My Answer To Sin Sod.

[Longbow212]

After much thought I have reached what I believe is the answer to sin sod requests that you do not feel comfortable paying.

I appreciate many people in the provinces are uneducated but this does not excuse the belief that all farang are rich and therefore should give handouts to their Thai girlfriend and her family. I believe this is a disgraceful assumption and do not wish to cause any further perpetuation of this rumour and expectation. I am a principled man and believe working to support oneself is paramount for self-respect and independence.

I am and know others that are looking at potential marriage in the coming years to a girl the same age which has caused me to think long and hard about sin sod. To me this is wrong, like buying a farm animal and especially wrong when I can imagine the eyes of the family lighting up at how much money they will get from farang (they cant remember his name so just call him farang) when they sell their prized daughter. I do not care about the money and find turning something which should be sacred - companionship for life, into a money making opportunity quite sickening.

I have decided that I will politefully and respectfully refuse to pay it. I will explain that in my culture this is very wrong and does not make logical sense nor can I understand how any Buddhist should wish to partake in such a transaction. If a woman wishes to marry me it is because she wants to be with me and share a life together. Any sums of money I have will go towards providing for my own family. I strongly believe in compromising where possible on all cultural issues but sin sod is not something I can compromise on and will respect her decision should she not wish to go ahead with marriage.

This is firmly standing by my principals and could cost me the relationship but for me I feel it is worth it not to be taken for a ride and to know that my girlfriend is with me because of who I am and not because she wants a cushy life and someone to sponge off. Should she still choose to be with me I may well help her family out were possible but the line will be drawn from day one that I am not a walking ATM machine.

[cdnvic]

I would just stop after telling them that it is not acceptable in your culture, and forget the part where you lecture them on theirs if you want any hope of it being accepted.

[Boo]

a person can only do what they think is right. being forced to pay something you morally object to will not make a good basis of any relationship so stick to your guns & hope for a positive outcome

and it might not hurt to throw in that in many western cultures it is the father of the bride who pays for their daughters wedding

[mca]

being forced to pay something you morally object to

I feel in quite a few cases it's not the moral objection Boo. Put bluntly it's the small dark voice deep in the heart of the groom whispering the truism that the love of their life simply isn't 7 figure baht sinsod material and the prize herd milking has begun but ( for some unfathomable reason ) a stand isn't taken there and then and all sorts of other feeble cultural differences/moral half arsed excuses are put up.

Edited January 19, 2011 by mca

[endure]

My very best friend is a jai dee Thai man - a man of unimpeachable honesty and integrity. At the moment he lives in the UK. His son has been going out with a Thai girl for the past two years. They're going to get married. Before that happens my friend will be flying to Thailand to talk to the girl's parents to arrange a suitable sinsot. He's expecting the amount to be about 1 million baht. This is perfectly acceptable to him because that's the way things happen in Thailand. Sinsot is the way things are done in Thailand as far as he's concerned. When you visit a country on the far side of the world where the people speak a different language, use a different alphabet and practice a different religion you must expect that things are not the same as they are in the country you left behind.

[chiang mai]

The OP seems to have planted his flag on the moral high ground which at this stage in the proceedings is fine. Perhaps he will let us know in due course, after he has had the debate with his beloved and her family, how much he actually paid. The point to be made here of course is that it's one thing to declare such morals and standards but another thing entirely to follow through, at the risk of losing the relationship.

[craigt3365]

My very best friend is a jai dee Thai man - a man of unimpeachable honesty and integrity. At the moment he lives in the UK. His son has been going out with a Thai girl for the past two years. They're going to get married. Before that happens my friend will be flying to Thailand to talk to the girl's parents to arrange a suitable sinsot. He's expecting the amount to be about 1 million baht. This is perfectly acceptable to him because that's the way things happen in Thailand. Sinsot is the way things are done in Thailand as far as he's concerned. When you visit a country on the far side of the world where the people speak a different language, use a different alphabet and practice a different religion you must expect that things are not the same as they are in the country you left behind.

+1

It's a face thing. Easy enough to hand it over and get it back the next day. Unless of course you are a lucky one and marry into a good family...then helping out is not such a bad thing. My father helped out my mother's family for years back in the US.

[CallumW]

I've been through all this in my on mind over and over again in the last few years. Let me explain the place I have got to now.

When my GF and I first met, we didn't really talk about marriage until years later, she knew from the start I had a natural aversion to marriage having seen every family member back in the UK end up with nothing but problems due to failed marriages.

