German Sentenced To Death Over Murder Of Swiss

[DaveYo]

Someone quoted here saying its either you get killed or you have to kill another to survive. The point here is everyone wants to live like it or not, but when one is confronted of having to make a choice in a matter mere seconds of time, it then becomes a battle of which two people each having enough energy to kill, and that survival instincts kick in.

Now say someone comes upon me and strikes me with a piece of wood and I am groggy from such hit, yet concious enough to see that a second hit is coming and I scramble to find something to defend myself and the weapon say it is a gun and I shoot him in the head. Does that make me a killer?????????? Well some people say yes and some say no.

Bottom line is I will kill if attacked or provoked enough that I believe that my life is in danger, and will do so for me to survive and be able to see the next day whether or not it is against the law. Period.

The same applies to anyone else who also gets into danger. We have enough psychopaths out there to deal with and this crap is the last thing I need coming into my life or affairs.

My two cents .

[The_Moog]

Thanks for that insight into your repressed bloodlust Dave.

We didn't need to know any of that, but thanks for sharing.

[DaveYo]

Thanks for that insight into your repressed bloodlust Dave.

We didn't need to know any of that, but thanks for sharing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Moog, even you will do the same thing to do whatever it takes to survive and to live. It is perhaps you have not been put into such situation as of yet and the same to many others, but to some yes they encountered such a situation, and were forced to do whatever it takes to survive and they did kill to eliminate that threat.

We all want to live and we all want to survive. It just so happens in the real life and in the real world there are some people who don't give a crap about you and would rather kill you just to get you out of their way in their quest for whatever reason it may be or objective.

Example : War conflict. You got two soldiers on opposite sides, who will kill. What you gonna do when you see that person in front of you taking aim at your physical presence and soon going to pull the trigger to send a bullet going faster than the speed of sound right smack at you that can kill you? You won't even have time to say Whoa. Your instinct will take over instantly and you will do the very same and try to pop them.

And yes that bullet is faster than the speed of sound. By the time you hear the sound of the gun going off, that bullet has either already hit you or went by you as a miss. You can bet on that buddy.

Does this make you a killer or not.

Just a thought.

Edited September 2, 2005 by DaveYo

[The_Moog]

And yes that bullet is faster than the speed of sound. By the time you hear the sound of the gun going off, that bullet has either already hit you or went by you as a miss. You can bet on that buddy.

Yes bullets travel faster than the speed of sound, but not faster than the speed of light.

If you can see it, you can avoid it, you have to arc yourself backwards and the bullets fly harmlessly past your chin.

I have seen it being done, I can't recall where. Its like you're so focused, so 'in the moment' time feels like it slows down and you can do it, must be the adrenalin or something.

Edited September 2, 2005 by The_Moog

[The_Moog]

Just remembered.

'The Matrix'

[chuchok]

And yes that bullet is faster than the speed of sound. By the time you hear the sound of the gun going off, that bullet has either already hit you or went by you as a miss. You can bet on that buddy.

Yes bullets travel faster than the speed of sound, but not faster than the speed of light.

If you can see it, you can avoid it, you have to arc yourself backwards and the bullets fly harmlessly past your chin.

I have seen it being done, I can't recall where. Its like you're so focused, so 'in the moment' time feels like it slows down and you can do it, must be the adrenalin or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This happens to me all the time,except it's not bullets i'm avoiding,but small vases , cups and the like. It normally happens when I come home very late and am very, very drunk.As the objects are traveling towards me I slow down the time-space continuium thingy and manage to avoid thes objects with great skill.I should write a movie script about this part.Maybe it will catch on.

[DaveYo]

And yes that bullet is faster than the speed of sound. By the time you hear the sound of the gun going off, that bullet has either already hit you or went by you as a miss. You can bet on that buddy.

Yes bullets travel faster than the speed of sound, but not faster than the speed of light.

If you can see it, you can avoid it, you have to arc yourself backwards and the bullets fly harmlessly past your chin.

I have seen it being done, I can't recall where. Its like you're so focused, so 'in the moment' time feels like it slows down and you can do it, must be the adrenalin or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It may be possible to avoid a bullet or of what you have said seen such done. I have heard tales from those involved in Ninja and one can time it precisely just when that trigger is pulled and one being able to move fast enough to let that bullet fly past you. In short only a very few around the world can achieve that incredible performance.

