's, which by this alone would imply "hire for work" as if "hire for service" the WP would sit with the company providing the service.

The thing that may go against you is the fact you have waited months to follow up on this, but on face value personally think you may get somewhere with the labour dept, its worth a shot as it costs you nothing, if you do go, be sure to take someone who speaks Thai and understands exactly what has gone on, if you could find other indivuals he has done this to, even better, lay multiple complaints, if you could get details of the previous case as well, would certainly strengthen your case

If "Project based" you most likely not going to get serverance, but you are certainly entitled to un paid salary.

You have nothing to loose by talking to the Labour dept other than a few hours

[kaosoi]

Thanks - it is to do with unpaid salary (715k) and I worked almost a year. However the work was a kind of consulting work and commission based so it may count as "project work" which was a key part of Donna's story.

After joining the firm I found the guy (an Englishman) had done this to farangs in the past, was sued in 2009 by one, the turnover was vast, I have an email where he set out T&C with the indication that a WP would come soon, he has avoided paying tax, lied to clients (in serious ways), bullied Thai staff mercilessly et al. Even as i was leaving the office he tried to hire another farang and spin her the "WP soon" bull

I told him I was quitting months ago but had to wait for my payment/commission to be paid by clients. One sad thing is that clients do not see what a scheister he is (one lawyer said he set me up) and he is a member of all the chambers and presents himself as a professional guy - he is not.

One example is a major firm wanted to use the companies services and to use one consultant in particular to do the job. The owner pretended that that consultant was still working for the company and was doing the work for them when in fact he had quit and had started a new job already.

Key Labour Court point that comes up seems to be "Hire for Work" versus "Hire for Service" - that LC is only for Hire for Service and you need a contract for that to be legally considered an employee and protected by Thai law- so said some lawyers I had a consultation with...but others have disagreed..hence I have been looking for concrete examples here.

I think you are getting too deep into the "legal definitions" of hire for work vs Hire for service, you have provided time to the company as an indivdual, and you have not been paid, you have emails proving the companies intention of providing a WP and T&C's, which by this alone would imply "hire for work" as if "hire for service" the WP would sit with the company providing the service.

The thing that may go against you is the fact you have waited months to follow up on this, but on face value personally think you may get somewhere with the labour dept, its worth a shot as it costs you nothing, if you do go, be sure to take someone who speaks Thai and understands exactly what has gone on, if you could find other indivuals he has done this to, even better, lay multiple complaints, if you could get details of the previous case as well, would certainly strengthen your case

If "Project based" you most likely not going to get serverance, but you are certainly entitled to un paid salary.

You have nothing to loose by talking to the Labour dept other than a few hours

Thanks..hope so. It was the lawyer I am using who told me the Hire for work bit and so said I cannot use the LC...but as long as they are not going to lock me up for not having a WP I may as well use them....

[Soutpeel]

Thanks - it is to do with unpaid salary (715k) and I worked almost a year. However the work was a kind of consulting work and commission based so it may count as "project work" which was a key part of Donna's story.

After joining the firm I found the guy (an Englishman) had done this to farangs in the past, was sued in 2009 by one, the turnover was vast, I have an email where he set out T&C with the indication that a WP would come soon, he has avoided paying tax, lied to clients (in serious ways), bullied Thai staff mercilessly et al. Even as i was leaving the office he tried to hire another farang and spin her the "WP soon" bull

I told him I was quitting months ago but had to wait for my payment/commission to be paid by clients. One sad thing is that clients do not see what a scheister he is (one lawyer said he set me up) and he is a member of all the chambers and presents himself as a professional guy - he is not.

One example is a major firm wanted to use the companies services and to use one consultant in particular to do the job. The owner pretended that that consultant was still working for the company and was doing the work for them when in fact he had quit and had started a new job already.

