Bacteria In Throat

[Riley'sLife]

A French lady friend in Vietnam has a problem that she describes as Bacteria in her Tonsillar Crypts. Luverly!.. Anyway she has a problem in sourcing a powered spray unit that, I guess, is similar to that used by a dentist to clean debris from the mouth. A sort of stainless steel tube that squirts a fine spray of water/antibacterial liquid into the mouth under pressure. This is used to dislodge the bacteria which form in her tonsills. She has asked me to try and find one in Bkk. I have asked around, and a doc at Lard Phroa Hospital ENT has confirmed that he has seen this unit in USA but never in LOS. Anyone know where to look in Bkk? I could get one from USA for her if I knew where to contact. I suggested she try to find a car wash and ask them to give her a squirt with their lance, but she wasn't amused! Any help appreciated

[chownah]

I can't help with your exact question but I can offer some alternative advice although few people choose to follow it. Yogic cleaning practices include a way to clean exactly the throat region in general...it is done by rubbing the area with your index finger...this will caue two things to happen...it will activate the gag reflex...and it will stimulate the production of mucus. This is very effective at cleansing the area in question...but...most people avoid self infliction of the gag reflex because it is not pleasant especially at first. If this is done on a daily basis, however, it quickly becomes a routine matter and the unpleasantness disappears entirely.

This technique is part of a regimen often called a "half bath" which includes cleaning the eyes, nose and nasal passages, and throat. A very refreshing and healthy habit.

[Riley'sLife]

Many thanks Chownah. I will pass on the information. In fact this could well prove to be the ideal solution to her problem as electrics/batteries are not required and she is working for an NGO in remote parts of SE Asia. Cheers, Rick

ps do you know how this problem has been caused? She has been told that it is from particles of food that have become lodged in the crypts and is quite common in rice eating countries. I've never heard of it. I have only ever exerienced a strep throat which is bacterial, but entirely different and can be treated with anti-biotics of course. Her problem cannot. She says that the treatment is either removal of the bacteria daily, or a tonsillectomy, or cauterisation of the crypts.

[taxexile]

rubbing the area with a finger will only serve to inflame the area more , and insinuate the bacteria further.

what exactly are the symptoms that this bacterial invasion is causing.

if it is a full blown tonsilitis , then antibiotics will be necessary.

repeated gargles with salt water , as hot as she can bear it , is a remedy for oral and pharyngeal inflammations.

the use of an atomiser , such as a perfume atomiser , to spray the hot salt water into the throat may help.

if such ailments are common in these parts of the world , then she seek out a local remedy , there is bound to be one.

[chownah]

I disagree with taxexiles expectations about using the finger.

Food lodging in 'crypts' (I've never heard the word used this way before) happens to me too...a true story....At the age of 18 I ate my first hominy and never ate it again until one year later at the age of 19 I coughed violently and coughed out a piece of hominy. Food can lodge in recesses in the throat and of course bacteria does grow on it....it turns out that this is more common than you would think and that many people who are susceptible to this don't know it...it happens in varying degrees to various people.

The technique I mentioned has been used by millions of people over probably a couple of thousands of years I guess. In the meditation group where I learned about this technique were hundreds of people who learned this technique and to the best of my knowledge no one had a bad reaction from it...on the contrary people claimed that it helped shorten the duration of upper resperatory illnesses like colds and flue and especially sore throats...also less bad breath....but I relate this not to convince anyone that it works since most of these people were willing to say that whatever they were learning was working whether there was much evidence of this or not.....but I do mention it here to show that it is at least basically harmless and I personally can attest to the fact that for long term food stuck in throat syndrome it has worked very well for me over the years and I have not detected any bad reactions from it.

For even better results you can also do the 'nasapan' routine which includes sucking water up through the nostrils and into the throat which you then spit out. My advice is find a yogic teacher to find out exactly how to do this...its not so hard to do but I could not possibly teach you how to do it over the internet. I used to be a forest fire fighter and I would do the finger sweep followed by the nasapan routine after fighting a fire and it was WONDERFUL....cleaned large quantities of black stuff out of my sinus and throat.

This is not a hoax or some new age thing....it is a time tested yogic practice and has been done and is being done by millions of people.