After being together for around a year, she fell pregnant, and nine months later my Son was born. I was 40 years old at that stage, and had been a free agent all my life. She was 34 and was enjoying the lifestyle my permanent holiday status gave us, so the arrival of a child was an event which changed things in the extreme.

I would like to say that I managed to transition from eligible bachelor to committed father without mishap. However, I did have problems adjusting my life to the responsibility of taking care of a child. As I have mentioned, I had remained free of any kind of commitment for 40 years, and had enjoyed a life travelling the globe and residing where I wished when I wished, and I found the weight of this new responsibility uncomfortable, I felt imprisoned. My GF had no such problems, she was extremely happy, this just annoyed me more!

A year later and the problems were (mostly) behind me, and I had adjusted to the idea of being a full-time father, and we began to speak about marriage. At this stage Sin Sod was spoken about. I quite firmly told both my GF and her parents that although I would be willing to pay Sin Sod as part of the tradition of a Thai wedding, I would not be giving them a truck load of cash, as in my mind my Son was now the most important factor, providing for him and his future.

At first I could tell they thought I was only joking, and that I would come around in the end. Luckily we never had to get to the crunch moment, I will explain why. About a year ago now, I built a small house out in the village, and came to live there full-time. I had already toured Thailand extensively during the previous years, and felt it would be nice to take a break for a while and get to know my new family. Things were great for the first few months, OK a few too many villagers were a little too fond of drinking my beer stock, but nothing too much, and I didn't begrudge a few bottles extra a week, and they were good company. After around 4 month, my business in the UK hit a tough spot, and my income was reduced drastically, and I mean drastically, I went from receiving around 60k Baht a week from the profits of the company to about 5k Baht a week.We managed at first, but then things like insurance bills started piling up unpaid, and I was seriously considering going back to the UK for the first time in five years.

During this time, my new family helped us out, they would pop round with a few beers, make sure we had enough food, all the things you would expect a family to do. After a few weeks of this, my team in the UK managed to turn the business around, and I began to receive a much better income again. We thanked the family for helping out and that wast that I figured. But something strange happened then. People stopped dropping by at meal times for some free food, people would still come to drink a beer with me but more often than not they would bring a bottle of beer with them, overall they stopped treating me like a never ending source of cash. When I spoke to my GF about this she laughed, and told me her father had said he didn't know that farang could run out of money.

Now things are pretty cool, and the funny thing is that this short episode has changed the view of a lot of the village people here. My GF came home last week with a big grin on her face, clearly thinking something was highly amusing. When I asked her what it as she explained to me that one of the old ladies who sits in the small grocery shop all day drinking lao kao, was boasting that her daughter had a new boyfriend who was a farang, and that he was sending her (the mother) 20k Baht a month, each of her children 20k Baht a month (there are 3), and the GF her self 50k Baht a month, so that's a total of 110k Baht a month. One of our neighbours had openly called her a drunk old liar, and to show him the bank books to follow up her claims, as she clearly had no idea of exactly how much money farangs make when they are at home working. I found this amusing myself, sure there are people back home who could afford to send $3000 every month, but not very many, and I figure anyone who could afford $3000 a month would be bright enough not to!

I digress, I was talking about SIn Sod I apologise I got sidetracked

Anyway, the current situation is that Papa says just throw him about 30k Baht, but he'll pay that towards the part anyway, so pretty much zero Sin Sod. How did I get to this point? By being honest, I didn't hide anything from my new family, and they responded by showing an impressive amount of consideration.

Edited January 20, 2011 by CallumW

[tartempion]

+1

It's a face thing. Easy enough to hand it over and get it back the next day.

Ah, face , soooo important, more than other things in life......

[TAWP]

CallumW >> The problem is that your story - the outcome - only happens when good people are involved. Yes, some will realize that 'we' can run out of money too. Others will tell the daughter to look for a new [richer] bf.

[Valentine]

When in Rome as they say. Thai on Thai practice sin sod so why would they expect anything less for their daughter.

[CallumW]

CallumW >> The problem is that your story - the outcome - only happens when good people are involved. Yes, some will realize that 'we' can run out of money too. Others will tell the daughter to look for a new [richer] bf.

Yes you are entirely correct, my story paints a particularly one sided picture. I fully agree that there are thousands of farang who have the opposite situation. I just wanted to show that there can be a different outcome. In truth, if my GFs family were different then the story would be different. The mother is dead, the father is quite happy with what he has in his life, he won't even ride a scooter, walks everywhere. The brothers and sisters all have their own careers, so they really are not too badly off. They ain't rich, but they don't go hungry and they have a pretty good life.

[CallumW]

Actually, something that might be interesting to toss into the mix here, and something I have found very interesting.