Key Labour Court point that comes up seems to be "Hire for Work" versus "Hire for Service" - that LC is only for Hire for Service and you need a contract for that to be legally considered an employee and protected by Thai law- so said some lawyers I had a consultation with...but others have disagreed..hence I have been looking for concrete examples here.

I think you are getting too deep into the "legal definitions" of hire for work vs Hire for service, you have provided time to the company as an indivdual, and you have not been paid, you have emails proving the companies intention of providing a WP and T&C's, which by this alone would imply "hire for work" as if "hire for service" the WP would sit with the company providing the service.

The thing that may go against you is the fact you have waited months to follow up on this, but on face value personally think you may get somewhere with the labour dept, its worth a shot as it costs you nothing, if you do go, be sure to take someone who speaks Thai and understands exactly what has gone on, if you could find other indivuals he has done this to, even better, lay multiple complaints, if you could get details of the previous case as well, would certainly strengthen your case

If "Project based" you most likely not going to get serverance, but you are certainly entitled to un paid salary.

You have nothing to loose by talking to the Labour dept other than a few hours

Thanks..hope so. It was the lawyer I am using who told me the Hire for work bit and so said I cannot use the LC...but as long as they are not going to lock me up for not having a WP I may as well use them....

They are not going to lock you up if you talk with the Labour dept, they are not really interested, besides you have documentation which shows the company had promised you a work permit, so you under took the job in good faith expecting a WP to be forthcoming..

You may get somewhere with the labour dept, you may not..but you will not know till you try..... best of luck...and let us know the outcome...

[kaosoi]

Thanks. A couple of quick questions;

1. Where is /are the labour courts?

2. I need someone who speaks Thai...should I use a lawyer?

[Soutpeel]

Thanks. A couple of quick questions;

1. Where is /are the labour courts?

2. I need someone who speaks Thai...should I use a lawyer?

It not the labour court you need at this stage, its the Dept of Labour office closest to you and preferable covers the area where the business you have dispute is....Where are you ? BKK..where ?

As to Thai speaking anybody who understands exactly what the situation is....it could be a lawyer or anybody else who speaks Thai, a lot of the labour offices have people who speak good English, but better turning up prepared.

[kaosoi]

Thanks. A couple of quick questions;

1. Where is /are the labour courts?

2. I need someone who speaks Thai...should I use a lawyer?

It not the labour court you need at this stage, its the Dept of Labour office closest to you and preferable covers the area where the business you have dispute is....Where are you ? BKK..where ?

As to Thai speaking anybody who understands exactly what the situation is....it could be a lawyer or anybody else who speaks Thai, a lot of the labour offices have people who speak good English, but better turning up prepared.

Thanks for the reply.

1. I am in Bangkok, the office was in Silom area/CBD, i live near Ekkamai/Phra Khanong

2. Any idea ow long the process takes?

3. And, is Labour Dept different from the Ministry of Labour?

Edited January 13, 2011 by kaosoi

[kaosoi]

Does anyone know how long the process takes from reporting a case the the labour department to it going to court (in Bkk)?

Thanks.

[kaosoi]

Does anyone know how long the process takes from reporting a case the the labour department to it going to court (in Bkk)?

Thanks.

Anyone?

[kaosoi]

mail to a leading labour lawyer*

Dear ,

Sorry to bother you again. I talked to you before on the phone and told you my situation - no work permit or formal contract (except the email attached) and I am owed money (615,000 baht gross). I kept regular hours, have invoices, witnesses and an email from the ex-employer admitting he owes me salary.

You told me I could not use the labour court as I was not an employee.

Since then I have learned about a few foreigners who have gone to the labour court in my position (no WP or contract) and one lawyer told me this -

"With regards to bringing a claim to the Labour Court, the Labour Court's concept is to protect the interest of the employees so the Court will deal with the unpaid salary regardless of you having a work permit. You have to prove that you were employed by the company and had worked for the company but did not get paid. The work permit issue shall be dealt with separately in the Criminal Court, but the Labour Court itself will not initiate the criminal action against you. This option may take some time but the Labor Court will also try to mediate between employee and employer, so the chance that the mediation will be successful in court is very likely. The employment agreement under Thai law does not need to be in writing, therefore, the court will consider the facts whether there is a relationship as employer and employee or not."