Edited September 3, 2005 by chownah

[chuchok]

I disagree with taxexiles expectations about using the finger.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really...Tax is a dentist....He might just know a bit old son.

other wise, gargle with salt and water...one of natures old remedies.

[taxexile]

chownah , i dont doubt that what you say about nasal lavage and yogic cleaning are true

but...... and if you look at the anatomy of the pharynx , and the tonsillar region , especially the crypts , as they are correctly called , you will see that far from freeing food debris lodged in those areas , finger pressure will only serve to make matters worse. if you are doing it to yourself you cant see where you are poking about , and you certainly cannot get a finger deep into a tonsillar crypt , so other than just pushing more bacteria into those crypts , you are not doing anything that can remotely be considered therapeutic.

if the area is already inflamed then finger pressure will probably do more harm than good. finger pressure on the smoother mucosal surfaces of the pharynx will do no harm , but poking around in the convoluted spongy mass of the tonsils with bacterial laden fingers is not the answer i'm afraid.

if this person is regularly suffering from this problem with her tonsils , then perhaps a visit to an e.n.t. clinic is called for.

[chownah]

chownah , i dont doubt that what you say about nasal lavage and yogic cleaning are true

but...... and if you look at the anatomy of the pharynx , and the tonsillar region , especially the crypts , as they are correctly called , you will see that far from freeing food debris lodged in those areas , finger pressure will only serve to make matters worse. if you are doing it to yourself you cant see where you are poking about , and you certainly cannot get a finger deep into a tonsillar crypt , so other than just pushing more bacteria into those crypts , you are not doing anything that can remotely be considered therapeutic.

if the area is already inflamed then finger pressure will probably do more harm than good. finger pressure on the smoother mucosal surfaces of the pharynx will do no harm , but poking around in the convoluted spongy mass of the tonsils with bacterial laden fingers is not the answer i'm afraid.

if this person is regularly suffering from this problem with her tonsils , then perhaps a visit to an e.n.t. clinic is called for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great, a chance for me to learn something. Some people have this problem and some do not, can you explain why?...what is the mechanism? I'm truly interested in learning here and I'm not wanting to argue...maybe you know of a web site that talks about this.

[taxexile]

if you mean the problem of trapped food particles in the tonsillar crypts , well i'd never heard of it until i read this topic.

if you look at the anatomy of the tonsils , then you can see that it is possible for food debris to get lodged in the folds and creases.

if they remain there long enough , then its possible that they cause some inflammation to the tissues , and if there are pathogenic bacteria present then an infection will result. but unless you physically clean out every square millimeter of tonsillar surface , there is no guarantee that you will remove the particles.

it sounds like she should really have her tonsils removed.

other than that i have no answers.

[taxexile]

Chronic infections of the tonsils or throat

Causes

Symptoms

Diagnosis

Treatment options

Tonsillitis, strep throat, sore throat…these terms are often used together, but how are they related?

A persistent sore throat is generally a symptom of something else—usually a virus or bacteria infecting part of the upper respiratory tract (mouth, nose and throat). Having a sore throat doesn't necessarily mean that you or your child has strep throat or infected tonsils. And having a sore throat or being diagnosed with strep throat doesn't necessarily mean that your tonsils are infected, too. It can be very confusing!

Tonsils act as part of the body's immune system to filter germs, bacteria and viruses when they enter the body through the nose and mouth. Sometimes the tonsils themselves can become infected or inflamed, a condition known as tonsillitis. Chronic or recurring tonsillitis is a common reason for children and adults to have their tonsils removed, a procedure known as a tonsillectomy.

When tonsillitis is present, the surrounding throat area often becomes infected at the same time (pharyngitis). "Strep throat" is the common name for a particular type of bacterial infection in the throat caused by the streptococcus pyogenes bacteria. Chronic or recurring strep throat infections are another reason the tonsils are sometimes removed, though this happens less frequently today than it did 20 years ago.

In some patients, chronic tonsil infections and enlarged tonsils can lead to a condition called chronic cryptic tonsillitis. The tonsils contain many small pockets and infoldings called crypts, which can trap small food particles and other debris. This can produce small, white stone-like particles called tonsilliths, composed of bacteria and dead cells, which are foul-smelling, can prolong the infection, and may cause a mild, intermittent sore throat.