My GF was asked by the poo yai ban to perform the yearly village census, go out and collect data on income, expenditure, crops, livestock, borrowing and all sorts, its quite a long and complicated form she has to fill in for each family she interviews.

I of course have been entirely nosy, and checked out many of these completed forms.

I have learned to ditch my original conception of farmers being too poor to feed and clothe themselves, some of these people are better off than me. Just because they live in a shack with a tin roof does not mean they are poor, far from it in many cases.

[Berkshire]

My very best friend is a jai dee Thai man - a man of unimpeachable honesty and integrity. At the moment he lives in the UK. His son has been going out with a Thai girl for the past two years. They're going to get married. Before that happens my friend will be flying to Thailand to talk to the girl's parents to arrange a suitable sinsot. He's expecting the amount to be about 1 million baht. This is perfectly acceptable to him because that's the way things happen in Thailand. Sinsot is the way things are done in Thailand as far as he's concerned. When you visit a country on the far side of the world where the people speak a different language, use a different alphabet and practice a different religion you must expect that things are not the same as they are in the country you left behind.

Nice story. Quite the contradiction to many of the sinsot stories we've heard, comparing Thai men to farang men. It seems the OP has painted himself into a corner. Would be curious to hear how things turn out for him.

[robblok]

My very best friend is a jai dee Thai man - a man of unimpeachable honesty and integrity. At the moment he lives in the UK. His son has been going out with a Thai girl for the past two years. They're going to get married. Before that happens my friend will be flying to Thailand to talk to the girl's parents to arrange a suitable sinsot. He's expecting the amount to be about 1 million baht. This is perfectly acceptable to him because that's the way things happen in Thailand. Sinsot is the way things are done in Thailand as far as he's concerned. When you visit a country on the far side of the world where the people speak a different language, use a different alphabet and practice a different religion you must expect that things are not the same as they are in the country you left behind.

Yes good one.. however if you get into a relationship with someone from an other country you will have to accept you cant have it your way always. This time the Thai family misses out. You cant expect the foreigner to give up his beliefs all the time. I strongly objected to it and never paid a dime. I would only pay if i was an old sod and wanted a young wife. Not if i genuinely was in her age bracket and wanted to build up something.

[mca]

Before that happens my friend will be flying to Thailand to talk to the girl's parents to arrange a suitable sinsot. He's expecting the amount to be about 1 million baht. This is perfectly acceptable to him because that's the way things happen in Thailand. Sinsot is the way things are done in Thailand as far as he's concerned.

Of course but in a Thai on Thai situation I feel sure if the amount of a million is on the table then the bride to be is a girl of a decent level of education, family background etc. herself.

I'm sure your friend wouldn't be taken for a mug if his son showed up with some of the spoiled goods horror stories some westerners seem to latch on to.

[stiggy]

In most western cultures it cost nothing to marry them< but after a while it costs everything to get rid of them.

A good friend recently paid approx 1.5 mil in cultral sin sot payment, on the wedding day he was presented with a house valued at over 4 mill buy the parents.

Before everyone assumes its all in her name it was property in Australia that they now both own.

[samran]

Depends who you are marry I guess.

Marrying a hill billy farm girl = Giving the money and never seeing it again from the parents.

Marrying the daughter of a middle class family (or above) = Giving the money and seeing it returned 'in kind' (and then probably some) the very next day.

I struggle to see why there is all this fuss about Sin Sod....you make your bed, you lie in it.

[robblok]

In most western cultures it cost nothing to marry them< but after a while it costs everything to get rid of them.

A good friend recently paid approx 1.5 mil in cultral sin sot payment, on the wedding day he was presented with a house valued at over 4 mill buy the parents.

Before everyone assumes its all in her name it was property in Australia that they now both own.

And now your friend is double f**ked. I take it he lives in Australia with her ? If so then he will have to pay alimoney if it all fails and he paid sinsod already and put a house partly in her name. So if my assumption (of them living in Australia) is correct he will be paying double in the event of a break up.

[robblok]

Depends who you are marry I guess.

Marrying a hill billy farm girl = Giving the money and never seeing it again from the parents.

Marrying the daughter of a middle class family (or above) = Giving the money and seeing it returned 'in kind' (and then probably some) the very next day.

I struggle to see why there is all this fuss about Sin Sod....you make your bed, you lie in it.

Sure in the end its up to the person. I just got strong views against the first situation you are describing. The second no problem.