May I double check that I cannot use labour court?

Thank you and Regards,

Reply*

Dear ,

I fully agree with the legal advice quoted in your message.

However, I think it is necessary to clarify the said advice as follows.

"...You have to prove that you were employed (under an employment (hire of service) contract) by the company and had worked for the company but did not get paid..."]

In my view, based on the nature of work you have provided to your ex boss, you were engaged under a hire of work (contractor) contract, not the hire of service (employment) contract. Therefore, you were not an employee of the owner of business who engaged you, and your claim is not subject to the jurisdiction of the Labour Court which has the jurisdiction over only the dispute between the employer and the employee under the hire of service contract.

You may wish to take the advice of another lawyer that you have a legitimate claim. However, I strongly recommend against you pursuing such claim unless you have a legal fee arrangement on success basis.

Best regards,

Edited January 26, 2011 by kaosoi

[Soutpeel]

mail to a leading labour lawyer*

Dear ,

Sorry to bother you again. I talked to you before on the phone and told you my situation - no work permit or formal contract (except the email attached) and I am owed money (615,000 baht gross). I kept regular hours, have invoices, witnesses and an email from the ex-employer admitting he owes me salary.

You told me I could not use the labour court as I was not an employee.

Since then I have learned about a few foreigners who have gone to the labour court in my position (no WP or contract) and one lawyer told me this -

"With regards to bringing a claim to the Labour Court, the Labour Court's concept is to protect the interest of the employees so the Court will deal with the unpaid salary regardless of you having a work permit. You have to prove that you were employed by the company and had worked for the company but did not get paid. The work permit issue shall be dealt with separately in the Criminal Court, but the Labour Court itself will not initiate the criminal action against you. This option may take some time but the Labor Court will also try to mediate between employee and employer, so the chance that the mediation will be successful in court is very likely. The employment agreement under Thai law does not need to be in writing, therefore, the court will consider the facts whether there is a relationship as employer and employee or not."

May I double check that I cannot use labour court?

Thank you and Regards,

Reply*

Dear ,

I fully agree with the legal advice quoted in your message.

However, I think it is necessary to clarify the said advice as follows.

"...You have to prove that you were employed (under an employment (hire of service) contract) by the company and had worked for the company but did not get paid..."]

In my view, based on the nature of work you have provided to your ex boss, you were engaged under a hire of work (contractor) contract, not the hire of service (employment) contract. Therefore, you were not an employee of the owner of business who engaged you, and your claim is not subject to the jurisdiction of the Labour Court which has the jurisdiction over only the dispute between the employer and the employee under the hire of service contract.

You may wish to take the advice of another lawyer that you have a legitimate claim. However, I strongly recommend against you pursuing such claim unless you have a legal fee arrangement on success basis.

Best regards,

First of all not sure whether I agree with the hire of service Vs hire of labour definitions given, my understanding in Thailand defined as below:

Hire of service = Company A employs company B to provide a service ie you employ a repair company/person to fix your aircon, if in the case of a work permit being required, company B would need to provide WP.

Hire of labour = Company A employs a indivdual for contract/job, provides a work permit directly within the company and is therefore an "employee" for the duration.

the test of this in your case is as follows, do you have documentation which shows that your previous employer promised you a work permit, but never delivered....if so intent was to employ you as an "employee", and if in the case of none payment a claim in the labour court is applicable, this seems to be borne out by one of your previous posts " I have an email where he set out T&C with the indication that a WP would come soon"

The lawyer is correct in saying in case of " hire of service" in the example given above would not fall under the authority of the labour court per se, in this case if monies are owed this would be a straight civil case to recover "fees" owed for services rendered - ie Company B would sue company A for none payment of "invoice"

Therefore we can only have possible scenarios as regards legally proceeding with this per my interepretations of the definitions

1. Under hire of service - Recover "salary" by civil claim against former employer - this will require a lawyer to act for you

2. Under hire of labour - Recover "salary via labour court which wouldnt need a lawyer.

In terms of contracts, even if there is no written contract, standard employment conditions as dictated under Thai labour law.

