givenall Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Interesting the highest percentage in the North East. I thought they were all in favor of democracy. the poll go's to show that only a minority are interested in Democracy. As long as they can get a Baht in the hand now who cares. Then we come to Bangkok the second highest percentage. The stronghold of the yellow shirts who only wanted to grant 30% of the seats to be filled by voting. And lost in the middle is the people who really believe in democracy . oops forgot to mention how predictable. Where have you been. :rolleyes: These Red Shirts only come to protest because they are paid for the day they come to Bkk. Some of the money for these protest come from the big shops to make sure these protest are some place outside of their business areas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTang Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) I come to this site because I enjoy reading other peoples opinions even if I don't agree with them, and I also enjoy occasionally expressing my own. I certainly wouldn't consider it arguing, although I have witnessed a few flame wars on this site. Most politicians all over the world, (not just Thailand) get into politics for power and personal gain, not because of a virtuous desire to help others. In the US it's usually the politicians that are bought not the voters. Which is the worse of the two evils? Your guess is as good as mine. But I certainly wouldn't leave Thailand because I was all upset about vote buying. Debating about it on a forum such as this is just a form of entertainment and expats are well aware that there is nothing they can do about it regardless of their opinion. Edited January 16, 2011 by TimTang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatcharanan Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Interesting the highest percentage in the North East. I thought they were all in favor of democracy. the poll go's to show that only a minority are interested in Democracy. The perventage is higher due to the very low average wages up North. You try taking care of a family on those wages and you would soon be tempted to take any politicians money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayjay0 Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Interesting the highest percentage in the North East. I thought they were all in favor of democracy. the poll go's to show that only a minority are interested in Democracy. As long as they can get a Baht in the hand now who cares. Then we come to Bangkok the second highest percentage. The stronghold of the yellow shirts who only wanted to grant 30% of the seats to be filled by voting. And lost in the middle is the people who really believe in democracy . oops forgot to mention how predictable. Where have you been. :rolleyes: These Red Shirts only come to protest because they are paid for the day they come to Bkk. Some of the money for these protest come from the big shops to make sure these protest are some place outside of their business areas Every one knows that. Whats your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthepink Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Just because you decided to live like bear grylls for a bit and like to think by wiping your arse with leafs makes you like the thais in the NE, it doesn't. You do have money if you live in Thailand or are from money. You haven't grown up with nothing, had to walk km's for water, slept outside on a bench and worked on a farm alday for 100bht and then have to send your parents money. If you did you would be taking the money and voting and not yappping on a forum about people taking 500bht to vote, it's not aimed at you. Mostly the idiots on TV that have thousands of posts moaning about Thailand or thai people, yet still choose to live here. Threads such as this one do seem to reveal a large number of idiots posting on this forum who can't wait to tell the world how stupid they think Thai people are. It says a lot about them that they ended up living here and in many cases, judging from the comments they make about their own wives and families, have managed to fit in well at the very bottom of Thai society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginjag Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Who really cares? If you live here you're not poor and will never know what it's really like to live and grow up in Issan. And i'm not talking about your nice newly fancy built house with electrical water pumps and heaters in Surin either. You live, stay and visit here as a farang and will never be a thai citizen, you do and should have no say in the country what so ever, so why argue about it on a forum? Many otjher countrys to go if you dont like it or agree with thai people, simples. Wish the UK was more like thailand, got muslims parading at dead soldiers funerals and allowed to vote and build mosques everywhere. Would like to see that happen here. I do live here, in Issan, I,m not rich, I have dwelled in thai Houses and slept on rush mats, Cut sugar cane, harvested rice in the fields, made reed roofs, foraged 6am for young bamboo shoots, mushrooms, cut down and made bamboo fences, live in a very rural village.And as to my earlier post, what I said was going on voting wise is accurate. I