[backfromouterspace]

My very best friend is a jai dee Thai man - a man of unimpeachable honesty and integrity. At the moment he lives in the UK. His son has been going out with a Thai girl for the past two years. They're going to get married. Before that happens my friend will be flying to Thailand to talk to the girl's parents to arrange a suitable sinsot. He's expecting the amount to be about 1 million baht. This is perfectly acceptable to him because that's the way things happen in Thailand. Sinsot is the way things are done in Thailand as far as he's concerned. When you visit a country on the far side of the world where the people speak a different language, use a different alphabet and practice a different religion you must expect that things are not the same as they are in the country you left behind.

But the odds are the Thai bloke isnt marrying a slapper from Buriram.

[OxfordWill]

I would just stop after telling them that it is not acceptable in your culture, and forget the part where you lecture them on theirs if you want any hope of it being accepted.

+1

Edited January 20, 2011 by OxfordWill

[ozzydom]

In most western cultures it cost nothing to marry them< but after a while it costs everything to get rid of them.

A good friend recently paid approx 1.5 mil in cultral sin sot payment, on the wedding day he was presented with a house valued at over 4 mill buy the parents.

Before everyone assumes its all in her name it was property in Australia that they now both own.

Are the amounts you are talking in Thai baht or Oz $,s ?

If its AUD that is a 40,000,000 baht sinsod (a bit unbelievable)

If its Thai baht please tell us where in Oz a house can be purchased for $120,000.

[kropotkin]

It is so simple.

YES sin sot IS a thai tradition.

BUT it is an outdated, backward tradition.

CHOOSE: educate uneducated people, or let uneducated people dis-educate you.

what more can be said about the subject?

Oops - one more thing CAN be said.

Buying a much younger wife is a completely different story - pay the price, that is only fair, and it is a seller's market.

[Wavefloater]

The way that the first entry is written leaves me to believe that the poster is not in a meaningful relationship at the moment, and I respect his stance. But I have to wonder how adamant he'd be if the right girl came along and tugged his heartstrings the right way while also getting the little (lower) head to start doing more of the thinking. It's easy to be cold and completely rational when there's no emotional involvement, but we've all seen rock-solid souls turn to blubber when the right little lady enters the scene.

Anyway, I'm with many of the old fashioned types on this forum who don't like or agree with sin sot, so I wish the original poster all the best and would be curious to hear how well he sticks to his guns when (or if) the love of his life comes along.

[mca]

YES sin sot IS a thai tradition.

BUT it is an outdated, backward tradition.

CHOOSE: educate uneducated people, or let uneducated people dis-educate you.

what more can be said about the subject?

I'm sure practically the entire nation of Thailand will be thrilled to hear that they're uneducated.

Edited January 20, 2011 by mca

[kropotkin]

The way that the first entry is written leaves me to believe that the poster is not in a meaningful relationship at the moment, and I respect his stance. But I have to wonder how adamant he'd be if the right girl came along and tugged his heartstrings the right way while also getting the little (lower) head to start doing more of the thinking. It's easy to be cold and completely rational when there's no emotional involvement, but we've all seen rock-solid souls turn to blubber when the right little lady enters the scene.

Anyway, I'm with many of the old fashioned types on this forum who don't like or agree with sin sot, so I wish the original poster all the best and would be curious to hear how well he sticks to his guns when (or if) the love of his life comes along.

We should all man up, and stick to our guns.....

I did, and i am happily married now.

Father asked for 5.000 euro sinsod - yes, correct, euro.

I said i can not do that, it is against my culture. But i solemly promise that i will be a responsibull husband.

It is not unlike taking a taxi..... many will try to take advantage of you, but stand your ground, and they will respect you.

[kropotkin]

YES sin sot IS a thai tradition.

BUT it is an outdated, backward tradition.

CHOOSE: educate uneducated people, or let uneducated people dis-educate you.

what more can be said about the subject?

I'm sure practically the entire nation of Thailand will be thrilled to hear that they're uneducated.

Not my problem.

I repeat: sinsod is an outdated backward tradition.

If you want to go native, no problem.

I will defenitely not.

I believe in multi culturalism, not in surrendering.

In other cultures I accept some things and reject other things.

I am very critical of my own european culture - therefore i have the right to be critical of other cultures too.

[Tolley]

In the majority of cases that i have heard of involving Farangs the sin sod is such a small amount of money that it would not even cover a simple wedding reception in most western countries.

Quite frankly for a couple of hundred thousand baht the majority of westerners are not being principled but just showing how kee niow they really are.

[mca]

^^It's not a case of going native or not. Comes across as rather condescending that just because there's something you don't agree with then the other people need " educating" as it were.

Edited January 20, 2011 by mca