As to the German, it seems to have many questions concerning the crime and of its findings to conviction. I noticed on the picture shown of him with that police officer, something is amiss there, because that is a tactical police officer walking with him, and his face shows something like something serious is behind the scenes regarding his arrest.

Also those arrested here in Thailand it is sort of noted that if you plead guilty, they are more lenient towards you, but if you fight them or their system and say not guilty, they throw the bricks at you because they hate to lose face and will set it up so you get that guilty verdict and the highest sentence possible.

I have seen Thai people really bow down to the police officers at their stations, and really are very submissive to them. I still wonder why?????

Anyway I think everyone wants to know the official findings of cause of death!!!! So why doesn't the German Embassy send some people to do the autopsy of the victim now in Swiss. Why the Thai authorities want to hide that answer is beyond me, and also deny his attorney the important info needed for his defense.

All this makes no sense.

[The_Moog]

It may be possible to avoid a bullet or of what you have said seen such done. I have heard tales from those involved in Ninja and one can time it precisely just when that trigger is pulled and one being able to move fast enough to let that bullet fly past you. In short only a very few around the world can achieve that incredible performance.

It used to be called 'ducking'.

Ninjitsu skills would help, but its basically luck - in that case the assassin simply shoots too high. i.e misses.

You have 2 choices, you make yourself into a tiny target, or you bob from side to side- always moving, flittering around. Hard to hit.

[chico]

this is a (short version) translation of an article from "TIP", last year. october, 25, 2004:

Gordon Koschwits, 33, german, was living in Chiang Mai for 4 years, manager of a brick company called Goodstone, his subtenant Raffael Baumann, 32, swiss, drugaddict (his sister is said to have paid 20.000 swiss franks for his drug rehab) on october 10th, between 7.45 and 8.30 am Koschwitz is accused to have the swiss guy first beaten to death, then strangled with his hands, and finally strangled with a line.

according to Koschwits (on the phone to the autor of this) police is varying the story and also the time, when the found out him having an alibi for that time.

Mr. Kittisat, Koschwitz lawyer, could not confim this, as we was not yet alllowed to see the files.

october 5th, the house of Koschwitz was burning - arson on two places, he himself was burned on hands and feet and could hardly walk on october 10th.

arson and murder could be a revenge act from a thai lady, which he allegedly did not pay good enough ( it appears that this means his former girlfriend, which he finished some time before, because she ws asking too much money) she is said to have been talking about him due to die.

Mr. Kittisat (Koschwitz lawyer) mentions, that Bauman has made advances to the wife of a nearby living painter, and that the painter knew about it.

people saw the painter the evening before the murder trinking heavily with friends and being very agitated. jelousy cannot be excluded, as well as for the arson.

the swiss guy lived only a short period in the germans house, they didn't have much contact, never any fight, german was well liked, swiss guy a slimmy git, according to neighbours.

Kosachwitz tells his arrest as follows:

that morning, the painter - who was charged with renovating the house - called the german guy to the scene of the crime

<according to a german newspaper, the post mortem examination, made in switzerland, could not exclude a overdosis of heroin!!, thats from another article, just to mention it!>

the painter patched the swiss guy a few times on the shoulder, then turned his head and saw some blood underneath. the victim had a little cut above the right eye, which, in a fight, could only have been made by a lefthander - Koschwitz is righthander.

Koschwitz called the police -about 70 police men appeared on the scene ? why that many?

Koschwitz was arrested and asked if he committed themurder, after his denial, police said, they would prove it to him later.

they wanted to bring him to the main jail, where probably a little accident could have happened

<I have to mention, which is said later in this article, and known from others, that Koschwitz, before he started his business, was civil employee if the thai police, fighting drugs - in this position he had denounced and brought to jail several people in the area, and had to denounce some involved police too>

on intervention of the german embassy he was brought to a safer place, police sttion Sankapaeng, Chiang Mai, where he still is (oct 25th, 2004!!)

when arresting him, polie wanted his police id, bu this is in the hands of his lawyers, (and was seen by this autor)

According to Koschwitz, during investigations on the crime scene, thelittle bit of blood got bigger and bigger

accordin to Koschwitz (sustained by his lawyer) a high police guy could be personally involved in this case,as it looks that he wanted to get a promotion for clearing this case immediately and perfectly, and as they did not have any prove, the order came, to save the face of the boss and find proves.