don't think I've got a say in the running of the country, I am still classed as a visitor.I dont argue it on forum unless someone like you starts to tell people to go elsewhere. I,ve been here 30 years, dont lecture me if you have not experienced it properly. I dont agree with the policing mainly, its holding the country up more than anything. But I live with it. Tell me where your area is and what you have done to help here.??? dont class everyone the same. Just because you decided to live like bear grylls for a bit and like to think by wiping your arse with leafs makes you like the thais in the NE, it doesn't. You do have money if you live in Thailand or are from money. You haven't grown up with nothing, had to walk km's for water, slept outside on a bench and worked on a farm alday for 100bht and then have to send your parents money.If you did you would be taking the money and voting and not yappping on a forum about people taking 500bht to vote, it's not aimed at you. Mostly the idiots on TV that have thousands of posts moaning about Thailand or thai people, yet still choose to live here. Because I lived in England worked -and earned 100 bht a week as a butcher, at 15--Yes, and pushed a pram 2 miles to get mother coal. didn,t have a bike. wore my uncles handed down clothes, later in life I had 3 jobs in 1 day,6 hours sleap a day for ten years to get here, and I wanted to see how it felt as a thai, so I could understand them more, and lived in the rural north. Sort of coming back down to my childhood, doing this not on an ego trip-enjoyed it. You contradicted yourself badly -you said it wasn't aimed at me-look at your 1st paragraph !!!!- dont class everyone the same --believe me on forum you get your clicks. but if you don't like forum don't join in. I certainly will not move away, just because I have my little moan-i,m entitled to it -I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Because I lived in England worked -and earned 100 bht a week as a butcher, at 15--Yes, and pushed a pram 2 miles to get mother coal. didn,t have a bike. wore my uncles handed down clothes, later in life I had 3 jobs in 1 day,6 hours sleap a day for ten years to get here, and I wanted to see how it felt as a thai, so I could understand them more, and lived in the rural north. Sort of coming back down to my childhood, doing this not on an ego trip-enjoyed it. You have been here 30-years (according to an earlier post), worked a sh@t job at 15 and then later in life worked 10 years only getting 6-hours asleep a night to be able to get here and get back to your childhood. Kind of sounds like you have made a conscious choice to spend the better part of 55 years choosing to work hard and live poor. I would think this doesn't qualify you any more than us in terms of understanding Thais. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTang Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) ...my wife believes that she was destined to live outside of Thailand because her second toe is longer than her big toe...... Tonight when your girl friend is fast asleep fire up the ol' belt sander, but don't forget your goggles 'cause it could get messy. That should get rid of any wanderlust she may be struggling with, once and for all. I have reached nirvana and become one with the Thai mind :jap: Edited January 16, 2011 by TimTang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 how did they do the poll. by offering people money ? Would that be like a poll vote like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 ...my wife believes that she was destined to live outside of Thailand because her second toe is longer than her big toe...... Tonight when your girl friend is fast asleep fire up the ol' belt sander, but don't forget your goggles 'cause it could get messy. That should get rid of any wanderlust she may be struggling with, once and for all. I have reached nirvana and become one with the Thai mind :jap: how does that work my tow is bigger thann my big toe and i live in thailand from abroad. infact so does my bird and she is thai. so either she will live abroad. which mean that we a re destined to finsih as i am already living abroad. with a broad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTang Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 how did they do the poll. by offering people money ? Would that be like a poll vote like Yes, they were asked "would you sell your vote for 500 baht" and everyone that answered NO got 500 baht. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkawish Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 My wife's family make about 500 baht each for very illegible voter in their family. I ask a while back as they were collecting their money where I could get mine and they just laughed. That is pretty cheap.... Around some districts here.... Each was collecting 5,000 THB.... One of our assistants was asking for a day off to help disbursing money.