In summary IMHO....believe the intent of your former company was to employ you as an "employee"....given they had indicated they were going to get you a WP, even if they didnt, therefore still believe you could use the labour court to sue for un-paid salary

Have you been to the labour dept yet to discuss your case ?

[kaosoi]

Hi - thanks for the reply.

Have not been to the labour court yet as have been trying to marshal my facts (and was away last week) but I think what you have described above might be the wrong way round. Hire of Service I can go to the labour court (as an employee) but hire of work I cannot (as a contractor).

Sections 575 and 587 of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code on Hire of Services and Hire of Work

Section 575: A hire of services is a contract whereby a person, called the employee, agrees to render services to another person, called the employer, who agrees to pay a remuneration for the duration of the services.

Section 587: A hire of work is a contract whereby a person, called the contractor, agrees to accomplish a definite work for another person, called the employer, who agrees to pay him a remuneration of the result of the work.

I take your point that the employer was making out to me in the email and verbally that I was trying to be an employee but the opinion of a lawyer has been that he was "setting me up" and he knew that I was actually legally a contractor. Whether there is a grey area here and i could argue based on the email i have, the regular work hours i kept etc is what I am trying to get a second opinion on.

In addition the ex-pat before me will lodge a complaint with the labour department next week against that employer for the same situation (unpaid salary) however he got a WP/Visa...possibly a factor as to why the employer was so deceitful about getting me one (he knew there was no question that I would be able to take him to labour court).

Labour Court is preferable over Civil in terms of cost, time and outcome so I want to give it a try - i just want to do it well.

Edited January 27, 2011 by kaosoi

[Soutpeel]

Hi - thanks for the reply.

Have not been to the labour court yet as have been trying to marshal my facts (and was away last week) but I think what you have described above might be the wrong way round. Hire of Service I can go to the labour court (as an employee) but hire of work I cannot (as a contractor).

Sections 575 and 587 of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code on Hire of Services and Hire of Work

Section 575: A hire of services is a contract whereby a person, called the employee, agrees to render services to another person, called the employer, who agrees to pay a remuneration for the duration of the services.

Section 587: A hire of work is a contract whereby a person, called the contractor, agrees to accomplish a definite work for another person, called the employer, who agrees to pay him a remuneration of the result of the work.

I take your point that the employer was making out to me in the email and verbally that I was trying to be an employee but the opinion of a lawyer has been that he was "setting me up" and he knew that I was actually legally a contractor. Whether there is a grey area here and i could argue based on the email i have, the regular work hours i kept etc is what I am trying to get a second opinion on.

In addition the ex-pat before me will lodge a complaint with the labour department next week against that employer for the same situation (unpaid salary) however he got a WP/Visa...possibly a factor as to why the employer was so deceitful about getting me one (he knew there was no question that I would be able to take him to labour court).

Labour Court is preferable over Civil in terms of cost, time and outcome so I want to give it a try - i just want to do it well.

Rather than getting into what an English translation of a Thai law means, look at your next move

1. the response for your lawyer "the opinion of a lawyer has been that he was "setting me up" "......this is a bit irrelevant, as a lawyer should be dealing in "facts"...the fact is you have an email which outlines T&C's and the promise of a work permit., therefore the "intent" was to take you on as an employee, irrspective of what the outcome was, you went into this in good faith expecting to be taken on as an employee, carried out work and the employer has reneged on the agreement.

2. the expat who will lodge a complaint, you need to join forces him and visit the Labour department and even if the labour dept says you have no case under them, you name is on the record and if the expat is sucessful, you have set a precedent for a civil case for yourself.