Maybe Koschwitz had some info about this man from his counterdrug investigations, but they where taken away by police.

the man in charge of the investigation ids the new boyfriend of Koschwitz former girlfriend, she always was at the investigations!

that's a short version of the article, but it contains all main points

Up to everyone, what he thinks about it, but I would like to hear from those who want this guy executed, if they dare say "sentence beyond doubt" and uphold their point of vue.

[freedom-belg]

The death sentence is always inappropriate, it is uncivilized! It does not solve anything and this type of rather primitive ultimate revenge is not the proper way to go! This goes for any crime including child abusers, drug traffickers, murderers, corrupt politicians etc. I am happy that one of the conditions to become a member country of the European Common Market is the total abolishment of the death penalty.

Imagine what it really is. It is some people in power - physical - tie someone up and then kill him in various ways (humans are excellent in thinking up ideas for this bizarre ritual). How humiliating for the executors. They don’t even have to fight to get the result they want except with their conscience which they probably don't have . . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

perhaps it is not inappropriate to send criminals to the death penalty,but it SOLVE the problem.

If criminals don't have to be scared for the law,then they will keep living in crime.

Now they will think twice befor they comit a crime

[Sangsom]

perhaps it is not inappropriate to send criminals to the death penalty,but it SOLVE the problem.

If criminals don't have to be scared for the law,then they will keep living in crime.

Now they will think twice befor they comit a crime

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The more people express their feelings in favour of the death penalty the more I get convinced it is wrong. Reason is that none of these people has brought forward anything sensible except some revengeous cry outs.

In most civilised nations the punishment for a crime is not or not solely based on revenge but on correcting the person or protecting society. Often prisons are called correctional institutes ... I am afraid however that this correctional part does not really work that great! As a Portugese judge (friend) once said to me "no one has ever left prison after some years as a better person".

It has never been proven that the fear/risk of the death penalty has people make think twice to commit certain crimes. There is no difference with or without this ultime (and primitive) punishment in the number of murders, rapes or drug trafficking. Especially when lots of "easy" money are to be gained people will continue to take the risks for granted regardless whatever those risks may be.

Edited September 3, 2005 by Sangsom

[Rumpole]

Koschwitz called the police -about 70 police men appeared on the scene ? why that many?

<I have to mention, which is said later in this article, and known from others, that Koschwitz, before he started his business, was civil employee if the thai police, fighting drugs - in this position he had denounced and brought to jail several people in the area, and had to denounce some involved police too>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The plot thickens.

[IsaanAlex]

You've humbled me Sriracha John. My apologies.

[Take a pic of the above line as it doesn't happen often , hehe].

I thought for some reason that this pic of the German was at his arrest-I didn't consider it could have been taken after 10 months in jail.

And jail in Thailand will tend to age one. I had an aquantance in one of Bangkoks main prisons and he loooked like shit after 8 months.

We can agree that the situation reeks. Even moreso with the additional info posted on thsi thread.

All of the above aside, he does now look like a junkie. I've spent plenty of time on Vancouvers Downtoen Eastside with junkies and they have a certain look about them.

And, as I mentioned before, drugs are rife in Chiang Mais prisons. I spoke to an Austalian in a jail in Chiang Mai a few years ago and he said he never saw drugs in Thailand until he got into a Thai prison; that's because the jailers traffick it. And provide it to the prisoners as well...

IA

[meemiathai]

It has never been proven that the fear/risk of the death penalty has people make think twice to commit certain crimes. There is no difference with or without this ultime (and primitive) punishment in the number of murders, rapes or drug trafficking. Especially when lots of "easy" money are to be gained people will continue to take the risks for granted regardless whatever those risks may be.

Yes indeed! There is a difference! I am one proof! Tell me if it's 5 yrs in jail I will certainly kill someone I really hate!

What is your solution then? Lock them up forever? Is that any better? What is the use to correct them if they are going to spend their whole lives in jail? Is that fair to the tax-payers? The ones who obey the law?