Causes

Tonsil and throat infections may be caused by either a virus or bacteria, and can be spread from one person to the other through coughing, sneezing and nasal fluids. In preschool children and infants, the common cold virus or flu virus often causes tonsillitis. In adults and adolescents, it is more likely to be caused by bacteria—the streptococcus, staphylocci, pneumococci, or hemophilus bacteria. In rare cases, the bacteria responsible for scarlet fever, diphtheria and mononucleosis can cause tonsillitis.

"Strep throat" is a particular type of bacterial infection in the throat caused by the streptococcus pyogenes bacteria. Tonsillitis, or inflamed tonsils, may or may not accompany a strep throat infection.

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Symptoms of tonsil and throat infections

Typical symptoms of tonsil and throat infections include:

Sore throat, mild to severe

Yellow or white coating on the tonsils

Swelling of the tonsils or throat

Redness of the tonsils or throat

Fever

Painful/difficult swallowing

Swollen lymph glands in the neck

Bad breath (halitosis)

It is important to seek medical attention for a persistent sore throat, even if it is not accompanied by a fever. Untreated tonsil or throat infections can lead to problems with the heart and kidneys, such as rheumatic fever. If tonsillitis is untreated, a condition called peritonsillar abscess can develop, in which swelling from the abscess can become large enough to obstruct the airway. The infection can also spread into the neck and chest and become fatal.

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Diagnosis

Different kinds of bacteria and viruses can cause throat infections or tonsillitis, so your (or your child's) doctor usually will want to test for the strep bacteria to make sure the appropriate treatment is given. Untreated strep throat can, in rare cases, result in rheumatic fever, a disease that damages the joints and heart.

To determine what is causing your tonsil or throat infection, the doctor will take a small sample of fluid from the back of your throat with a gentle swab. A quick test can indicate if strep bacteria are present, or if the infection is due to a virus.

If the test for strep throat is negative, your doctor may want to confirm this result by performing a 24-hour culture. In this test, your doctor will place a small sample of fluid from the back of your throat on a culture dish and leave it for 24 hours. If you have strep throat, the strep bacteria will usually grow on the culture dish within 24 hours.

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Treatment options

Tonsil and throat infections are treated with symptom-relieving measures to make the patient feel better, and where appropriate, medications to combat the infection. Salt-water gargles, increased fluid intake, anti-inflammatory medications, and rest can help lessen the severity of the symptoms.

Antibiotics—antibacterial agents—are used to treat tonsil or throat infections caused by bacteria, but they have no effect if used to treat infections caused by a virus, and can even be harmful.

Occasionally, the tonsils and/or adenoids may become so inflamed and swollen that they interfere with swallowing. In this case, hospitalization and intravenous fluids may be required.

Chronic cryptic tonsillitis is sometimes treated with antibiotics, but this is usually only helpful temporarily. Some mechanical methods, such as picks and swabs, may be used also, but the only permanent cure is a tonsillectomy. Not everyone with chronic cryptic tonsillitis has symptoms severe enough to warrant surgery.If you or your child has chronic, recurring tonsil or throat infections despite medical treatment, a tonsillectomy may be advisable. General guidelines are:

Five or more episodes in one year

Three or more episodes per year for two years

Infections that do not respond to treatment

Since an infection can spread from the tonsils to the adenoids or vice versa, they are often removed together in the same operation, particularly in children. Your doctor (or your child's doctor) can determine the cause of your symptoms and the most appropriate treatment method.

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Edited September 4, 2005 by taxexile

[chownah]

Taxexile, thanks for the response.

To the OP, I would like to clarify that the action of using the finger in the throat should be a rubbing sweep on the tonsils and across/around the back of the throat region...trying to insert the finger into the crypts is not necessary but after someone becomes adept at this you can feel where your finger is in your throat and you can become more aggressive if it seems like this is helping.....the intent is to stimulate the production of mucus and to cause the gagging reaction...the mucus will lubricate the lodged food particles and the gagging will shake/vibrate the area so as to dislodge the particles.

Need I add that you should wash your hands thoroughly before doing this.