3. You have documentation wherein the company concerned acknowleges they owe you money.

Step 1. - Visit the labour office with the other expat and lodge a complaint at the same time, it builds both your cases, even if they will not take your case on

Step 2 - If step 1 doesnt work for you...go for a civil case

For the amount of money thats owed, it would be worth spending some money to get the cash owed to you

[kaosoi]

Thanks for your help. i will go to the Labour Court.

The "setting me up" comment was a statement of how we should focus on fact - that I have been set up reflects that because of how the employer phrased the contract i may be considered a contractor rather than employee.

Anyway, lets see...will update the thread post visit.

[pj123]

I took my former employer to the labour court near Hua Lumpong station. I had no work permit. They were not interested. They said it was irrelevant; that with or without a work permit you are still protected by Thai labour law. You do not need a lawyer but I did bring my wife to act as translator. They will not provide a translator. The staff at the court were very helpful and friendly in providing advice. You tell them the facts and they will draft the legal documents you need to submit a case to the court. However, its your job to prepare the evidence to support your case. My case went to a preliminary hearing but we eventually settled out of court as I did not want to involve my wife any longer as (although she was very supportive) it was stressing her out. I am confident that if we had continued the court would have ruled in my favour. Good luck.

[kaosoi]

I took my former employer to the labour court near Hua Lumpong station. I had no work permit. They were not interested. They said it was irrelevant; that with or without a work permit you are still protected by Thai labour law. You do not need a lawyer but I did bring my wife to act as translator. They will not provide a translator. The staff at the court were very helpful and friendly in providing advice. You tell them the facts and they will draft the legal documents you need to submit a case to the court. However, its your job to prepare the evidence to support your case. My case went to a preliminary hearing but we eventually settled out of court as I did not want to involve my wife any longer as (although she was very supportive) it was stressing her out. I am confident that if we had continued the court would have ruled in my favour. Good luck.

Thanks and sorry for the late acknowledgement. Yes, I am pushing ahead with LC.

For everyone's information, and as a supplement to pj123's first hand experience, I have heard various opinions on whether I could use LC or not and whether there is a risk if I did not have a WP. Some people (lawyers and business people) have given opinions that I could not BUT 5 separate specialists (labour lawyers and litigators) at 5 of the biggest international firms in Bkk have said I can. Here is one example:

With regards to bringing a claim to the Labour Court, the Labour Court’s concept is to protect the interest of the employees so the Court will deal with the unpaid salary regardless of you having a work permit. You have to prove that you were employed by the company and had worked for the company but did not get paid. The work permit issue shall be dealt with separately in the Criminal Court, but the Labour Court itself will not initiate the criminal action against you. This option may take some time but the Labor Court will also try to mediate between employee and employer, so the chance that the mediation will be successful in court is very likely.

Useful to bear in mind.

Now the only remaining question for me is whether I should use a lawyer or not - will it seriously disadvantage my case not to have one?

[kaosoi]

Just as a quick follow up i have been to labour court and lodged my claim - they have taken it on and there will be a preliminary hearing next month.

The labour court lawyer said I can get unpaid salary + interest + unfair dismissal + notification pay. Severance is blurry because I was on commission.

Lets see how it goes.

[jdinasia]

Just as a quick follow up i have been to labour court and lodged my claim - they have taken it on and there will be a preliminary hearing next month.

The labour court lawyer said I can get unpaid salary + interest + unfair dismissal + notification pay. Severance is blurry because I was on commission.

Lets see how it goes.

Good news for you!

[kaosoi]

No settlement reached and it will go to trial.

1. Commission is the big point - in Thailand is someone working on commission an "employee" or an independent contractor?

2.In most countries factors like these are considered key criteria: http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/business-forms-contracts/business-forms-contracts-a-to-z/form1-21.html

I match all the criteria for an employee except I was paid on commission

How about here?