What if someone rapes the wife?(no offense) Send him to jail a few yrs and let him out so he would come back and rape the daughter? Think of it seriously pls!

[meemiathai]

In most civilised nations the punishment for a crime is not or not solely based on revenge but on correcting the person or protecting society. Often prisons are called correctional institutes ...

You are too frickin idealistic! There are people on earth who will never be corrected. Or maybe takes some hundreds of lives to make them learn. It's their frickin brains. The structure of their brains. not being able to control themselves.

[Sangsom]

Yes indeed! There is a difference! I am one proof! Tell me if it's 5 yrs in jail I will certainly kill someone I really hate!

[...]

You are too frickin idealistic!  There are people on earth who will never be corrected.  Or maybe takes some hundreds of lives to make them learn.  It's their frickin brains.  The structure of their brains.  not being able to control themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I rest my case. Just one remark: It seems to me that you are one of those "people on earth that never will be corrected". Stating that if murder would cost just 5 years you would not hesitate to commit one is very frightening! You more or less admit this way to be a very dangerous person!

[raro]

what do the above have in common???

The preceeding is a list of notable personalities who have been or are believed to have been addicted to heroin (or other opiates including prescription painkillers or tranquilizers) at some point during their lives.

Now then, what's this nonsense about how he "looks" like a heroin addict???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you forgot most of the members of the Rock'n'Roll Hall of fame...whereas Keith really looks like an ex-junkie...

[raro]

Now say someone comes upon me and strikes me with a piece of wood and I am groggy from such hit, yet concious enough to see that a second hit is coming and I scramble to find something to defend myself and the weapon say it is a gun and I shoot him in the head.  Does that make me a killer??????????  Well some people say yes and some say no.

My two cents .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tha's called self-defense and is as to my knowledge covered by the law of any civilized and even most not-so-civilized countries.

Talking about civilization: Is there any civilized country (with the exception of Thailand of course...) that applies the death penalty?

[Scott]

I guess there are no civilized countries that administer the death penalty -- if your criteria for defining civilized is not having the death penalty.

I am not in favor of the death penalty and never have been. I agree that until there is a fail-proof legal system, it's not a good idea. Once we advance to the point of a fail-proof legal system, then hopefully everyone will have advanced to the point of not wanting to kill others and to the point where we will be able to treat/rehabilitate all these folks.

All that said, can you name one country that did away with the death penalty by popular vote?

[meemiathai]

Yes indeed! There is a difference! I am one proof! Tell me if it's 5 yrs in jail I will certainly kill someone I really hate!

[...]

You are too frickin idealistic!  There are people on earth who will never be corrected.  Or maybe takes some hundreds of lives to make them learn.  It's their frickin brains.  The structure of their brains.  not being able to control themselves.

I rest my case. Just one remark: It seems to me that you are one of those "people on earth that never will be corrected". Stating that if murder would cost just 5 years you would not hesitate to commit one is very frightening! You more or less admit this way to be a very dangerous person!

Let me tell you, there are no laws governing the killing of insects. But I don't kill an ant, a fly or a cockroach in my house. I normally just chase them away. Not sure if I am considered dangerous to them(those insects), but I can honestly assure that there are people on this earth that I could kill without regret.

[Eddie67]

I do agree that some really bad induviduals does not have the right to live; the ones that makes other live a living ######.

Problem is only, there has to be a 100 % prof of guilt.

I do not know the Thai legal system personally, but I have wathed the Thai Police in action at several occations, and the latest was last sunday at the CM sunday-marked:

A band was playing at the stage, and there was a lot a lot of noise coming out from the speakers. The noise was coming because it was a electric shortcut just where I was sitting, sparks coming out from the cord lying on the ground. A Police Officer also noticing theese sparks, and after a time of concideration of what to do with this situation, he put an empty food box to cover it.

He then seriously declared "danger, maybe accident".

.. Anyway he did something .. So he kept his FACE.

....... and 2 minutes later the garbage-pickup-man arrived .......

And reading the articles above, it doesent convice me at all.