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterwhisper Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Surprise, surprise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglist Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 If you don’t educate or provide hope this is what you get, people who have no faith in those who lead and don’t think it matters who they vote for. Neither side really cares about them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavefloater Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I have to give these vote-selling Thais more credit for being smart than I usually would. At least they've caught on that it doesn't really matter who gets voted into office as politicians are not in office to serve the people -- they're there to serve big business and elitists. Why not sell one's vote? It makes no difference. After the last US elections, I hope many people, and especially the youth, realize that there isn't really any such thing as democracy. Obama seemed as opposite a candidate to Bush as anyone could be. However, we can all see that there has been virtually no change from the Bush administration. Health care has been deferred (to keep the rich doctors happy), more soldiers are in Iraq and Afghanistan than ever before, Obama has increase the US military budget to new highs, etc. So it really doesn't matter which clown gets voted in or what the name of the party is that he belongs to. None of them get into power without being approved by the obscenely rich elite. I'd sell my vote in a heartbeat anywhere in the world. Politicians and their elections are nothing more than smoke and mirrors to fool people into believing that they actually have some choice and power in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) My wife's family make about 500 baht each for very illegible voter in their family. I ask a while back as they were collecting their money where I could get mine and they just laughed. That is pretty cheap.... Around some districts here.... Each was collecting 5,000 THB.... One of our assistants was asking for a day off to help disbursing money.... I've read that the going rate is 2,000 baht. I wonder how many people in the west would sell their vote for a weeks wages. And since we don't know the wording of the question that was actually asked it really could have been asked in a way that had made those being polled believe they could name their price. Edited January 17, 2011 by Nisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Some interesting thoughts about money politics here from Korn: Question to Korn from Jonathan Head of the BBC: Why are the Democrats always unable to win more votes in the Northeast? Answer by Korn: I can tell you what is not the issue. People like to divide the camps into rural and urban. The majority of the southern voters are rural. The popularity of Thaksin in the North and Northeast is undeniable. It is also undeniable that traditionally they have been less politically acitive then southerners. It is also undeniable that money politics is less prevalent. We we have less money than PPP. However I agree with Chris [baker], money “is the price you pay to play the game but it doesn’t dictate whether if you win or lose”. “If a candidate today in Loei runs under the Democrat banner for him to try to win he would need to spend two or three times more than his PPP opponent in order to win and even then he still might lose. This is exactly what happened in the last election. “A number of former TRT MPs defected to Puea Paendin and they outpsent PPP three to one and they still lost”. This goes along way to confirming what Chris said, but money is no longer determinative of your success. What Thaksin did was to make that connection and make it directly relevant to his target group. We are less afraid to compete against vote-buying than the buying of MPs. I still believe at the end of the day that if you sold your vote it is still your decision in the ballot box. However, it would be very ineffective for the Democrats to buy a Northeastern MP. Simply at the end of the day we cannot go against the will of the people and no amount of money will help. http://asiancorrespondent.com/19554/korn-on-the-democrats-in-the-northeast/ Also, have people really "sold" their votes? In a lot of places every party hands out money, and if you don't accept it you might be singled out as actively against the party you received money from. In some places there might be more intimidation than others though. I'm not really sure the ECT does enough to make sure everyone feels safe. However, from rural Thais I've spoken to, including some from the NE, I gather than this is more-or-less true in most places: “Honestly speaking, this is normal,” said Somporn Trisak, owner of a small roadside restaurant in a rice-farming community near Nakhon Ratchasima city. “Every party hands out money. People take money from everyone, but who they vote for is up to them.” http://asiancorrespondent.com/20633/vote-buying-and-polls/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Are CNN, BBC and Reuters putting this issue into their headlines...along side the news on govt moves against the red protestors clamoring for democracy? The fact that only 11.9 are actively against the government (which would surely be all reds) suggests that not too many red shirts were polled. One of the motivations for their protest was that people constantly accuse them of being bought off. Saying that all the votes were bought was one of the justifications for the 2006 coup, of course. It's either that used as an excuse for disenfranchising the electorate, or corrupt MPs etc. Well, these things don't disappear over