[taxexile]

To the OP, I would like to clarify that the action of using the finger in the throat should be a rubbing sweep on the tonsils and across/around the back of the throat region...trying to insert the finger into the crypts is not necessary but after someone becomes adept at this you can feel where your finger is in your throat and you can become more aggressive if it seems like this is helping.....the intent is to stimulate the production of mucus and to cause the gagging reaction...the mucus will lubricate the lodged food particles and the gagging will shake/vibrate the area so as to dislodge the particles.

Need I add that you should wash your hands thoroughly before doing this.

sorry , but rubbing a finger over the tonsils is unlikely to bring about any benefit.

rubbing the tonsils will only push the food deeper in.

a gag reaction may cause highly acidic stomach fluids to re-gurgitate up the oesophagus and damage the already fragile tonsillar surface.

if you want to increase the amount of fluid washing over the tonsils in an effort to possibly dislodge embedded particles , then use an antiseptic gargle such as hot saline solution and gargle vigorously.

[chownah]

The controversy as to whether to give your tonsils the finger or not rages on! Google found this:

Link: http://atoz.iqhealth.com/HealthAnswers/enc...files/2351.html

Which contains this:

"

In subacute tonsillitis caused by actinomyces, penicillin and clindamycin are effective. If these antibiotics do not work, the person can remove the infected material from the tonsil pits with a finger or special irrigating tool. Otherwise, the tonsils should be removed.

"

and also:

Link:http://www.medicinenet.com/adenoids_and_tonsils/page2.htm

Which contains this:

"

An abscess of the tonsil (peritonsillar abscess) should be drained either by removal of fluid with a needle and syringe (needle aspiration), cutting open with a scalpel (incision), or tonsillectomy. Chronic stones in the tonsil can be removed with a clean finger or with a blunt probe. Massive enlargement of the tonsils and adenoids causing airway obstruction may be treated with a long course of antibiotics, or even a brief course of steroids (cortisone related medications, such as prednisone and prednisolone).

"

and also:

Link:http://www.abchomeopathy.com/forum2.php/30542/

which contained this replying to someone who had used a syringe (probably without the needle) to squirt water on the tonsil to clear it of debris:

"

The water from the syringe is good but it will only take out the matter that is already out of the tonsil fossa. You can attempt to clear them more fully by inserting your washed finger over the tonsil and pressing each gently when you will notice that more matter which is very smelly is squeezed out.

"

This last one is from a homeopath...not my cup of tea but perhaps of interest anyway. I think thats enough for now. If you want you can probably find more...I googled "tonsil finger" and found these....I also googled "tonsil massage" and was surprised and amused at what I found...needless to say it was a different topic entirely!!!!!

Edited September 4, 2005 by chownah

[taxexile]

well if those quotes are from recognised medical information sites ( as opposed to forums and fringe medicine sites where the authors have little in the way of medical qualifications) then i stand corrected.

but on these pages the finger movement is aimed at actually locating and removing as opposed to merely rubbing over.

[chownah]

well if those quotes are from recognised medical information sites ( as opposed to forums and fringe medicine sites where the authors have little in the way of medical qualifications) then i stand corrected.

but on these pages the finger movement is aimed at actually locating and removing as opposed to merely rubbing over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As for the quality of the sites...I recommend anyone interested to go out and check them out and see if you think they are "fringe" or not...the last one, as I indicated in my post, was from a homeopath which I tend to think of as "fringe" but many others do not.

I think that the finger action used is not the only thing that cleans the tonsil's recesses, it is the stimulation of mucus secretion combined with the gag reflex as I mentioned previously. As to what kind of finger movements should be used, my opinion is that the problem of food lodged in the tonsil recesses varies from individual since the size and structure of tonsils varies alot between individuals as well as other factors. The type of finger movement and degree of exploration of the recesses will give varying degrees of cleaning. In one of my previous posts I suggested that as one becomes more adept at the technique that one could be more aggressive in the probing if it seemed to give results. Using the finger as an aid in clearing the tonsils is not meant to be an intervention used only when a problem occurs...it is meant to be a regular health practice. When practiced regularly a person will become more adept and achieve better results. I'm not claiming that this technique will solve every problem of this type but it definitely solves some people's problems....