[Totster]

Let me tell you, there are no laws governing the killing of insects.  But I don't kill an ant, a fly or a cockroach in my house.  I normally just chase them away.  Not sure if I am considered dangerous to them(those insects), but I can honestly assure that there are people on this earth that I could kill without regret.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you chase an ant away...?

totster

[meemiathai]

Let me tell you, there are no laws governing the killing of insects.  But I don't kill an ant, a fly or a cockroach in my house.  I normally just chase them away.  Not sure if I am considered dangerous to them(those insects), but I can honestly assure that there are people on this earth that I could kill without regret.

How do you chase an ant away...?

totster

With a machete of course!

[meemiathai]

I do agree that some really bad induviduals does not have the right to live;  the ones that makes other live a living ######.

Problem is only, there has to be a 100 % prof of guilt.

I do not know the Thai legal system personally, but I have wathed the Thai Police in action at several occations, and the latest was last sunday at the CM sunday-marked:

A band was playing at the stage, and there was a lot a lot of noise coming out from the speakers. The noise was coming because it was a electric shortcut just where I was sitting, sparks coming out from the cord lying on the ground. A Police Officer also noticing theese sparks, and after a time of concideration of what to do with this situation, he put an empty food box to cover it.

He then seriously declared "danger, maybe accident".

.. Anyway he did something .. So he kept his FACE.

....... and 2 minutes later the garbage-pickup-man arrived .......

And reading the articles above, it doesent convice me at all.

Never anything is going to be 100%. Even when seeing it with your own eyes.

But actually, I would like to confess, I don't really know what I am talking about.

It is a decision(death penalty or not) I am not capable of making.

I do not disagree with it neither do I agree.

Sorry guys, what a load of BS!

[Rinrada]

Worth Considering

Physical Castration for Violent Criminals

Here's a simple, inexpensive solution to decrease violent crime, prison overcrowding, prison rape, pedophilia, predatory catholic priests and the spread of sexually transmitted disease: physical castration on the second conviction for any violent crime outside prision or on the first conviction inside prision or on the first conviction of any pedophile.

Rape in prision leads directly to the spread of AIDS and HIV outside prison as the convicts are released. Curing the root of the problem will have many beneficial effects for society inside and outside of our prisions.

I've been told by a Danish coworker that some of the Scandinavian countries physically castrate males convicted multiple times for rape and that after castration, the recidivism rate of those castrated rapists drops to less than one percent.

Horses and cows are routinely castrated in order to make them less aggressive and it works.

Some might argue that physical castration is cruel and unusual but if the extreme animal rights activists aren't concerned about animal castration then it can't possibly be cruel.

Some communities in America perform court-ordered chemical castration of violent convicts. Chemical castration is ridiculous - as soon as the convict stops taking the hormone shots, he's back to his old self. In addition, chemical castration is much more expensive for the government to administer and far less reliable. But, the real point is - if chemical castration is okay, why not physical castration?One possible way to introduce physical castration is to offer early probation for convicts that agree to be castrated. This way, it's not forced on anyone and we can begin to collect data on the results. Interviews with castrated convicts might even reveal they are much happier in life after castration.

The bottom line is, physical castration will solve a lot of our crime problems and our sexually transmitted disease problems and I truly believe the violent offenders themselves will be much happier for the rest of their lives once their testicles are removed and no longer pumping aggressive testosterone into their bloodstream. And as a side benefit, they'll cure their hair loss and they won't be fathering new hereditary criminals.

[sriracha john]

You've humbled me Sriracha John. My apologies.

[Take a pic of the above line as it doesn't happen often , hehe].

mai pen rai... we ALL jump to conclusions at times. Good that you're big enough to realize you might have done so in this situation.

I thought for some reason that this pic of the German was at his arrest-I didn't consider it could have been taken after 10 months in jail.

And jail in Thailand will tend to age one. I had an aquantance in one of Bangkoks main prisons and he loooked like shit after 8 months.

We can agree that the situation reeks. Even moreso with the additional info posted on thsi thread.

Yes...even more intrigue now with the involvement of this "painter", the 70 policemen responding, the possibility of a heroin OD by the victim, etc etc.

All of the above aside, he does now look like a junkie. I've spent plenty of time on Vancouvers Downtoen Eastside with junkies and they have a certain look about them.