night. Vote buying was far worse in the mid-90s so I'm told, why not just let democracy take its course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Are CNN, BBC and Reuters putting this issue into their headlines...along side the news on govt moves against the red protestors clamoring for democracy? The fact that only 11.9 are actively against the government (which would surely be all reds) suggests that not too many red shirts were polled. One of the motivations for their protest was that people constantly accuse them of being bought off. Saying that all the votes were bought was one of the justifications for the 2006 coup, of course. It's either that used as an excuse for disenfranchising the electorate, or corrupt MPs etc. Well, these things don't disappear over night. Vote buying was far worse in the mid-90s so I'm told, why not just let democracy take its course? I am sure that people are reading FAR too much into the numbers like the 11.9% (which would NOT absolutely only be reds). Would you really trust anyone on the other end of a phoneline enough to say you were "actively against..." anyone in Thailand? Was vote buying one of the justifications of the 2006 coup? I don't remember the generals saying that. That the highest percentage of people willing to sell their votes was in Isaan doesn't surprise me, nor does the second number being BKK surprise me since BKK is made up largely of people that were not born and raised there. Past that I wouldn't put too much into the poll (or any poll in Thailand). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I am sure that people are reading FAR too much into the numbers like the 11.9% (which would NOT absolutely only be reds). Would you really trust anyone on the other end of a phoneline enough to say you were "actively against..." anyone in Thailand? Was vote buying one of the justifications of the 2006 coup? I don't remember the generals saying that. That the highest percentage of people willing to sell their votes was in Isaan doesn't surprise me, nor does the second number being BKK surprise me since BKK is made up largely of people that were not born and raised there. Past that I wouldn't put too much into the poll (or any poll in Thailand). "Was vote buying one of the justifications of the 2006 coup?" Certainly used by others to justify the coup, if not by the junta itself. Although Sonthi B did say that the problem is that many Thai people don't understand democracy. You're probably right about the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carken Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 What surprises me is the number of people who are surprised that Thailand is like the rest of the world Wake up and smell the money folks. Isn't the world today all about money and who can get the most. In todays world the Elite Ruling Class of every country are more in charge then they have ever been in any time in history. The ignorant sheeple, dat be you and I Mr Newman are just living in self inflicted denial..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominique355 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I would like to see an ad, something like that: If someone offers you money for your vote, take the money and come to me and report the name of that person, if possible bring a witness, and get paid xxx THB for your report! We guarantee 100 discretion. Now would that help this criminal habit of vote buying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginjag Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) Because I lived in England worked -and earned 100 bht a week as a butcher, at 15--Yes, and pushed a pram 2 miles to get mother coal. didn,t have a bike. wore my uncles handed down clothes, later in life I had 3 jobs in 1 day,6 hours sleap a day for ten years to get here, and I wanted to see how it felt as a thai, so I could understand them more, and lived in the rural north. Sort of coming back down to my childhood, doing this not on an ego trip-enjoyed it. You have been here 30-years (according to an earlier post), worked a sh@t job at 15 and then later in life worked 10 years only getting 6-hours asleep a night to be able to get here and get back to your childhood. Kind of sounds like you have made a conscious choice to spend the better part of 55 years choosing to work hard and live poor. I would think this doesn't qualify you any more than us in terms of understanding Thais. For your information book worm, A butchers trade is not a sh+t job, what an ignorant remark. What sh+t job did you do after school.? My remarks were answering another clever individual. I dont find working hard and long for 10 years to enable me to be here wrong. Wanting to be able to feel how hard their low pay work is -you have to do it to know -not look on google and Qualify you--555 You don;t have a licence, you didn,t know if they had organised driving tuition here!! (defending the wrong )and always comparing the u.s.a.