Edited September 4, 2005 by chownah

[Riley'sLife]

Thanks all. Just to clarify the facts of her problem. This is not a strep throat. It is bacterial clumps collecting and growing within the tonsillar crypts originating from food debris. I asked her about symtoms: Halitosis and a sensation of something in her throat only. She is not ill, does not have an infection, nor has she had a fever. She originally took antibiotics but to no avail. She removes the bacteria daily, as she is extremely sensitive to the odour for others and gargles throughout the day, and is meticulous about her oral hygiene.

She has already taken medical advice and they have offered the following treatment options: Tonsilectomy, or, Cauterisation of the crypts (-presumably to seal off the crypt cavities), or, continue to remove the bacteria. She currently removes it by using a sterile stainless steel spatular.

She removes the bacteria by very gently rubbing the spatular in the areas of the many tonsillar crypts. However because of the various angles of the crypts relative to the oral cavity lining this is neither accurate nor comprehensive enough to remove all the bacteria, and she finds that her toungue gets in the way and she can't see what she is doing when she has to reach beyond the back of her tongue. She has been told that a better way is to use a mini-waterlance to squirt antibacterial mouth wash under pressure around the area to both wash and also more effectively remove the bacteria from the crypts. She says that the bacteria clumps can be quite large- up to 2 or 3 mm- and if she gets the spatular angle just right often the clumps just "pop out".I have been told by an ENT Surgeon here in Bangkok that such a device does exist and is available in the USA, but not in Asia. When I was in Toronto a couple of years ago I did see some battery operated plastic pressure water jet type of mouthwash equipment being sold as a way to remove plaque presumably, but I didn't take much notice about it. I don't think this is necessarily the equipment that the ENT specialist is referring to.

It seems to me that this may in fact be the prime reason for anyone to have halitosis, as she says that the smell of the bacteria, once it has been removed is, in her words "gut wrenching"!! Thank you so much for the informed reasoning applied by all to this topic. Any further observations, or more particularly information on this spray equipment suggested by the Thai ENT chap would be appreciated. Cheers

Rick

[taxexile]

there is an appliance called an oral irrigator , manufactured by a company called "water-pik" i think. it sits in the bathroom like an electric toothbrush.

oral-b possibly make one too.

it consists of a 750cc fillable reservoir and a pencil like attachment that is attached to the reservoir by a tube. turn it on , adjust the pressure and water spurts out in pulses.

its primary use is to clean and irrigate periodontal pockets (loose gaps between the gum and the tooth , food can get pushed into these areas).

the reservoir could be filled with saline or any antibiotic type liquid and the attachment is designed to get to hard to reach areas , the nozzle is about 1mm in diameter , the spray can be quite powerful.

this would be ideal for irrigating the tonsillar crypts , providing the pressure was not so high as to cause physical damage to the tissues there.

Edited September 4, 2005 by taxexile

[taxexile]

http://www.dentist.net/waterpik.asp?source...yword=water-pik

you'll find it there.

[chownah]

In the event that you have a difficult time getting a water pik to Vietnam, and in the mean time, a hypdermic syringe of the right size (without the needle) was mentioned on the internet as a way to clean the crypts....for sure these are available 'most everywhere in Vietnam and very cheap...any doctor or hospital or veterinary (vets have the larger sizes). A resourceful person might find a plastic tube of the right size to fit on the syringe to help in directing the spray into the crypt...voila...instant, cheap water pik substitute made from locally available materials....but probably not as effective as a water pik....except you could also suction using it which might be a giant improvement on the water pik...but of course, I suppose, that an inept person could theoretically cause some damage from suctioning this way....taxexile...what do you think of this idea?

Oh, Riley'slife, your friends symptoms sound exactly like mine except since I only used my finger to solve the problem I can not verify what the smell was like since when using a finger you don't retrieve any of the material for examination...also...is your friend very fussy about all bodily odors...in a very pronounced way?

Edited September 5, 2005 by chownah

[taxexile]

taxexile...what do you think of this idea?

necessity is the mother of invention.

[Riley'sLife]

-Thanks Taxexile and Chownah. I think the waterpik could be the answer for her. Reason she wants to get the problem sorted is that she is embarrassed as her breath smells and she has to work close up with people and is more concerned about their reaction than for her own health.

Thanks again guys. Cheers Rick

[bina]

"gag me with a spoon...!"