And, as I mentioned before, drugs are rife in Chiang Mais prisons. I spoke to an Austalian in a jail in Chiang Mai a few years ago and he said he never saw drugs in Thailand until he got into a Thai prison; that's because the jailers traffick it. And provide it to the prisoners as well...

That is true that heroin is available in prison, BUT there are all host of other possibilities that can account for his appearance. Chronic lack of sleep, living in an abysmally over-crowded environment, a horrendous diet, unimaginable stress from exposure to living in a hellhole for 10 months... all the above can lower one's resistance and can lead to any number of illnesses and maladies that could easily explain his appearance... Once again, don't be too quick to jump on heroin as the explanation. It is only one possibility among dozens.

Edited September 4, 2005 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

what do the above have in common???

The preceeding is a list of notable personalities who have been or are believed to have been addicted to heroin (or other opiates including prescription painkillers or tranquilizers) at some point during their lives.

Now then, what's this nonsense about how he "looks" like a heroin addict???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you forgot most of the members of the Rock'n'Roll Hall of fame...whereas Keith really looks like an ex-junkie...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I purposely omitted those that one might "expect" to have a drug history and instead listed those that didn't fit the typical, stereo-type profile... to highlight that appearance or occupation alone is not a sensible way to determine addiction. I imagine that many, besides myself, were surprised by the inclusion of some of the individuals.

[meemiathai]

Worth Considering

Physical Castration for Violent Criminals

Here's a simple, inexpensive solution to decrease violent crime, prison overcrowding, prison rape, pedophilia, predatory catholic priests and the spread of sexually transmitted disease: physical castration on the second conviction for any violent crime outside prision or on the first conviction inside prision or on the first conviction of any pedophile.

Rape in prision leads directly to the spread of AIDS and HIV outside prison as the convicts are released. Curing the root of the problem will have many beneficial effects for society inside and outside of our prisions.

I've been told by a Danish coworker that some of the Scandinavian countries physically castrate males convicted multiple times for rape and that after castration, the recidivism rate of those castrated rapists drops to less than one percent.

Horses and cows are routinely castrated in order to make them less aggressive and it works.

Some might argue that physical castration is cruel and unusual but if the extreme animal rights activists aren't concerned about animal castration then it can't possibly be cruel.

Some communities in America perform court-ordered chemical castration of violent convicts. Chemical castration is ridiculous - as soon as the convict stops taking the hormone shots, he's back to his old self. In addition, chemical castration is much more expensive for the government to administer and far less reliable. But, the real point is - if chemical castration is okay, why not physical castration?One possible way to introduce physical castration is to offer early probation for convicts that agree to be castrated. This way, it's not forced on anyone and we can begin to collect data on the results. Interviews with castrated convicts might even reveal they are much happier in life after castration.

The bottom line is, physical castration will solve a lot of our crime problems and our sexually transmitted disease problems and I truly believe the violent offenders themselves will be much happier for the rest of their lives once their testicles are removed and no longer pumping aggressive testosterone into their bloodstream. And as a side benefit, they'll cure their hair loss and they won't be fathering new hereditary criminals.

Sounds good.

[Totster]

Let me tell you, there are no laws governing the killing of insects.  But I don't kill an ant, a fly or a cockroach in my house.  I normally just chase them away.  Not sure if I am considered dangerous to them(those insects), but I can honestly assure that there are people on this earth that I could kill without regret.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you chase an ant away...?

totster

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With a machete of course!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

totster

[chico]

Let me tell you, there are no laws governing the killing of insects.  But I don't kill an ant, a fly or a cockroach in my house.  I normally just chase them away.  Not sure if I am considered dangerous to them(those insects), but I can honestly assure that there are people on this earth that I could kill without regret.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not really see what animals like flies or ants have in common with people?

apart from me thinking that it appears to be a little bit difficult to get rid of ants by chasing them.

but your post before frigthens me :

if your saying "if it's 5 years in prison then I seriously will kill someone I really hate" - I have two options :

one: I take it as an enormous exaggeration to express that you really are upset about someone, but don't really mean to kill - this I can understand and accept

two : if you literally mean what you say, then you are extremely dangerous and

precautions should be taken to stop you before you can hurt someone.