-with here. He--the poster before you) thought I was a person thats from money-or I had plenty, he was wrong-I defended myself and gave him examples---you came in with no common sense and lectured me-r..sole. you have a nerve. get out of the library more, When you have more experience in hardship, then you may qualify. Edited January 17, 2011 by ginjag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I would like to see an ad, something like that: If someone offers you money for your vote, take the money and come to me and report the name of that person, if possible bring a witness, and get paid xxx THB for your report! We guarantee 100 discretion. Now would that help this criminal habit of vote buying? The possible repercussions wouldn't be worth the money, unless you're talking about huge amounts. Anyway, you can't just have people reporting it (some do report it), you also need evidence, videos of them handing out money etc. Suppose it wouldn't be that difficult to do but most don't consider it worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 The facts about vote-buying and the patronage system "In the last couple of years, there have been studies of election practice in the North, Northeast, and South. The decision on casting a vote is now very complex and involves the party, the candidate, and the money. In the South, voters feel a strong emotional pull to vote Democrat. In the North and Northeast, Thaksin's schemes have created a strong pull towards the People Power Party/Thai Rak Thai. Yet the candidate also undergoes scrutiny. Is he a local person, someone close to us? Can he get things done, and does he have the track record to prove it? Is he reasonably honest? Does he have the right kind of friends? Finally, does he prove his generosity with a gift? Only candidates known to have modest wealth are excused this obligation, yet can still be elected on grounds of their social contribution.At the recent poll, there did not seem to be much money around. After three elections in three years, pockets were empty. Candidates feared disqualification. The issue at stake in the poll was so stark, that a few hundred baht was not likely to matter. So why the current panic about vote-buying? The upcountry electorate is richer, better educated, and more experienced at elections than ever before. In truth, the problem is not that upcountry voters don't know how to use their vote, and that the result is distorted by patronage and vote-buying. The problem is that they have learnt to use the vote only too well. Over four national polls, they have chosen very consistently and very rationally." http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/09/01/opinion/opinion_30082102.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) It is worth note that post 85 by emptyset is an op/ed piece. (By someone that history would suggest is worth listening to even if you don't agree or have anecdotal evidence to the contrary.) He has a bias (as we all tend to.) He barely scratches the surface of the kanman system and election canvassers at all and instead claims that what is present is a more sophisticated voter in the rural NE. That is very very arguable edit to add ........ Electoral fraud (such as killed TRT) is far more encompassing than just vote buying. Edited January 17, 2011 by jdinasia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ib1b4 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 In the village in the north east that I live the majority take the money from all partys handing money out but vote the way they wanted to do anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce1 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I thought village leaders got together and played off the candidates for the one who made the best offer to benefit their village and then told everyone to vote that way, or is that wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ib1b4 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I thought village leaders got together and played off the candidates for the one who made the best offer to benefit their village and then told everyone to vote that way, or is that wrong? surely you are not implying that thai people are unable to understand the voting system and follow their supposed village leaders , the vote buying goes to individuals up this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) I am sure that people are reading FAR too much into the numbers like the 11.9% (which would NOT absolutely only be reds). Would you really trust anyone on the other end of a phoneline enough to say you were "actively against..." anyone in Thailand? Was vote buying one of the justifications of the 2006 coup? I don't remember the generals saying that. That the highest percentage of people willing to sell their votes was in Isaan doesn't surprise me, nor does the second number being BKK surprise me since BKK is made up largely of people that were not born and raised there. Past that I wouldn't put too much into the poll (or any poll in Thailand). "Was vote buying one of the justifications of the 2006 coup?" Certainly used by others to justify the coup, if not by the junta itself. Although Sonthi B did say that the problem is that many Thai people don't understand democracy. You're probably right about the numbers. I thought the junta were the ones that did the coup. If vote buying wasn't listed as one of their reasons for doing the coup, what does it matter if "others" said it said was one of the justifications, as afterall, "others" didn't do the coup. Edited January 17, 2011 by Buchholz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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